Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: yankedudel on December 07, 2007, 02:21:30 PM
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Any opinions? My father and I are going to start fighting in the DA at an agreed upon altitude head on and I was wondering which aircraft would give me the biggest advantage climbing to altitude to try and reverse on him.
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You will want to climb first, level to build speed, then go head-to-head, so the climb speed doesn't really matter too much in this case.
However, just to name a few of the best climbers in the game, there's the spit8/16/14, the 109 g2/k4, the c205 matches the 109g2 for climb, the ki84 isn't bad, the f4u4, and if you want to try something wacky, let's not forget the Me163.
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yanke,
If you're meeting head to head at an agreed upon altitude for a co-alt merge, standard climb isn't what you're looking for. If you want good climbing performance in combat the zoom is much more important.
Case in point: In a straight climb the Spitfire Mk. XVI will out-climb all marks of the F4U. However because of their greater mass and, as a result, E-retention, the Hogs can, will and DO lose the Spixteen in the zoom assuming equivilant starting E-states. The Spit will catch up in an extended climb, but by then the F4U would have sufficient seperation to begin its next move.
Heavier fighters like the Corsairs, P-38s, F6F, and P-47s are all exceptional in the zoom, and can lose even superior straight climbers in the vertical if they have enough starting energy.
Where straight climb is most important is if your goal is to gain a STARTING altitude advantage before the initial merge.
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I guess I needed to clarify that. We are going to climb to a predetermined alt. then when we are both their merge head to head so no one starts with the advantage. What I am trying to do is go vertical after we pass, hope he doesnt see me and have the advantage when I am above him and he is looking for me so I can get a shot at him. I am a "NOOB" so I dont have all of the terminology down. I guess the best example would be an F4 phantom vs. Mig 17/19. No way the F4 could outturn the MIG so it would use its superior power to get into the vertical..............
I think I just answered my own question...I just need to use my E to my advantage....just thinking out loud.
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Most DA's are done using the same plane as well as the same alt. No always, but normally.
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Yank,
Hook up with some of the trainers in the training arena. They'll show you more than just how to get above your opponent. With their help you'll be beating your dads butt in no time.
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I will definetly get over there as soon as the stick and throttle show up. Right now I am a mouse and keyboard guy and stick with the offline practice to stay out of everyone's way, try to learn the keyboard commands and learn the charachteristics of the aircraft. Cant wait to get started though.
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if u wanna fly more maneuverable planes, u can always use planes like the La-7 (personal fav) but remember to cut your throttle when you are turning
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Originally posted by angelsandair
but remember to cut your throttle when you are turning
Now, why would you do that?
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by yankedudel
Any opinions? My father and I are going to start fighting in the DA at an agreed upon altitude head on and I was wondering which aircraft would give me the biggest advantage climbing to altitude to try and reverse on him.
best climber I do believe to be the p-38, although if your looking for a co-alt fight, only thing it's gonna be good for in climbing is if you want to rope 'em (Not saying p38 isn't good, i love the plane) but if you want to BnZ in the DA, don't even go there mate...
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Originally posted by Widewing
Now, why would you do that?
My regards,
Widewing
Cutting airspeed to increase your turn rate perchance?
Idea is the slower you go, the less forward momentum you'll have meaning you'll be able to break to either X axis faster and get a better turn rate.
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Then the other guy maintains his throttle loops over your head. The guy who chopped his throttle is in slow motion begging for forgiveness underneath.
Rudder turn at the right moment. His nose drops just as you reach 400 down. Good night comrade!
Theres throttle work and then there are throttle choppers. Choppers = bad.
the angel guy was talking LA7's also.
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Basically what sax said, zoom after the initial merge is more important than climb rate. Climb rate will give you a continual vertical advantage, but if you win the vert off the merge, that doesn't mean much anyway.
Your F4 and MiG comparison is right, however you're missing the fact that the F4 both zoomed and climbed better than the MiGs it went up against. In this game, you'll get a lot of matchups where zoom does not necessarily equate to better climb, and vice versa. It really depends on your fighting style, but for the purposes of what you are looking for I would recommend a 38. Good zoom potential, good climb, and great ability to hang in the vert at low IAS. Good luck.
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Try a 109G-2
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Originally posted by Widewing
Now, why would you do that?
My regards,
Widewing
Thats what i'm saying Widewing. People and they're myths.
Generally maintain airspeed at all times.
Ever seen jets doing hard turns at an airshow? Ever seen them not with the afterburner on when doing that? They'd fall out the air due to E loss.
For God's sake listen to Bruv.
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Originally posted by angelsandair
but remember to cut your throttle when you are turning
Not if you want to "use" your E!:aok
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Is your dad a noob as well?
What altitude are you two planning to be fighting at?
Originally posted by yankedudel
I guess I needed to clarify that. We are going to climb to a predetermined alt. then when we are both their merge head to head so no one starts with the advantage. What I am trying to do is go vertical after we pass, hope he doesnt see me and have the advantage when I am above him and he is looking for me so I can get a shot at him. I am a "NOOB" so I dont have all of the terminology down. I guess the best example would be an F4 phantom vs. Mig 17/19. No way the F4 could outturn the MIG so it would use its superior power to get into the vertical..............
I think I just answered my own question...I just need to use my E to my advantage....just thinking out loud.
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Originally posted by yankedudel
I guess I needed to clarify that. We are going to climb to a predetermined alt. then when we are both their merge head to head so no one starts with the advantage. What I am trying to do is go vertical after we pass, hope he doesnt see me and have the advantage when I am above him and he is looking for me so I can get a shot at him. I am a "NOOB" so I dont have all of the terminology down. I guess the best example would be an F4 phantom vs. Mig 17/19. No way the F4 could outturn the MIG so it would use its superior power to get into the vertical..............
I think I just answered my own question...I just need to use my E to my advantage....just thinking out loud.
After many MA engagements there is only one thing i can really tell you. Aircombat is like life, what you plan and what actually happens are two different things. Now it's good to have a plan, but have a backup if it doesn't go well. Because fighting against actual is very different than fighting the AI in Il-2. You can never count real people out.
One of the real nice fun challenges about this game.
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Originally posted by StuB
Is your dad a noob as well?
Yeah, my old man is retired/moved away. He hasnt joined up yet but I figure when I show it to him over the Holidays he will join up. Something he and I can do even though he is 1000 miles away.
What altitude are you two planning to be fighting at?
I was thinking neutral head on merge at 10k.
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Originally posted by LEADPIG
After many MA engagements there is only one thing i can really tell you. Aircombat is like life, what you plan and what actually happens are two different things.
Yeah, I know but it is like visions of sugar plums dancing in my head.....we merge.....he turns hard to come around on me but I zoomed vertical...where am I???? On his six blasting away!!!!!! MUAHAHAHA...MUAHAHAHA!!!!:t :t :t
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That would depend his his level of situational awareness. Going vertical is my favored first move after a merge as well, as it's more efficient than a break turn to reverse and it CAN work, especially against an inexperienced opponent who has difficulty keeping track of your position. However if he knows to pick up your position immediately on merge he'll spot your vertical maneuver and will respond accordingly.
He may immelmann on you to force a second merge while you're coming over the top, enter a climbing spiral to deny you position on his 6, split-S under you to extend out to where you can't drop into an immediate guns solution, etc, etc.
A dogfight is one long series of Move/Counter-move. NEVER count on your first maneuver being the only one you need because if you don't have a second, third, or fourth planned out you lose the initiative the moment your opponent defeats the first.
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Can you actually plan a dogfight or is it just a product of experience reacting to what the other guy is doing? Knowing if he does 'x' I will do 'y'?
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That depends on you, and who you're flying against.
Generally it's not so much a matter of having the entire fight choreographed but knowing how to respond to the opponent's maneuver.
Example:
I'm in pursuit of an opponent, and he decides to try drawing me into a rolling scissors. If you spot it in time, you can either commit to it, or disengage. Once committed there's no breaking contact, which forces me to remain in the maneuver until one of us is dead. Alternately, and IMO the better option, is not to get suckered in. I may immelmann out, I'll lag pursuit and pull higher into the vertical before rolling. This gives me more separation to work with.
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Originally posted by yankedudel
I was thinking neutral head on merge at 10k.
Ok, then you want to go and do some aircraft performance comparisons at:
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php (http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php)
and do forum searches to get more detailed info, such as tips, tricks, things to look out for, etc...
If you are looking for great a plane to fight "upwards" in that also had good speed and acceleration, you might want to check out the Bf 109K4.
You can use it's sustained climbing ability to do a rope a dope manouver.
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How do you intend to merge?
Are you climbing like side-to-side and the first to hit 10K is free to engage?
BTW, try the 109G-2 or perhaps the G-14 as well as the K-4.
AFAIK the 109G-2 in AHII climbs on pair or better than a Spitfire XIV. 5 mins to 20K.
Not so sure about 10K though.....maybe Spit 16? It is fast enough, and deadly nimble...
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Originally posted by yankedudel
Can you actually plan a dogfight or is it just a product of experience reacting to what the other guy is doing? Knowing if he does 'x' I will do 'y'?
There's an old military adage that says; "the first casualty of battle is the battle plan."
You can have a basic concept of how you would prefer to handle an engagement. However, you will invariably have to adapt to the situation that actually develops. The ability to adapt and improvise is essential to repeated success.
Never enter a fight with too much expectation as you'll be less able to adjust when circumstances change, and they WILL change.
My regards,
Widewing