Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Odysseus on December 08, 2007, 04:57:49 PM
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Need tips on flying a P51, I hear they have good guns and speed. I want to know if turning is a big problem with them. I'm sure I can cope, I just need to know what to expect. (Joining Aces High later under this name possibly)
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The biggest disadvantage you'll find to turning in P51s is their somewhat deflated engine. It can't hover like most of the good turners in the game. You can't make much more than small corrections to your maneuvers when you're deep into stalls.
It competes in turns just fine anywhere above low speed.
The guns are standard 6 x 50cal MGs. The 51 is a pretty stable gun platform, nothing that should give you any trouble.
The speed is one of the best in the game. The engine is nothing extraordinary, but the aerodynamics are very slick, so it retains speed very well.
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Thanks. I think i'll try to Mustang. Me and my friend are going to fly wingman for each other, so I think that with work, we'll be successful.
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There's a wingman training session organised by the AH trainers this wednesday. You should definitely give it a try if you've joined the game by then.
There's a free two-week trial that'd give you and your wingman a good idea of what the game is like.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221307
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Originally posted by Odysseus
Thanks. I think i'll try to Mustang.
Get ready to have your heart broken. She's beautiful, but she'll leave you unsatisfied.
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if you have to turn do it in a down ward spiral you should be able to out turn everything
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Originally posted by splitatom
if you have to turn do it in a down ward spiral you should be able to out turn everything
:lol
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Originally posted by splitatom
if you have to turn do it in a down ward spiral you should be able to out turn everything
I agree with Steve on this one. The pony should be a great fighter in AH but it is merely pretty good. You can out fight most players if you play your cards right but in a turning match between good sticks with one in a pony and the other in something that can turn and the pony is on a quick trip to the glue factory.
To succeed with the pony in AH you need to keep it relatively fast, manage your E well and play it smart. It will furball decently but you need to recognize when it's time to get out of dodge or reset your E.
Cheers,
asw
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Get ready to have your heart broken. She's beautiful, but she'll leave you unsatisfied.
I gotta tell you that P-51 will keep honest and alive.It will not let you do anything that you should not do.
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Originally posted by KgB
I gotta tell you that P-51 will keep honest and alive.It will not let you do anything that you should not do.
Huh? I've flown the 51 a bit. Other than good high speed and high speed handling, the only other significant + it has is it's excellent views. Compared to other late war rides, it is decidedly outclassed.
As covered in other threads: It accelerates quite poorly, turns poorly(towards the worst), climbs poorly, has average lethality, ammo load, and average sturdiness.
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The pony should be a great fighter in AH but it is merely pretty good.
I agree Paul.* Thus the heartbreak I mentioned.
* although I'd rate it somewhere between sucks and fair. :D
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Huh? I've flown the 51 a bit. Other than good high speed and high speed handling, the only other significant + it has is it's excellent views. Compared to other late war rides, it is decidedly outclassed.
As covered in other threads: It accelerates quite poorly, turns poorly(towards the worst), climbs poorly, has average lethality, ammo load, and average sturdiness.
Oh my friend many people will disagree with you:)If you see p-51 trying to dog fight with lala at 3k,obviosly p51 deserves to die.
Again,im terible stick,but with Pony i usualy make it home with couple kills:)
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Originally posted by Odysseus
Need tips on flying a P51, I hear they have good guns and speed. I want to know if turning is a big problem with them. I'm sure I can cope, I just need to know what to expect. (Joining Aces High later under this name possibly)
Odysseus, if you're just starting out with no experience in Aces High, I don't think the P51 would be your best plane to start with. Steve said it best. I'll leave you frustrated, especially if this is your first time in the MA.
My suggestion is to start out with the Spitfire. Try the Spit 5, 9, and 8. These planes offer a little bit of everything. Good guns, fuel, speed, and turning. Remember, the Spitfire line isn't the best plane, but it'll keep you alive long enough to learn the basics.
The learning curve here is very steep. Plan on getting shot down a lot. And I mean A LOT! Just remember, don't quit, do your homework (read the help files), and practice with others in the TA.
Welcome to AH.
Obie:aok
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when ever i fly the p51's i allways loose speed when i dogfight and versing a 109 to get back in the fight hit the deck go faster than 475 mph then pull up roll right and the 109 will go crazy.
:aok :eek: :aok
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Originally posted by Obie303
Steve said it best. I'll leave you frustrated...
Oh dear God...
As for the Mustang, see sig.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Get ready to have your heart broken. She's beautiful, but she'll leave you unsatisfied.
I'd love to have some of what your smoking :]
Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.
The P-51 is a brilliant plane for more experianced pilots who know how to use flaps and throttle control properly.
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You won't out turn a spit16 in a knife fight with a P51 unless the spit16 pilot is sedated.
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Originally posted by Obie303
Odysseus, if you're just starting out with no experience in Aces High, I don't think the P51 would be your best plane to start with. Steve said it best. I'll leave you frustrated, especially if this is your first time in the MA.
My suggestion is to start out with the Spitfire. Try the Spit 5, 9, and 8. These planes offer a little bit of everything. Good guns, fuel, speed, and turning. Remember, the Spitfire line isn't the best plane, but it'll keep you alive long enough to learn the basics.
The learning curve here is very steep. Plan on getting shot down a lot. And I mean A LOT! Just remember, don't quit, do your homework (read the help files), and practice with others in the TA.
Welcome to AH.
Obie:aok
Oh, i'm not starting out. I've been playing for a while, but mostly in Spits and Hellcats. I flew a Hellcat when I first started, then moved on to the Spits. Went from Spit 16, to Spit 8, which I currently fly. I think Spit8 has the perfect mix of muscle and agility. My friend says he will fly the pony though. He liked it when I let him fly it, and he says he's still trying to get AH. I still think the pony's good for high alt flying and fighting, thanks for the tips.
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Originally posted by trigger2
The P-51 is a brilliant plane for more experianced pilots who know how to use flaps and throttle control properly. [/B]
If you need to use flaps and throttle control, you're just a target... :)
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Originally posted by Grendel
If you need to use flaps and throttle control, you're just a target... :)
in the pony, you don't need it, but it's deffinitly brilliant knowledge to have when you get jumped by 4 or 5 spitty's :]
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Originally posted by trigger2
I'd love to have some of what your smoking :]
Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.
The P-51 is a brilliant plane for more experianced pilots who know how to use flaps and throttle control properly.
:rofl
Id like what ever youve been smoking. A pony will NEVER out turn a spit16.
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Originally posted by Larry
:rofl
Id like what ever youve been smoking. A pony will NEVER out turn a spit16.
Happens all the time Larry, but you have to take into account that 75% people flying the spit in this game have no idea how to fly that plane and run it "balls to the walls", so ya a chop of the throttle, a bit of flaps, and your inside...... piece of cake :D
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Odysseus:
The P-51 is an unremarkable plane in Aces High when it comes to fundamental performance characteristics of aircraft. The only trait that it has some advantage in is in top level speed but there are more than a handful of planes that are faster than the Mustang as it is.
If you want some advice on the Mustang in AH, here was a thread posted not long ago on the topic:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=210845&referrerid=3699
On the issue of it's turning ability don't be fooled by folks talking about how you can out turn a Spit XVI etc. Equal pilot ability, Co-E, & same fuel weight %, the Spit XVI should easily out turn the P-51 no question especially in the vertical.
Here's the rub...
[list=1]- It's all relative[/b]
My 3 axioms of air combat (for what it's worth :p!):
(1) There are no absolutes in air combat; it's all relative
(2) You can't defy aerodynamics
(3) The way we fly reflects the way we think
Understanding and mastering #1 is key. There are times when you can actually out-turn a Spit XVI given the right relative conditions but they only apply when the right relative margins exist for different situations (e.g. Spit XVI is way above it's corner velocity and carrying 75% fuel, the Mustang is at it's corner velocity and carrying 25% fuel, etc.). These tend to be fleeting but at the right moments they can give you the necessary momentary advantage.
For success in maneuvering combat with the Mustang you can't rely solely on the basic performance of the P-51 because it has very few areas that it has any advantage in vs. other planes. For success in maneuvering combat in the P-51 you need to learn how to exploit the relativity in other areas to your advantage such as differences in airspeeds and geometry etc. You have to recognize when and where you have a relative margin difference and how you can exploit that to your advantage.
- A2A advantage isn't only decided by turn radius or turn rate[/b]
Don't be confused between turn-performance vs. forcing an overshoot. Creating an overshoot in a Mustang vs. Spit XVI doesn't necessarily mean you've out-turned the Spit to do so. Learn what dictates positional advantage for various situations. Turn radius and turn-rate aren't the only deciders of gaining an angles advantage.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I'm a jug driver mostly, but as with the Jug, I think the Mustang does not get to reach it's potential because most of the fights are at low altitude. Are my suspicions crrect or am I just crazy? I know that when you get my jug above 20k it's like going from a truck to a sports car. Just a thought.
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Originally posted by trigger2
I'd love to have some of what your smoking :]
Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.
The P-51 is a brilliant plane for more experianced pilots who know how to use flaps and throttle control properly.
If your T&Bing a pony your flying "stupid". The pony is a great E fighter and it will suprise a +E con rather nicely in good hands. However the pony isnt really a true flaps and throttle bird like the Hog, it simply doesnt handle as well. In fact a well flown D11 will hand the pony its arnold in a turn fight.
The pony is a predators plane, fly it fast, fly it in the verticals and use flaps and throttle just to saddle up but not to turn...easy plane to run a 10/1 K/D ratio in and an easy one to go 1/10 as well.
But show me a guy who flies it "like a spit" and I'll show you a guy who dies in it alot.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
Happens all the time Larry, but you have to take into account that 75% people flying the spit in this game have no idea how to fly that plane and run it "balls to the walls", so ya a chop of the throttle, a bit of flaps, and your inside...... piece of cake :D
I was really talking about two people who know what theyre doing. Hell Iv out turned a noob in a spitV with my B25H before.
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Originally posted by dtango
Odysseus:
The P-51 is an unremarkable plane in Aces High when it comes to fundamental performance characteristics of aircraft. The only trait that it has some advantage in is in top level speed but there are more than a handful of planes that are faster than the Mustang as it is...... [/B]
Tango--
Could you also say that the pony excells at energy retention?
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Simaril: That's a little bit more tricky of a question.
As a generalization I think it's about average (maybe even just a little above avg) in energy retention. The Mustang's mystical energy retention is mainly situational. Let me explain:
It retains energy well if you fly it using low-g or very short duration maneuvers. But any aircraft would retain energy flying in this manner. What helps the Mustang in these situations is that it has a lower parasite drag coefficient compared to other planes. That's part of the reason for it's higher top speed for a modest engine horsepower. The same factor of course contributes to retaining energy because it bleeds energy slower from parasite drag in low-g, high speed maneuvers. Enter a fight when you have energy in either altitude or speed, use maneuvers sparingly, be disciplined about trading that speed for alt. Combine that with a lower parasite drag and the Mustang hangs on to it's energy longer.
However yanking the stick back for max performance turns, it bleeds E in spades especially if you hold that high-g turn for more than a moment in the horizontal or the vertical. It has a high wing-loading contributing to induced drag in turns. To top it off, it has a very modest thrust-to-weight ratio so it's like waiting for paint to dry trying to gain that energy back through the powerplant so it really sucks in energy retention in sustained maneuvering :).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by humble
If your T&Bing a pony your flying "stupid". The pony is a great E fighter and it will suprise a +E con rather nicely in good hands. However the pony isnt really a true flaps and throttle bird like the Hog, it simply doesnt handle as well. In fact a well flown D11 will hand the pony its arnold in a turn fight.
The pony is a predators plane, fly it fast, fly it in the verticals and use flaps and throttle just to saddle up but not to turn...easy plane to run a 10/1 K/D ratio in and an easy one to go 1/10 as well.
But show me a guy who flies it "like a spit" and I'll show you a guy who dies in it alot.
Depends on where your flying at and where your flying at :]
The pony IS a remarkable E fighter and that's how I NORMALLY use it, I save T&B as my final resort but every now and again, I do have to use it. But even so, I can still rack up points. Altitude and who's in the other plane plays a very important role.
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i had a great fight in my SpitIX the other night 2 P51's cam at me with higher speed an dalt advantage. I took both out. 1 killed the other limped home with his tail between it's legs.
Yet i've had Alt and speed advantage over a P51 and lost . use it's advantages (high speed roll rate)
And don't auger as i saw two guys on the weekend do . they were flying wing and went vert on two of my side . we saw two big bangs in the floor
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Originally posted by 200rabit
when ever i fly the p51's i allways loose speed when i dogfight and versing a 109 to get back in the fight hit the deck go faster than 475 mph then pull up roll right and the 109 will go crazy.
:aok :eek: :aok
Any 109 pilot with a brain will know how to counter this and then simply eat you alive in that climb.
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Originally posted by trigger2
I'd love to have some of what your smoking :]
Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.
The P-51 is a brilliant plane for more experianced pilots who know how to use flaps and throttle control properly.
Psst, the only time you are going to outturn an equally skilled spit 16 pilot is when you have the 16 well over its cornering speed. And if you are turning, this advantage will be very short as the speeds will quickly drop.
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who doesn't fly the 51 much.
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Originally posted by 200rabit
when ever i fly the p51's i allways loose speed when i dogfight and versing a 109 to get back in the fight hit the deck go faster than 475 mph then pull up roll right and the 109 will go crazy.
:aok :eek: :aok
yikes, you're toast if you do that vs a guy who knows what he's doing. Here's a helpful hint though: The pony turns and rolls(a little) better to the left.
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Originally posted by dtango
Simaril: That's a little bit more tricky of a question.
As a generalization I think it's about average (maybe even just a little above avg) in energy retention. The Mustang's mystical energy retention is mainly situational. Let me explain:
It retains energy well if you fly it using low-g or very short duration maneuvers. But any aircraft would retain energy flying in this manner. What helps the Mustang in these situations is that it has a lower parasite drag coefficient compared to other planes. That's part of the reason for it's higher top speed for a modest engine horsepower. The same factor of course contributes to retaining energy because it bleeds energy slower from parasite drag in low-g, high speed maneuvers. Enter a fight when you have energy in either altitude or speed, use maneuvers sparingly, be disciplined about trading that speed for alt. Combine that with a lower parasite drag and the Mustang hangs on to it's energy longer.
.....snip...
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Excellent answer. Thanks.
And that low-G maneuvering is typically how I fly the pony successfully. I'm not nearly patient enough to be a true alt monkey picker (not that there's anything wrong with that) But, within those limits it's a really sweet ride. Limit turns to under 60 or so degrees; learn how to cut flight paths that let you use less G, but make enemies use higher G to pursue/break; use the vertical (with low G) to maintain energy...and many good things come, even to guys like me who cant shoot their way out of a paper bag with a sawed off shotgun!
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Psst, the only time you are going to outturn an equally skilled spit 16 pilot is when you have the 16 well over its cornering speed. And if you are turning, this advantage will be very short as the speeds will quickly drop.
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who doesn't fly the 51 much.
Never said an equally skilled spit stick.
As someone said previously, the majority of people in the spitfire are complete noobs who fly balls to the wall. The pony can turn if it has to.
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Originally posted by trigger2
Never said an equally skilled spit stick.
As someone said previously, the majority of people in the spitfire are complete noobs who fly balls to the wall. The pony can turn if it has to.
Fine and dandy :). It's just that it's terrible advice to be giving someone trying to learn the Pony because it gives the impression that any noob can turn fight in the Mustang. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you're going to turnfight in a P-51, you better darn well have a lot of other things figured out because you're going to have to employ alot of other tactics to win a maneuver fight against a better turning plane.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by trigger2
Never said an equally skilled spit stick.
As someone said previously, the majority of people in the spitfire are complete noobs who fly balls to the wall. The pony can turn if it has to.
Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.
you are implying here that one can outturn a 16... any 16. You are wrong... just plain wrong.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
you are implying here that one can outturn a 16... any 16. You are wrong... just plain wrong.
Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met. Speed, Flaps, Altitude and how good is the guy in the other plane? If theyre flyin balls to the wall at a high altitude and a complete noob (90% of spit sticks) then you got the upper hand and your on the inside easy if you know how to cut throttle to about 30% with full flaps. If you've got 2 of these 3 then you gotta work a little harder, and if you've only got 1, well, depends on which one it is. It's knowledge, pretty basic too it seems.:noid
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Originally posted by trigger2
Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met.
Trigger I can outturn a noob in a A6M2 with my lancaster IF the right critiria is met. A spit16 turn radius with flaps up is 20m tighter then the P51Ds with full flaps. I dont know what kind of people you have been flying agenst but anyone who has been flying before November of this year can out turn a pony in a spit16.
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Flaps and throttle control mate, that's all you need to outturn a spixteen.
Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met. Speed, Flaps, Altitude and how good is the guy in the other plane
So flaps and throttle control isn't all you need eh? :aok
inside easy if you know how to cut throttle to about 30% with full flaps. If you've got 2 of these 3 then you gotta work a little harder, and if you've only got 1, well, depends on which one it is. It's knowledge, pretty basic too it seems
Once again you are spreading incorrect information. If you are slow enough to deploy full flaps and actually do so in a turn, you are DECREASING a pony's turning ability. You are just plain wrong, again.
Trigger, I know I sound harsh but you are absolutely incorrect. What is your in game name? Have I ever run into you?
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
What is your in game name?
I would love to know the answer to this question.
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I have lots of success in the P-51 when I use vertical maneuvering as much as possible. Say for example, I meet a Spit 9 at co-alt at about 5000 feet. We pass each other then engage. Instead of doing an E-bleeding flat turn, I'll do an immelman, but adjust it so that my gunsight crosses his path when I roll level. Not only have I not lost any E during that maneuvering (simply traded kinetic energy for potential energy), but I'm now in a position where I can at least get a snapshot on the dude. Hes probably on the verge of a blackout too.
Heres a few other tips for flying the Mustang:
It turns best to the left
Retract your flaps as soon as your stop turning
If someone is definately going to get a shot at you, turn towards and below them. Say for example an N1K2 is 800 yards from you at your 10:00 position. You would make a diving left-hand turn.
10,000 feet is the optimal cruising altitude for the P-51. It'll do over 400mph in just military power. From about 11,000 up to 18,000 you can't get full engine power. Above that, 25,000 is the best cruising alt.
A zero-G dive is the best way to disengage from a rolling scissors maneuver where the enemy is getting behind you.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I have lots of success in the P-51 when I use vertical maneuvering as much as possible. Say for example, I meet a Spit 9 at co-alt at about 5000 feet. We pass each other then engage. Instead of doing an E-bleeding flat turn, I'll do an immelman, but adjust it so that my gunsight crosses his path when I roll level. Not only have I not lost any E during that maneuvering (simply traded kinetic energy for potential energy), but I'm now in a position where I can at least get a snapshot on the dude. Hes probably on the verge of a blackout too.
Here's the problem with the above: Should you run across someone with dueling experience flying a SpitIX under the circumstances you describe, you'll be dead before you reverse 180 degrees. It doesn't matter if you reverse into an immelmann as the Spit will execute a climbing turn, bleed E faster and be waiting for you. Ditto for the F4U, F6F, and quite a few others. The P-51's low drag/high E retention can be a liability under the circumstances you specify.
Against a half-way competent stick, your Mustang will be chewed to pieces right off the merge. What you described is not how I fight my P-51 against Spits. I always work to establish an E advantage, and maintain that advantage at all times. The P-51 has excellent high speed handling, but low speed maneuverability is "the suck". Minimize flap use, don't G-load the airframe without good cause. Be smooth on control inputs and never chop power in an attempt to gain an angle. Acceleration is only average at best, so burning E is a bad thing.
P-51s have four primary strengths:
1. Speed
2. High-speed handling
3. Superior E retention
4. Superior outward visibility
Should a P-51 pilot not fight to those advantages, he usually dies.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by trigger2
Yes, you CAN outturn a 16 IF the right critiria is met. Speed, Flaps, Altitude and how good is the guy in the other plane? If theyre flyin balls to the wall at a high altitude and a complete noob (90% of spit sticks) then you got the upper hand and your on the inside easy if you know how to cut throttle to about 30% with full flaps. If you've got 2 of these 3 then you gotta work a little harder, and if you've only got 1, well, depends on which one it is. It's knowledge, pretty basic too it seems.
What is the intention of your posts? If you're intending to brag about how smart or how good your are in the Mustang by minimizing the challenge of defeating a better turning plane then you've done your job.
If however you're intending to provide some good advice on Mustang tactics then you're posts are lacking. Air combat is relative. What you're stating are over-generalizations which makes your statements pretty much useless. If you want to be helpful then you need to provide more relative information to make use of what you're saying. It's completely misleading otherwise.
(1) For example chopping throttle degrades your instantaneous and sustained turn performance unless you happen to be above corner speed and you're trying to get your airspeed lower to get there. Being above corner only occurs when:
- you already accelerated there at level or
- when you happen to be accelerating in a some form of nose down attitude and building airspeed.
For this to be even useful the Spitfire has to be at a point in it's turn performance envelope worse than or not using it's turn advantage vs. the Mustang. It's completely misleading to say that you'll outturn a Spit XVI anytime by chopping throttle.
(2) Chopping throttle below corner velocity is useful in situations where reducing your relative forward velocity by reducing thrust gives you a positional advantage. Between a Mustang and Spit XVI this happens only cases when
- the Spit XVI is at the RIGHT separation distance like the below image (Spit would be Plane A):
(http://brauncomustangs.org/upload/n2n-speed-turns.jpg)
- or when the Spit has a huge margin of smash compared to the Mustang,
- or both.
If the separation distances are closer or if the Spit doesn't have a large airspeed margin above yours then chopping throttle is pretty useless. Also in the situation when the Mustang and Spit are below corner velocity, it's misleading to say you're out-turning the Spit in this case because you're not using better turn radius or turn rate to force an overshoot. You're using lower airspeed to force an overshoot, not outturning the Spit at all.
A quick word on flaps. Dumping flaps will decrease your corner speed, increase your instantaneous turn rate and reduce your turn radius in a Mustang. It also helps if you're in situation #2 above by increasing drag to reduce your velocity. But just like chopping throttle, there are parameters around each situation when dumping flaps makes or doesn't make sense.
It's misleading to say that all you need to do is chop throttle and use flaps to outturn a Spit. There are situations that this will help a Mustang in. However it's a disservice to call it basic that any new dweeb should know without some serious learning/training from experience or otherwise.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Widewing
Here's the problem with the above: Should you run across someone with dueling experience flying a SpitIX under the circumstances you describe, you'll be dead before you reverse 180 degrees. It doesn't matter if you reverse into an immelmann as the Spit will execute a climbing turn, bleed E faster and be waiting for you. Ditto for the F4U, F6F, and quite a few others. The P-51's low drag/high E retention can be a liability under the circumstances you specify.
Ok, well in that case I would keep going vertical. The P-51s low speed maneuverability is not as bad as you say.
But very rarely do I run across a spit pilot that does more than a flat turn. I have a positive kill-to-death ratio that can attest to that. My arena name is Shrimp07.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Ok, well in that case I would keep going vertical. The P-51s low speed maneuverability is not as bad as you say.
But very rarely do I run across a spit pilot that does more than a flat turn. I have a positive kill-to-death ratio that can attest to that. My arena name is Shrimp07.
If you literally go vertical or close to it, assuming you are co-E and not just co-alt, BOOM you are dead.
As your 51 loses speed and begins the stall, your spit opponent maintains his climb and easily gets a kill. You can do this to a spit1, and maybe a spit V if he pulls too hard to acquire your 6 in the vert. Do this to the later spits and you'll find yourself falling to the ground or in the tower. For this merge move you are gambling on your opponent's lack of skill. Any stick that's been in a spitty for 2 weeks or more will climb up your tailpipe and make quick work of you.
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Why would I be co-e? My whole strategy would be to get the spit to try to follow me, and him stall out first.
But I can't remember the last time I've had a spit do anything besides a flat turn in the MA.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Why would I be co-e?
Lol I figured. When one discusses merges, it is implied that there is some kind of E state equilibrium. You might as well have said that you came in 3000 feet higher and didn't merge at all. All you are saying is that you try to come in with more E and rope the guy.
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When you go vertical, your not only conserving (or even gaining) E, you're also doing an out-of-plane maneuver. This can disorient or cause the other pilot to lose sight of you. The flat-turning spit will still be hauling around in the turn while you are getting your nose on him.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
When you go vertical, your not only conserving (or even gaining) E, you're also doing an out-of-plane maneuver. This can disorient or cause the other pilot to lose sight of you. The flat-turning spit will still be hauling around in the turn while you are getting your nose on him.
Well, so far you have described how to fight a noob. That's fine, we have plenty of those. However, your solution works only if the enemy is inexperienced.
The question begs, what do you do when you run into someone like me or Dedalos, or Urchin or any number of our highly skilled pilots? Moreover, what happens when you meet a skilled P-51 stick? What happens when you run into a top P-38 or 109 stick?
As you advance in skills, you'll look back and realize that there was still much to learn.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
When you go vertical, your not only conserving (or even gaining) E, you're also doing an out-of-plane maneuver. This can disorient or cause the other pilot to lose sight of you. The flat-turning spit will still be hauling around in the turn while you are getting your nose on him.
Again, this basis your entire premise that the spit will flat turn. Like I said, and then WW as well, this is fine against a noob but anyone that's been in the game for a while is going to eat your lunch with that move if the planes are anywhere close to Co-E.
I'm pleased for you that you have some success in the 51 but I think you are inexperienced in it and will find even more success once you really learn how to fight in it.
I hope you don't take offense because I certainly don't mean to offend you. I actually enjoy the attitude of relative new guys who start to get a grasp of the game, garner some successes, then with the new confidence really go after the bad guys with enthusiasm. It's fun to watch.
I had a couple of relative new guys ride with me for several flights last tour at their request. I could tell by their comments that it was eye opening for them and they both told me that hadn't known that a pony could fly around near the deck and get a bag full of kills. They always assumed it was limited to a E superior BnZ role. You should find an accomplished pilot, the names WW listed and WW himself are excellent examples, and ride along. I suspect you'll learn quite a bit... maybe really become a killer then. :aok
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hmmmm....
What do you do if the spitty counters your vertical move with a low yoyo leading into a vertical two circle fight?
Certainly no question that going vertical when you know you have the edge is a good idea...however your setting up either a b&Z or E attack. If your intent is to create a downward angle for a shot your simply playing into any one of a hundred good spit drivers hands. Basically your setting up a "remerge" that works against you and plays to the spits strengths. A good spit sriver will eat your E up in a few passes...
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
You should find an accomplished pilot, the names WW listed and WW himself are excellent examples, and ride along. I suspect you'll learn quite a bit... maybe really become a killer then. :aok
I've done this a few times, and after I did do it, that's when I did start racking up kills.
Before I took a few sorties with TA57 I couldn't even vulch without hitting the runway, and apparently, your not supposed to hit it nose first at 300 mph [:
A spitfire can outturn a P-51 easy, yes, we all know this, but, the P-51 can sure put up a **** good fight, specially seeing as how, as I said, 90% of the people in spitfires don't know how to fly.
Now I pose a new question, best fight you've been in with a P-51?
I actually have 2,
1 being a rolling scissors with a Yak-9U and a La-7 at an altitude of your engines got grass stains on it, beat 'em both but the only name I can recall is that of the Yak, which was Fuzeman or something along those lines.
2 being a huge furball over an enemy base with all the hangers up (VH FH BH everything) While at an average altitude of about 200 feet (if that) we were outtnumbered about 3 to 1 mostly Persuit planes vs hurricanes and spitfires and the occasionaly b25, ended up racking up 4 kills and able to make it home (thanks to spacy clearing a temp off of me whilst I was out of ammo)
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well my great uncle flew a P-51 in WW2 and he said it was the best plane he ever flew. One of the reasons why was because he new its limitations and what it could and couldn't do, most of the time while he was escorting bombers the enemy would come and he would attack them using the enemy's planes weekness to his advantage because the germans tried not to let them use the advantage but most where shot down.That was mostly what my great uncle said to me before he pasted away but thats how he told me how he shot down most of his enimes
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Originally posted by trigger2
Now I pose a new question, best fight you've been in with a P-51?
I
I've had a few good fight against Rogent's P51D while I was in a Mossie.