Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Guppy35 on December 12, 2007, 08:34:26 PM
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New build 190D9 with an Allison engine. From Tom Blair's collection in Florida. Test flights soon
He has 2 Spits, a 4 Cannon Tropical Vc and a Spitfire IX. In fact I think he has a Spit 14 too. He also has two Flugwerke 190s an A8 and this D9 to go with other warbirds.
Must be nice to be rich :)
Link to the engine run
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/gardnerpilot/?action=view¤t=Dec07132.flv
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/gardnerpilot/Dec07142.jpg)
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Thanks a bunch Guppy! :)..... but an Allison engine??
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^ A million P40s just came. :D
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I am not a fan of 190'S but that pic is so sexy!Exept for lack of guns.
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OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
M U S T ... H A V E ... N O W
I heard they were talking about one, and started a bit of work... now I MUST win the lottery. Damn the huge prop spinning is sexy!
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If you win the lottery, I'll come work for you as machine shop chief and we'll get in the LW kit plane biz... The first thing we'll do is machine a real DB engine for that 190D you'll buy.
An Allison in a 190D9.. wow. :lol
I guess the possible good news is we could get some kind of extra data about the 190D9's aerobatic performance.
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Originally posted by moot
If you win the lottery, I'll come work for you as machine shop chief and we'll get in the LW kit plane biz... The first thing we'll do is machine a real DB engine for that 190D you'll buy.
An Allison in a 190D9.. wow. :lol
I guess the possible good news is we could get some kind of extra data about the 190D9's aerobatic performance.
Not to worry, Paul Allen has the 190D12 and thats in line for restoration to fly as well.
One of the Flugwerk 190D9s is going to have a real DB603 also
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D9 used I believe a Jumo engine. Usually used in the Ju88 etc.
I believe it was the Jumo2213A water methanol boosted 2,240hp.
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Originally posted by Hajo
D9 used I believe a Jumo engine. Usually used in the Ju88 etc.
I believe it was the Jumo2213A water methanol boosted 2,240hp.
My mistake, Jumo 213. Apparenlty the White 1 foundation has a couple of the Jumo's too.
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It would be interesting to try and get some data about these stunning aircraft for our personal use here.
From what I've read of the Dora, both by German and American reports, the Dora was more than a match for the P-51 D.
This is sadly far from the truth in-game. Put two equal pilots in a Dora and Delta and the Dora has no chance in an even fight.
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A quick search of his name in google brings up this.. must be one of his spits.
http://www.targeta.co.uk/pages/071_7421w5.htm
source page (http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:CzInv99GbEYJ:www.targeta.co.uk/flying_legends_2007.htm+Tom+Blair+ww2+warbirds&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us)
and this appears to be the spit14.
http://www.military-airshows.co.uk/duxfordsept2006/img_1237.jpg
source page (http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache:4y2tbuT65OoJ:www.military-airshows.co.uk/spitaw.htm+Tom+Blair+ww2+warbirds&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us)
must be nice
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Great pic and link! Thx Guppy.
-C+
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Originally posted by Xasthur
This is sadly far from the truth in-game. Put two equal pilots in a Dora and Delta and the Dora has no chance in an even fight.
I can't agree with that. As long as you keep the fight at or below 20k feet the Dora is superior to the Pony in all regimes of flight. The Dora even out-turns the Pony using flaps (just barely).
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No.. The D9 doesn't turn sustained with the 51D.
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According to Gonzo's fighter comparison tables it does. 633 feet radius for the Pony with flaps, and 627 feet for the Dora.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
In any case, turning against the Pony is not what I would have done. I would have used the Dora's vastly superior climb rate to build up and E advantage.
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Originally posted by moot
No.. The D9 doesn't turn sustained with the 51D.
for emphasis.
GS, you know how much time I have in the dora, probably more than anyone in game, unless MANDOBLE is flying under shades lol.
Equal pilots, the dora is no match for a pony, the pony has too many easy "outs" where if the dora follows, or attempts to stay in position it will lose.
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Oh? I will defer to your greater experience then since I hardy fly 190's these days.
But ... I find it difficult to believe that you cannot maintain a E advantage against the Pony. The Dora has acceleration, climb and speed over the Pony.
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D9 also has more drag then a P51.
P51 also faster at altitude.
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Originally posted by Hajo
D9 also has more drag then a P51.
Which means you can slow down quicker when you need to.
Originally posted by Hajo
P51 also faster at altitude.
Yes, above 21k the Pony is faster. Below 20k the Dora is faster (10 mph at SL). How often do you fight above 20k in the MA ... or duel above 20k?
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Any flight testing done with an allison engine wouldn't reflect what the real WW2 plane could do.
For starters, it doesn't have the radio, the MW, the weapons, the 500+ rounds of ammunition, the armored glass and cockpit, the sillfully trained pilot that knows how to turn the plane without spinning it out and crashing a horrible death (okay, an exaggeration, but you get my point).
It might very well fly like a spitfire in its current state, but that doesn't mean the real thing did.
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Originally posted by Viking
Oh? I will defer to your greater experience then since I hardy fly 190's these days.
But ... I find it difficult to believe that you cannot maintain a E advantage against the Pony. The Dora has acceleration, climb and speed over the Pony.
BTW I was quoting the "for emphasis" while you were typing yours, so I hope you don't think I was talking about your posts...
anyway, there are many ways to fight in the dora, and flying full flaps in it is a BAD place to be in even 1-1. it is sooooo unstable it isn't funny. the stall edge is a razorblade, and once you flop a bit you just lost the fight.
remember we are talking about equal pilots here, the pony guy won't bother fighting vert and slashing, he will fight to the pony strengths.
but those are just my thoughts on the matter.
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I doubt it will fly anything like a Spit ... or a real Dora for that matter. Since they're probably not going to have a WEP setting available that Allison will have little more than half the power of the Jumo.
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Originally posted by JB73
remember we are talking about equal pilots here, the pony guy won't bother fighting vert and slashing, he will fight to the pony strengths.
I agree, but what choice does he have? The faster and better climbing plane controls the fight. All he can do is hope the Dora pilot makes a mistake and capitalize on it. (Granted the Dora is very unforgiving to mistakes.)
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Out-climbing or otherwise regaining E faster than the pony is the D9's only chance. Scissors would just delay the outcome.
The pony has less drag, can reach out to ~500y with its guns easily, can put its flaps out starting at 400mph, and all the way down to a 125mph stall fight will hold advantage over the D9.
It couldn't keep up with the D9's scissors, but doesn't have to, with low speed stability advantage and faster airbraking, the only possible vulnerability would be for the D9 to out-accelerate from such a slow fight, but with any two equal pilots that aren't noobs, the D9 would get away with lots of bullet holes at best.
Its advantage from then on would only be significant if at this stage the fight was happening down on the deck, and that would mean the D9 wouldn't have had much of a chance escaping from a level acceleration.
The best chance against a pony would be to beat it at around 16kft or so, in the valley of advantage it holds in speed and acceleration somewhere between very high and medium speeds.
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Moot, the Dora handily out-accelerates the Pony at all altitudes below 20k. On the deck the Pony takes 52 seconds to accelerate from 150 to 350 mph. The Dora only takes 39 seconds.
If for some reason the Pony should get on the Dora's tail (only possible if the Dora makes a BIG mistake) the Dora could always spiral-climb out of trouble.
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However, if the pony gets any speed up, it keeps it forever, whereas the dora bleeds its very quickly. Even with 10 minutes of WEP, the dora most often has trouble keeping up with the pony. The pony noses down, levels, and the dora falls behind even though it matched the move.
Pulling high-drag moves (like a spiral) are more likely going to end with the dora bled dry and the pony with E to spare.
But then, I'm no expert...
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No... The dora doesn't turn well enough to deny the solution with a tighter spiral climb, and a wider one just bets on the pony not cutting angle and landing a killshot, or crippling the D9s chances at least.
In the time the Dora takes to accelerate, the Pony can land plenty of hits to turn the odds on its side.
It would take forever to build a real advantage over the Pony that way, and unless you do, the D9 just can't draw tight enough bends to turn back into the Pony. It just doesn't happen... Unless you go for the marathon outclimbing method.
It just doesn't work Viking. It's even worse (like orders of magnitude worse) when you've got not a 1:1 but numbers like in a scenario.
The only plane I've felt safe to definitely beat a pony in was the AH1 Ta152, and the A5 now. The 152 could really stall fight much better (with a 30mm instead of 2 50's = 1 hit kill), as well as edge out the pony in E retention. That was an advantage.
The A5's agility also has a clear advantage in its quick response time over the 51D, compared to the splitting hair difference in practical effectiveness between the D9 and the 51D.
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Actually the plane I feel most comfortable in against a Pony is the 109K. It's a bonafide Pony-killer. The Pony can escape by diving, but that's all.
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Yeah, I was thinking in relation to the 190D.
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Dora vs Temp ,on other forums translated by Alex Voicu
"""i tried to translate this from an article in a romanian magazine. It's a fragment from the book "Une sacree guerre" by P. Clostermann:
On 25 of April 1945, just before the end of the war, i was on combat patrol with another 5 Tempests along the Osnabruck-Breme highway, over the great Dummersee lake. I was flying the best RAF fighter and the war was almost over; in short, i was in a sort of state that English call overconfidence. Nevertheless, in the last few weeks 1/JG26 shot down 14 of our Tempests. An entire allied squadron!
Suddenly, a Long Nose FW190 comes out of a cloud; i see him with the corner of my eye coming like an arrow, and before i can even move, the Tempest on my right explodes...then another explosion on my right, a wing floats like a leaf and the Focke Wulf vanishes into another cloud, only to show up somewhere in front of me, just above the lake surface. I called one of my pilots on the radio and asked him to take over: "Cover me, i'm going, i'm going after him, keep your altitude". Then i said something to remember: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"
I would like to add here that RAF issued every month a confidential magazine, with advice and information considered useful for pilots, which included the most stupid mistakes we did, of course with the intention of avoiding them in the future. In one of these issues, under the "Most famous last words" headline (i could have removed the sentence of course, i had the power, it was the last wartime issue, but i didn't) my words appeared: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"
So i'm really pushing my Tempest, and while diving the speed builds up like crazy: 750, 800 Km/h...I'm now flying just above the water and i'm closing in at about 400 m behind the german. I say to myself it looks pretty good, i have the sun behind me, the FW is in the shade... I reach out to adjust my gunsight and unlock my four 20 mm cannon, then i look up... the german is not there any more! Good God, where is he?! I can't believe this, this old fox let me come close behind him, rocking his wings gently to send me to sleep and, right at the moment when i leaned over the gunsight, he sprung out vertically like a rocket! I did't really have a choice, i went up after him, pulling hard on the stick, crushed against the seat and with my head whirling, trying not to let him out of my sight. I could see the tail of that plane climbing and climbing, but suddenly i felt my Tempest shaking and buffeting. I am completely bewildered... i'll probably spin, and the spin, which is forbidden for the Tempest under 3000 m, will surely make me crash into the ground... So i panicked, breaking the seal and pushing the throttle to emergency power. Then i did a completely stupid maneuver, trying to regain control of my plane but succeeding to build up some speed though. But againg the FW disappeared! Where is he?
Bang!
The first projectile bounces off the cowling. Bang! Another one. I feel the shock. The engine suddenly stops, and so does my heart... the propeller hangs like a cross in front of me and black smoke comes out of the exhaust pipes. You can't imagine what it feels like. The whole universe crumbles in a split second! You feel like everything inside you drains off, you no longer have a heart, stomach, brain, saliva... Just a terrible fear that replaces everything else.
It was, as usual with fighter planes, a matter of centimeters: the first projectile bounced off the armor plate of the fuel tank, filled with 1000 liters of fuel... I tried to glide, well, as good as at Tempest could glide! I realised with horror that i was too low to bail out; what was i supposed to do? I completely panicked. I opened the canopy, but it jamed, i pulled the jettison handle but it wasn't working, when, completely astounded, i see flying close, very close to me, maybe less than 20 m away, the fuselage of the D9, painted brown with green spots and wearing the red and yellow bands of JG301. A fabulous machine... He didn't want to get ahead of me and closed his throttle, probably worrying i'll try to play some tricks on him before going down. I even have the time to admire him in detail! And he has more than enough time to finish me off. He doesn't... there's no point in doing it. Was he trying to teach me a lesson? He goes around me in a half-roll, i saw -i can still see- the face of the pilot looking at me, but suddenly the ground is right in front of me!
I crash-landed. 100 meters of sliding in a thick mud - a coal quarry. That saved me, absorbing the shock in a cloud of black mud. I rushed out of the smoking plane, ignoring 2 things. The parachute harness somehow got tangled into the seat, and that stoped me for a moment. I set it free, forgetting that the mask was coupled to the oxygen bottles with a flexible tube and a fitting. The tube extended, only to come off a moment later and the fitting hit me hard in the face. Seeing black before my eyes from the hit, i jumped on the mud covered wing, slid and fell on my butt in the mud. Then i heard the specific sound of a german engine. As beautiful as their planes looked, their engines always sounded like a wreck. I can still see the black propeller hub coming towards me, with the white rotating spiral... Is he going to shoot? No, he rocks his wings gently and pulls up. I continued to lie there, dumbfounded and scared, until two americans, too stupid to recognize an allied plane, stuck their machinegun barrels under my nose...
An US Stinson brought me back to my base. I was saved! All this time, the other squadmates thought the german was the one shot down and they were congratulating me on the radio. I explained them later! That evening, at the officer's mess, all my pilots ironically applauded when i walked into the room. A bilboard, which seemed much too big, was hanging from the ceiling: "Leave it to me, it's a piece of cake!"
The check that night cost me the pay for a whole month."""""""""""""
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Originally posted by Viking
I can't agree with that. As long as you keep the fight at or below 20k feet the Dora is superior to the Pony in all regimes of flight. The Dora even out-turns the Pony using flaps (just barely).
Well in my experience I have found it very difficult to gain any particular advantage in a fight with an experienced Pony pilot.
I've flown against squadies that I'm quite evenly matched with and whilst I can gain the advantage relatively easily in a 109 the Dora just presents no real chances. The fights always end in a stalemate.
While I do not fly the Dora all that much these days I used to quite a bit and I seem to think that it should turn a little bit better than it does.
It's so very sensitive on the stall it seems slightly handicapped.
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Originally posted by Viking
Actually the plane I feel most comfortable in against a Pony is the 109K. It's a bonafide Pony-killer. The Pony can escape by diving, but that's all.
The Pony has no response to a well flown K4 or even a G-14 if the fight is maintained.
It can't often out-run the K4, can't out-turn it, can't out-climb it....
If it dives you can catch up you just need to be careful with the elevators.
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Thanks for posting that story Ghi
Pipz
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excellent story ghi thanks!
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Originally posted by Xasthur
The Pony has no response to a well flown K4 or even a G-14 if the fight is maintained.
It can't often out-run the K4, can't out-turn it, can't out-climb it....
If it dives you can catch up you just need to be careful with the elevators.
I made a video from the Der Grosse Schlag scenario of me in a K-4 vs two P51D's. Was the first time I ever flew the thing and ended up with 4 kills and no deaths.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/117694.html
However that's the last time I've been able to kill anything in a K-4 except the ground. I guess it was beginner's luck. :D
btw cool story GHI.
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That Dora pilot was Rudi Wurff of JG 301.
-C+
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Great story GHi
Thanks:aok
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Quote from Shaw's book on fighter tactics, taken from a post on this BB many years ago since I don't have the book in front of me right now:
"A plane was approaching and because of its long nose I thought it was a Mustang. Turning into it I received a shock, it was neither a Mustang nor an ME-109, but a new Focke-Wulf, its long nose was the latest improvement of the famed FW. These planes with the longer noses were rumored to have more horsepower than their predecessors, and were capable of giving Mustang a rough time. We met practically head-on and both of us banked our planes in preparation for a dogfight.
Around and around we went. Sometimes the FW got in close, and other times, when I'd drop my flap to tighten my turn, I was in a position to fire, but the German, sensing my superior position, kept swinging down in his turn, and gaining airspeed and quickly pulling up, and with the advantage in height he would then pour down on my tail. Time was in his favor, he could fight that way for an hour and still have enough fuel to land anywhere below him. I still had 400 miles of enemy territory to fly over before I could land. Something had to be done. Throwing caution to the wind I lifted a flap, dove and pulled up in a steep turn, at the same time dropping a little flap. The G was terrific, but it worked, and I had the Jerry nailed for sure. Pressing the tit I waited, but nothing happened, not a damned thing. My guns weren't firing.
By taking this last gamble I had lost altitude but had been able to bring my guns to bear while flying below the FW. With his advantage of height he came down, pulled up sharp, and was smack-dab on my tail again. The 20 mm. cannons belched and I could see what looked like golf balls streaming by me. A little less deflection and those seemingly harmless golf balls would have exploded instantly upon contact with my plane. "Never turn your back on an enemy" was a byword with us, but I had no choice. Turning the plane over on its back I yanked the stick to my but. My throttle was wide open and I left it there as I dove. The needle stopped at 600 miles per -- that was as far as it could go on the dial. Pulling out I expected at any minute to have the wings rip off, the plane was bucking so much. The last part of the pull-up brought me up into clouds. I was thankful to have evaded the long-nosed FW, for that pilot was undoubtedly the best that I had ever met."
-John Godfrey, Mustang ace
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Nice stories Ghi and Tuxc. Thanks for sharing. :)
"Time was in his favor, he could fight that way for an hour and still have enough fuel to land anywhere below him."
Lol, yeah I wish that was true in this game. :lol
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There are many sources that claim the 190D was the best turning, best handling of all the previous versions (including the early A models), but in-game it always seems under-modeled compared to what I've read in many places.
In FSO with historic late ware LW vs US setups, the 190D is the worst fighter in the setup, dogmeat to all allied planes except the grossly overweight P-47, and it's only just barely able to deal with the P-47 on even terms. This has been shown in several cases in squadron-sized combat. The dora (in this game) is just a POS.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy flying it at times, and have landed many a kill in it in the MA and all that, but it's definitely not stacking up to the historic counter-part.
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Ghi and TUXC, thanks for the stories.
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Any aircraft in competent hands is a monster. It's always the man, not the machine that makes the battle.
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That's a vary narrow mindset and every time folks use it I just shake my head.
Put one person in a Ju87 and another in a spixteen, and it's the machine. Sure the "person" (by this I mean "skill") plays a role, but there's a very obvious impact by choosing a better plane vs an inferior plane. It is just as much the plane as it is the pilot, and definitely NOT all reliant on the pilot.
The plane itself can multiply the effectiveness of the pilot's skill, regardless of the quantity of said skill. If you've got a skill level a mere fraction of normal, but you fly a plane with a high "multiplier" it allows you to kill "normal skill" players. It's all relative but I'm trying to put it in easy-to-understand words. Any 2-week newbie can jump into a spixteen and get kills on the average vets that have been playing a year or more. Doesn't mean they were better, just that the plane made up for their shortcomings and allowed them to do what other planes wouldn't have allowed them to do.
Given the stories posted above, it seems like the Tempest pilot was totally inept and the Dora pilot was an ace, and these were clearly superior pilots.
However, there are still many reports on the handling and performance of the 190D and the one modeled in game falls short of these more often than not, it seems.
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Originally posted by Viking
According to Gonzo's fighter comparison tables it does. 633 feet radius for the Pony with flaps, and 627 feet for the Dora.
I can get the P-51D turn radius down to 594 feet, and I've tested it repeatedly.
That aside, the problem for the Dora is that it cannot begin to deploy flaps until it is down to around 175 mph, and full flaps much slower than that. Meanwhile, the P-51s can get maneuver flaps out at 400 mph. The dilemma for a low and slow Dora is surviving long enough to utilize flaps.
In practice, flap use in any 190 is best limited to maneuvering in the vertical (going up), as they will blow up quickly once the aircraft begins to accelerate. I enjoy the 190s, but they require more discipline than most fighters.
My regards,
Widewing
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I sent Gonzo a PM a year ago asking him if the FW190 data was "new" (after the big airflow recoding, which totally changed how 190s fly) or what. He got back to me this month (he even laughed at the fact it'd been a year!) and said the data is old and hasn't been updated in a long time.
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That would explain it ...
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Originally posted by Viking
That would explain it ...
I just tested the 190D-9 with 25% gas... 704.6 foot radius with full flaps. Not encouraging....
My regards,
Widewing
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And here I thought I was just posting about a new build 190D9 that looked kinda nice :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
I just tested the 190D-9 with 25% gas... 704.6 foot radius with full flaps. Not encouraging....
My regards,
Widewing
I'd like to see the full battery of tests compared to the pony WW if it isn't too much. I will say right off I have mucho respect for you for taking the time to do those tests, I know I would have the patience, skill, or knowledge to even bother.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
And here I thought I was just posting about a new build 190D9 that looked kinda nice :)
you did ;) :aok and I still WANT BAD! :D
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Thanks for that info Widewing. Seems like if you're using Dora flaps for anything other than at the top of vertical maneuvers you're dead meat.
Since this was originally a thread about 190Ds today, does anyone know if the restored Fw190D-13 has a working engine?
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/yellow10fw_1.htm