Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Yeager on November 28, 2007, 11:22:21 AM
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Was this thing really the vertical super fighter of its day, or is the AH flight model missing about 9000 pounds somewhere?
I have no facts or data on the actual flight envelope versus the AH flight model but man, what a looping SOB that baby is in game. Somehow the A20 seems to me to be out of step with the similar sized twin engined medium bombers represented in game.
I think I might actually try and super tard in this thing over the next few months.
Anyone have any insight on the AcesHigh A20 that I might be lacking, obviously?
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The most you wanna dive from is 7k ish. Any more than that and you risk ripping the wings off.
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The Me-110 used to be somewhat similar in that it was the most agile LW plane in the game.
I don't think that is the case anymore though.
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did HTC modify some paramerters on the 110 flight model? I come and go around these parts and sometimes miss out on this sort of info....
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Actually the A-20 isnt really all that good as a pure "looper" in my opinion. However it is without a doubt one of if not the best "E platform" in the game. It is severly limited in its true "top end" since you've got to be very careful with G loading over about 395 TAS....but it generates tremendous zoom at moderate speeds and is exceptionally stable thru the meat of the flight envelope. So going back to WW's "smooth is fast" the A-20 drive can get an awful lot out of the bird within its limits. But the A-20 fights best on the "X" and not in the "I". Using the pure vertical gives up alot of the A-20's edge in overall stability IMO...
It's the zoom (which is a function of weight to a degree) combined with the suprisingly high sustained climb (with WEP) and ability to hang on the prop at 60 mph or less with a very gentle stall and easy recovery that makes it so good in the "verticals"....
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Sounds about right humble, question is: Does the A20 FM have a serious discrepency in vertical performance when compared to other FMs of comparable machines in game?
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I dont think so...
It's not significantly better in the vertical then the 110 or mossie...
IMO its alot like those 3 and the 38. It's a much more pilot dependent ride then most planes since "zoom" isnt really easy to use well in the midgame of a fight. All 4 require a good feel for both zoom and the use of the vertical in low speed nose up obliques and reverses...
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I Can't imagine why it would zoom better than a Mossie or P-38. It has less power and is draggier while barely being heavier than a Mosquito, if at all when unladen.
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I dont know that it does zoom better then the mossie....its better then the 38 from an equal start but the 38 has more "potential E". The 110 and mossie are both tough fights for the A-20, any mistake and the A-20 just gets shredded since both have center mounted cannons.
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If I was going to zoom I'd do it in a Mossie. Its faster while level and to me zooms as good or better then the A-20. The 4 cannon and 4 0.50s in the nose is just brutal.
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Mossie has four Hispano 20mms and four .303s. No .50s.
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The A-20 seems to handle much better then the mossie does. The difference has lessened considerably with the FM changes but is still there IMO.
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Yep, the mossie is dogmeat compared to the A20. Now everyone knows, and we should see lots more A20s in the air for mossies to run away from.
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Somehow the A-20G just feels plodding to me and the Mossie does not. Mossie is not agile like a true fighter, but it certainly handles better than the A-20G in my experience.
Everytime I've met an A-20G in combat (rarely) I've thought "Free kill" and I have yet to be wrong.
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No question the mossie has a larger group of dedicated flyers. I rarely if ever lose a 1 on 1 to either a 110 or mossie but if either has an initial advantage in alt or E its tough sledding since any hit is normally crippling or fatal. The 110 and mossie are used alot in the attack role so overall pilot quality is very inconsistant the same as the A-20.
I've found that the good mossie drivers are very E aware and rarely get drawn into a turning fight with the A-20....basically they'll spray with the 20mm at any angle they can looking for hits or fire off the BB's at longer range to force the A-20 to break and then go vertical looking for a 20mm pass....
The 110's seem much more angle oriented and if you slip by the 1 shot window they're usually over commited and in trouble...
I think the A-20 is more stable and a better dog fighter then either but the tremendous differential in firepower negates that alot.
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I never turn with the A-20s I see. I always use my superior power and speed.
EDIT:
Even if I am flying a Spitfire MK VIII or Ki-84 I still don't turn with them.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mossie has four Hispano 20mms and four .303s. No .50s.
Did i say 0.50s? Yeah I did. Thanks for correcting me?
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Humble what are you smoking?! :lol
The A20 is a big slow target. It's dead meat vs. the mossie.
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The A-20 isnt dead meat vs anything. No question it's got easily exploitable shortcomings and alot of sheet metal but it doesnt go down very easily to anything. Most of the time if I give up the ghost quickly it's because I'm trying out something specific vs just trying to survive. I keep learning a bit more about the planes capabilities in the semi verticals and dragging a slow fight up...but at the expense of getting hammered badly while learning or when I push it to far.
The Mossie and the 110 both have a tremendous advantage in "potential E" since they dont shed stuff at 400 or so like the A-20 but IMO neither can furball with/like the A-20. The mossie is a much better B&Z platform then the A-20 and can certainly control a fight between the two...
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The 110 can turn on a dime, quickly guaranteeing a killshot almost anytime if there's 30's in the nose. Against an A20 it's definitely an asset, IMO it makes the 110 one of the A20's predators.
The A20, though, is slow, rolls slow, doesn't loop or turn fast enough..... It goes nowhere fast. It's like dogfighting in a P47 loaded with ordnance.
I wasn't talking about BnZ advantages, I meant in a commited knife fight vs the mossie. The A20 is dead meat unless you've got some trick using the dorsal turret.
The mossie is actualy a pretty mediocre E fighter. It bleeds way too fast.
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A-20 is one of the most rewarding planes to furball in.
Against someone who knows his stuff you're dead but there's enough potential victims in the MA to be humiliated by an A-20.
Yes, the A-20 rolls bad - but it's worst trait is the automatic selfdestruction beyond 350mph. It's combined roll&rudder performance and good low speed handling/turnrate will panic 90% of the MA population.
I love it :D
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A-20G is dead meat against many aircraft if their pilot is remotely competent. F4U, Ki-84, Spitfire Mk VIII/IX/XVI, ect all hold so many cards over it that it is effectively dead meat.
moot,
Oddly, in reality the Mossie's problem on intercepts was slowing down, not maintaining energy.
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I dont think you know the A-20 very well. Mossie has no chance in a knife fight unless it lands a FQ shot early (which it certainly can). The improved FM for mossie has made it a closer fight but the A-20 is still much stabler IMO on the edge and in the obliques...
looking back over the last couple of tours i'm 13-0 vs 110(G2). 4-1 vs the mossie and the death was in an a-20. If I go back farther what it shows is 6 kills vs 2 A-20 deaths for april 9-3 for the 110G2. I was 249/187 in a-20 overall that tour and it was primary ride from what I recall...
I dont really run into the mossie anywhere near as much as the 110. When I do they are a serious threat with alt & E but not much trouble otherwise. Usually if I get killed by either its the 3rd plane in on a fight that already has me tied up or its a B&Z pass I dont evade well enough.
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Originally posted by Karnak
A-20G is dead meat against many aircraft if their pilot is remotely competent. F4U, Ki-84, Spitfire Mk VIII/IX/XVI, ect all hold so many cards over it that it is effectively dead meat.
moot,
Oddly, in reality the Mossie's problem on intercepts was slowing down, not maintaining energy.
Alot depends on circumstance.
No question that the A-20 is inferior to any midwar or later fighter by a fairly wide margin in just about every important objective measure. At the same time it absorbs alot of damage, handles very smoothly and has excellent views thru the front 180 + a great guns package. It's very capable of putting up a good fight vs even a top notch pilot and if the A-20 absorbs a couple of attacks it stands a good chance of getting a lick or two in itself.
If the A-20 has a bit of alt & E then its a dangerous adversary to deal with regardless of what plane your in...
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Originally posted by leitwolf
A-20 is one of the most rewarding planes to furball in.
Against someone who knows his stuff you're dead but there's enough potential victims in the MA to be humiliated by an A-20.
Yes, the A-20 rolls bad - but it's worst trait is the automatic selfdestruction beyond 350mph. It's combined roll&rudder performance and good low speed handling/turnrate will panic 90% of the MA population.
I love it :D
you can get the A-20 to about 430 without shedding anything...but obviously your in danger of losing stuff anythime your over about 380 under any high G load...A-20 roll rate really isnt much of an issue....if your rolling it your flying it wrong anyway IMO...
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Humble, you're wrong regarding A20 vs Mossie in a commited fight, and you won't realize this till someone's proven it to you in practice.
Karnak, I don't know anything about the Mossie besides what's to learn in AH. The E retention difference between the real mossie and ours couldn't be just because of the flame dampers, could it?
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No, it was an issue because the aircraft was so clean aerodynamically. The flame dampers don't change that, they just reduce thrust a bit. A throttled back Mossie should decelerate pretty much the same dampers or no.
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Originally posted by humble
It's very capable of putting up a good fight vs even a top notch pilot and if the A-20 absorbs a couple of attacks it stands a good chance of getting a lick or two in itself.
No, no it doesn't, not if the pilot in one of the aircraft I listed is any good. The A-20 has literally no recourse. All of those fighters out turn, out roll and out accelerate the A-20 and have enough firepower to end it quickly. Unless the licks are with the turret, the A-20 will never get a shot.
This is assuming co-E start, not the A-20 diving on the other fighter.
The first time I met an A-20G I was flying a C.205. There were two of them flying in formation. I easily dispatched both, only getting pinged up a bit on the second attack by the second A-20G's top turret.
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If you run into A-20's in formation your dealing with a bomber pilot. If/when you ever run into anyone who really can fly the A-20 you might be a bit suprised. That doesnt mean the A-20 will win, but you'll have a better fight on your hands then you think. There is no plane including the 109k, tiffie, hurricane and 9T etc that can consistantly knock the A-20 out in any single pass.
Now there is no question that any fighter can easily gain and maintain the advantage in a fight vs an A-20 and that the only way the A-20 will win is if it out flies the opposing stick in some fashion. IMO after 6+ months and 100's of sorties the A-20 is suprisingly capable and the 1st time someone runs into me they are usually somewhat suprised with what the A-20 can do. It's very rare that I ever walk away from a 1 on 1 feeling like I didnt have a reasonable chance of winning (this is vs any plane){unless I'm focused on some particular FM aspect and pooch a fight learning}. I've killed a 262, tempest, Ki-84 and pony in the same sortie (all A to A from neg initial position) and had a number of 10+ kill sorties (all A to A).
While the A-20 is far from uber its also well above "deadmeat". The planes your listing are formidable [with a topnotch stick onboard] regardless of what your flying. I've stated numerous times that the a-20 is an easy plane to kill (it is)....but its also an easy plane to get killed by....even if you think you've got it under control
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so the A-20 should be referred to as a Fighter/Bomber? Is that how it is listed in game?
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This is a pretty typical type of attack from a very good 109 driver...
I've survived similiar attacks from K's with multiple 30mm strikes. This clip is a few months old so i've refined things a bit but still the reality is i'm not gonna get a lick in without taking one.
I didnt hit the small window I created but it was there. Even after the A-20 lost an engine and Blauk switched off to a bigger threat the A-20 still had the ability to engage. I've flown the A-20 on one engine with 1/2 the control surfaces gone and it still handles reasonably well...
left for dead or crippled (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/Kelvar.ahf)
Your making blanket statements that simply arent really justified. Any fighter has a clear advantage vs an A-20...but few pilots have a full understanding of the A-20's capabilities...and even if they do you cant escape the reality that it can absorb a huge amount of lead and keep on flying. And if your close enough to shoot the A-20 you'll be close enough for the A-20 to shoot back.
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Originally posted by Yeager
so the A-20 should be referred to as a Fighter/Bomber? Is that how it is listed in game?
The A-20G we have is not really a bomber. It's a strike aircraft...while its not a fighter it had some reasonable air to air capability and was capable of reasonable ACM.
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humble,
It is dead meat against those fighters.
As it, utterly helpless, cannot turn the fight.
Now, if the pilot in the A-20G is better to some degree that changes, but that you shot down those fighters means nothing. Most players in AH are not very good. Heck, I'm not very good and I cannot imagine how I could lose to an equal or somewhat better pilot with me in the Spit/Ki-84 or what have you and the other guy in the A-20G.
I can see me losing in a Mossie, though I'd have the advantage.
(FYI, to the best of my knowledge my career kills/deaths against the Bf110 in the Mossie stands at lots of kills and only one death, and that was a proximity kill it got on me after I overspeeded and tore my elevators off).
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Originally posted by Yeager
Sounds about right humble, question is: Does the A20 FM have a serious discrepency in vertical performance when compared to other FMs of comparable machines in game?
Momentum.... Mass traveling at a velocity is what determines initial zoom climbing ability. A-20s have a considerable mass. It has nothing to do with the FM, but everything to do with elementary physics.
Take a 109K-4 and an A-20G. Have them flying side-by-side at 325 mph. On cue, pull both into a 60 degree climb. Initially, the A-20 will surge ahead. However, once its mass and gravity overcome the stored energy, it must rely on power to prolong the climb. Eventually the 109 will begin to close. Since neither can sustain this climb angle both will finally fall out of the climb.
In combat, the A-20 pilot can utilize his potential (stored) energy to convert into a stunning zoom climb. This is why I have advocated NOT trying to rope a Co-E A-20. You can't do it... If it's within gun range, it will hose you good for trying.
The one big problem for the A-20 is its poor acceleration. So, once you bleed one down, you can then maneuver effectively in the vertical against the A-20.
God knows how many "BS" comments A-20 drivers have received from their victims... I've gotten a few myself. The bottom line is: Don't underestimate any aircraft or its pilot. If you do, you'll get careless and a hot stick, even in a clunker like an TBM or Boston, will beat you up.
My regards,
Widewing
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It has nothing to do with the FM, but everything to do with elementary physics.
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Dont you agree that it is through the FM designed by HTC that the AcesHigh A20 derives its in-game performance? We are talking not about the behavior of a genuine flying machine sitting on a tarmac somewhere, engines ready for takeoff, at least I am not, we are talking about the way this particular FM performs in-game when compared to other similar sized, weighted and engined FMs.
The only reason I bring this up is because I have seen this particular FM perform in a way that simply is not compatible with other similar FMs as I have experienced, at least thats what I am talking about.
Do not consider this a whine or a complaint. I do not put the question fourth in that framing. It is a question to see if others have experienced the same thing. I freely admit that this particular FM might be right on the money, comparatively speaking. If it is, wow. Nice performance.
Now excuse me while I go and try to bone up in the thing :D
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In the absence of power being added or drag from an atmosphere a feather and an anvil moving away from a gravity source at 250fps will reach the same exact distance from the gravity source before falling back towards the gravity source. If you add a slight amount of thrust away from the gravity source, say, 1/5th the weight of the feather for the feather and 4/5ths the weight of the feather on the anvil and the feather will reach a much higher altitude than the anvil.
Now, add an atmosphere and the anvil will reach a much greater altitude due to the feather's grossly disproportionate drag/mass ratio.
So the question is, what are the mass, thrust and drag numbers for, say, a Bf109K-4 and A-20G. I suspect that the drag/mass ratio actually favors the Bf109 as bombers tend to have large structures (drag) that are relatively empty (low weight).
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Originally posted by Karnak
humble,
It is dead meat against those fighters.
As it, utterly helpless, cannot turn the fight.
Now, if the pilot in the A-20G is better to some degree that changes, but that you shot down those fighters means nothing. Most players in AH are not very good. Heck, I'm not very good and I cannot imagine how I could lose to an equal or somewhat better pilot with me in the Spit/Ki-84 or what have you and the other guy in the A-20G.
I can see me losing in a Mossie, though I'd have the advantage.
(FYI, to the best of my knowledge my career kills/deaths against the Bf110 in the Mossie stands at lots of kills and only one death, and that was a proximity kill it got on me after I overspeeded and tore my elevators off).
Yes and no....
I've got a clip of me vs Spatula (as well as his end) posted elsewhere. This is a very good cat and mouse fight where he's careful to not get sucked in and i'm bzy wagging my tail trying to draw him in to a true angles fight. In the end its a draw with him just about bingo ammo and me just about bingo spare parts....
One of those fights that is just so much fun you dont care if you end up winning or losing....
I've also got a clip of me vs grmreaper where he just waded in and got thumped in a pony....
My K/D is normally 1.~/1 so I'm the ball almost as often as i'm the bat...but I've had countless good fights against very good sticks in there favored rides vs the A-20. The A-20 has a remarkably good FM overall and is capable of exceptional "smoothness". It's got alot of subtle ability even in a furball type of enviornment.
I film alot of stuff and 99%+ just gets erased without even me looking at it. I was looking for one clip and peeked at this earlier today. normally I never post this stuff since I dont see it as really helpful.
I'm stuck in the lower end of fight moving over our base and end up at the bottom of a mostly red enviornment with a ki-84 stalking me. I'm busy trying to stay alive and work the Ki-84. Just before I finally get the ki (and Steve cherries me) I have to evade a FQ shot from a tiffie and either evade the ki just before or after...and dont think I take any real hits from either [going from memory].
WW constantly remarks on the importance and value of "smooth" in a fight and how smooth can translate to fast. The A-20 is big, lumbering and cant stack up to much of anything when we look at raw data. But I dont think you can really quantify the effect of smooth on a fight. The A-20 is on rails thru 99% of its FM....
I'm constantly suprised by what its capable of, only reason I stay with it so much...I've never found an other plane with such subtleties that are repeatable. At times I feel like its got shields and a cloaking device...
More and more I'm dieing to the guy I didnt see {steve here}, regardless of the numbers...stuck on the bottom (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/defensiveA20.ahf)
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I would like to see your film versus grm just for the "comments" on 200.:D
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humble,
I am not talking about a multi-con fight with unknown skills. In a duel the Ki-84 can saddle up and it does not matter a whit if you take it to pure angles, the Ki-84 will just stay on your rear. Same with the Spitfire and F4U. And others I am sure. There is nothing the A-20G can do to shake those fighters, given similar skill levels.
As to the zoom, I don't think the A-20G should be outzooming much. If it was just mass the Lancaster should be good at zooming too, and it surely, and correctly, is not.
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Originally posted by thrila
I would like to see your film versus grm just for the "comments" on 200.:D
here you go (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/grmrpr2.ahf)
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all I have to say is A-20 (and Boston) are exceptional for their size and most pilots, vets or not, underestimate it's capabilities when engaging an A-20.... unless its loaded with fuel and bombs then your just gonna die
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I fly the Boston quite often as a strike ac ( typically hitting VH's and radar ata target field) . Its fast for a formation bomber so you can get the job done via F6 with little fuss.
Its a fun ac to fight in as its flapped high yo yo is cruelly tight and yet very stable......... catching many folk by surprise.
Its got no guns though and ends up being more entertainment than actual victory.
I cannot make the A20G do the same manouvres as the Boston. It basically feels much "heavier".
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To me the A-20 is even better in the high yoyo's since it can carry more speed at the start of the fight and seems more nimble through much of the flight envelope. The Boston has smaller tanks and/or goes thru fuel faster. I literally ran out of gas on 2 of 3 hops in the MWA (only time I've flown it recently). I'd gues that the reason the A-20 seems so sluggish is that you've got alot more gas then you would in the boston. I normally fly the A-20 "clean" with 50% fuel. By the time I get where I'm going I'm thru the aux fuel. Once the A-20 gets down to about 1/3 showing on the main tanks it hits its sweet spot. I can normally RTB on very little gas (if i'm still alive) at reduced rpm's...
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Originally posted by WMLute
The most you wanna dive from is 7k ish. Any more than that and you risk ripping the wings off.
well if you do you can still fly ti quite easily but if you lose more than the wings up to the fuelsalage than your dead try to kep it fro wingtips to engines.:huh :eek:
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Like any a/c in AH, an experienced hand can get something out of an A-20G or a Boston III and have some success with it.
A-20G vs the Mosquito, the Mossie should prevail, but thats a case for the combatants to decide.
I have tried the A-20G in "fighter mode" from time to time, it can be fun.
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Originally posted by Squire
Like any a/c in AH, an experienced hand can get something out of an A-20G or a Boston III and have some success with it.
A-20G vs the Mosquito, the Mossie should prevail, but thats a case for the combatants to decide.
I have tried the A-20G in "fighter mode" from time to time, it can be fun.
With alt & E yes, or if the mossie plays it safe and relies on the 20mm. But if the two planes T&B the A-20 will win more often then not.