Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tigeress on December 11, 2007, 11:31:45 AM
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Although there are two threads on the recent mass shootings, the subject of Guns in Church seems, correctly, to be a topic of its own.
I have read that Jeanne Assum, a civilian CCW gun carrying woman in the church congregation who took out the Colorado Shooter is deemed, by some, to a criminal for the reason of carrying a gun in church; churches being typically a Gun Free Zone.
What are your thoughts?
And please keep your emotions in check on either side of such a debate.
The intent is to calmly discuss and explore... not insult each other.
Some people are secular; others are not; room for everyone.
If this thread gets out of hand Skuzzy will shut it down and probably hand out a few bans in the process, so word to the wise... please keep it civil and respectful.
TIGERESS
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well honestly if the government tries to make any law on what can and can not be carried in a Church it would be unconstitutional.
that whole separation thing has to go both ways ya see... otherwise us Christians better get equal billing and be allowed to put up crosses on public buildings and such.
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Guns yes, snakes, maybe not. ;)
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what would be a reason for not having a gun in church?
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Originally posted by JB73
that whole separation thing has to go both ways ya see... otherwise us Christians better get equal billing and be allowed to put up crosses on public buildings and such.
WHile I agree with the first part of your statement, I have a huge agreement with the second. There is no separtation of church and state. No were does it say that in the constitution.
Keeping on sujbect, churches are private property and would thus be able to make there own rules as far as possesion and concealed carry.
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Originally posted by JB73
well honestly if the government tries to make any law on what can and can not be carried in a Church it would be unconstitutional.
that whole separation thing has to go both ways ya see... otherwise us Christians better get equal billing and be allowed to put up crosses on public buildings and such.
I seriously doubt that lawmakers decide whether a Church is a Gun Free Zone or not. It's up to the Church itself... correct me if I am wrong about this.
This is about the concept and realities of churches being Gun Free Zones.
In my view, God gave us all the responsibility and means to defend ourselves from predators. I don't second-guess God so I don't assume what He thinks on this one way or the other... rather it’s about what we humans think.
Jeanne brought a gun with her; she used it; and saved countless human lives.
Should others legally licensed to carry concealed firearms by State Government do the same as she?
TIGERESS
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I read that the woman who shot the murdering scum in the church was their security guard.
I do not see any problem with anyone with a CCW carrying in a church.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
I read that the woman who shot the murdering scum in the church was their security guard.
I do not see any problem with anyone with a CCW carrying in a church.
Turns out she was not a professional security guard on paid duty as previously reported by the media.
The media also reported the armed defender was a man; they got that wrong too.
TIGERESS
Edit: from --> http://www.charlotte.com/nation/story/399753.html
Excerpts:
Attacks force churches to boost security
By ERIC GORSKI
AP Religion Writer
"COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. --When a black-clad gunman walked into New Life Church on Sunday and started shooting, he was met with the church's first line of defense: a congregant with a concealed-weapons permit and a law enforcement background.
The armed volunteer, Jeanne Assam, shot the gunman, who police said may have committed suicide. New Life's pastor credited her with saving dozens more lives.
Even without a security department, churches can train volunteers to keep watch for suspicious behavior, such as a visitor dressed in a long coat in summer or not making eye contact with anyone, Smith said.
Even before the founding pastor, the now-disgraced Ted Haggard, became a player on the national political stage, the church endured death threats against him. There were bomb scares and vandalism, including animal blood being splashed on the walls, said Patton Dodd of Colorado Springs, a former New Life Church staff member and editor with the Web site Beliefnet.
"Even back then we had people undercover in the congregation who were armed," Dodd said. "It was a big church at the time, it was Christian, and some people really hate that stuff.
"Not only do we have military and ex-military all over, we have this sort of frontier mentality. People around here are serious about protecting their own."
Assam, the [sic]security guard, had attended the church's early worship service at 9 a.m., then stood watch in the rotunda of as the second service was letting out.
There, she confronted the gunman, identified as 24-year-old Matthew Murray. Murray managed to two kill two sisters and wound their father and two others before he was killed. At a news conference Monday, Assam said that she prayed for the Holy Spirit to guide her, and that her hands never shook.
American Jews have long stressed the need to safeguard their community organizations, schools and synagogues. Many groups formed security committees.
The Homeland Security Department created a grant program of nearly $50 million to improve security for religious and secular nonprofits considered at risk of terrorist attack.
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So it was not one of those rare occassions where the media was right. In their race to be first they release anything.... sad but true. In the past those type news services would be ignored for lack of integrity.
Sorry ... do not mean to hijack the thread
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It doesn't have anything to do with religion, at all. Bringing religion into is a disservice to the arguement. The entire problem is the idea of "Gun Free Zones" period. It doesn't matter if it's a church, mall, elementary school, or 10 storey office building.
"Gun Free Zones" obviously do not work, and should be unconstitutional.
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If I recall correctly when MN's CCW law was revised a few years ago the gun free zones were to be schools and any organization that put in 1.5 inch aerial text that this premise was gun free. A number of more liberally minded religious organizations sued and found a lenient judge that indicated houses of worship did not have to post such a sign to be considered gun free zones. I haven't followed all that has happened since. But regarding the topic, I believe that it is up to each congregation as to what they want.
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Originally posted by indy007
It doesn't have anything to do with religion, at all.
There are those who would argue that point with you as far as their personal views are concerned.
You can't protect people from themselves most times... but you can discuss and explore with people, pros and cons, and hear what they have to say.
In recent days I have come to realize the false illusion of safety a "Gun Free Zone" represents. Until the Pink Thread I have never even considered it.
As I have learned recently, Churchgoers in some churches are armed while attending services with full knowledge and blessing of their pastor and stand ready to defend.
TIGERESS
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Originally posted by indy007
It doesn't have anything to do with religion, at all. Bringing religion into is a disservice to the arguement. The entire problem is the idea of "Gun Free Zones" period. It doesn't matter if it's a church, mall, elementary school, or 10 storey office building.
"Gun Free Zones" obviously do not work, and should be unconstitutional.
So you are suggesting then that any private business or home, could not ask people not to bring guns into them?
How would it be unconstitutional for a church and it's members to decide whether they want guns on the premises or not?
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Originally posted by Guppy35
So you are suggesting then that any private business or home, could not ask people not to bring guns into them?
How would it be unconstitutional for a church and it's members to decide whether they want guns on the premises or not?
Yes. It's not about what you feel or want. It's about a basic right to life, and the ability to preserve your own in self-defense. Just because you're standing in a place that some people consider "sacred", why would that change? Religion can not trump individual rights, or we might as well be living in the dark ages.
edit: cross out dark ages, replace with Pakistan.
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Tigress...you are preching to the converted. Anyone with a differing opinion has already been run out of Dodge.
These gun threads are nothing more than AH BBS masterbation these days.
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Originally posted by Curval
Tigress...you are preching to the converted. Anyone with a differing opinion has already been run out of Dodge.
These gun threads are nothing more than AH BBS masterbation these days.
Understood, dear, but I am seeing folks who don't obviously read the gun threads who might have something to say.
TIGERESS
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Originally posted by Tigeress
Understood, dear, but I am seeing folks who don't obviously read the gun threads who might have something to say.
TIGERESS
Seeing or seeking?
If the former, well good luck to 'em. I give the threads a glance but rarely comment anymore. If "seeking" then don't hold your breath. It is impossible to have a civil conversation on the topic here. All you need to do is dredge up a few old posts and everything that can be said has been. Effect...none.
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You're in a pretty sad situation if you need guns at the chuch to protect yourself from the guns.
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It's a law in Virginia that you cannot carry a gun in church WHILE sevices are being held without good or suficient reason. If services aren't being held it's legal to carry. Kinda weird in my opinion but that's the law.
Where Unlawful to Carry in the State/Commonwealth of Virginia
§18.2-308 (J.3.): No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
§18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.
§18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason.
§18.2-283.1: Courthouse.
§18.2-308.1: School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.
§18.2-287.01: Carrying weapon in air carrier airport terminal.
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To the best of my knowledge (recently went through CCW training in CO), churches are not exempt from the requirement to conspicously post signs banning fire arms on the premise. Only a few types of establishments have implicit "no-carry" rules (government buildings, all schools, bars).
For the record, posting a "No fire arms allowed" rule is little more than an invitation for the armed criminal to come in and do as he/she pleases. This last Sunday, I was in church, within only a few miles of one of these churches that was struck. We were ajourned early and told to go home, as there was concern by the church leadership that those involved might be randomly targeting churches in the area. This bothered me, as it seemed like giving into fear; however, as I was not armed and did not know if anyone else was armed, I can understand the precaution.
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"Gun Free Zone" laws/signs only prevent the law/rules abiding from bringing a gun. The folks with ill intent may disregard even the most strongly worded sign.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
It's a law in Virginia that you cannot carry a gun in church WHILE sevices are being held without good or suficient reason. If services aren't being held it's legal to carry. Kinda weird in my opinion but that's the law.
Where Unlawful to Carry in the State/Commonwealth of Virginia
§18.2-308 (J.3.): No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia, nothing herein shall prohibit any sworn law-enforcement officer from carrying a concealed handgun on the premises of such restaurant or club or any owner or event sponsor or his employees from carrying a concealed handgun while on duty at such restaurant or club if such person has a concealed handgun permit.
§18.2-308 (O.): Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited.
§18.2-283: To a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place, without good and sufficient reason.
§18.2-283.1: Courthouse.
§18.2-308.1: School property. Exemptions to this statute include a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.
§18.2-287.01: Carrying weapon in air carrier airport terminal.
I wonder who determines what a "good and sufficient reason" is? After the recent church shooting, it being a church seems reason enough to me.
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Originally posted by Brownshirt
You're in a pretty sad situation if you need guns at the chuch to protect yourself from the guns.
Well, the problem being faced is "people with guns" wishing to do harm to innocent people.
Interesting UserID, by the way... conjures up some recollection from history classes. WWII German Stormtroopers aka Brownshirts, yes?
TIGERESS
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Originally posted by indy007
Yes. It's not about what you feel or want. It's about a basic right to life, and the ability to preserve your own in self-defense. Just because you're standing in a place that some people consider "sacred", why would that change? Religion can not trump individual rights, or we might as well be living in the dark ages.
edit: cross out dark ages, replace with Pakistan.
Agreed! You have the right not to go to that church if you disagree with it's thoughts or beliefs. So your rights are still preserved.
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I didn't read this whole thread yet...just the opening remarks by her majesty Tigress:D
Where I live , and this is just saying , not discussing LAW abiding...
There are not very many places I can remember if ANY that have a detector for wepons. Courhouses yeah....But to be blunt....
I could take my 9mm in my STATE OFFICE BUILDING ANYTIME and no one would know. And there are Troopers all over the place.
The ONLY time having a gun in a No gun zone around here would matter is if you pulled it.
Retaurants...ALOT of office buildings.....Most ANY place you go....you could have it.
I could carry a gun in church anytime.
Now do I think you should be able to carry in a church? Sure....but the real question here is ......How the hell we have gotten to the point as a nation and society that we would even CONTINPLATE it.
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Answer: No one sees my concealed firearm.
If conditions are such that it has to be displayed, it will come out smoking. Under those conditions I won't worry about being cited afterwards.
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Originally posted by rogwar
Answer: No one sees my concealed firearm.
If conditions are such that it has to be displayed, it will come out smoking. Under those conditions I won't worry about being cited afterwards.
Exactly.
As was discussed in the other thread about CCW.....Any place I carried....whether it was a "gun free zone" or not and I saw someone going to do much harm...AND I could pull that gun out.....I'll take my chances on what happens later.
Pulling the gun in the first place......is the HARDEST part. Once you pull it.....you better be willing to use it if need be.
If that makes sense to anyone.
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I have carried in a church many times. As long as it's legal in your jurisdiction it's a non issue.
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Originally posted by Brownshirt
You're in a pretty sad situation if you need guns at the chuch to protect yourself from the guns.
Welcome to the good old US of A!
I was a police officer for nearly 5 years in Oklahoma, between 1996 and 2001. Everyone at my church who knew who I was, knew what I did for a living. I had Sundays off. I carried every time I stepped into the place. And not just there. Everywhere I went.
Now, I work for a major Telecommunications Provider where I dig holes and fix Fiber Optic lines. I have no need to carry. Besides, if I did carry on the job, I would be fired swiftly if a manager found out.
:aok
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I play Golf with a Cop almost weekly....He carries ALL THE TIME....
Certain golf course in the area....:lol ...its a good thing TO carry and extra "Club":lol because of there location.
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Its simple really, I'm not sure why all this fuss.
A private establishment should, and does, have the right to say "No Guns", the same way they have the right to say "No Skateboards". You don't like their policy, you are free to shop, worship, attend, or carouse elsewhere.
No government (state, local, federal) has the right to infringe upon your right to bear arms in any government building (post office, dmv, courthouse, ABC store, etc) or in a private establishment (bar, church, movie theater, etc). But they do it anyway, because the sheeple love abiding by signs.
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Originally posted by RedTop
I didn't read this whole thread yet...just the opening remarks by her majesty Tigress:D
Where I live , and this is just saying , not discussing LAW abiding...
There are not very many places I can remember if ANY that have a detector for wepons. Courhouses yeah....But to be blunt....
I could take my 9mm in my STATE OFFICE BUILDING ANYTIME and no one would know. And there are Troopers all over the place.
The ONLY time having a gun in a No gun zone around here would matter is if you pulled it.
Retaurants...ALOT of office buildings.....Most ANY place you go....you could have it.
I could carry a gun in church anytime.
Now do I think you should be able to carry in a church? Sure....but the real question here is ......How the hell we have gotten to the point as a nation and society that we would even CONTINPLATE it.
I admit my cheeks turned red when I read your opening line lol
But some of them gun boys can get rowdy, thass all. :p
Plus religion always seems to spark contention it seems.
911 changed our lives forever...
Also we have nut cases looking for something to do as well coupled with endless blogs on the net and 24/7/365 cable news channels spewing the same thing in a loop over and over again also constitute what has changed in our lives, imv.
School shootings; church shootings; mall shootings change the nature of our lives and I for one am tired of being a potential walking talking target.
I don't own a gun; have never owned a gun; don't know that I will ever own a gun... but I might as some point. I really care less about guns for the sake of guns... I care about my welfare and that of innocent people.
A church as a Gun Free Zone is a potential death trap as I have learned.
When this country was born; in was in the soil of a wild untamed land and people had to pull together to survive.
In a way, we seem to be repeating history to a degree.
TIGERESS
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"no guns signs"
one afternoon, needing to quench my thirst, i stopped in a biker bar out on the beach. At the front door was a sign that said, "no guns, knives, blackjacks, clubs, or any weapons allowed inside".
i wonder if the patrons really obeyed the sign or if the sign was just there to protect the owner's liability.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Agreed! You have the right not to go to that church if you disagree with it's thoughts or beliefs. So your rights are still preserved.
I don't go to church. I don't dig on organized religion. My mom however, works at a Church, so unfortunately I have swing into one on occasion. Never for service thankfully.
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Originally posted by Tigeress
In my view, God gave us all the responsibility and means to defend ourselves from predators.
Just as he gave us the means to have gay sex.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Just as he gave us the means to have gay sex.
Is there a point you are making?
If it makes you happier, let me change "In my view, God gave us all the responsibility and means to defend ourselves from predators." to "In my view, God gave us all the responsibility and instincts to defend ourselves from predators."
Better? :)
TIGERESS
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Originally posted by Tigeress
Is there a point you are making?
No.
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Exiting the closet there thrawn?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Exiting the closet there thrawn?
...mmmmmaybe.
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I say pack in church. God expects us to fight evil.
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Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praise_the_Lord_and_Pass_the_Ammunition)
Origin of the Song
According to the song a chaplain ("sky pilot") was with some fighting men who were being attacked by an enemy. (Generally given at the time to be the Japanese at Pearl Harbor.) He was asked to say a prayer for the men who were engaged in the firing at the on-coming Japanese planes. The chaplain; the song went on to infer, put down his bible, manned one of the ship's gun turrets and begin firing back, saying, "Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition". Now; however, there are no facts available setting the story straight.
According to the writer, Jack S. McDowall, through the years the lyrics of the song have generally credited "a chaplain" manning the gun turrets of a ship, while under attack. "This was not true". says, McDowell.
For some time, long after the attack at Pearl Harbor, stories and reports continued to pop-up about the incident, involving a chaplain who was to have uttered the now famous words, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."
These stories eventually made their way through the servicemen back to the press. The press, as McDowell noted, . . . led some writers erroneously to identify other chaplains as authors of the phrase.
Nonetheless, the real Chaplain, Howell Forgy, aboard the USS New Orleans; during the Japanese attack, was that Chaplain. He was a Lieutenant (j.g.) on that Sunday morning in December, 1941.
Another Lieutenant who had been in charge of an ammunition line on the USS New Orleans during the attack remembered.
"I heard a voice behind me saying, Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. I turned and saw Chaplain Forgy walking toward me along the line of men. He was patting the men on the back and making that remark to cheer them and keep them going. I know it helped me a lot, too", he said.
Another Lieutenant j.g. said, the men aboard the USS New Orleans would thereafter kid Chaplain Forgy about the role he played whenever they heard the song that had been written. They also encouraged him to set the record straight as to who actually said what. According to that same Lieutenant the Chaplain would decline, saying he felt "the episode should remain a legend rather than be associated with any particular person." Author McDowell said that press reporters were eventually permitted to interview men of the USS New Orleans involved in the "ammunition" story. Chaplain Forgy's superior officers set up a meeting with some of the press and; at last, the real story of the song and the man who had inspired it was finally confirmed.
In 1942, a recording by The Merry Macs reached number 8 on the Billboard chart. The 1943 version by Kay Kyser and His Orchestra reached number 1.
Loesser donated his royalties for sale of the song to the Navy Relief Society.
:aok
Mac
Hmmmm Nuff said?
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You're in a pretty sad situation if you need guns at the chuch to protect yourself from the guns.
Fortunately, such incidents are so statistically rare that packing in church is more of luxury to ease a fear of the improbable than an actual need. Definitely a right that should exist should that exceedingly rare event ever take place, but not a real life practical concern for most worshipers.
Charon
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Just for you, Mac!
Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition-Kay Kyser-1943-78RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJFSNTCNjOM
A modern day video downloadable via the internet of a 1943 78 rpm phonograph on a period phonograph player. dang...
TIGERESS
EDIT: I mistook the player for a pure mechanical one... that wasn't the case.
coo2u2 dear
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Originally posted by Tigeress
Just for you, Mac!
Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition-Kay Kyser-1943-78RPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJFSNTCNjOM
A modern day video downloadable via the internet of a 1943 78 rpm phonograph playing on a non-electric wind-up phonograph player. dang...
TIGERESS
Always after me Lucky Charms.....
Coo
Mac
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Originally posted by Brownshirt
You're in a pretty sad situation if you need guns at the chuch to protect yourself from the guns.
We arent protecting ourselves from guns. Were protecting ourselves from evil people. Good lord why would we have to protect ourselves from a tool?