Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saxman on November 29, 2007, 09:04:57 AM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22013748/?gt1=10547
An illegal immigrant making the border crossing from Mexico to Tuscon, Arizona knowingly gave up his chance to find a home in the United States in order to save the life of a young boy stranded in the desert after the van in which he was riding left the road and crashed at the bottom of a 300ft cliff. The boy, whose mother was killed in the crash, was dressed only in shorts and unprepared for the cold of a winter night in the desert.
The man made a fire and watched over the boy through the night, until a hunting party found them the next morning. The boy has been reunited with his surviving family, and the man has since been returned to Mexico.
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Wow no kidding.. hadn't heard of it yet..
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Yeah, lets get all weepy because one illegal did the right thing. Almost balances all the deaths due to illegal immigrants I guess?
Not to minimize that guys actions, he probably saved the kids life, but that is one thing which on balance with all the deaths caused by illegals including those killed by illegals driving under the influence doesn't make a huge argument for the illegals.
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in tucson there trying to get the guy a visa so he can live here
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Another thread already going on the subject:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=220426
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! Here is what they cost us ......
1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html< FONT face=Arial color=black size=4>
3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html
5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
& lt; U> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
http:// premium . cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/06 10/29/ldt.01.html
9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are
caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
10. The ill! egal aliens in the United State s have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millio ns of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Ins titute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.r ense.com/general75/niht.htm
14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ".
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
The total cost is a whooping .
$ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR
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Originally posted by CHECKERS
! Here is what they cost us ......
The total cost is a whooping .
$ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR
But....but....BUT...It saved ONE life, so it must be worth it!!!!!!
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Yeah Dago, because I'm SURE legal residents aren't responsible for death and injury in this country.
Incidentally, recent studies have found that the cost of supporting illegals have actually been greatly OVER-estimated.
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There is no doubt that there have been some good and decent folks who come accross the line into the US. That individual is one of them. IMO he deserves a chance at a legal stay here.
For another side of the same coin there are others who come here to steal and rob. They also have others who knowingly try to manipulate the system (anchor babies) to make a place for themselves without bothering to go through the legal methods of gaining admission. There are also many who want to live here but have no intention of being citizens.
The trick is to find the good ones who want to live a decent life and help support the nation they are adopting and remove the others who are just preying on the country.
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Saxman even a null cost of supporting illegal residents wouldn't void their intentions not to integrate... What possible reason could you have for supporting more sand in the clockwork?
If for no other reason, they're delaying proper immigrants that'd actualy improve things rather than questionably weigh them down at best, and spoil it all for no good reason at worst.
The argument that illegals have made beneficial contribution to the country after all looks like a bright side of the moon argument, totaly incongruous. Any population sample as vast as the whole of illegal immigrants in the US will have a few exceptionaly good and bad apples, it's just a bell curve... It's the world upside down! :lol
Because a few nazis had good hearts and were indeed not even nazis at heart but just caught in the times' whirlpool, nazi ideology is right? Is that the sort of statistical spinning you're trying to pull off here?
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this will be a non issue once we become the North American Union, also know as the country of Canamerxico, we will all be brothers, now i have to get back to my spanish lessons.
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The point is that Illegals are like EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET. There's those with good intentions just trying to get by and find a better life for themselves, and there's those who aren't worth a pile of dung. Attaching the word "Illegal" doesn't make a dammed bit of difference.
There's a LOT of native-born Americans I'd LOVE to kick out and let a whole FAMILY of Illegals stay in their place.
Some arbitrary label or status does NOT decide the value of someone, and frankly I'm sick of wading through the sweeping generalizations infecting this board, the media, and politics in this country in general and watching how it erodes the ideals this country was founded on.
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The law doesn't make a damned bit of difference? Are you anarchist or something?
"Their value" has nothing to do with it. You've got your priorities mixed up. They can get in like everyone else, lawfuly.
The only people who can deserve a free ride to the front of the line are political asylum and other urgent refugees.
The real threat to the ideals the US were founded on is neglect for those same ideals - why should honest people have to take a back seat to criminals?
"LIKE EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THIS PLANET" - how's that for a sweeping generalization?
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Saxman, don't you understand what the word "illegal" means?
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Originally posted by Saxman
The point is that Illegals are like EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET. There's those with good intentions just trying to get by and find a better life for themselves, and there's those who aren't worth a pile of dung. Attaching the word "Illegal" doesn't make a dammed bit of difference.
There's a LOT of native-born Americans I'd LOVE to kick out and let a whole FAMILY of Illegals stay in their place.
Some arbitrary label or status does NOT decide the value of someone, and frankly I'm sick of wading through the sweeping generalizations infecting this board, the media, and politics in this country in general and watching how it erodes the ideals this country was founded on.
They ALL disregarded our laws and sovereignity by coming here illegally. Therefore, the label "illegal" is not in the least arbitrary. If I rob a bank (in this case the bank of the us-taxpayer), but then do nothing illegal for the rest of my life, I'm still guilty and deserve to be punished. In the case of illegal aliens (the term immigrant is too broadly applied, when so many of them have no intention of integrating into our culture), their punishment in general amounts to simply being sent back to their point of origins. Arguably this is not punishment at all, and abundently more humane than how Mexico treats illegal aliens in their own country.
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Originally posted by CHECKERS
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries .
Errr.....say again? Terrorist Countries....is there a list of these somewhere or what?
What makes a Sovereign nation a "Terrorist Country"? the actions of some of it's citizens, the actions of it's Govt. or what?
19,500 eh?
It seems the U.S. of Gun Toting Crackheads, BJ Loving Presidents,Gangsta Hos,Oil Hungry Warmongers and Beer Swilling Rednecks has a real problem on its hands.
I mean,where can all those twenty odd thousand people be illegally detained?
The insulting and degrading generalisations could go on forever, but surely even you lot of morbidly obese drug smuggling serial killers get the point by now.
;) <<---- Panty bunchers and knee jerk reaction "Amerihater!" shouters please take note of the little winking smiley denoting sarcasm and irony.
Get all uptight and indignant all you like, not one of you was at all perturbed by that little gem quoted above, so I'm guessing you all have no probs with being addressed in the same fashion.
Anyway, I'm off for another day of milking the socialist health care system, croc wrestling, water buff charming , surfing and partying myself unconcious.
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by Maverick
There is no doubt that there have been some good and decent folks who come accross the line into the US. That individual is one of them. IMO he deserves a chance at a legal stay here.
by Saxman
The point is that Illegals are like EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET.
I'm SURE legal residents aren't responsible for death and injury in this country.
There's a LOT of native-born Americans I'd LOVE to kick out and let a whole FAMILY of Illegals stay in their place.
Maverick - No doubt that the guy did a good deed.. But at the same time, what about all the people legally trying to come here, and what about the fact that he also comitted a crime first.
Saxman - I don't think anyones disputing the fact that illegals are human. The illegal "alien" term is not what you think it means. J/K. Either way, there's a procedure to follow.
Of course legals commit crimes, but that has NOTHING to do with the argument.
It doesn't really matter what you would LOVE to do. This has nothing to do with the argument either..
Bottom line is this: The guy broke US laws as soon as he set foot on US soil.
In my opinion, i think the boy would have been found alive whether the guy was with him or not.
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Saxman, what would you say about this:
This guy (we'll call him Tom) has been trained in CPR techniques.
Tom is down on his luck lately and decides to rob a bank after hours.
After much reasearch and planning Tom has a plan that is fool-proof and he decides to execute it the following night.
The following night Tom breaks into the bank and proceeds to rob the bank. In the process he finds the night watchman lying on the floor (he had a heart attack). Tom administers CPR and revives the man. He then calls 911 and waits for the parametics to arrive. They arrive and the man is taken to the hospital and later recovers. Tom is arrested.
Should Tom receive a lesser sentence than someone else who robbed a bank and did not save a night watchman's life? (all things being equal between Tom and this other robber)
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Originally posted by CHECKERS
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millio ns of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.
19,500?
How do we now this number to three significant digits when we do not know the total to the nearest single significant digit?
the 338 doesn't pass the snif test either.
That being said, enforcing the border is an essential part of being a country.
Illegal is illegal and giving benefits to illegals is aiding and abetting.
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Have any of you actually done a little research into the application process for even a temporary work visa?
I did a quick little search of the US Department of Immigration's website. ASSUMING a prospective immigrant even HAS internet access there's a good couple dozen different types to fill out. Then, if they can find the right type of visa to apply for there's the applications to fill out, fees to pay, and several miles of red tape and beaurocracy to navigate, including the myriad reasons immigration can come up with to deny. It may be illegal, but reading through that I can hardly blame people for wanting to find a shortcut.
There's an entire xenophobic culture that's grown up here centered around keeping people on the outside OUT to the point that the only legal way IN is a confusing, expensive, draconian mess that only CONTRIBUTES to the growing surge in illegal entry. If ANY change needs to be made in immigration law, it's that the process needs to be simplified, streamlined and made more accessible. Ease the working restrictions. Eliminate the fees. Modify the forms to condense the couple dozen down to a few. Handled properly that should ALL be accomplishable while satisfying the public panic over border security.
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Originally posted by Saxman
The point is that Illegals are like EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET. There's those with good intentions just trying to get by and find a better life for themselves, and there's those who aren't worth a pile of dung. Attaching the word "Illegal" doesn't make a dammed bit of difference.
Some arbitrary label or status does NOT decide the value of someone, and frankly I'm sick of wading through the sweeping generalizations infecting this board, the media, and politics in this country in general and watching how it erodes the ideals this country was founded on.
They affect my job do they affect yours?
Good let them revolt in there own country and fix there own problems in Mexico or what ever country there from? Maybe they wont need to come here. Its not our fualt their country is keeps them oppressed/depressed.
Their is plenty of money in Mexico.
"There's a LOT of native-born Americans I'd LOVE to kick out and let a whole 3 FAMILY's of Illegals stay in their place."
Not to mention inflated rental prices.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Have any of you actually done a little research into the application process for even a temporary work visa?
I did a quick little search of the US Department of Immigration's website. ASSUMING a prospective immigrant even HAS internet access there's a good couple dozen different types to fill out. Then, if they can find the right type of visa to apply for there's the applications to fill out, fees to pay, and several miles of red tape and beaurocracy to navigate, including the myriad reasons immigration can come up with to deny. It may be illegal, but reading through that I can hardly blame people for wanting to find a shortcut.
There's an entire xenophobic culture that's grown up here centered around keeping people on the outside OUT to the point that the only legal way IN is a confusing, expensive, draconian mess that only CONTRIBUTES to the growing surge in illegal entry. If ANY change needs to be made in immigration law, it's that the process needs to be simplified, streamlined and made more accessible. Ease the working restrictions. Eliminate the fees. Modify the forms to condense the couple dozen down to a few.
So now you blame it on the rules that are set up?
Do you think that the people coming over here illegally actually TRIED to fill out the required forms and follow the rules?
Some people find income tax forms to be hard to read, confusing, and a waste of time.
Maybe they should just say "f" it and not fill them out?
Oh, by the way, that would be breaking the law as well.
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Originally posted by CHECKERS
! Here is what they cost us ......
1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html< FONT face=Arial color=black size=4>
3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html
5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
& lt; U> http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
http:// premium . cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/06 10/29/ldt.01.html
9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are
caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
10. The ill! egal aliens in the United State s have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millio ns of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Ins titute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.r ense.com/general75/niht.htm
14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ".
http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
The total cost is a whooping .
$ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR
If we just did #12 we would save 108.3 billion:D
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Pssssssssssssssssssttttttttt. ...........one more time
One thread with this see-through article isn`t enough?
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Originally posted by Saxman
There's a LOT of native-born Americans I'd LOVE to kick out and let a whole FAMILY of Illegals stay in their place.
I'm sure that many employers looking to maximize their profit margins agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly.
As for those evil generalizations, here are some worth considering:
(I'm posing them as questions so that you can respond with more of that brilliant research you've done)
1.) How many illegals pay taxes?
2.) How many illegals don't send large percentages of their cash out of the country, and out of our economy?
3.) How many illegals come here with the intention of learning the language, assimilating to a reasonable degree, and staying around to contribute to educate their children in hopes of having them someday contribute to American society?
4.) Based on the answers to the above questions, what percentage of illegals actually aren't parasitic by nature?
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Originally posted by Saxman
The point is that Illegals are like EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET. There's those with good intentions just trying to get by and find a better life for themselves, and there's those who aren't worth a pile of dung. Attaching the word "Illegal" doesn't make a dammed bit of difference.
There's a LOT of native-born Americans I'd LOVE to kick out and let a whole FAMILY of Illegals stay in their place.
Some arbitrary label or status does NOT decide the value of someone, and frankly I'm sick of wading through the sweeping generalizations infecting this board, the media, and politics in this country in general and watching how it erodes the ideals this country was founded on.
So laws mean nothing to you? Where do you live so I can come steal from you. Hell thats just another law right? Those don't need to be obeyed, we are just all humans after all.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Attaching the word "Illegal" doesn't make a dammed bit of difference.
Can I use that next time I'm pulled over for doing 70 in a 55 zone?
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Saxman immigration could work seemlessly in the first place if so many parasites weren't already clogging the plumbing.
You keep arguing things as though illegals should have more privileges than legal applicants for immigration. That the application process is difficult or a ton of red tape isn't an excuse to break the law like you seem to be saying.
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Originally posted by Saxman
The point is that Illegals are like EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING ON THE PLANET. There's those with good intentions just trying to get by and find a better life for themselves, and there's those who aren't worth a pile of dung. Attaching the word "Illegal" doesn't make a dammed bit of difference.
There's a LOT of native-born Americans I'd LOVE to kick out and let a whole FAMILY of Illegals stay in their place.
Some arbitrary label or status does NOT decide the value of someone, and frankly I'm sick of wading through the sweeping generalizations infecting this board, the media, and politics in this country in general and watching how it erodes the ideals this country was founded on.
If you ever come to LA, I can hook you up on a police ride along in East LA.. it'll be an eye opener as to what the majority of this sub culture of people are about. One really needs to experience how and what they do to live for a complete understanding of what a huge problem they represent.
Desperate people do desperate things.
Better yet, go down to "The Nickle" at night, say "hola" to the Illegals who live in the tents... if you're family / friends are lucky the police might find your skeleton a year from now...
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Originally posted by GovtFlu
Better yet, go down to "The Nickle" at night, say "hola" to the Illegals who live in the tents... if you're family / friends are lucky the police might find your skeleton a year from now...
But, but, there was this Mexican who stayed up all night with a 9 year old! Surely you can't be serious!
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What's either missed or ignored while all of you are busy putting words into my mouth is that the situation is SELF-ESCALATING. The harder it's made to get into the country, the more people there are who will believe they have to violate the system to get in. The more people who enter illegally, the stricter the criteria for immigration is going to be made and the harsher the penalties.
Illegal immigration is NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED by introducing harsher punishment and stricter entrance criteria.
Is people not wanting to assimilate a problem to you? Well then blame it on the uber-PC wave that's made it to where you can't say "Merry Christmas" to some guy across the street without having to add a hundred other holidays after it, because once-upon-a-time the government ENFORCED assimilation.
There's better and more efficient ways of resolving ALL these related issues than by putting up a fence. Reactionary responses SELDOM correct the heart of the issue, and that's EXACTLY what the government and law enforcement is doing: Reacting, not proactively taking the steps that would satisfy BOTH sides which is the ONLY way to resolve the issue with ANY degree of finality.
Ease the immigration restrictions. Restructure the process. THEN all these people that have been entering illegally either because they HAVE tried and the system won't allow them to do so legally OR because it's too much for them to bother want to bother with are more likely to do so within the law, which the government can then more effectively regulate.
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Originally posted by Saxman
What's either missed or ignored while all of you are busy putting words into my mouth is that the situation is SELF-ESCALATING. The harder it's made to get into the country, the more people there are who will believe they have to violate the system to get in. The more people who enter illegally, the stricter the criteria for immigration is going to be made and the harsher the penalties.
Illegal immigration is NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED by introducing harsher punishment and stricter entrance criteria.
Is people not wanting to assimilate a problem to you? Well then blame it on the uber-PC wave that's made it to where you can't say "Merry Christmas" to some guy across the street without having to add a hundred other holidays after it, because once-upon-a-time the government ENFORCED assimilation.
There's better and more efficient ways of resolving ALL these related issues than by putting up a fence. Reactionary responses SELDOM correct the heart of the issue, and that's EXACTLY what the government and law enforcement is doing: Reacting, not proactively taking the steps that would satisfy BOTH sides which is the ONLY way to resolve the issue with ANY degree of finality.
Ease the immigration restrictions. Restructure the process. THEN all these people that have been entering illegally either because they HAVE tried and the system won't allow them to do so legally OR because it's too much for them to bother want to bother with are more likely to do so within the law, which the government can then more effectively regulate.
So you do think that the majority of illegals HAVE tried to get in legally and resorted to the illegal method because it's too much for them to bother or they can't?
Please.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Ease the immigration restrictions. Restructure the process. THEN all these people that have been entering illegally either because they HAVE tried and the system won't allow them to do so legally OR because it's too much for them to bother want to bother with are more likely to do so within the law, which the government can then more effectively regulate.
What is this? Some sort of twisted 'if you can't beat them, join them' policy?
Why don't we take it a step further and just surrender our sovereignty?
After all, tax-paying Americans would surely be easier to keep track for the Mexican government than Mexican migrant laborers have been thus far for the American government.
We'll learn Spanish much faster than they'll learn English and then it'll just be a matter of mastering the art of wearing a Sombrero on a windy day.
HOW does THIS solution SOUND to YOU?
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Welcome to US politics: A bunch of people so sure that what THEY think is right that the minute someone has a different idea they start throwing poo.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Welcome to US politics: A bunch of people so sure that what THEY think is right that the minute someone has a different idea they start throwing poo.
Welcome to US politics: Divert attention from the topic and demonize those that oppose you.
p.s. what "poo" are you talking about?
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(said in a loud sobbing manner) "LEAVE THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT ALONE!" :rofl
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I would have more sympathy for illegal immigrants if the very first thing they did in my country was obey the law.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I would have more sympathy for illegal immigrants if the very first thing they did in my country was obey the law.
Word.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Welcome to US politics: A bunch of people so sure that what THEY think is right that the minute someone has a different idea they start throwing poo.
You're proposing that we allow foreign nationals to dictate our laws and the way we define our borders. Poo is just what the doctor ordered.
Come up with something that doesn't reek quite so hard of shameless appeasement and you might get a different response.
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Where the HELL do you get the idea I'm talking about appeasment?
The system being used now DOES...NOT...WORK. It does NOT slow or reduce the numbers of illegal immigration. It does NOT in any effective manner send the ones already here BACK. You put up a fence they'll just come with wirecutters. Send out armed and trigger-happy patrols then you're just escalating it even further. The "Solutions" being introduced ARE NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM. They're only adding TO it.
If something doesn't work, you FIX it. The system needs to be CHANGED, and one needs to be found that WILL solve these problems.
Instead of controlling WHO can get in, the government should instead focus more attention on monitoring WHAT THEY DO ONCE THEY'RE IN. NOWHERE HAVE I *EVER* said "Let them in and @$#& the consequences." Read me a little more carefully and you'll see that EVERY TIME I've said "Easier to get in, but closer regulation once they do." I do NOT see what's so threatening about easing entry requirements if the government instead concentrates on regulating their activities IN the country.
If it's easier for someone to enter the country legally, they will be MORE LIKELY to declare themselves to the authorities, which will then make it EASIER for the government to keep tabs on their activities and if there ARE problems easier for them to be dealt with. It's NOT a perfect system but the one we've got isn't doing any better a job.
I'm not saying make the Dept. of Immigration back into some guy sitting at the gates with a logbook taking down names, but with all of their resources focused on keeping people OUT it's only making their jobs harder.
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Hmmmm.... lets see...
I had to get the US Govt permission to marry a Foreign National.
She had to have a background investigation.
She had to go through interviews/screening process at the US Embassy.
Applied and Granted an Entrance Visa.
Applied for an Registered Alien (Green Card).
7 Years time in Residency.
English as a Second Language.
Study for and Pass a US Citizenship Test.
She is now a US Citizen. Has a Drivers Lic. and is Registered to Vote.
Dammm the system doesn't work. I could have saved time and money just by teaching her how to swim.
BTW I have two Daughters Born Abroad in separate Countries.
So Saxman your whiny liberal arse statement that the system doesn't work doesn't fly with me.
Cry me a River.
Mac
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Saxman, read what Mac wrote.
The system does work.
Why is it SO IMPORTANT that these people get in as fast as they can?
So what if it takes time and may be "difficult"?
And if the gov. wanted to stop people from walking over the border, they could...period.
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Mac,
How nice it worked out for you. But for some people it hasn't, and that does STILL not address the issue that this wonderful, perfect, immaculate system hasn't stopped the flow of illegal entry, because if it DID we wouldn't be having this conversation in the FIRST place. Or do I need to go back and quote all the figures posted at the beginning of this thread to remind everyone there's still a problem here?
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Received in email:
C O W S
Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that during the mad cow epidemic our government could track a single cow, born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall where she slept in the state of Washington? And, they tracked her calves to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 11 million illegal aliens wandering around our country.
Maybe we should give each of them a cow.
T H E C O N S T I T U T I O N
They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq . Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it has worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore.
T H E 1 0 C O M M A N D M E N T S
The real reason that we can't have the Ten Commandments posted in a courthouse is this:
You cannot post "Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery," and "Thou Shall Not Lie" in a building full of lawyers, judges and politicians...It creates a hostile work environment.
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Saxman if there is something you really want in life you work for it....
You don't steal, trespass, break and enter and expect everyone to feel sorry for you.
There are reasons for the Law.
Spin on that!
Mac
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Originally posted by Saxman
Where the HELL do you get the idea I'm talking about appeasment?
The system being used now DOES...NOT...WORK. It does NOT slow or reduce the numbers of illegal immigration. It does NOT in any effective manner send the ones already here BACK. You put up a fence they'll just come with wirecutters. Send out armed and trigger-happy patrols then you're just escalating it even further. The "Solutions" being introduced ARE NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM. They're only adding TO it.
If something doesn't work, you FIX it. The system needs to be CHANGED, and one needs to be found that WILL solve these problems.
Instead of controlling WHO can get in, the government should instead focus more attention on monitoring WHAT THEY DO ONCE THEY'RE IN. NOWHERE HAVE I *EVER* said "Let them in and @$#& the consequences." Read me a little more carefully and you'll see that EVERY TIME I've said "Easier to get in, but closer regulation once they do." I do NOT see what's so threatening about easing entry requirements if the government instead concentrates on regulating their activities IN the country.
If it's easier for someone to enter the country legally, they will be MORE LIKELY to declare themselves to the authorities, which will then make it EASIER for the government to keep tabs on their activities and if there ARE problems easier for them to be dealt with. It's NOT a perfect system but the one we've got isn't doing any better a job.
I'm not saying make the Dept. of Immigration back into some guy sitting at the gates with a logbook taking down names, but with all of their resources focused on keeping people OUT it's only making their jobs harder.
A pipe dream.
You loosen the restrictions, more pour through. Once they're here, how do you propose the government keep tabs on them? How do you propose the government should enforce the laws? How do you propose the government should deal with those who use your lax entry requirements to just enter and immediately blow off the rules? How?
They get in on their own, as it stands, and the government is helpless. How do you propose to empower the government by making it legal? You gonna take down addresses? Names? Install tracking devices? You gonna tell employers to only employ those that adhere to your rules? You gonna give them ID cards?
You'll succeed in letting more in. That I don't doubt. Once you do that, they'll just continue to do what they've always been doing because, why not? In the end, you've given them just what they want, and all the freedom in the world to do as they please here.
You're right, the current system is not effective, but your solution is just plain silly. "We can't control them at the border so let's let them in and control them inside the country..."
"my door won't stop a burglar so I'll just talk him down once he's in my living room."
Brilliant.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Yeah Dago, because I'm SURE legal residents aren't responsible for death and injury in this country.
For the purposes of this discussion, what legal residents do is irrelivent. the point is, what the illegals do would not happen if our borders were enforced as they would not be here.
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"Remember the Alamo."
Keeps ringing in my head for some reason.
Mac
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Originally posted by AWMac
"Remember the Alamo."
Keeps ringing in my head for some reason.
Mac
'Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee' seems more appropriate. That's the last time the residents of North America allowed unrestricted immigration.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Mac,
How nice it worked out for you. But for some people it hasn't, and that does STILL not address the issue that this wonderful, perfect, immaculate system hasn't stopped the flow of illegal entry, because if it DID we wouldn't be having this conversation in the FIRST place. Or do I need to go back and quote all the figures posted at the beginning of this thread to remind everyone there's still a problem here?
Saxman,
It worked out for Mac because he did what he was supposed to do.
Do you really think that the people who sneak over the border have really tried to follow the rules? I think the opposite is true and they probably do not even know or care if there are rules.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Where the HELL do you get the idea I'm talking about appeasment?
The system being used now DOES...NOT...WORK. It does NOT slow or reduce the numbers of illegal immigration. It does NOT in any effective manner send the ones already here BACK. You put up a fence they'll just come with wirecutters. Send out armed and trigger-happy patrols then you're just escalating it even further. The "Solutions" being introduced ARE NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM. They're only adding TO it.
If something doesn't work, you FIX it. The system needs to be CHANGED, and one needs to be found that WILL solve these problems.
Instead of controlling WHO can get in, the government should instead focus more attention on monitoring WHAT THEY DO ONCE THEY'RE IN. NOWHERE HAVE I *EVER* said "Let them in and @$#& the consequences." Read me a little more carefully and you'll see that EVERY TIME I've said "Easier to get in, but closer regulation once they do." I do NOT see what's so threatening about easing entry requirements if the government instead concentrates on regulating their activities IN the country.
If it's easier for someone to enter the country legally, they will be MORE LIKELY to declare themselves to the authorities, which will then make it EASIER for the government to keep tabs on their activities and if there ARE problems easier for them to be dealt with. It's NOT a perfect system but the one we've got isn't doing any better a job.
I'm not saying make the Dept. of Immigration back into some guy sitting at the gates with a logbook taking down names, but with all of their resources focused on keeping people OUT it's only making their jobs harder.
Okay, I know that It's hot enough to BBQ a side o'beef in here, but this was something that you said that caught my eye, sax.
One of the things' in this country that is jealously gaurded(and fought over, every day) are our freedoms and privacy. Introducing any kind of legislation that specially controls' and 'regulates' activity, gives the current government powers that the founding fathers did not intend for them to have.(Do you think that Ben Franklin would have voted for the 'Patriot' act?)
The other thing is, At some point the U.S. Justice system has to be kept from more compromise than it's already suffered. Simply put: If a citizen or national of a foreign country enters the borders of the U.S., and willingly avoids the normal diplomatic avenues of either achieving U.S. Citizenship, or a residence Visa, then those people should be expelled, as stated in our laws. If we only selectively enforce these laws, as many say we should in Jesus's case, we set forth a precedent which could well nigh be the undoing of our country. And, as some other posters' have pointed out with quite a few numbers thrown up on the BBS here, Due to a lack of enforcement of our current laws, we are starting to feel a negative economic and social impact, in fact, for some time now.
Jesus did do a good deed. It showed some personal sacrifice. Maybe alot more than most were willing to show. But what would people have thought of Jesus, had he not chanced upon the wreck? He would be another factor in our economic decline. Please consider, He might be taking a job from someone who grew up here, payed taxes here, spoke english, and had legal citizenship...but because of that, that someone's employer thinks that he can dramatically cut labor costs' by using an illegal immigrant like Jesus, whom he can pay under the table, not worry about taxes or healthcare, and he can pay less than minimum wage(Because on the books, Jesus, and millions of other illegal aliens' do not exist, anyway.)
A line has to be drawn, cold and cruel, I know, but we've reached the point in our country's history where a factor like Illegal immigration can undue everything we've striven to achieve. We must end it soon, or our end will be on the horizon.
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Thank you, Frode, for that calm, reasoned response that refrained from joining the "Flame the Idealist" circle jerk.
I would like to add that I'm sure the Founding Fathers also didn't anticipate a future where the nation's borders would be regulated in the way they are now. Franklin's statement: "Those who willingly give up liberty for security deserve neither" can ALSO be applied to this entire argument. That's one the key difficulties in this debate is that letter of the law TODAY is clashing with the Founding Fathers' original spirit of intent. So many UNIQUE liberties were written into the US Constitution at the time, PRECISELY in response to the legal excesses of governments, and the religious and ethnic intolerance of Europe (and that's not to say that the latter two did NOT exist here, but the United States is largely unique in that people of so many diverse religions and cultures learned to co-exist in relative peace).
Had US borders been regulated throughout the 19th century to the same (comparable) degree they are now, individuals who were then welcomed (let's steer clear of the then-existing racist complications for the time being, shall we?) would TODAY be turned away or forcibly removed. It would have COMPLETELY changed the character of the nation in the period between the end of the Civil war and beginning of the 19th century if we had the same immigration system in place then as we have today. This may be one of the key eras that DEFINED us as a nation. It's a continuous process of the demand for greater security challenging the liberty of one of the most open borders in the world.
And I find it disturbing because one of the things that MADE America so special is that we didn't CARE who you were, or who your father was, or how much money you had. All that mattered was that you wanted to make a better life for yourself and for your families and to have the power to chose your OWN destiny. It's only been this MODERN culture of Political Correctness that the meaning of "Land of Opportunity" has changed from an opportunity to BUILD a better life, to expecting it handed to you. This is the failing of ALL people in America. Native citizens expect it because they were born here. Immigrants expect it because they're willing to fight to COME here.
I will not deny that yes, there ARE some who come here thinking they can get a free ride (the government ITSELF is partially responsible for that). I will not deny that yes, there ARE some people who would take advantage of any relaxation in border security to do us harm. But why is this the only side people are willing to see? At what point do we reach that moment where we've given TOO MUCH up for security? There's a difference between surrendering sovereignty, to stepping back and seeing that the knee-jerk reaction has only been exacerbating the issue.
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Saxman,
Does building your own destiny include doing it at the expense of others?
It's only been this MODERN culture of Political Correctness that the meaning of "Land of Opportunity" has changed from an opportunity to BUILD a better life, to expecting it handed to you. This is the failing of ALL people in America. Native citizens expect it because they were born here. Immigrants expect it because they're willing to fight to COME here.
What? Lazy Americans expect it because they were born here so it's acceptable that immigrants (illegal) expect it too? Illegal immigrants expect it because they're willing to BREAK THE LAW to come here. What fight? Walking across the border in secret?
How exactly did the immigrants come to our country throughout the 19th century, Saxman? Did they just walk in? Did a majority of them jump off the boat and swim to Brooklyn or Staten Island, bypassing Ellis Island?
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they are on our roads killing our handicaps (http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_112807_news_hwy._99_wheelchair_hit_and_run.4936bc49.html) .
:furious
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Originally posted by Saxman
Incidentally, recent studies have found that the cost of supporting illegals have actually been greatly OVER-estimated.
link?
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a country without secure borders is not a country, it is open territory.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
link?
Heres a link for Senor Saxman
not work ethic or legal status but education (http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071129/NATION/111290083/1001)
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"How exactly did the immigrants come to our country throughout the 19th century, Saxman? Did they just walk in? Did a majority of them jump off the boat and swim to Brooklyn or Staten Island, bypassing Ellis Island?"
I think that was the point I was trying to make. Immigration laws have changed SIGNIFICANTLY. By today's standards, in the 19th century people were essentially being let in right off the boat. Extensive background checks weren't practical, if even possible, and there was no prearranged application process. Only about 2% of the 12-20 million immigrants who passed through were denied entry via Ellis Island, and were either allowed into the country proper or sent back to the boats within about 6hrs of arrival. If today's immigration laws had been in effect at that time, that number denied entry would likely have been SIGNIFICANTLY higher.
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Originally posted by Saxman
"How exactly did the immigrants come to our country throughout the 19th century, Saxman? Did they just walk in? Did a majority of them jump off the boat and swim to Brooklyn or Staten Island, bypassing Ellis Island?"
I think that was the point I was trying to make. Immigration laws have changed SIGNIFICANTLY. By today's standards, in the 19th century people were essentially being let in right off the boat. Extensive background checks weren't practical, if even possible, and there was no prearranged application process. Only about 2% of the 12-20 million immigrants who passed through were denied entry via Ellis Island, and were either allowed into the country proper or sent back to the boats within about 6hrs of arrival. If today's immigration laws had been in effect at that time, that number denied entry would likely have been SIGNIFICANTLY higher.
Ok, how would one know if they would be granted admittance to this country if they do not go through the proper channels?
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by the way, I think you need to get your Caps Lock button fixed.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Thank you, Frode, for that calm, reasoned response that refrained from joining the "Flame the Idealist" circle jerk.
I would like to add that I'm sure the Founding Fathers also didn't anticipate a future where the nation's borders would be regulated in the way they are now. Franklin's statement: "Those who willingly give up liberty for security deserve neither" can ALSO be applied to this entire argument. That's one the key difficulties in this debate is that letter of the law TODAY is clashing with the Founding Fathers' original spirit of intent. So many UNIQUE liberties were written into the US Constitution at the time, PRECISELY in response to the legal excesses of governments, and the religious and ethnic intolerance of Europe (and that's not to say that the latter two did NOT exist here, but the United States is largely unique in that people of so many diverse religions and cultures learned to co-exist in relative peace).
Had US borders been regulated throughout the 19th century to the same (comparable) degree they are now, individuals who were then welcomed (let's steer clear of the then-existing racist complications for the time being, shall we?) would TODAY be turned away or forcibly removed. It would have COMPLETELY changed the character of the nation in the period between the end of the Civil war and beginning of the 19th century if we had the same immigration system in place then as we have today. This may be one of the key eras that DEFINED us as a nation. It's a continuous process of the demand for greater security challenging the liberty of one of the most open borders in the world.
And I find it disturbing because one of the things that MADE America so special is that we didn't CARE who you were, or who your father was, or how much money you had. All that mattered was that you wanted to make a better life for yourself and for your families and to have the power to chose your OWN destiny. It's only been this MODERN culture of Political Correctness that the meaning of "Land of Opportunity" has changed from an opportunity to BUILD a better life, to expecting it handed to you. This is the failing of ALL people in America. Native citizens expect it because they were born here. Immigrants expect it because they're willing to fight to COME here.
I will not deny that yes, there ARE some who come here thinking they can get a free ride (the government ITSELF is partially responsible for that). I will not deny that yes, there ARE some people who would take advantage of any relaxation in border security to do us harm. But why is this the only side people are willing to see? At what point do we reach that moment where we've given TOO MUCH up for security? There's a difference between surrendering sovereignty, to stepping back and seeing that the knee-jerk reaction has only been exacerbating the issue.
If I remember my early U.S. history correctly, The founders' knew that the nation would be able to expand westward quite a bit (Was it Washington that did some survey work in Ohio?) Anyway, At that time, The U.S. was pretty small, population-wise, and there wasn't really a problem with excess immigration, like we have now. They did not have the lure of all the Social-welfare programs that we have, that take someone working 14-16 hours a day, and barely feeding his family in a tin-shack in some shantytown, to doing nothing but filling out the proper forms, and getting a welfare check on the 1st and the 15th that was more in a week than they made in a month or two in mexico.
I'd like to point out too, that we've never really tried to do much in the way of border security, at all. If you look a little more recently at history (1914) You'll see that Pancho Villa was crossing back and forth, doing whatever he wanted...The gov't. finally sent "Blackjack" Pershing down into Mexico after him. People used to cross the border both ways, almost at will. It hasn't been until recent times that any real attempts have been made at policing the border.
As far as trading anything for security...If you are referring to things like the Department of Homeland Security and the 'Patriot' act, Neither of those were brought on by Illegal immigration, But almost entirely by 9/11. And since then, Illegal immigration has gotten worse, if anything, Although neither of the afformentioned have actually done anything to curb the problem, although the way they're set up, they could (and should have, too, if you look at the problem of Arab extremists' posing as Illegal aliens from Mexico.) Being the way that they go about it, an illegal alien is pretty hard to track in a nation of 300+ million. They don't have birth certificates in this country, no SS#, no drivers' license, None of the documentation that a legal citizen of the U.S. has. Really, the only efficient method of stopping them is at the border, or if you're lucky, informant tips that net quite a few at a time.
There's one final thing. Culture. And this might seem outright racist and Un-PC, but honest-to-god, it has to be said, because turning our back on this problem is actually building more racial pressure, not relieving it.
You mentioned immigration in the early U.S. And, alot of what you said, I agree with. Many of the immigrants' from old Europe, russia, etc. have been able to intigrate into 'American' culture, because the numbers' of immigrants did not overwhelm the previous citizens' already here( What happened to the Indians' is a whole 'nother thread topic, But no, They did'nt really get a chance to assimiliate.) However, In the case of Illegal immigration from Mexico, They've been flooding in too fast, in too short a time, for our existing culture to assimilate. Instead, In the areas' where they settle, they don't speak in the tongue of the Founders' who rose up and fought off the tyranny of their opressors', but rather a foreign language. I don't know what it's like in St. Louis, Sax, But I think if you take a trip to Southern California, you might see things' in a different light. We have to contend with crap like this:http://www.myspace.com/la_brown_berets
If things' like this kind of give you a glimpse into the cultural rift, there are quite a few more-ranging from mild to wild, Just start with the link I provided and go from there.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Heres a link for Senor Saxman
not work ethic or legal status but education (http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071129/NATION/111290083/1001)
And what doews it have to do with his claim that the costs have been greatly exagerrated?
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Originally posted by Saxman
Illegal immigration is NOT GOING TO BE RESOLVED by introducing harsher punishment and stricter entrance criteria.
Lets see, one high voltage electric fence, 3000 Dobermans and 1500 guards with sniper rifles.
Wanna cross now?
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Saxman for all your explaining you still sound like you want to blame legal US residents for Mexicans' wrongdoings.
No illegal employers state-side would make illegal immigration plummet.
Why such a simple solution isn't prefered to the bleeding heart amnesty for the whole world alternative is beyond me.
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Originally posted by Neubob
1.) How many illegals pay taxes?
3.) How many illegals come here with the intention of learning the language, assimilating to a reasonable degree, and staying around to contribute to educate their children in hopes of having them someday contribute to American society?
1. Would the system let them pay taxes even if they wanted to? The RSA doesn't have records of them and if they would, the illegals would be hauled back to Mehico. Are the americans employing illegals paying enough salary to the illegals so that the taxes wouldn't cause them to run out of money to buy food?
It's kind of sad to complain about illegals not paying taxes if they aren't even capable to pay taxes due to how the system works. But then again, I don't know how the US tax system works, but I'd imagine you'd need to have records in place for it to work. Then again illegals are low paid workers; Even if they work around the clock they might just barely make enough money for food. Are you suggesting they should pay their taxes and work without food?
3. Do they have the time, money and chance to do that? I'd imagine it's pretty hard to get schooling for your children when you're an illegal, left outside the system.
2. & 4. If they're parasites, then how can they afford to send money back to their homeland? Of course this conflicts with 1. as well; The money could be used to pay taxes.
I'm not trying to defend the illegals, but I'm just finding so many conflicts with the arguments and the system. Alot of the arguments against the illegals are a result of the system, which renders them incapable to integrate.
Let's consider this: If all the illegals would be suddenly granted citizenship; Would anything change? Would they start to pay taxes? Would they educate their children?
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Steve,
From the condescending "Senor Saxman" remark, I think he was trying to make the point that granting illegals legal status wouldn't change their poverty level.
However he fails to realize that same article can be used on BOTH sides of the argument.
moot,
I love how people are instantly tosses me into the "Bleeding Heart" category without actually reading everything I'm saying.
I'm an advocate for easy to get in, but a LOT harder to STAY.
Get them registered, and then set up a system where they HAVE to show an improving understanding of American culture, a certain level of assimilation, and a certain level of progress in learning English over a period of time, or else they get shipped out. If they have children they MUST show a certain level of academic progress (lack of educational opportunities for their kids IS one reason that people are making the crossing) Make sure they understand that, yes, their culture is fine, but they HAVE to understand that they must make THEMSELVES part of the collective American culture. But rather than put it on the tax payers, the immigrant must make these necessary arrangements for THEMSELVES just like every other American.
The immigrant is directed by Immigration to settle in a given part of the country to spread them out rather than allowing large immigrant communities to develop. Perhaps require them to remain there for a "probationary" period, so if there's a problem (such as a failure to comply with the above) it's easier to locate them. Crack down on the practice of under-the-table payments by employers (the IRS must have ways to identify that sort of fraud).
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Originally posted by Fishu
1. Would the system let them pay taxes even if they wanted to? The RSA doesn't have records of them and if they would, the illegals would be hauled back to Mehico. Are the americans employing illegals paying enough salary to the illegals so that the taxes wouldn't cause them to run out of money to buy food?
It's kind of sad to complain about illegals not paying taxes if they aren't even capable to pay taxes due to how the system works. But then again, I don't know how the US tax system works, but I'd imagine you'd need to have records in place for it to work. Then again illegals are low paid workers; Even if they work around the clock they might just barely make enough money for food. Are you suggesting they should pay their taxes and work without food?
3. Do they have the time, money and chance to do that? I'd imagine it's pretty hard to get schooling for your children when you're an illegal, left outside the system.
2. & 4. If they're parasites, then how can they afford to send money back to their homeland? Of course this conflicts with 1. as well; The money could be used to pay taxes.
I'm not trying to defend the illegals, but I'm just finding so many conflicts with the arguments and the system. Alot of the arguments against the illegals are a result of the system, which renders them incapable to integrate.
Let's consider this: If all the illegals would be suddenly granted citizenship; Would anything change? Would they start to pay taxes? Would they educate their children?
1. Actually, anytime they do business with a legal business entitiy anywhere in the U.S., such as a gas station, or grocery store, they are paying sales tax of some sort. However, If they are working a legal job, in which they have proper documentation, They would also pay into Social Security, and Federal income tax. These can be a fair chunk of change. When they work 'under the table', so to speak, they will usually work for less than minimum wage, but since they keep all the money per hour, they take home as much as a legal person would. It's also common to see Illegals' and their family's in a sort of 'commune', wherein Multiple family's will share a house or apartment, so they can split the rent down as far as possible. They have plenty of other tactics for getting around the cost of living.
3.(You skipped 2, btw.) The way American law works, they can get schooling for their children very easily. They merely have to show up at the school office, show that they live in that school district, and be able to show an immunization card. After that, the school's take them in, irregardless of how full they already are.
For 2. and 4. Even though in some areas of the U.S. the cost of living is high, Like I said in the first, they have ways to get around it. Plenty of business's such as farms or ranches, have Extremely low-rent Migrant worker housing set up's, sometimes right at the place of work. Cheap used automobiles' abound in america, even though they may be fairly old or have high mileage. They live off of mostly basic staples' of food, such as rice, beans, etc. Plus, of course, Our social system's that we have, get used quite a bit to supplement their income, which is why most legal taxpayers are in such a furor about, in the first place. Honestly, it pisses me off, that the money I pay to taxes each day, some of that get's lost to Mexico. That is where the real claim that illegal aliens' are criminals' comes from.
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saxman.. the law is what it is. Every other person in the world has to live by it.. there are many many citizens of other countries that want to get in but...
they not only don't have a muddy ditch to cross but.. they have some morals and refuse to break our laws.
How is your "idealism" fair to them?
There are hundreds of illegals who die every year because "idealists" like yourself wink and look the other way...
How is your "idealism" fair to them?
countless thousands of these criminals commit sex crimes and murders and flee back across a border that you "idealists" look at as more of a suggestion than a border.
How is your "idealism" fair to the victims and US citizens?
Your idealism creates a new slavery.. a new class of modern slaves.
Your "idealism" is sickening to me. It says... I don't care about these people or anyone else so long as I get my lawn mowed for cheap and can spout my liberal ideals (and no one is allowed to look at em too close),.
And.. it is not as if there is not a solution that will not kill and harm people... the solution is a simple one. It is also a compassionate one, unlike your touchy feely mess that kills people and creates crime.
The solution is to arrest and give a mandatory jail time of one year to every person (including the beverly hills house wife with a maid and pool boy) ANY employer who knowingly (key word) hires an illegal.
jail a dozen or so of these total and worthless scum bag traitorous slave owning employers and the problem will go away... jesus won't come to look for work. jesus will tell his friends their is no work.
lazs
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Originally posted by john9001
a country without secure borders is not a country, it is open territory.
Boroda will be interested to hear this I'm sure.
LOL!
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You want to get rid of the borders? I am actually fine with that but get rid of benifeits too.. no socialism.. no free medical or schools or anything.. no taxes.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
You want to get rid of the borders? I am actually fine with that but get rid of benifeits too.. no socialism.. no free medical or schools or anything.. no taxes.
lazs
Throw in no laws, wild west style and I`m in.
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Illegal il·le·gal /ɪˈligəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-lee-guhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. forbidden by law or statute.
2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.:
All illegal imigrants should be sent back to there country of origin.(period)
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me too jackal... the point is.. the borders have reasons for being. Get rid of the reasons and I am all for getting rid of the borders. Let it be like the old west.
That was a nicer and more moral time in any case.
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
Boroda will be interested to hear this I'm sure.
LOL!
There's quite a difference between secure borders that hold people IN and secure borders that keep unwanted/illegal people out.
IIRC, Bermuda is pretty strong on the kind that keep people out? That's the kind the US needs too; what a coincidence.
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One of the dirty little secrets that bureaucrats and politicians don't like to talk about is this: illegals use false IDs and Social Security numbers to work and pay taxes, and their employers don't care if they are valid, so long as they have a number, any number, that's good enough. Tens of billions of dollars in taxes and Social Security are deducted and sent off quarterly to Washington and state governments, where it is dumped into a pool of money that no benefits will ever be drawn from because the accounts are "unknown."
Tens of billions of dollars that are worth almost double, since no one can collect from it. It's free money for the government with no obligations. So, the next time you wonder why enforcement by the government seems half-hearted, you'll know it's full-hearted greed.
The solution has been, and will always be, denial of the economic incentives of illegal immigration. The root cause of any problems a company or country faces are always management problems, not problem workers or people. The illegal immigration crisis is a management crisis in Washington DC.
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mexico is pretty strong at keeping people out too... they shoot people who try to enter their southern border illegally. They don't like poor people.
lazs
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Originally posted by Fishu
I'm not trying to defend the illegals, but I'm just finding so many conflicts with the arguments and the system. Alot of the arguments against the illegals are a result of the system, which renders them incapable to integrate.
The arguments against illegals are definitely a result of the system. The system says that they are supposed to follow guidelines to become legal american citizens.
When they disreguard those guidelines, they lose any right to be accepted, and to assimilate or be integrated into our culture.
Do i feel bad for people starving in poor countries. Yes.
Do i think that these people are desperate, and will break the known laws of the USA to try and remedy there problems. Yes
Do i feel it's my responsibility to foot the bill for these people once they break the law and enter this country. No
Do i think that the countries that they're fleeing from are responsiple for there own citizens, like we are with ours. Yes
This one i have no sympathy for though.
If your from a poor country, or even in a bad way financially here, and can barely afford food for youself or you and your spouse. Why make babies and expect someone else to provide for them?
As far as I know, there is a set limit on the amount of legal immigrants allowed into this country. Someone posted a video a while back where someone demostrated the strain of legal immigrants alone on the system using gum balls in a jar. Basically saying that even with legals the system is strained, and could eventually collapse. Then he went on to add the illegal immigrants into the equation and assured us that in the near future, at the rate they are coming in, we are basically screwed.
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Its not a question the beneficial contributions of illegals. They are here illegally while others follow the rules. Both political parties are culpable. Republicans and Democrats are courting the business and Latino votes and have done nothing. They talk tough on crime while ignoring the illegal drugs coming across our border. Talk jobs while allowing corporations move to the cheaper labor or bring cheap labor into the U.S.A. No secure border, no amnesty.
The idea that we can deport 12-20 million people is wishful thinking. Deporting 1 million a year will still take 12-20 years if no more come in. Therefore the border must be fixed first. The deportation capability numbers I have heard are in the range of 100 thousand.
The border must be secured before anything effective can be accomplished the the illegals inside our border. We don't need a fence on our southern border, we need a wall. 20 feet high, 30 feet wide heavily patrolled.
So how do we deport 12-20 million people and not look like 1930's Germany rounding up Jews? Start with the criminal element.
With a secure border the discussion of amnesty can be dealt with. The remaining millions will probably have to be integrated into society. Currently we have large group of non-citizens that are in a very vulnerable state. Not only vulnerable to criminals but to anyone who wants to make a dollar on a bad situation.
Don't tolerate double talk from our elected leader. They can do their job or get sacked!
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You don't have to deport anyone... once they can no longer work they will go home.
It is not as complex as some of you would love it to be.. there are no "gray areas" it is simple and it is black and white.
the simple is... arrest the employers and when there are no jobs for criminals... the criminals who only want jobs will go home. the criminals that will remain will be a much smaller number and much easier to deal with.
lazs
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You don't have to deport anyone... once they can no longer work they will go home.
It is not as complex as some of you would love it to be.. there are no "gray areas" it is simple and it is black and white.
the simple is... arrest the employers and when there are no jobs for criminals... the criminals who only want jobs will go home. the criminals that will remain will be a much smaller number and much easier to deal with.
lazs
Absolutely.
A border fence is just another pork barrel project to through tax dollars at. Simple, simple solution, as Rolex and Lazs note. Take away the economic incentives, have trouble finding a place to bunk and you're left living in a country with a crappy climate in most area that doesn't speak your native language.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
Absolutely.
A border fence is just another pork barrel project to through tax dollars at. Simple, simple solution, as Rolex and Lazs note. Take away the economic incentives, have trouble finding a place to bunk and you're left living in a country with a crappy climate in most area that doesn't speak your native language.
Charon
Yep the wall was just smoke and mirror BS from the politicians who have no interest in fixing this.
Prolly for the reasons Rolex posted.
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Originally posted by CHECKERS
! Here is what they cost us ......
The total cost is a whooping .
$ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR
This should just be considered war reparations, for our war of aggression against Mexico from 1846 to 1848.
Most of the west of our nation legally belongs to Mexico. The land was all stolen in an act of war. Once these states have a majority Mexican population, they can then vote to leave the union, and return to Mexico, where they rightfully belong.
Everyone else living in these states will need to then learn how to speak the Mexican national language. California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and parts of Kansas and Western Texas all need to be returned to Mexican rule.
SIG 220
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Yeah, sounds like a swell idea! :lol
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recycling the illegal alien dollar.
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Originally posted by SIG220
This should just be considered war reparations, for our war of aggression against Mexico from 1846 to 1848.
Most of the west of our nation legally belongs to Mexico. The land was all stolen in an act of war. Once these states have a majority Mexican population, they can then vote to leave the union, and return to Mexico, where they rightfully belong.
Everyone else living in these states will need to then learn how to speak the Mexican national language. California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and parts of Kansas and Western Texas all need to be returned to Mexican rule.
SIG 220
LMAO the most absurd arguement I've seen yet.
Probobly half the countries in the world have borders that were formed by act of war of which one was the agressor at the time.
Somehow I think the statute of limitations is up on that.
And were those international laws even in place when trhis occured?
You planning on giving back your home to one of the dozen or so tribes whom your home "legally" belongs to that was "stolen"?
:rolleyes:
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the US paid mexico for that land, it was part of the peace treaty.
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Originally posted by SIG220
This should just be considered war reparations, for our war of aggression against Mexico from 1846 to 1848.
Most of the west of our nation legally belongs to Mexico. The land was all stolen in an act of war. Once these states have a majority Mexican population, they can then vote to leave the union, and return to Mexico, where they rightfully belong.
Everyone else living in these states will need to then learn how to speak the Mexican national language. California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and parts of Kansas and Western Texas all need to be returned to Mexican rule.
SIG 220
They can't even manage to fairly govern the country they have...Why should we give them more???
It's why they lost CA, AZ, NM, and all of their other claimed territory in the first place.
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we are like a bunch of old ladies who put out bird feeders and now all upset about all the damn birds around...
then they say that there is no solution... when all you have to do is stop putting food in the feeders.
no citizenship unless one parent is a citizen.. no schooling for illegals. no welfare.. no state or federal aid programs for illegals... throw the slave owner, traitor employers in prison.
end of problem.. It will go away like it never happened in less than two years.
Bring back the brasero program. No children allowed. they can stay with grandma. Housing on site.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
no citizenship unless one parent is a citizen.. no schooling for illegals. no welfare.. no state or federal aid programs for illegals... throw the slave owner, traitor employers in prison.
:aok
I think it would be a step in the right direction if some prosceutor got some testostrone and arrested and charged with aiding and abetting a Mayor or Governor who hands out ID to illegals.
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Originally posted by lazs2
we are like a bunch of old ladies who put out bird feeders and now all upset about all the damn birds around...
then they say that there is no solution... when all you have to do is stop putting food in the feeders.
no citizenship unless one parent is a citizen.. no schooling for illegals. no welfare.. no state or federal aid programs for illegals... throw the slave owner, traitor employers in prison.
end of problem.. It will go away like it never happened in less than two years.
Bring back the brasero program. No children allowed. they can stay with grandma. Housing on site.
lazs
It IS what's wrong, Lasz, but I'm afraid that Business coalitions' of all sizes, shapes, and bank accounts' have so thoroughly bought their way into our Gov't. that simply throwing illegal employers' in Prison isn't likely to happen. Unless another lobbying party that can raise much more money than the business coalitions' and buy back the votes (That never should have been bought in the first place, they belong to the constituents) to put this country back on the right track.
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Vote Ron Paul in. He'll toss big business graft right out the window!
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well... when I started talking about this "solution" several years ago I had to argue it to people and got very little support.
Now, some politicians are on to it and at least paying lip service to such a solution.. There have been raids on business and it has always worked out great.. a meat packing plant loses 100 illegals.. the next day they have 100 legal workers to replace em.
Why do I need an instant background check to buy a gun but there is none for work? Is it harder to check to see if someone is using a bogus ss card than it is to run a complex background on me?
Is it more difficult for the cop to arrest the guy at lowes who is loading 10 wets into the back of his truck than it is for him to call backup and get three cars and 6 guys to pull me over because I am not wearing a helmet.. and I get to watch the wets go by as I sit on the side of the road?
If those laws are worth ignoring.. then why not ignore all the laws? we certainly have too damn many.
lazs
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If those laws are worth ignoring.. then why not ignore all the laws? we certainly have too damn many.
That's what makes this such a dangerous situation-They keep putting laws on the books which nibble away at the constitution a little more each HR. I'm worried they won't actually enforce them until they have all of the laws in place that they want, because Nobody yells and screams about a constitutionally-violating law that isn't enforced. They slip in under the radar, get all of their ducks in a row, so to speak, THEN you see them come door to door, with warrentless search and seizures, and an agenda to make the country safe-for them to do with as they will.
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I like the fence idea because, unlike extra border agents or National Guard soldiers, the FENCE can't have its funding yanked after it is in place
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Originally posted by bj229r
I like the fence idea because, unlike extra border agents or National Guard soldiers, the FENCE can't have its funding yanked after it is in place
Yeah, but when you consider people cutting it with dykes to make a hole to get through, or other kinds of maliciousness to tear it down, the Fence might get pretty expensive in maintenance.
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Here's another problem that is faced with employers & illegals, and why we have to go further to the top to fix the problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
Now I know this is kind of old, but when you watch it, you see the kind of problems that we face-an inactive Dept. of Justice, and a Gov't. turning a blind eye. This **** makes me sick.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Yeah, but when you consider people cutting it with dykes to make a hole to get through, or other kinds of maliciousness to tear it down, the Fence might get pretty expensive in maintenance.
That's why you electrify it. It makes it kinda inconvenient for the guy cutting it. If you do it in sections with individual solar charged units with a reporting feature, not only will it be economical to run, you'll know straight away when and where someone is trying to breach it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
we are like a bunch of old ladies who put out bird feeders and now all upset about all the damn birds around...
Bird feeders in California.....
From a California school teacher - - -
"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal immigration, there are some things that you should be aware of:
I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a large southern California high school which is designated a Title 1 school, meaning that its students average lower socioeconomic
and income levels.
Most of the schools you are hearing about, South Gate High, Bell Gardens ,Huntington Park , etc., where these students are protesting, are also Title 1 schools.
Title 1 schools are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free breakfast, I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and cereal bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud. The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being dumped in the trash uneaten. ( OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK )
I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones . The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage pregnant girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the inconvenience of having to arrange for baby-sitters or having family watch their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding for the upcoming year even though there was little need foranything; my budget was already substantial. I ended up buying newcomputers for the computer learning center, half of which, one monthlater, have been carved with graffiti by the appreciative students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free education inAmerica . (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)
I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant studentshere in the country less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers , calling them "Put as" ( potatos ) and throwing things , that the teachers were in tears.
Free medical, free education, free food, day care
etc., etc, etc. Is it any wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand rights, privileges and entitlements?
To those who want to point out h ow much these illegal immigra ntscontribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener and housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in the real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE costs.
Higher insurance, medical facilities closing, higher medical costs, more crime, lower standards of education in our schools,overcrowding, new diseases etc., etc, etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.
We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because we won't have the guts to enforce it . Does anyone in their right mi nd really think they will voluntarily leave and return?
It does, however, have everything to do with culture: A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts children getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses toassimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried about " political correctness"that we don't have the will to do anything about it.
If this makes your blood boil , as it did mine, forward this to everyone you know.
CHEAP LABOR? Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?
Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.
Consumers don't want expensive produce.
Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.
But the bottom line is cheap labor. The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth , a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as "cheap labor."
Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.0 0 or 6.00/hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return, he gets an " earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.
He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent .
He qualifies for food stamps.
He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.
His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.
He requires bilingual teachers and b ooks.
He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.
If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled , they qualify for SSI. Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare. All of this is at (our) taxpayer's expense
He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.
Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.
He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.
Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.
The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.
Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT! Wake up people!
THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS WE SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES FOR EITHER PARTY. 'AND WHEN THEY LIE TO US AND DON'T DO AS THEY SAY, WE SHOULD REPLACE THEM AT ONCE!'
Joni Garrett{L&
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Originally posted by SD67
Vote Ron Paul in. He'll toss big business graft right out the window!
Im a conservative democrat whos heading more and more (along many of my republican friends) to independant. Most of the candadates are pedaling the same old message, catering to the special interests. While most of us in the political middle are being ignored.
Ron Paul is gaining steam and making a lot of sense. :furious
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What is a conservative democrat?
Is that like "jumbo shrimp"?
lazs
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I have a few Mexican families around my house. One family that I know has just bought a $750,000 house they have 5 kids they drive new cars. The father is illegal the house is in the uncles name. The father has been deported several times he just comes back within a day or two. His employer just puts him back to work, decent job as a mechanic good pay. Three days ago I saw the mother in the store actually got behind them in the check out line. When all the sudden she pulls out a hand full of W.I.C. . The checker takes close to 10-15 min to process them all. She got a full basket of goodies and I never saw a creditcard, bank card, or cash change hands. She says thank grabs her receipt and goes. No charge. My girlfriend is a nurse at the neighborhood clinic. She sees the same family there regular and they get no charge for medical. Matter fact the whole place is full of Mexicans both illegal and legal getting free services. When I go there I have to pay. What a lode of BS. :mad: :furious :mad: :furious
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Fill the holes in the border with buckshot.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Fill the holes in the border with buckshot.
:rofl
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Fill the holes in the border with buckshot.
I'd just rather US citizens living along the border deal with intruders with vigilante justice. They're capable, willing, and they know the realities of the problem better than any law enforcement body or big-city bureaucrats.
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Originally posted by lazs2
What is a conservative democrat?
Is that like "jumbo shrimp"?
lazs
More like a unicorn.
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I can see a new revolution coming to the USA.
American Citizens are going to band together to take their country back
Illegal Mexicans will find there jobs gone, whole families will be turned out of their houses and sent back to Mexico. The Borders will be secured, their houses will be sold and the proceeds forwarded to them. (one cannot after all be an arse about it and "steal" their property, even though forfeiture is perfectly within the realms of gains from criminal activity)
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Hmm.. heard the democrat candidates on NPR on and off yesterday... listened on illegals... er... "undocumented"
they are getting roasted.. they have stuck their big wet fingers in the air and don't like the way the wind is blowing.. they were blaming the republicans for making the whole thing an issue...
But... when their feet are held to the fire.. they are talking about arresting the employers.. when I sent them letters to that effect a couple of years ago.. they all said it was not a good idea... go figure.
But... they are scared witless of losing one "hispanic" vote sooooooo.. they all said that they would leave open "a path to legalization for the 12 million "hard working" illegals here now"
What the hell does that mean? even the NPR person said "but.. if you sign a get tough on employers act the minute you are in office.. won't that leave 12 million of these people without jobs?"
None... nada not a one of the democrats would answer.. they kept repeating the mantra... "leave a path for legalization".
What this means is... Amnesty. amnesty for 12 million. They just won't say the word.
I feel that we have caused these people enough pain and used em as slaves long enough.. it is time for a mercy killing... arrest the employers of slave labor and throw em in jail... the 12 million will simply leave on their own..
It will be rough.. legal kids (who should never have been here in the first place) will have to either be raised by someone else or go back to mexico.. maybe a mexico they have never even seen.
That is both the illegals fault for being criminals... and ours for looking the other way. but it isn't going to get better for anyone without some pain at this point.
lazs
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Originally posted by SD67
I can see a new revolution coming to the USA.
American Citizens are going to band together to take their country back
Illegal Mexicans will find there jobs gone, whole families will be turned out of their houses and sent back to Mexico. The Borders will be secured, their houses will be sold and the proceeds forwarded to them. (one cannot after all be an arse about it and "steal" their property, even though forfeiture is perfectly within the realms of gains from criminal activity)
Hell ya start in my backyard :) and forget giving the money back they got here illegal, they worked illegally, bought the house using the illegally obtained funds, thus they own an illegal house.
I'm ready to move in I'll give him 30cents to the buck about the amount he has lowered my wages. Funny thing is you used to go down to the street corner get a wetback go home pay him for his days labor generously minimum wage. Now they try to negotiate before they will work for 12 bucks an hour. And then they just loaf. I can do the work of 3 mexicans and should be paid likewise. I say send them all back. Even the mothers that crossed illegally to have there kids, get rid of the kids too.
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Illegal Mexican:
A North American couple who had unlawfully entered Mexico for the soul purpose of seeking a better life, bearing children, doing the jobs that "lazy" Mexicans do not want to do in order to send Mucho Grande Pesos back across the border to deprived family members still residing in poverished North America.
Did I miss something?
Mac
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lol mac
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Originally posted by SD67
lol mac
Nuthin personal and not attacking you or your sqd, but your avtar looks like a sombrero at 1st glance. Had to get my glasses
hehe :cool:
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:lol
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I'm ready to move in I'll give him 30cents to the buck about the amount he has lowered my wages. Funny thing is you used to go down to the street corner get a wetback go home pay him for his days labor generously minimum wage. Now they try to negotiate before they will work for 12 bucks an hour. And then they just loaf. I can do the work of 3 mexicans and should be paid likewise. I say send them all back. Even the mothers that crossed illegally to have there kids, get rid of the kids too.
I'm shocked. You mean doing one of those jobs "Americans don't want to do." I though our insourced cheap labor was ONLY used to hand pick agricultural products in soul scarring conditions under the blazing sun. :)
Charon
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I am also shocked by bingalongs post.. it seems... angry.
That is fine but if he is going to get em all pissedoff by stealing their land and such...
He might find that he "needs" some automatic weapons and maybe a .50 along with the rest of us when things get touchy.
lazs
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Originally posted by Charon
I'm shocked. You mean doing one of those jobs "Americans don't want to do." I though our insourced cheap labor was ONLY used to hand pick agricultural products in soul scarring conditions under the blazing sun. :)
Charon
Yes and make your bed for you and make your breakie and maybe a wipe? I bet you have a bidet ;) Sorry, I'm a blue collar worker Charon :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by SIG220
This should just be considered war reparations, for our war of aggression against Mexico from 1846 to 1848.
Most of the west of our nation legally belongs to Mexico. The land was all stolen in an act of war. Once these states have a majority Mexican population, they can then vote to leave the union, and return to Mexico, where they rightfully belong.
Everyone else living in these states will need to then learn how to speak the Mexican national language. California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, and parts of Kansas and Western Texas all need to be returned to Mexican rule.
SIG 220
troll.... has to be:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lazs2
I am also shocked by bingalongs post.. it seems... angry.
That is fine but if he is going to get em all pissedoff by stealing their land and such...
He might find that he "needs" some automatic weapons and maybe a .50 along with the rest of us when things get touchy.
lazs
I said I would pay :)
I certinaly would not. I'm not scared of them as you are lazzy.
you never heard of a mexican wrench?
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Yes and make your bed for you and make your breakie and maybe a wipe? I bet you have a bidet Sorry, I'm a blue collar worker Charon
I think you misunderstood my sarcasm. I have done my fair share of blue collar work starting with my summers in high school/college working for my dad installing conveyor systems and then about 3 years full time in metal assembly and light fabricating work after I partied myself out of college the first time around. Certainly no disrespect intended. In fact, life would have been sweet during the house flipping market days if my skills were more carpentry than sheet metal work. I could make a great house out of tube stock or angle iron and 1/4" plate.
My point was, I notice an awful lot of illegals doing carpentry work, plumbing, manufacturing, roofing, siding, hospitality -- both skilled and unskilled labor -- jobs that you used to be able to earn a good, and fair living at. Jobs Americans want at a fair salary. Because I now write and edit for a living it's hard to outsource or insource my position to a foreign national, but I wouldn't really be surprised if someone tried one of these days. I think it sucks, and shows how our current "free trade" is more like "manage trade" and if you cant outsource it to cheap labor you insource the cheap labor and let the taxpayer foot the benefits package.
Charon
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bingalong.. I don't know how you can say I am scared of em. My girlfriend is of mexican decent and here parents came here legally.. my grand daughter is half.
I suggest a peaceful way to get rid of em that is already the law and you suggest drastic and most likely.. illegal methods based on anger and I am the one who is scared?
Hell.. I am ready for anything...so long as you don't take away my right to defend myself... what about you? what you gonna do? call 911 after you get a good riot going because of your idiotic suggestions?
lazs
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and as has been noted.. it is not just the slave labor jobs... it is high paying (or once high paying) skilled jobs the illegals are doing.
when they ran em all out of a packing plant.. the plant was staffed in a couple of days with legal citizens. same would happen for construction.
Just like global warming crap... people love to exaggerate the bad things that could happen.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
bingalong.. I don't know how you can say I am scared of em. My girlfriend is of mexican decent and here parents came here legally.. my grand daughter is half.
I suggest a peaceful way to get rid of em that is already the law and you suggest drastic and most likely.. illegal methods based on anger and I am the one who is scared?
Hell.. I am ready for anything...so long as you don't take away my right to defend myself... what about you? what you gonna do? call 911 after you get a good riot going because of your idiotic suggestions?
lazs
I didnt suggest it I just agreed and added my take to a suggestion.
Yep I'm tired of them taking work out of my hands and I am angry.
I have this conversation a lot with a best friend of mine who's an engineer. He's WT cheap labor guy, works for a very large company.
I tell him first it was the fields then restaurants and hotels then skilled labor. After this last boom it wont be long before the kids of the illegals, who's education you and I paid for, they take his 120k+ & bennies white collar job for 60k or less.
Maybe that will change his tune when he becomes part of the cheap labor force.
Maybe oil can be analyzed cheaper:O or more cheaply as the case maybe.
You white collar guys are next. Then we will really see some uproar.
Why cant Mexico fix their country. Mexico is a very rich country. Why don't the mexicans revolt.
Another best friend of mine is a Mexican we grew up together. His dad was in the marines as a Seabee. My friend is just as American as I am and I love him and his very extended family very much. He cannot stand the illegals. He feels they give him a bad name. I tell him "no they don't" he says "tell my boss" who tells him "I could get three of you for what you're getting paid."
I am part of the {once hi paid} crowd. I really like the guy who said fill the holes in the fence with a shotgun. Enforce the boarders. Work will come back. Not to mention make us safer. Enforce the law with the employers. As for the 50 or the auto, I don't need it for the illegals workers. Now the gangs that's a different story, but they aren't taking my jobs, their just helping to dumb America with dope. They have there own culling technics.
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you are directing your anger at the wrong people.. the real enemy is the person putting out the food in the bird feeder.
The real criminal traitors are the employers. How does a roofer who is honest and patriotic compete with the scum bag that hires illegals under the table?
sure.. the illegals are criminals too but take away the jobs and they will go home.. the only ones who will cross after that will be the ones that deserve to be shotgunned cause they will be real criminal.. hard core smugglers.
The poor ahole looking to get some money or a better life for his family will stay home and maybe... just maybe.. he will work to make his own country more like ours.
lazs
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(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff232/Tigeress_ah/ImmigrantherohonoredbyUSandMexico.jpg)
Manuel Jesus Cordova Soberanes
Without getting into the debate on the pros and cons of illegal Mexican aliens, a debate I have heard since my early childhood in a dusty Texas town 160 miles from the Mexican border, let me just say that Manuel Jesus Cordova has been officially honored and US efforts are in progress to give a special visa to Manuel to allow him to work in the US.
Even though his presence in the Arizona desert was illegal, he did the right thing in view of a young human life in danger.
See --> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22101067/
Excerpts: Beatriz Lopez Gargallo, the Mexican consul general for Nogales, said. "And this man, this hero, did what men of honor do in all nations and in all cultures."
The district director for U.S. Representative Raul Grijalva said Cordova deserved the opportunity to come to America to work and that the congressman plans to introduce legislation that will let him get a special visa. Such legislation rarely passes, but Grijalva aide Ruben Reyes said it was the only way they knew of to show their thanks.
TIGERESS
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Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread in it's entirety but I've lived in Phoenix long enough to know that illegal immigration is a problem.
With that said....
I lived in Oklahoma from 96-2001. Tulsa area. I'm headed from Phoenix to Tulsa in January (job transfer) because I want a better life for my children. One that doesn't include the fear of criminal acts against us by an undocumented population that has overrun this city.I am not saying they commit all the crime, just that we live near one of the largest neighborhoods that is 90% populated by undocumented immigrants. Its called the Greenway Square. Any local will know where I am talking about. Auto theft and Identity theft rates here in Phoenix tower far above that of any other city in the nation. Not to mention the necessity to learn Spanish just to communicate to anyone here anymore. There are many other reasons we are moving. Better opportunities with my company, lower cost of living and better schools range up there pretty high as well.
Oklahoma passed a pretty strict law concerning illegal immigrant workers that went into effect in November. It's been tough going for this law so far as (and this baffles me) the illegal immigrants work the government to get this law recalled. How an illegal immigrant gets any sort of say in the Laws of this country is beyond me.
You can read all about the new law HERE (http://www.kotv.com/special/immigration/)
Reading in the Tulsa news today, I find that now some big money companies, whom make big money due to a low cost "illegal" workforce, are changing the minds of some Republicans in Oklahoma office. This is ridiculous. They toss in some poor farmer that wont have a crop this year due to the loss of his, probably, 2 illegal workers. He's probably the same guy that sells produce on the side of the road at Highway 20 and 145th East Ave. Thats some thriving business that's going under there [/satire].
HERE (http://www.kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=141202)is the article.
My answer to the big companies. Find legal workers and quit yer cryin'. Plain and simple.
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