Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LePaul on December 02, 2007, 12:46:25 AM
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I've got a 40 year old furnace running at about 78% efficiency. While new windows, new roof and other home improvements have reduced my heating oil usage significantly, I couldn't help but be impressed with some articles I've seen on biodiesel.
Most of what I had read was of conversions for automobiles.
But now I'm seeing articles where there are ways a home could be heated by all the above....heating oil, biodiesel or vegetable oils.
So now I'm weaving thru the web searches to find out more. This technology seems to be progressing nicely.
Does anyone know more about this stuff from experience or research?
I mean, I just topped off my oil tank 2 weeks ago...147 gallons at $3.16 a gallon. Ouch! Learning there's some very inexpensive fuel alternatives has me interested!
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http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218868
Originally posted by rpm
How does biodiesel look now? .75 a gallon to make your own.
Originally posted by LePaul
As for bio-diesel, again....new technology with not a lot of track record for home heating purposes. I'm not much for "home brewing" my heating needs. I know, call me kooky :)
Welcome to the darkside.:aok
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Seriously tho, if you are mechanicly inclined and like to tinker you can build your own processor. They are not that complicated. You can buy a kit for between $800 and $1200. The only problem after that is getting the oil and that should not be that hard. Just make a deal with a Mom and Pop restaraunt. They should be happy to give it away for free instead of paying to have it hauled away. You also need to find a way of getting rid of the glycerin.
If I still had a diesel pickup, I'd definitely be homebrewing fuel.
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Well let me tell you how I am when it comes to the home. Maybe I'm too much like my Dad...but as I am not a plumber, burner tech or electrician, I prefer to leave those tasks to those who are insured, licensed and will show up at 1 in the morning when the furnace goes "clunk" in the night.
I know that sounds sqeamish but I just think things like that, especially in a house, are best handled by the pros. I've seen people who want to save a few bucks here and there watch their homes burn down.
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You're de-gelling cooking oil, not making nitroglycerin. The kits are manufactured by pros, not some tree huggin' hippie.
Maybe kit is a bad description. Check out http://www.b100supply.com/ .
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Coal.
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Originally posted by rpm
If I still had a diesel pickup, I'd definitely be homebrewing fuel.
Is there any way thye can nail you on not paying taxes on regular diesel and using the highway system? IE. Remember the singer that was charged for using his own vegetable oil in his vehicle, under the auspices of not paying fuel tax.
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How does natural gas compare in costs per BTU in your area? We had a furnace installed a couple of years ago that is rated at over 90% efficiency; I think it only cost about $1400.00.
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Bodhi, shhhhh, don't tell anyone. Don't put "homemade biodiesel" signs on your truck.
:)
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Is there any way thye can nail you on not paying taxes on regular diesel and using the highway system? IE. Remember the singer that was charged for using his own vegetable oil in his vehicle, under the auspices of not paying fuel tax.
Actually I have not heard of anything like that at all Bodhi. There simply is no way to track it. If you want to be a "greaser" (use recycled vegie / cooking oil) your only limitation will be the source of oil to use and like already has been mentioned, the disposal of the waste products. There is a very finite amount of cooking oil to be had and as soon as demand gets to a certain point folks will be charging you to collect it, it's basic economics.
You will need a filtering and blending plant to "refine" and blend the oil to use it. It also has a higher gel point than does commercial diesel so cold weather usage will require fuel heating before heading out. Depending on how much you use, the cost to buy the materials and additives, the equipment and so on it may or may not be economically feasible to use the stuff. Keep in mind that if you are a "greaser" your vehicle will be limited to your home area.
Commercial grade biodiesel (B100) from the pump can be rather pricey. I priced it in Wichita last October. Regular diesel was going for $2.95 to $3.10 or so and the B100 was going for over $4.00 a gallon at that time.
One real advantage of biodiesel is that it puts back the lubricity that taking the sulphur out of diesel removes. A blend or diesel and biodiesel that equates to B2 (2% biodiesel to 98% ultra low sulphur diesel) is the same in lubricity as old straight (high sulphur) diesel. That's a big help to folks as wear of the fuel system components is a big deal particularly when the new (07) and later engines are running at 30,000+ psi at the injectors.
Biodiesel also tends to act like a fuel cleaner additive and can end up "scrubbing" gunk out of your system and plugging filters and injectors. Blending slowly helps keep things running better rather than dumping B100 into the tank on an older vehicle. Have extra filters on hand.
We had a fuel distributer rep that blends and sells B2 through B100 give us a talk at the Rally in Wichita last October. For the over the road truckers tere are few places to get biodiesel at a truck stop. There are only 2 flying J's in the country that sell it and both are in Indiana or Illinois. There are only 2 places at all in Tucson that sell biodiesel and neither are regular truck fuel places.
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Originally posted by john9001
Bodhi, shhhhh, don't tell anyone. Don't put "homemade biodiesel" signs on your truck.
:)
The smell McDonalds is enough. In my country the fine is from $5500 to $11000.
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Just Southeast of here, Stuttgart, AR is rice country. If you have eaten Riceland Rice, it came from there.
They also grow a lot of soybeans. In years past, those soybeans went for foods like Bacos Imitation Bacon Bits, tofu, and other food products. Some food products were exported to Asia & the Pacific Rim Nations....
Not as much as it used to.
Bio-Fuels companies are poppin up all over around here, and farmers who used to farm rice & crawfish, wheat, or tomatoes, are now switching to soybeans & corn...and selling it to the bio-fuels companies.
Personally, I'd LOVE to see every tillable square inch of America that is normally fallow planted with corn & soybeans and turned into bio-fuels, that are clean, renewable, and low maintainence to grow.
The OPEC nations would be a non-entity in less than 10 years, and our dependance on foreign oil----over. Many OPEC nations (who tend to use their perto-wealth to finance terrorism and cause other troubles) could find themselves having to actually work for a living.
America, Russia, Canada, (in that order) could be the next world leaders in creating & exporting bio-fuels.
I'd LOVE to drive by a bio-fuel "gas" station and see BIO- $77.9 a gallon...the more that's made, the far cheaper it will get.
68ROX
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Almost $80/gallon???
Surely you mean 77.9 cents/gallon
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Is there any way thye can nail you on not paying taxes on regular diesel and using the highway system? IE. Remember the singer that was charged for using his own vegetable oil in his vehicle, under the auspices of not paying fuel tax.
In many states road taxes still must be collected from biodiesel users...
http://biofuels.coop/general-information/taxes/
http://www.biodieselnow.com/blogs/business/archive/2007/06/18/biodiesel-taxes.aspx
http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub96.pdf
I'm sure this will apply to other alternative fuels, gotta keep those roads maintained.
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Originally posted by Meatwad
Almost $80/gallon???
Surely you mean 77.9 cents/gallon
In America, fuel prices are quoted to the .9 of of a cent (because of all the taxes, some of which are down the tenth of a cent.
Look at a gas station the next time you drive by.
Yes....77.9 cents.
If the resources are there, and the ability to mass produce are there, we should get it back down to that....without all the price hikes and getting jerked around by OPEC, oil speculators, refining companies.....et al.
68ROX
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Originally posted by Blooz
Coal.
Thank god we have enough in the USA to last 200 years. And I'll be dead by then!
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Is there any way thye can nail you on not paying taxes on regular diesel and using the highway system? IE. Remember the singer that was charged for using his own vegetable oil in his vehicle, under the auspices of not paying fuel tax.
In Michigan, offroad desiel (for tractors and dozers and such) has a red dye in it. If the DOT pulls you over in your rig and takes a fuel sample and your fuel is red, you are in a world of hurt. Biofuels opens up a can of worms I'm sure the feds hadn't thought of years ago when the onroad/offroad fuel system was put together. Give them a few years to think of a way to tax biofuel into not being worth the effort...
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If you are buying commercial grade biofuel, you are already paying taxes on it just like standard fuel.
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Originally posted by sluggish
In Michigan, offroad desiel (for tractors and dozers and such) has a red dye in it. If the DOT pulls you over in your rig and takes a fuel sample and your fuel is red, you are in a world of hurt. Biofuels opens up a can of worms I'm sure the feds hadn't thought of years ago when the onroad/offroad fuel system was put together. Give them a few years to think of a way to tax biofuel into not being worth the effort...
That's why I add a gallon of bleach at 89 cents a gallon to every full tank! No more red dye!
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The biodiesel, ethanol rage is like trying to fight a wild fire with wash cloth.
All that is going to be accomplished is making things worse....for the consumer in this case.
The bait is out, the hook is sharpened and waiting to be set.
As soon as enough are onboard , commericaly made prices for these fules will skyrocket to the same level, if not more, than is on fuel now.
The collecting of used cooking oil for free is on it`s last leg now. When there is a demand for something it stops being free shortly. It`s all about the money.
In the mean time we are already seeing the effect on prices of meat of any kind.
It will get worse. A lot worse.
The fire is spreading and it`s going to get hot as long as people are gullible enough to bite.
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It's all academic anyway as soon as this technology matures:
Hydrogen car (http://world.honda.com/news/2007/4071114All-New-FCX/)
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Originally posted by cpxxx
It's all academic anyway as soon as this technology matures:
Hydrogen car (http://world.honda.com/news/2007/4071114All-New-FCX/)
That's impressive...but only for southern climates. So far, anyways.
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Honda's American R&D center is in California.
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here you go,
here is a site I found a year or so ago, has a lot of info and a lot of the kits
starting from 20 Gal and up
http://www.ezbiodiesel.com/index.html
Cheers
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Water is the most abundant resource on the planet besides air. Some day I believe you will just fill the car with water.
steve myers
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=IhSP8b1OBAg&eurl=http%3A//www.water4gas.com/2books.htm%3Fhop%3Dsfnet11%26gclid%3Dci6btstsjjacfsabyqodslm7rw&iurl=http%3A//img.youtube.com/vi/IhSP8b1OBAg/default.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskKLVI2oSFOO2zbHcO1xZ9E3&rel=1&border=0
http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=sfnet11&gclid=ci6btstsjjacfsabyqodslm7rw
Has anyone tried this?
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Water is the most abundant resource on the planet. That does not mean it is distributed in a manner that makes it a viable source of energy. The use of fresh water to create hydrogen will simply exacerbate the water shortage already in place in many parts of the country. Taking the equivalent amount of fresh water out of the ground / rivers that we use in petro fuel will be a singular disaster ecologically. How much hydrogen will it take to replace a barrel of oil then multiply that by the number of barrels of oil being used for transportation alone, much less the other uses for it. Take the amount of water you'd have to break down for that and what will you drink?
There also would be a significant problem in transporting sufficient hydrogen from the coastal areas to the interior to take the place of the equivalent amount of petro fuel energy.
Hydrogen also will not provide enough energy to provide the electricity to produce it and fuel vehicular traffic at the same time to eliminate the use of fossil fuels in production of electricity.
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While I was looking around for water fuel's I found this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk
Water is the most abundant source.
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Originally posted by Bingolong
While I was looking around for water fuel's I found this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk
Water is the most abundant source.
The problem is efficiency. Sure, hydrogen and salt water seem like cool sources. But then you realize that you need to SPEND more energy to get the energy, then what they give off.
I don't think there will be any replacement for gasoline and oil until we find some sort of super Star Trek like energy.
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i refer you back to this. If you read far enough, you will see Honda is not only working on improved fuel cells they are also working on improved photovoltaic cells to produce hydrogen from water.. Never underestimate technology.
Originally posted by cpxxx
It's all academic anyway as soon as this technology matures:
Hydrogen car (http://world.honda.com/news/2007/4071114All-New-FCX/)
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Honda better come up with something more revolutionary than VTEC:aok
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The problem is efficiency. Sure, hydrogen and salt water seem like cool sources. But then you realize that you need to SPEND more energy to get the energy, then what they give off.
I don't think there will be any replacement for gasoline and oil until we find some sort of super Star Trek like energy.
I dont know or see any reason we couldnt use a facility like the hoover dam to produce hydrogen by electrolysis, the electric is allrdy there and so is the water. Electricity could just be passed through water bye copper rods to produce and capture hydrogen? The gravity is used to produce the electricity.
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Originally posted by Bingolong
I dont know or see any reason we couldnt use a facility like the hoover dam to produce hydrogen by electrolysis, the electric is allrdy there and so is the water. Electricity could just be passed through water bye copper rods to produce and capture hydrogen? The gravity is used to produce the electricity.
Ok, sounds like a good idea.
What are we now going to use to power all the homes you cut off by using the dam for conversion of Hydrogen?
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Lets see, taking power from the area Hoover dam supplies. That leaves most of AZ, Nevada including Vegas and a large chunk of Southern California in the dark. Yeah that's realistic. :rolleyes:
Did you think the dam is just sitting there and the electricity was not already allocated?!?!?!:huh Why do you think they put up a nuke power plant (Palo Verde reactor) if Hoover dam's power wasn't already tapped out?
Resources in the economy are not being left unallocated. You can't just say we'll use this or that and figure it won't impact the rest of the economy in a negative manner. It's already been born out with the corn / ethanol situation.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Lets see, taking power from the area Hoover dam supplies. That leaves most of AZ, Nevada including Vegas and a large chunk of Southern California in the dark. Yeah that's realistic. :rolleyes:
Did you think the dam is just sitting there and the electricity was not already allocated?!?!?!:huh Why do you think they put up a nuke power plant (Palo Verde reactor) if Hoover dam's power wasn't already tapped out?
Resources in the economy are not being left unallocated. You can't just say we'll use this or that and figure it won't impact the rest of the economy in a negative manner. It's already been born out with the corn / ethanol situation.
I did not say take anything. I said pass through, read carefully now.:rolleyes:
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Uh bingalong, don't you understand that electricity passes through a circuit in everything you run? It doesn't mean that it all passes through at the same strength. Once "work" is done by the power it is diminished.
TANSTAAFL
Oh and BTW there is no perpetual motion machine either.
As far as reading carefully goes, you might want to read my post at the beginning of this page.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Oh and BTW there is no perpetual motion machine either.
Okay how bout this?
Plasma Gasification
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/873aae7bf86c0110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
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LePaul, did you look at the info on processors? What did you think of the designs?
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Originally posted by Bingolong
Okay how bout this?
Plasma Gasification
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/873aae7bf86c0110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
What about it? It makes electricity from waste. Waste Management has 16 plants in WA, CA, FL, and the northeast that convert waste into 227 MW of electricity, and that is just one company.
Sorry about hydrogen, but it is just one spoke in the wheel, not a panacea that will solve all our problems.
Hydrogen is just a way to store energy we must find in other forms.
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I haven't researched this process, but if you could capture it in addition to what is already generated, i.e. place it inline, it may not be a bad idea. You could retrofit all existing hydroelectric plants with afterburners.
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http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=50088
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Originally posted by Bingolong
Okay how bout this?
Plasma Gasification
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/science/873aae7bf86c0110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
It's interesting but still not perpetual motion. The costs involved will include the sorting and transportation of the raw "fuel" as well as the removal of the "waste" for even further processing to make it usable for something. Coupled with a number of other technologies it might make a dent in fuel usage but most power generation here is from coal, not petroleum.
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Originally posted by Maverick
It's interesting but still not perpetual motion. The costs involved will include the sorting and transportation of the raw "fuel" as well as the removal of the "waste" for even further processing to make it usable for something. Coupled with a number of other technologies it might make a dent in fuel usage but most power generation here is from coal, not petroleum.
well from what I understand It does take an intial boost of power to get the plasma fired off, but after that it runs its self as long as you keep dumping trash "Raw fuel", these transportation costs are already there, in it, even toxics. The by product < waste> is material that could be used to maintain the roads, which we pay taxes for, and of course hydrogen.
here is another company larger scale.
http://www.plascoenergygroup.com/