Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DamnedRen on December 01, 2007, 01:16:08 PM
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Lotsa talk about honor and all that. I was thinking perhaps there should be some talk about fighting in the Virtual Sky of AH2. That being said ithought I'd start a list of figher combat tactics. These are by no means the end all of tactics nor do they originate from me personally but I figured the new folks might want to think about them prior to engaging another fighter.
1) Take drop tanks (DT). Use WEP while burning off the DT's to quickly get to your cruise altitude. Cruise altitude is the altitude you feel comfortable that you can engage enemy fighters.
2) Decide on how much gas you need. Only take what you need. There is an old saying amongst vets. Tell the new guy to only take half of what he think he needs since he will either run out of ammo or die before he ever runs out of gas. It is true that the plane carrying less fuel turns a bit better than the same plane with more gas. However, a vet carring alot of gas with a good knowledge of tactics can make a few turns with a lighter plane and get a kill. Pilot skill plays a role so if two guys face each other with the same skills level in the same plane but one with a lighter fuel load then he may have an advantage. However, one may be in a position to negate that advantage during the setup or the fight. Here's a few possible rules of thumb (add yer own);
a) Spits- take the slipper tank. It will be gone before you ever get to the enemy. Go home with 1/4 tank.
b) Pony's and big gas haulers - DT and 50% in most cases. 75% fuel if no DT's are available. Go hom with 1/4 tank.
c) Laffie- this one is special. Take a full fuel load. When you hit center tank go home when it gets to 3/4 tank.
3) Speed is life. Speed gives you lots of options. The reason I said in "1)" to climb to altitude is cruise speed is quite a bit higher than climb speed. You climb out of an airfield at 190-225 mph. You plane will cruise at 290+ depending on the plane. At cruise speed you can maneuver, go up, dip the nose in zero G for a few seconds and be doing 350-400 mph. Climb speed means you take longer to accomplish a maneuver.
4) Be aggressive. If you commit to the fight then do it! Giving the guy an even break means you are giving him time to recover. If you don't want to send him to the tower then don't attack him. If you do any less then expect yourself to be the one back in the tower.
5) Know you planes limitations. Especially compared to your opponents plane. Use your Planes strengths to fly to you opponents planes weaknesses. There are alot of differences in planes flying characteristics. Too many to name here.
6) Along with number "5)" is learn tactics. Learn how to employ those tactics to your advantange. A good stick might be able to fly around the world but get shot down 10 seconds into a fight. Reading about tactics is good. Getting a birds eye view is better. Spend some time with a trainer. They know tactics.
7) Know when the fight is going south. You will know if it's not going your way. Get out and come back into it with at least equal or better advantage.
8) Fight up. Sounds simple. It is simple especially when you learn tactics. One guy called it cherry picking. If you fight up and the other guy ends up under then you own the fight. Go kill him.
9) Get in close. When you think your close get in closer. Ranges of 100-200 are good. 300-400 is throwing ammo away. However, if you know you can send the guy back to the tower then do it. My convergence is set to 200 yds. I normally shot at or inside that range.
10) If you come over multiple enemy planes always shoot the high one down first. Do not follow him down below his buds. When he's gone go after the next highest. Fight up.
11) If you fly with a wingman and get in keep the presssure on the bad guy. The object is to drain his energy while you maintain yours.
12) Combat spread with a wingman is just that. You are spread out to force the bad guy to chose one of you. That frees up your wingman to engage. Line abreast works best for most encounters. The reason is if you are higher than your wingman I guarantee you are the one going to be attacked. (Attack high guy first). If he attack then fights up the low guy can't engage. If you fly in trail then you force the bad guy to go through both of you. This normally frees up the lead plane to pull back into the bad guy without fear of being the target. In trail helps you somewhat but normally causes the guy to blow right on by and off into the wild blue. In line abreast formation the guy normally stays in the fight.
13) If you get attacked and someone asks if you want help go for it. But, never fly right at the guy helping you. You must give him turning room (angles) to saddle up and kill the bad guy. Lead the guy across your helpers nose from let to right, up/down but never right at him.
14) A dogfight normally has one guy's nose pointed at the other guys tail. If someone attacks you then turn into him so he doesn't get the opportunity to get his nose on your tail.
15) Angles is nothing more than the turning room required to get on the bad guys 6. You want to gain angles on the other guy while denying him angles on you.
16) A drag is not a drag if you die performing one. Well, it might be a drag if you die.....
17) SA... use your map. Alot! The guy showing a -3000 is the one you wanna watch. Do a continuous threat analysis and get out when the threat gets too high. You can always come back.
18) Before you do anything always get your bearings and know which way is home. Every few minutes confirm which way is home. You want to head out instead of under them bad guys.
19) Conveyor belts - all countries have them. You see them as a line of planes going from one field to another. They're usually guys racing back from just dying so they will be around 8k or so. If you must exit then make sure you are headed from your inbound conveyor belt and not theirs. If you wanna get in some nice attacks go alil above their conveyor belts and follow the train in, shooting them as you come in. Maintain heading an you end up under your own belt.
20) If you're on a jabo. overfly the target then get in with the exit toward home...not the other way. That's where the bad guys have been flying to get some alt on the inbounds.
21) Stay alive. Let the other guy die for his country. You'd be surprised that you can go fight, get kills and live. It's not all that difficult.
22) Always attack from advantage if possible, be it alt or speed.
23) If you want honor in the game think about the guy coming to help you. He is coming in to maybe get killed trying to help you get out of a bad situation. Was it because you knowingly put yourself there? Hmmmm.....
24) A lil more on honor. Honor the country you happen to be flying in at that moment. It might only be for a day or so but you chose to fly there in the game. If you leave that country and go to another then what secrets were in the previous one stay there. It's a game. Play the game. Don't game the game.
25) Salautes. I normally give em to those who salute me. Most of the time I don't have time cause Im in a fight or answering 100 questions on private chat. I normally don't give them for a fight. I get in and shoot the guy down or not. That's nice but I'm already thinking about the next fight. Sorry.
Ref the game...it's a great game with lots for everyone. There are sometimes issues about honor and such.
In the early days of these fighter sims peer pressure meant alot. Some guy starts acting like a jerk and he got shunned. That's changed although squelch does wonders. If the guy has no one to whine at he evertually goes away or becomes a part of the community. Try it sometime....
I said at the start this is not an end all for fighter tactics but a beginning. Feel free to add to the knowledge base for the now folks.
Hope this helps
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IN
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I don't know Ren.
I still like the "up from a capped field and turn left until you die" tactics.
"They" say it's much more "fun".
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Originally posted by Blooz
I don't know Ren.
I still like the "up from a capped field and turn left until you die" tactics.
"They" say it's much more "fun".
LOL make sure you turn left so I know who Im looking at :)
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I'm sure you already know this Ren, but I just want to point out that drop tanks, as you mention for use in your first point, are not always the best option in some planes. In the F4U1-A for example, the pylons remain after the tanks have been dropped, creating increased drag even after release. With a plane like that, it's better to just take a little more than you need internally. Of course the later war planes, such as the 51, have a clean release and do not have this problem.
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Actually I take DT's and 1/2 tank of gas in a Hog. It turns on a dime and the drag from the dt points is so minimal in a fight that it doesn't impead my flying at all. If you are fighting at an enemy field that is 25 miles away then you have enough gas for everything you wanna do (read turn fight).
If I come in a Hog I came for a knife fight :)
Ren
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Nice tips from DamnedRen. :aok
I'll give anyone a double salute for taking the time to type that out, I'm sure this will be a great help for anyone who wants to learn more about air combat tactics. :aok
, Kazaa.
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Ren:
Nice write up. A lot of very useful information in there. Thanks for taking the time to give us your insights.
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Ren
Hope you don't mind I copied and pasted this article to our squad site. You always give sound advice.
http://www.freewebs.com/yanksfan001/newsandarticles.htm
Thanks, Don
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Originally posted by trotter
I'm sure you already know this Ren, but I just want to point out that drop tanks, as you mention for use in your first point, are not always the best option in some planes. In the F4U1-A for example, the pylons remain after the tanks have been dropped, creating increased drag even after release. With a plane like that, it's better to just take a little more than you need internally. Of course the later war planes, such as the 51, have a clean release and do not have this problem.
hhm....could this be why i constantly get outturned in my 38 by other 38's? i always take drops, and lose them for combat
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just my opinion here...
taking 50% and Dts in a plane that pylons impead performance in is foolish, they built the plane with internal fuel tanks, use them.
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I think the point is that getting caught in a fight with more than 50% fuel is more of a disadvantage than the small drag from pylons in an angles or energy fight.
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The only time you've got too much gas is when you're on fire.
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rgr that. lets ignore the pylon drag for a moment.
P51-D
while he on 50%+DTs is chugging along on WEP heating the engine up just to climb to a decent altitude of say 8,500ft, me on 75% clean is pulling away level 10,000ft at cruise settings and i didnt have to burn any wep.
most small area sorties this is when you get jumped. 4-6 mins out of base when youve got around 7-10k. droptanker now dumps his extra fuel (in a war? what about rationing?) and goes level 9,000ft 280mph with no WEP.
75% dude 320mph on cruise for the last 1.5 minutes at 10,000ft is now running at about 60-65% fuel and has a clean aircraft with a nice cool engine.
just a personal preferance, but i wont really ever take drop tanks unless i need over 100% for the flight.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
The only time you've got too much gas is when you're on fire.
:rofl :rofl
Yeah Zeke pilots tend to become bottle rockets.
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I rarely use WEP on climb-out, especially if I'm flying a fighter with a 5 minute WEP limit. Inasmuch as it takes 15 minutes to cool down the engine to recover the full five minutes, I limit WEP use to takeoff and combat.
In reference to takeoff, I always use WEP on the takeoff run. I leave it on until the temperature needle reaches normal operating temperature. This gets you to 2,000 feet faster (in the event a bad guy shows up) without penalty. The engine warms up at the same rate in WEP as it does at MIL power. Basically, it's free altitude.
Of course, in the real world, you wouldn't be taking off until after the engine was a normal operating temperature.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
rgr that. lets ignore the pylon drag for a moment.
P51-D
while he on 50%+DTs is chugging along on WEP heating the engine up just to climb to a decent altitude of say 8,500ft, me on 75% clean is pulling away level 10,000ft at cruise settings and i didnt have to burn any wep.
droptanker now dumps his extra fuel (in a war? what about rationing?)
rationing is for those at home not pilots in battle!:aok
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Ren,
I will be putting this on the VF-31's website asap.
I have read everything you wrote on "Rues for Virtual Life" & I totally agree.
I have flown with you in the MA & I truly believe flying w/ a trainer or someone who knows what they are doing & is willing to explain things is a great asset to becoming better pilot.
Be Aggressive: In our squad we call it "John Wayneing it"
Having the advantage is key in any situation.
SA: threat analysis is always a good thing when entering a fight.
<>
=WW=,
I too use WEP when taking off.
<>
Kermit de frog,
Are you a post whöer?
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Originally posted by Rolex
I think the point is that getting caught in a fight with more than 50% fuel is more of a disadvantage than the small drag from pylons in an angles or energy fight.
Not every fighter suffers a drag penalty from fuel and bomb pylons. P-38s, P-47s, and P-51s do not as they are standard equipment, already factored into their basic drag model. Adding rockets WILL add drag and slow these fighters a bit.
The F4U-1D, -1C and -4 do not suffer an additional drag penalty either. The F4U-1 and -1A do as they do not have pylons or racks as standard equipment. Adding rockets adds the racket tabs, which adds drag. Same goes for the F6F-5.
The Ki-61, Ki-84 and Niki do not suffer added drag for bombs. There are others as well. Again, pylons are standard equipment and factored into their drag models.
Typically, I'll fly an F6F-5 or P-47 with 50% fuel and a drop tank. In a P-38 or F4U-1D, I'll take a drop tank and a 1k bomb. This adds flexibility, allowing for a change of purpose if need be.
I'm fond of flying a short clip 6-gun P-47D-40 with 50% and a drop tank. With the tank off and the two less guns, this Jug can climb very well and will surprise many with its ability to maneuver. There's enough ammunition and fuel to get six kills before RTB.
My regards,
Widewing
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Words of truth.
With respect to drop tanks... there are those who will argue that to take a drop tank when you take less than 100% internal fuel is "gaming the game", as it wasn't the practice in real life. I myself neither strongly agree or disagree, as arena play departs from real life so dramatically with a 2x multiplier and 25 miles between fields that whether a player using drop tanks has a full internal fuel or not is meaningless (IMO). I myself tend to like to climb clean, so I usually don't take them on the plane I usually fly (-1A), and will take a little more internal instead, and plan my fight accordingly - but that is purely a personal choice.
But I did want to mention that taking 50% and a drop may cause someone to give you flak at some point.
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Not every fighter suffers a drag penalty from fuel and bomb pylons. P-38s, P-47s, and P-51s do not as they are standard equipment, already factored into their basic drag model.
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Where did you get this info? At least as it relates to how HTC designed the P-38, P47, and P51 flight models with regards to the underwing stores pylons .
Thanks
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Originally posted by Yeager
Not every fighter suffers a drag penalty from fuel and bomb pylons. P-38s, P-47s, and P-51s do not as they are standard equipment, already factored into their basic drag model.
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Where did you get this info? At least as it relates to how HTC designed the P-38, P47, and P51 flight models with regards to the underwing stores pylons .
Thanks
I believe that Pyro has discussed this in the past. However, the easiest way to determine if there are drag increases is to actually test the aircraft.
Take any model P-47, P-51, P-38 or the F4U-1D. Load bombs, or fuel tanks, or a combination where allowed. Take off, and pitch off all of the external stores. Now, do a max speed run (MIL power till it maxs out, then WEP). Record the maximum speed attained. Repeat the test, but don't take any ordnance or fuel tanks. Record the maximum speed. You will see that it is exactly the same.
This exists because the pylons are standard equipment, not add-on racks. Thus, they are factored into the basic drag model.
Do the same testing with the F4U-1A or an Fw 190A-5 and you'll see about a 6 mph loss of speed compared to clean. These racks were add-on equipment, not factored into the basic drag model.
Moreover, the racks cannot be jettisoned.
This is why the F4U-1 is faster than the F4U-1D... It's cleaner, not having pylons as standard equipment. However, add a bomb or drop tank to the -1 and after its dropped, you'll find it no longer has a speed advantage over the -1D.
There is actual, real world test data of P-51s with and without the pylons. Naturally, it's faster without them. However, I cannot think of one instance where P-51s flew in combat with the pylons removed. I'm sure HTC investigated that too. Therefore, you cannot omit them in the game.
My regards,
Widewing
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LOL @ all this technical jargin....
Not one bit of drag makes a bit of differance in ANY plane I fly...as I die anyway....the fact that drag is there or not wouldnt help me one bit.
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i fly the jug a lot and the p51
my base operating alt is 15k most of the time
my usual load is 50% drops in p51 or 75%
or 75% one middle drop
or 50% 2 75gal drops in p47n
i like haviing over 40 min of fuel, i like to just cruise around a lot too.
in the jug i never drop the middle tank until im engaged defensive or its dry.
in the 51 i drop tanks as soon as i get to my target area.
i usualy up from a base away so its no big deal with no wep on climb, i just go get a drink or something. i only use wep to climb when super heavy with ord and then only to about ten or 12k.
and on fuel weight diference take a zero for instance it s been flying for a while and has about ten min fuel remaining and meets another just upping with 50% in a turning fight the first one will own the other. pilots being equal of course.
expereinced that first hand.