Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bodhi on December 09, 2007, 03:02:28 PM
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Apparently some sweetheart bag is shooting at people at New Life Church today... CNN says four have been hit.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/09/church.shooting.ap/index.html
Wtf is wrong with people... :rolleyes:
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Yes. I "watch" the news.
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didn't see about that maybe just some kids that think they are Bad prettythang who knows but that is stupid.
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Unbelievable, my condolences to the families.
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nirvana,
you hear anything on the one in Arvada last night?
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Nope, don't get on the computer much during the weekend and I hardly watch TV. Don't touch the newspaper either, maybe I should...
We had 2 lockdowns in 2 weeks at school though due to home invasions.
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The Colorado shooter is now no longer a problem. An armed church guard killed him.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071210/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings&printer=1;_ylt=Ar77d7DXtb7sPLS_IacfckBH2ocA
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I've been to my share of different churches, what struck me as odd was the fact that there was an armed guard. Don't get me wrong, I believe the fact he was there saved lives, but it piques my curiousity to know why a church would feel it needs an armed security contingent.
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This is a really bad week...
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Because people aren't wrapped to tightly these days, Endofsilence. It's rare to see a church that keeps it doors open all night as well, at least in my experience.
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Originally posted by EndofSilence
I've been to my share of different churches, what struck me as odd was the fact that there was an armed guard. Don't get me wrong, I believe the fact he was there saved lives, but it piques my curiousity to know why a church would feel it needs an armed security contingent.
Apparently the church had a contingency alert in effect since the shooting last night in Arvada. Good thing there was an armed guard though.
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The Arvada shooting provides the most likely impetus for the guard, agreed. It will be interesting to see if they are connected in the coming days. Damn shame either way.
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That's the first time I've ever, ever heard of an armed guard at a church.
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I wonder if the Knights of Columbus are packin?
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Originally posted by texasmom
That's the first time I've ever, ever heard of an armed guard at a church.
A member of my church is a police officer of the town the church is located in. He is always near the entrance to the parking lot sitting in his car and in uniform. I believe he is armed all the time. I didn't find it strange myself, I found it comforting. Someone was watching while I was in the service. It makes sense to me especially after the shooting in a church in Fort Worth a few years ago.
Mark
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Many synagogues have had armed guards for a long time. The war against terrorism in whatever form started earlier for them.
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Isn't Jesus (or said equivalent) supposed to be watching?
Tronsky
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Condolences to the families.
:(
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The local McChurch has armed guards to escort them to the bank. It came to light when people learned they were on-duty city officers hiring out during shift to make the money run in city cars.
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But it's a CHURCH!:confused:
What has happened to the world?
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Originally posted by texasmom
That's the first time I've ever, ever heard of an armed guard at a church.
It now turns out that the guard is a woman. She very quickly attacked the gunman, who was armed with what has been described as an assault weapon. One can only wonder if the recent shootings in Omaha influenced her decision to go after the gunman as aggressively as she did.
Women are not supposed to be very good shots with handguns. And security guards are not known for being all that skilled and courageous. So I wonder if she could have been an off-duty police officer?? It is too bad that someone like her was not employed at the Nebraska shopping mall.
Perhaps she will be nominated for the Presidential Medal of Freedom?? I think that she may very well deserve to get it. Just think how many could have potentially died at the church, if not for her fast action.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by SD67
But it's a CHURCH!:confused:
What has happened to the world?
it is interesting to note that this church actively supports missionary work inside Islamic nations to convert Muslims to Christianity.
In many Islamic states, converting to Christianity is a crime punishable by death. The case of the man who had to flee Afghanistan last year for his life, comes to mind:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189440,00.html
An evangelical church in South Korea had to pull back on their missionary work in Afghanistan earlier this year, after two of their missionaries were executed, and another 21 kidnapped for many weeks, and also threatened with death. The same church had another missionary beheaded in Iraq, and another stabbed to death in Muslim Kenya
Many conservative Muslims in the world are against Christians having the right to preach to them. It is considered a most serious insult to Islam, to suggest that any other religion is also valid.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by SIG220
Women are not supposed to be very good shots with handguns. And security guards are not known for being all that skilled and courageous. So I wonder if she could have been an off-duty police officer?? It is too bad that someone like her was not employed at the Nebraska shopping mall.
SIG 220
You want a side of fries with all those generalizations? My wife's a great shot, and the 'cowardly security guard' thing, you got some evidence to back that up? Or are you still mad about the mallcop asking you and your skateboarding friends not to do board slides down the escalator?
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It is a good thing that someone besides the police was armed.. the cops can take the report.
We are a nation of 15 minutes of fame and fad followers. DB cooper made us all skyjackers.. the media made kids killers of sheep in schools.
It will end when more of the bad guys are shot by civilians like this guy was and the media starts reporting that or... when we have a police state where everywhere you go we have armed cops every hundred feet...
I like the former idea better than the latter.
lazs
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We the People on their own turf fighting back in kind when under deadly attack...
TIGERESS
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Originally posted by Halo
Many synagogues have had armed guards for a long time. The war against terrorism in whatever form started earlier for them.
yeah....like....2000 something years ago.
sad news, best wishes to those concerned.
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Originally posted by SD67
But it's a CHURCH!:confused:
What has happened to the world?
What part offends you, that a nut job would attack people in a church, or just that the church folks took steps to defend themselves??
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doesnt surprise me that the church gaurd was armed correctly.
God did things to his enemys that made hiroshima look like a tea party.
hasnt anyone read the bible? i'm not a devoted christian but man the bible is a fun read. God got so pissed off one time he flooded the earth, come on...he destroyed whole cities if they bad mouthed him.
the only thing that surprises me is that God didnt warn the gaurd in advance, so he could stop the killer before he shot anyone..
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In the absence of God, evil fills the vacuume.
You can look at it lots of other ways but I believe personaly that our cultural abandonment of life guided by the Doctrine of Christ has led us down this evil path. You can resent people of Christian values and you can deny God in your own life, most people do, but you cannot deny that our society is slowly and inexorably goin down the toilet.
Just my opinion.
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yeager i wasn't advocating a discussion on god's existance or not with my post. what i was hoping someone more christian than myself would pointout was this.
Maybe god did warn the gaurd in time.
Maybe the gaurd was not receptive to God's way of talking untill some damage had already been done in the physical existance.
i with you agree about society, though i dont blame a lack of religion or a loss of faith in a christian god for this.
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'Anonymous Friend' Gives $100 Million to Town
(AP)Mike Batchelor invited the heads of 46 charities into his downtown office for one-on-one meetings to personally deliver the news. Nearby, on a small table, sat a box of tissues.
Mike Batchelor accepted a $100 million donation from an "Anonymous Friend" to benefit Erie charities.
And then he proceeded: A donor had given a staggering $100 million to the Erie Community Foundation, and all of the charities would receive a share.
That was when the tears began to flow -- and the mystery began -- in this struggling old industrial city of 102,000 on Lake Erie, where the donor is known only as "Anonymous Friend."
Batchelor, president of the Erie Community Foundation, has been sworn to secrecy and will allow only that the donor worked with the organization for years to identify deserving recipients before the announcement over the summer.
Is the donor dead or alive? No comment, Batchelor says. What is the donor's connection to Erie? No comment.
The talk about the gift has taken an interesting turn in recent weeks. As much as everyone here would like to know their benefactor's identity, many are also reluctant to pry.
"My feeling is that we're not honoring the donor if we spend time speculating about it," says Rebecca Brumagin, executive director at the Achievement Center, which provides physical therapy and other services to children. The center, which serves 3,200 children a year, will get $2 million.
"The needs are really great. So we will be able to help more children because of this," Brumagin says.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
You want a side of fries with all those generalizations? My wife's a great shot, and the 'cowardly security guard' thing, you got some evidence to back that up? Or are you still mad about the mallcop asking you and your skateboarding friends not to do board slides down the escalator?
No kidding.. that little girl who took shots in the face for her mom was cowardly and selfish too.. same for that other sister (IIRC) who stepped up to hostage takers/kidnappers a while back.
yeager i wasn't advocating a discussion on god's existance or not with my post. what i was hoping someone more christian than myself would pointout was this.
Maybe god did warn the gaurd in time.
Maybe the gaurd was not receptive to God's way of talking untill some damage had already been done in the physical existance.
i with you agree about society, though i dont blame a lack of religion or a loss of faith in a christian god for this.
Maybe, maybe not, all conjecture.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
Isn't Jesus (or said equivalent) supposed to be watching?
Tronsky
Yeah but the bastard doesn't lift a finger, as usual. People have to do everything themeselves.
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Former Marine Tackles, Lectures Bank Robber
DECATUR, Ga. AP
A suspected bank robber was stopped when a former Marine knocked him down and held him until police arrived. Timothy Armstead was at a Washington Mutual Bank on Tuesday to find out how someone had stolen $100 from his account when a man wielding a fire extinguisher came in and demanded $2,000.
The man told bank employees the fire extinguisher was a bomb and they had five minutes to give him $2,000 in $50 bills, DeKalb County police said.
As employees went to the bank vault to comply, the unidentified man began loudly counting down the minutes, attracting the attention of Armstead, police spokesman Michael Payne said.
When the robber tried walking out with the money, Armstead — who was already irritated about the money missing from his account — put his daughter down and knocked the man to the ground.
The man yielded without a fight. And while they waited for police to arrive, Armstead said he lectured the man on his poor decision.
''I just told him it was a very stupid decision and now you get to spend 20 years of your life just for taking some money,'' Armstead told Atlanta station WSB-TV.
Just to point out there are good things that happen from time to time...
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Should have lectured him using the floor to head technique to emphasize some of the numerous critical points in his lecture to the bank robber.
to the Marine.
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Apparently, the term "security guard" is a bit over used in this case. The hero was a "security volunteer."
Boyd said the female security guard was a hero in preventing further bloodshed, rushing to confront the gunman just inside the church.
"She probably saved over a hundred lives," Boyd said of the guard, whom he said is not a law enforcement officer and used her personal weapon.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html
Of course, other details of her background are lacking right now. But, it will be interesting to see just how much coverage this brave lady gets by the media (usually on the hunt for human interest stories) if it turns out she was simply a lay person with a CCW who was asked to lend a hand "just in case."
Charon
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Women are not supposed to be very good shots with handguns.
Firearm instructors tend to say the opposite. Unlike their male students, females tend to pay attention and follow direction, while the male students feel they know it all already.
FWIW, I'm considering taking pistol instruction since I cant shoot a pistol worth a damn (compared to a rifle, at least). Good enough for basic self defense at common ranges but not consistent in shot placement or groupings. My goal would be to approach it like a woman since I'm sure I have fundamental errors in technique that need correction :)
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
just how much coverage this brave lady gets by the media (usually on the hunt for human interest stories) if it turns out she was simply a lay person with a CCW who was asked to lend a hand "just in case."
Charon
Come now. You know it's against Mass Media rules to say anything positive at all about private ownership/use of weapons. Especially if she was CCW; that has to be twisted into a bad connotation somehow.
Praise the personal use of a handgun by a CCW holder on the national news? Cod forbid!
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women I have seen tend to be better shots..
The fine dexterity of th efinger does help a trmedous amount when talking about trigger control...
Look at the handwritting of most males compared to females..ladies are better
And when you are shooting guns trigger pull has got to be the #1 factor of aim
And this lady who blasted thsi scum bag will get NO COVERAGE from the scum sucking linguinni spinned left wing socialist limpwristed demcrat liberals.....
We will see it in "Armed Citizen" and thats probbaly it..
Wonder what gun she used..how many shots?
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I won't get into the women with guns things except to say...in my life I have taught a lot of women to shoot guns and they all seemed easy to teach and were all very good with the firearms.
The point is that the way this guy was stopped was by a civilian with a concealed firearm.. she probly saved a whole lot of peoples lives. The saving of lives with her gun will not get the attention of the killing of people gets tho.
And... if it were a public school... this woman would have been unarmed.. she was brave enough tho that she would probly have attacked anyway and would simply be one more victim.
Armed against the bad guy or not armed.. that is the choice. We see how well the "gun free zones" do.
now you can see how it turns out when the citizens are armed.
lazs
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Originally posted by Charon
Apparently, the term "security guard" is a bit over used in this case. The hero was a "security volunteer."
Of course, other details of her background are lacking right now. But, it will be interesting to see just how much coverage this brave lady gets by the media (usually on the hunt for human interest stories) if it turns out she was simply a lay person with a CCW who was asked to lend a hand "just in case."
Charon
I think its becoming clearer that this was actually the case. Turns out she was the one who, after the shooting earlier in the day, approached the pastor suggesting more "security" and basically said "this need done, I'll do it".
Hero.
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Originally posted by moot
Maybe, maybe not, all conjecture.
sure what i think about doesnt matter in the material world, only the spiritual, i realise that. some of us may hold more stock in the spiritual world than the material tho.
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Stock?
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Bat, I believe that the guards which Halo referred to at synagogues were probably the Jewish Defense League. I'm not totally familiar with their operation, but I'm sure someone on the boards here can flesh out the topic.
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Originally posted by Charon
Apparently, the term "security guard" is a bit over used in this case. The hero was a "security volunteer."
Of course, other details of her background are lacking right now. But, it will be interesting to see just how much coverage this brave lady gets by the media (usually on the hunt for human interest stories) if it turns out she was simply a lay person with a CCW who was asked to lend a hand "just in case."
Charon
Reports now confirm that the bad guy was not only armed with an AK-47, but also had a semiautomatic shotgun and pistol too, as well as lots of ammunition for them. One can only wonder how many unarmed people he could have potentially killed.
It also appears that the heroic woman was only armed with a revolver. But it is also now being reported that she emptied her gun into the bad guy.
The killer must not have expected anyone inside the church to be armed. She must have caught him off-guard, as he clearly had the advantage weaponry-wise.
See this new report:
http://www.denverpost.com/crush/ci_7682958
SIG 220
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Female member who shot gunman credits God
Jeanne Assam, the female congregant who shot a gunman who entered New Life church Sunday, said she felt weak as she approached him because she had been fasting. "I prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me, for the Holy Spirit to be with me," she said. "My hands weren't even shaking. I knew what I had to do."
So God decided to let 4 people die and then used this woman to shoot the killer.
I thinks his timing is off.
Argh those comments make me cringe.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Female member who shot gunman credits God
Jeanne Assam, the female congregant who shot a gunman who entered New Life church Sunday, said she felt weak as she approached him because she had been fasting. "I prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide me, for the Holy Spirit to be with me," she said. "My hands weren't even shaking. I knew what I had to do."
So God decided to let 4 people die and then used this woman to shoot the killer.
I thinks his timing is off.
Argh those comments make me cringe.
People often call upon God to help them, in a time of absolute crisis. This often even happens to people that are not all that religious. They suddenly find religion when they find themselves in a really bad situation.
This also happens all the time in war too.
You should not be so critical of the religious beliefs of others. If anything, you should be very respectful of her faith.
SIG 220
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Here we go again, someone trying to argue religion.. Have fun down the rabbit hole Sig. There's nothing rational about faith.
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Originally posted by moot
Here we go again, someone trying to argue religion.. Have fun down the rabbit hole Sig. There's nothing rational about faith.
But that does not mean that you should not be respectful of the religious faith of others.
There is no religious argument of any kind here. It is only a matter of respect.
SIG 220
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So?... There's no such thing as respect. Only recognition of common interests. Religion and moreso faith blow whichever way someone would fancy it to. It aspires to some noble values but is unchecked by reason of any kind.. It pays no respect to reason.
And nothing ranks above reason.
If there's anything that I see in people who will put themselves in harm's way to save others, it's duty.
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Did they check to see if the gunman had a mental problem?
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Originally posted by moot
So?... There's no such thing as respect. Only recognition of common interests. Religion and moreso faith blow whichever way someone would fancy it to. It aspires to some noble values but is unchecked by reason of any kind.. It pays no respect to reason.
And nothing ranks above reason.
If there's anything that I see in people who will put themselves in harm's way to save others, it's duty.
Well, it turns out now that she worked as a police officer in Minneapolis, before moving to Colorado. So she indeed had law enforcement training.
But even with all of that professional training and experience, she says that it was God who guided her actions, and who also protected her from the gunman.
She had been fasting for 3 days to honor God, before the shooting. So she said that she actually felt quite weak from the fasting, as she came forward to confront the gunman.
So if she was feeling so physically weak, where did all of her strength come from, if not from God??
If she says that it was God that gave her strength, I think we should all be willing to accept that, and not criticize her in any way.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by pengu146
Did they check to see if the gunman had a mental problem?
No, but it appears that he decided to reject Jesus Christ, and now hated all Christians.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by pengu146
Did they check to see if the gunman had a mental problem?
Would you stop to check to see if the guy who was pointing a rifle at you was mentally incapacitated before shooting him?
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Originally posted by SIG220
People often call upon God to help them, in a time of absolute crisis. This often even happens to people that are not all that religious. They suddenly find religion when they find themselves in a really bad situation.
This also happens all the time in war too.
You should not be so critical of the religious beliefs of others. If anything, you should be very respectful of her faith.
SIG 220
Not questioning her faith. Questioning the notion of a God that is selectively active. Her comments suggest that maybe the 4 who died didn't have the Holy Spirit with them? Why did God wait until after someone died?
I've got a problem with it if I accept the notion of a God who steps in when he feels like it to cause people to do things, and he just sits back and let others die.
I don't believe you can have it both ways. I can accept that there is a God who gave us the ability to choose and have free will and then stepped out of the equation to let us use that gift. But to suggest he randomly chooses to intervene is a horrible thing to ponder for me.
How would you explain that to the parents of those two dead kids that the killer shot on the way into the church? God was too busy preparing the security guard to save the two girls?
And I ask in all seriousness as I'm 2 years and 4 months out from having lost 2 of mine
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Guppy,
In all seriousness why don't you ask someone who is a theologian those questions. I doubt you really would do so or want to hear the answers, you are just spreading the pain you seem to be feeling from your loss. Assuming of course your comment in your post previous to this one is true. I am not saying you are not being truthful but there are many folks on the bbs here who troll in a manner just as tasteless as that.
Pick the religious faith you feel most comfortable with and ask a clergymen those questions. You may not hear anything you will want to listen to or believe but it's a far better place to ask questions like that.
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Whether her bullets were guided by jesus or her years of training, I'm glad they found their target.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Whether her bullets were guided by jesus or her years of training, I'm glad they found their target.
Amen to that. Good job.
It turns out she was a CCW holder, that should make Laz happy even if it was a "woman" who had Police firearm training. :p
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071211/ap_on_re_us/church_shootings_security&printer=1;_ylt=Ao0R5ihPXoKef40q6G3Z0v1H2ocA
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Originally posted by Maverick
Guppy,
In all seriousness why don't you ask someone who is a theologian those questions. I doubt you really would do so or want to hear the answers, you are just spreading the pain you seem to be feeling from your loss. Assuming of course your comment in your post previous to this one is true. I am not saying you are not being truthful but there are many folks on the bbs here who troll in a manner just as tasteless as that.
Pick the religious faith you feel most comfortable with and ask a clergymen those questions. You may not hear anything you will want to listen to or believe but it's a far better place to ask questions like that.
Pretty sure Dan isn't phrasing the questions out of need for clarification, lack of spiritual faith or unresolved loss. More like offering some perspective regarding flaws in conflicting logic, as he sees it.
Kudos to the security guard for ending the killing spree. It could have been worse. Whether she was guided by the hand of God or how or .... why .... the event transpired the way it did is not for me to say nor judge, I agree. But Dan's questioning didn't come off as anything other than a genuine challenge to the logic of the statement ... not an attack on the sensibilities of the faithful, to me.
Now I would say this, however .... a three day fast for spiritual reason that made the guard shakey and weak .... until drawing sidearm and dispatching the gunman .... didn't sound like a particularly wise thing to do during her duty hours. Perhaps a day fast on her off hours or something. I've seen the proverbial "baby Christian" go to such extremes then share insight with brethren that drew criticism from fellow parishoners. But .... like I said in the previous paragraph .... not for me to say or judge - I can just see room for a critical eye without it involving desire to insult.
Some of us mortals down here seem convinced they have the answer to the why of it all and present themselves as especially qualified to illuminate the rest of us with God's most intimate thoughts, motivations and methods. And some of us mortals aren't as easily convinced, even to self. Faith doesn't require knowing all the answers. Society progressed past killing holy men (even lay persons) for not knowing all the answers long ago.
The Bible is a wonderful illustration of love and life ... if not taken fanatically literal. Same goes for the Koran, eh? And making up extra stuff to fill in the blanks so those of us struggling to live with our misery can carry on is well and good but not everyone lacks the coping skills to make it. Granted, what's a church service without a sermon? (Well, ask a Quaker.)
Bottom line: Explaining how God's blessings work .... isn't our job. We kinda lack the qualifications for that position (even when we're the tool utilized for a different job). Sometimes the best response to someone's loss isn't having an answer .... it's a shoulder, an ear, a hug, a meal, a ride, an offer to share a burden .... and, of course:
Sincere prayers for all suffering loss in this tragedy.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Guppy,
In all seriousness why don't you ask someone who is a theologian those questions. I doubt you really would do so or want to hear the answers, you are just spreading the pain you seem to be feeling from your loss. Assuming of course your comment in your post previous to this one is true. I am not saying you are not being truthful but there are many folks on the bbs here who troll in a manner just as tasteless as that.
Pick the religious faith you feel most comfortable with and ask a clergymen those questions. You may not hear anything you will want to listen to or believe but it's a far better place to ask questions like that.
Mom's husband is a minister, and my uncle is a minister. Trust me we've had these conversations. They don't have an answer. If anything it's made them question things as well. People wasnt simple answers and folks can live with them unless something comes along that throws that all out the window.
No troll. I'd not be so cruel.
edited to add
It occured to me after I replied that I had something else to say. Should I have not complicated the question by throwing my own experience into it?
Are you uncomfortable with what you describe as me 'spreading my pain"? Should I pretend it didn't happen?
I'm not looking for sympathy when I mention my kids, but it does seem to make folks react. So be it. I hope it complicates things in a discussion like this. One of the hard parts of 'living' with it, is that folks expect it NOT to be part of what goes on and that if mentioned I should look for 'help' elsewhere.
The more I thought about your reply the angrier I got. The condescending tone of your answer as if you are talking down to someone without a clue says a lot.
Cleary it must have been God who wanted me to write my first post just to get you to react.
Glad it's all so black and white for you.
BTW, if I raise the question, yeah I want answers. I'm guessing you don't have one that works.
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Jesus-guided bullets. I like it, but it opens up for other guided systems that may be less cute.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Not questioning her faith. Questioning the notion of a God that is selectively active. Her comments suggest that maybe the 4 who died didn't have the Holy Spirit with them? Why did God wait until after someone died?
I've got a problem with it if I accept the notion of a God who steps in when he feels like it to cause people to do things, and he just sits back and let others die.
I don't believe you can have it both ways. I can accept that there is a God who gave us the ability to choose and have free will and then stepped out of the equation to let us use that gift. But to suggest he randomly chooses to intervene is a horrible thing to ponder for me.
How would you explain that to the parents of those two dead kids that the killer shot on the way into the church? God was too busy preparing the security guard to save the two girls?
And I ask in all seriousness as I'm 2 years and 4 months out from having lost 2 of mine
You have posed a very difficult question to answer.
A possibility.....
There are some people that have an ability to totally surrender themselves to something under certain conditions.
To BLINDLY and TOTALLY trust in something other then themselves. It is a KNOWING?
When I say totally surrender I'm not sure how to explain that statement. It is a surrendering to something without RESERVATIONS of any sort.
Not many can find such a thing within themselves.
Which IMHO is perfectly natural. Letting someone or something have complete control over your body, and your actions, the very thought is frightening.
You LET something IN with NO RESISTANCE, NO THOUGHT, NO FEAR, and NO REGRET and you give it COMPLETE control with NO interference from you.
You ACCEPT. ( OK somehow that seems like the correct way to put it but sounds not quite right? )
It's TRUSTING something is actually there where many, even though they express they believe, have a question, a tiny little doubt. A doubt that prevents them from surrendering themselves? (not sure I've got the phrasing correct here)
IMHO the pilot of the Orion P3 that collided with the Chinese jet over the straights near Taiwan DID just that.
IIRC He said afterward, on the news, that he WAS NOT flying that plane. He was just along for the ride. IIRC He stated that he ASKED for Gods help and then LET God help.
I'm pretty sure, if the lady that did the shooting were to give it serious thought she might say the same thing.
As to why some die and some don't?
I have NO answer. Wish I did. Wish I could tell you something that would help. I could only speculate. I don't think speculation is what you want to hear.
Sadly part of the freewill thing, if I understand it correctly, is that some choose to do evil with their freewill and innocent people can and often are harmed by these actions.
Why does God step in when God choses to step in? Perhaps the above can present a POSSIBLE concept of why, but PLEASE understand I'm not saying that is why.
I don't know why and I will not pretend that I do. I hope this possibility that I present as a maybe answer doesn't say to anyone that I do KNOW.
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Originally posted by texasmom
That's the first time I've ever, ever heard of an armed guard at a church.
Lookin at history in America...
at one time those attending church BROUGHT their firearms, and other weapons WITH them.
AND were prepared to use them at a moments notice. (they were loaded)
Later it somehow became a no-no to bring weapons to church.......
in either case it seems guards weren't considered necessary?
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Maybe "God" required the BG to actually commit to the act before he directed his "servant". What if the BG shouldered his weapon, took aim and then found it was not in his heart to commit such an act?
I'm not in any way demeaning the tragedy, but I'm just trying to put forth a point of view.
Consider this analogy.
You are watching a new addition to a fish tank that is acting strangely, you decide to wait a little, to see just what is going to happen. You don't want to upset the balance of the tank by taking it out unless absolutely necessary. Despite your best efforts, when the new creature starts attacking and killing it's neighbours you lose a few before you can get the offender out of the tank.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Jesus-guided bullets. I like it, but it opens up for other guided systems that may be less cute.
Perhaps Satan was in control of the shooter. Although now there are people saying that he was mentally ill also, and heard voices.
If God exists, then Satan and Hell surely must exist also. So maybe he was the one speaking into this fellow's head and guiding his actions? We have just learned that the shooter was a fan of rocker Marilyn Manson, who we know in real life is a member of the First Church of Satan.
For him to have sung a Manson song at a Christmas Musical event back in December 14, 2002, illustrates just how bizarre his behavior had become, and why he was kicked out of the missionary center back at that time. Can you imagine how the folks in the audience must have reacted to the Manson song? People actually reported that his performance made them feel scared. He was in a group at the center training back then to go to Bosnia to convert Muslims to Christianity, before being thrown out of the organization.
Here is a quote from Manson's autobiography: "The Long Hard Road Out of Hell,":
" It makes a lot more sense to follow the Satanic Bible, written with 20th century humanity in mind, than a book that was written as a companion to a culture long since defunct. Who's to say that a hundred years from now, some idiot isn't going to find a Marilyn Manson T-shirt, nail it to a wall and decide to pray to it. "
So perhaps we need to remember the famous words of the SNL Church Lady. They could possibly apply.
Still, no matter what, we need to ask God to forgive the shooter too, and comfort his family also, who are naturally in pain as well. Like the Virginia Tech shooter, this fellow's family all seem to be good and decent people too.
SIG 220
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So its Marilyn Manson made me do it now?
Ha...I've listen to Marilyn Manson plenty of times...and yet still haven't manage to kill a single person...for all we know a K-Mart catalogue sent him over the edge - crazy doesn't exactly need too much to flip out...sounds like a personal grudge holds more water than humming along to the Beautiful People...
Tronsky
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Originally posted by texasmom
That's the first time I've ever, ever heard of an armed guard at a church.
It's sad, but you rarely see a church without a burglar alarm, or even a funeral home, for that matter (btw, saw the security guard on Fox this am...she's a HOTTIE!)
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Originally posted by wrag
IMHO the pilot of the Orion P3 that collided with the Chinese jet over the straights near Taiwan DID just that.
IIRC He said afterward, on the news, that he WAS NOT flying that plane. He was just along for the ride. IIRC He stated that he ASKED for Gods help and then LET God help.
You know 4 pilots on 9/11 said exactly the same thing.
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Strange how some are trying to turn this into another bash on Christianity.
Peace to the family of those killed by the cheekbones.
Thanks to the security guard for her life saving fast action:
(http://www.thedenverchannel.com/2007/1210/14817484_240X180.jpg)
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Well, I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I believe in personal responsibility. I don't expect God to handle all the problems of the world....that's what WE are here for.
I suppose that is why I have little in common with those who expect the government to solve all of their personal, social, political, and security problems.
The female security guard was armed with three things: a strong faith, a backbone, and the weapon suitable to the task. It is notable that, according to an eyewitness (who was a Vietnam vet) two other guards refused to take any action, and even refused to loan their gun to the vet, who was someone that they knew, so that HE could take out the gunman.
Guppy, I believe we've discussed the loss of your loved ones before in another thread. Being a parent, I can understand the pain of your loss. The highway in front of my house is one of the most dangerous roads in the state. I dread seeing them driving on it everytime they leave the house. It is made dangerous by the idiots that drive on it.
Yet, that is not God's fault. We have free will, and because we are fallible, oftentimes, we misuse that right. In doing so, we place ourselves, and others, in jeopardy. This is a consequence of a refusal to accept the reality of our own mortality. As I said before, we should not expect God to master all the tides of the world. Mortality is necessary to keep the world from becoming overcrowded. God confines most of his activities to the realm of the spirit, which, unlike the flesh is eternal.
I believe that my spirit will someday be reunited with my loved ones who have preceded me in death. My hope for you, is that you can be comforted in your loss, and come to believe in a reunion someday with your family.
Regards, Shuckins
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By the way, that unarmed vet, after failing to convince the other security guard to give up his gun, jumped into the open and yelled at the gunman to distract him, so that other potential victims to escape. Talk about guts! :aok
Also according to him, the female security guard stepped into the open to challenge him. They exchanged fire in a wild west style shootout. After he went down she pleaded with him to drop his weapon and give up. When he continued to try to bring his weapon to bear, she shot him again, ending the crisis.
Courage and compassion. Two of our best attributes...all in a single lady. My hat's off to you lady.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Not questioning her faith. Questioning the notion of a God that is selectively active. Her comments suggest that maybe the 4 who died didn't have the Holy Spirit with them? Why did God wait until after someone died?
I've got a problem with it if I accept the notion of a God who steps in when he feels like it to cause people to do things, and he just sits back and let others die.
I don't believe you can have it both ways. I can accept that there is a God who gave us the ability to choose and have free will and then stepped out of the equation to let us use that gift. But to suggest he randomly chooses to intervene is a horrible thing to ponder for me.
How would you explain that to the parents of those two dead kids that the killer shot on the way into the church? God was too busy preparing the security guard to save the two girls?
And I ask in all seriousness as I'm 2 years and 4 months out from having lost 2 of mine
google spinoza
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Arlo...in this case I think you are right.. it is not ours to explain how god works.
You guys who are mad at your god because he doesn't act the way you want are silly... It is like being mad because you got fired and then never realizing that if you hadn't... you wouldn't have moved on and grown.
lazs
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Mav... you are kidding right? I am thrilled that a woman CCW holder with police training brought down this whackjob ahole before he could kill more sheep.
If you read what I say.... I am all in favor of people getting the best firearms training they can.. I am also a huge huge fan of CCW.. and... I have said in every case that firearms are to equalize.. that maybe the young and strong may not need em (or think they don't) but what about women and the infirm?
I have also said that the shootings will only be stopped by CCW holders who take out the bad guys and ruin their fun and make the imitators all go "dude.. that's sucks.. game over."
Oh.. and my position that a revolver in the hand of a smart shooter is not helpless against an assault weapon seems to be vindicated too.
I think that this whole shooting incident bolsters my position in the best possible way.
I only wish more people at the mall were CCW holders. There probly is no hope for our poor children at the schools tho.. the liberals will let the slaughter continue with their "gun free zone" idiocy.
lazs
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Mom's husband is a minister, and my uncle is a minister. Trust me we've had these conversations. They don't have an answer. If anything it's made them question things as well. People wasnt simple answers and folks can live with them unless something comes along that throws that all out the window.
No troll. I'd not be so cruel.
edited to add
It occurred to me after I replied that I had something else to say. Should I have not complicated the question by throwing my own experience into it?
Are you uncomfortable with what you describe as me 'spreading my pain"? Should I pretend it didn't happen?
I'm not looking for sympathy when I mention my kids, but it does seem to make folks react. So be it. I hope it complicates things in a discussion like this. One of the hard parts of 'living' with it, is that folks expect it NOT to be part of what goes on and that if mentioned I should look for 'help' elsewhere.
The more I thought about your reply the angrier I got. The condescending tone of your answer as if you are talking down to someone without a clue says a lot.
Cleary it must have been God who wanted me to write my first post just to get you to react.
Glad it's all so black and white for you.
BTW, if I raise the question, yeah I want answers. I'm guessing you don't have one that works.
Nope, I wasn't talking down to you a bit. I figured your best bet was to get answers from folks who are far more qualified in the field than people on a game bbs. I had no intention of insulting you at all but a text only means of communication without all of the other nonverbal cues makes getting the idea across difficult.
Frankly your asking THIS group here rather than someone with the theological background is not where I would expect to find any real answers to your questions. In retrospect perhaps no one can answer them. My personal guess, and that's all it is, a guess is that the answers you want can only be found through faith.
You can take my post at face value, and as intended, that you seek answers from someone really qualified to deal with that type of issue or you can infer I was being sarcastic. I can't make it much plainer I'm afraid. I won't try to push my idea of faith onto you or assume I can answer any of your questions. I don't claim to speak for God nor do I assume he needs me to speak for Him.
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Yes Laz, I was kidding, that's why I put the smiley there. I tend not to use the lil suckers when I'm serious. :huh
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Originally posted by SIG220
So if she was feeling so physically weak, where did all of her strength come from, if not from God??
I believe it doesn't take much physical strength to raise a gun and pull the trigger - very much the same reason why this lunatic managed to cause so much harm in the first place.
There's an age old saying - live by the sword, die by the sword. It's easy to shoot someone but it's just as easy to get shot yourself.
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I imagine that she is saying that god gave her the strength of character to do the job...
But.. I don't care.. I am just glad that she found it. I am glad she was there with a revolver and I bet every damn one of the people in that church are glad that they were not in a "gun free zone"
lazs
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Originally posted by SIG220
Perhaps Satan was in control of the shooter. Although now there are people saying that he was mentally ill also, and heard voices.
If God exists, then Satan and Hell surely must exist also. So maybe he was the one speaking into this fellow's head and guiding his actions? We have just learned that the shooter was a fan of rocker Marilyn Manson, who we know in real life is a member of the First Church of Satan.
For him to have sung a Manson song at a Christmas Musical event back in December 14, 2002, illustrates just how bizarre his behavior had become, and why he was kicked out of the missionary center back at that time. Can you imagine how the folks in the audience must have reacted to the Manson song? People actually reported that his performance made them feel scared. He was in a group at the center training back then to go to Bosnia to convert Muslims to Christianity, before being thrown out of the organization.
Here is a quote from Manson's autobiography: "The Long Hard Road Out of Hell,":
" It makes a lot more sense to follow the Satanic Bible, written with 20th century humanity in mind, than a book that was written as a companion to a culture long since defunct. Who's to say that a hundred years from now, some idiot isn't going to find a Marilyn Manson T-shirt, nail it to a wall and decide to pray to it. "
So perhaps we need to remember the famous words of the SNL Church Lady. They could possibly apply.
Still, no matter what, we need to ask God to forgive the shooter too, and comfort his family also, who are naturally in pain as well. Like the Virginia Tech shooter, this fellow's family all seem to be good and decent people too.
SIG 220
'
Manson is great. Not only does he have some cool tunes, he mangages to piss off so many fans of jesus too while giggeling at how seriously they take him as a threat :D
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Originally posted by SIG220
Perhaps
Exactly.
I said the short of my tangential opinion already. It's the premise for a refutal to some (if not all, don't have time to read the whole thread) of the points you're arguing.
Sorry for the derail - obviously I'm more glad than not with the way things turned out at that gathering.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
So its Marilyn Manson made me do it now?
Ha...I've listen to Marilyn Manson plenty of times...and yet still haven't manage to kill a single person...
Spend some time at the practice range and remember, squeeze, don't pull the trigger.
Oops... shouldn't have given that advice... how do you delete?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Frankly your asking THIS group here rather than someone with the theological background is not where I would expect to find any real answers to your questions.
Again, posing questions to peers isn't always about looking for an authoritative answer to quell one's own frustration and confusion (even if there's no authoritative answer in the pocket of the one asking).
Just sayin'.
You've done it yourself. Admit it. ;)
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I think it's obvious God only loves 50% of people.
He's always on the side of the winners. The church gunfighter, the boxer, the nfl player... never on the side of the losers. So much for loving all of his children. :rolleyes:
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I've got a problem with it if I accept the notion of a God who steps in when he feels like it to cause people to do things, and he just sits back and let others die.
I don't believe you can have it both ways. I can accept that there is a God who gave us the ability to choose and have free will and then stepped out of the equation to let us use that gift. But to suggest he randomly chooses to intervene is a horrible thing to ponder for me.
How would you explain that to the parents of those two dead kids that the killer shot on the way into the church? God was too busy preparing the security guard to save the two girls?
And I ask in all seriousness as I'm 2 years and 4 months out from having lost 2 of mine
who says god helped anyone in that church in the first place? just cause some one was there to do the right thing?i dout god goes around like a david copperfield doing tricks. and every time somthing good happens doesnt mean he did it. and every time somthing bad happens,we cant blame him for not stopping it. we have only are selves to blame and only are selves to punish. but just like most people we love to put the blame some were else or use this as a exsample of why god is non exsistent or just cruel. my mom was murderd by my step dad while i was sleeping when i was little..did i blame god for letting this happen? no. i blame that son of a #@$# !#@$ that did it in the first place!!
now say some one was saved from death cause the bullet stopped in mid air and melted. now i would say that was god or somthing..lol. its a good thing the shooter was stopped. not a good thing he took life, i dout any of it has to do with god. most likely alot of bad luck and a little good luck to boot.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Strange how some are trying to turn this into another bash on Christianity.
Peace to the family of those killed by the cheekbones.
Thanks to the security guard for her life saving fast action:
(http://www.thedenverchannel.com/2007/1210/14817484_240X180.jpg)
Don't forget that the killer's family is also suffering terribly right now as well.
And they are as innocent as anyone else in this matter.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by SIG220
And they are as innocent as anyone else in this matter.
SIG 220
not entirely innocent, they raised him.
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Here is some updated news on this story.
It turns out that there was ANOTHER armed security guard in the Colorado Church, but for some reason, he declined to challenge the killer.
A third man, a Vietnam veteran, begged this male guard to hand him his pistol, since he was declining to attack the shooter. However, the guard refused to give up his gun.
Frustrated, the vet then jumped out in the open and shouted: "COWARD" at the killer, in order to draw his fire away from others.
He also witnessed Jeanne Assam's heroic charge, and described how she and the murderer exchanged intense gunfire at each other at close quarters.
It was also revealed that the killer shouted: "I want to kill Christians!"
Here is a link to this new story about the shooting:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22198709/
Besides the written story, there is also a video that you can view.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by john9001
not entirely innocent, they raised him.
That is a most insensitive thing for you to say about them.
Have you no compassion for the suffering of fellow human beings???
The absolutely worst thing that can ever happen to a person is for a parent to lose a child. Nothing else is as emotionally devastating to a person.
They are probably feeling enough guilt and shame at this point, without people saying insensitive things like this about them.
SIG 220
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It seems that the killer's mother and Rev. Ted Haggard played a role in this tragedy as well.
News Article (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/colorado.shootings/index.html)
The kid was obviously crazy, but he didn't become crazy on his own.
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sig220, save your compassion for the parents of the kids he killed, they are the ones that need it.
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Originally posted by john9001
sig220, save your compassion for the parents of the kids he killed, they are the ones that need it.
Curious. You have the ability to remotely triage need of compassion and delegate to others so well. ;)
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Originally posted by TwentyFo
It seems that the killer's mother and Rev. Ted Haggard played a role in this tragedy as well.
News Article (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/11/colorado.shootings/index.html)
The kid was obviously crazy, but he didn't become crazy on his own.
You should contrast the way that you are talking about his parents, with how the New Life Church itself is treating them.
It is quite the stark comparison, no???
SIG 220
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Originally posted by Arlo
Curious. You have the ability to remotely triage need of compassion and delegate to others so well. ;)
So you believe that his parents are not already suffering horribly right now? That would be ridiculous to contemplate. Does not sound like you are a parent yourself, if that is the case.
I'm only saying that one should feel compassion for everyone that has lost loved ones in this matter.
Why is that too much to expect??
Would Jesus say that only select human beings deserve compassion???
SIG 220
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Spend some time at the practice range and remember, squeeze, don't pull the trigger.
Oops... shouldn't have given that advice... how do you delete?
I have a tendency to involuntarily close my right eye on a range...thats probably the problem
Tronsky
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Originally posted by john9001
sig220, save your compassion for the parents of the kids he killed, they are the ones that need it.
I will let Jesus respond:
"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
You know, Jesus would expect us all to forgive the killer, also. I doubt that I am that good enough of a person myself to honestly be able to do that. But I certainly can hold the parents blameless in this matter, and not cast any stones at them.
The infamous Thurston High School shooting took place here in the community that I live in. And there were many here who absolutely vilified Kip Kinkel's parents, even though they were the very first people that he murdered. Kinkel's confession noted that his mother, Faith Kinkel, proved to be very difficult to kill. As he continued to shoot her, she begged him for mercy, as she laid helpless and wounded on the floor. But he continued to fire away, until he had put a total of 6 shots into her chest and head. Finally, she went quiet, and stopped moving.
Feelings against the Kinkels were so very strong, that the city's memorial to the tragedy does not even include their names as victims. This was despite the fact that Faith Kinkel was one of the most liked and respected teachers in the entire High School district, and a huge number of students and fellow teachers came to a memorial service for her that was held by the school district.
The father, Bill Kinkel, had also had a long and distinguished career with the school district. But he had already retired, and was just teaching part time at the local community college when the tragedy took place.
So I have seen these kind of feelings expressed before. I listened to a lot of these sort of comments being expressed by many folks back then, condemning the parents, for the actions of their child.
But I still do not agree with them.
SIG 220
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indy said... "I think it's obvious God only loves 50% of people.
He's always on the side of the winners. The church gunfighter, the boxer, the nfl player... never on the side of the losers. So much for loving all of his children. "
while glib.. It doesn't really show much thought. How do you know that the outcome that happens isn't the best that could happen for both the winners and the losers?
As for the parents of the kid.. I agree with sig that there is no reason to punish them. Not unless they told the kid to do it and are thrilled with the result.
lazs
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Originally posted by SIG220
Here is a link to this new story about the shooting:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22198709/
Besides the written story, there is also a video that you can view.
SIG 220
Wow, amazing courage. We could certainly put a damper on these crazy shootings if more responsible people like these two carried.
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I don't think I would like to be the guy who froze up and didn't shoot at the killer.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
indy said... "I think it's obvious God only loves 50% of people.
He's always on the side of the winners. The church gunfighter, the boxer, the nfl player... never on the side of the losers. So much for loving all of his children. "
while glib.. It doesn't really show much thought. How do you know that the outcome that happens isn't the best that could happen for both the winners and the losers?
lazs
We're talking about the same God that flooded the world, told a guy to kill his son, sent an angel to slaughter children, and condemns people to torture for an unimaginable time-span, right? Sounds like a sweetheartbag to me.
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Laz,
I'd bet that the person who froze up is likely to take his own life soon. With all of the publicity I doubt he would be able to live in that area at all. I'm not saying I want that to happen, he just lost himself in his fear. I just don't see him being able to get past it. That will end up making him yet another victim of the shooter.
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Originally posted by SIG220
I will let Jesus respond:
"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
You know, Jesus would expect us all to forgive the killer, also. I doubt that I am that good enough of a person myself to honestly be able to do that. But I certainly can hold the parents blameless in this matter, and not cast any stones at them.
The infamous Thurston High School shooting took place here in the community that I live in. And there were many here who absolutely vilified Kip Kinkel's parents, even though they were the very first people that he murdered. Kinkel's confession noted that his mother, Faith Kinkel, proved to be very difficult to kill. As he continued to shoot her, she begged him for mercy, as she laid helpless and wounded on the floor. But he continued to fire away, until he had put a total of 6 shots into her chest and head. Finally, she went quiet, and stopped moving.
Feelings against the Kinkels were so very strong, that the city's memorial to the tragedy does not even include their names as victims. This was despite the fact that Faith Kinkel was one of the most liked and respected teachers in the entire High School district, and a huge number of students and fellow teachers came to a memorial service for her that was held by the school district.
The father, Bill Kinkel, had also had a long and distinguished career with the school district. But he had already retired, and was just teaching part time at the local community college when the tragedy took place.
So I have seen these kind of feelings expressed before. I listened to a lot of these sort of comments being expressed by many folks back then, condemning the parents, for the actions of their child.
But I still do not agree with them.
SIG 220
SIG,
You apparently have a lot of compassion and I, for one, am happy to see that.
This will all unfold in the fullness of time.
For what it's worth, Matthew Murray was a homicidal maniac and though blame can be found in others for disfunctional aspects of his life that affected him, he alone is responsible for his actions, in my view.
He knew he was deranged yet did not turn himself in.
For some insight as to his BBS postings... his UserID was nghtmrchld26 on the http://p223.ezboard.com/Ex-Pentecostal-Forums/bexpentecostalforums BBS.
This is a recent thread Matthew Murray started --> http://p223.ezboard.com/Drowning-in-despair/fexpentecostalforumsfrm7.showMessage?topicID=1828.topic
For me, I have to focus on others he almost killed and those he hurt and killed at this point... not Matthew, thus I leave that to others.
He was the equiv of a rabid dog, imv; how he got rabid was whatever it was. I feel sorry for him; I would have shot him to stop him from continuing his killing of innocent people in that church.
In his BBS writings, he blamed his Mother and religion and rock music he choose to listen to.
I took a look at a youtube Rock video he posted a link to. I can not and will not post that link here; its content is against AH BBS policies plus it's content is disturbing to me.
TIGERESS
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I don't feel sorry for him. He was a cold blooded killer. The best thing to do with a person like that is forget him. Let the authorities worry about the why, but as far as he goes, he just becomes cold blooded psychpath # ?????. That way these idiots can not say, "Watch this, I am going to be infamous one day." If there is no personal recognition, it might just stop some of these sweetheart bags
As for his poem, he sounds like just one more goth kid who is having a pity party for himself. These psychopaths need to look inside and realise they are the only ones who can force change in their life.
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Originally posted by SIG220
The infamous Thurston High School shooting took place here in the community that I live in. And there were many here who absolutely vilified Kip Kinkel's parents, even though they were the very first people that he murdered.
Had Kinkel's parents been carrying, they could have returned fire and...
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Originally posted by SIG220
B]SNIP>
Perhaps she will be nominated for the Presidential Medal of Freedom?? I think that she may very well deserve to get it. Just think how many could have potentially died at the church, if not for her fast action.
SIG 220 [/B]
I doubt it ... Bush is to busy Pardoning Crooks to be bothered it ...[
29 crooks pardoned (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22214927/)
:noid ...
Bob/CHECKERS
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that bush, he be a bad man, unlike clinton :rolleyes:
http://www.time.com/time/2007/presidential_pardons/10.html
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Originally posted by indy007
We're talking about the same God that flooded the world, told a guy to kill his son, sent an angel to slaughter children, and condemns people to torture for an unimaginable time-span, right? Sounds like a sweetheartbag to me.
Hear hear! :aok
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Originally posted by john9001
that bush, he be a bad man, unlike clinton :rolleyes:
http://www.time.com/time/2007/presidential_pardons/10.html
Clinton and Bush are both a POS IMO.
Bob
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Originally posted by indy007
We're talking about the same God that flooded the world, told a guy to kill his son, sent an angel to slaughter children, and condemns people to torture for an unimaginable time-span, right? Sounds like a sweetheartbag to me.
Its a 2000 year old movie script that someone took too seriously. Im just waiting for someone to pop up saying that someone in their family wrote the book and wants to cash in :aok
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mav.. You may be right but I hope not.. I hope the guy can get past it..
indy... again.. how do you know that gods will.. no matter what it is.. is not the best thing?
It is like when some are kicked out of moms basement... seems like a cruel thing at the time but....
lazs