Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: B@tfinkV on December 13, 2007, 11:24:09 AM
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the mosquito has a fighter mode, wuld it be possible to have the same option for the A20?
i know at least one of my squadmates that would definitely enjoy the option.
S!
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Hehe, at leasy I dont have to lug the ords off the runway:)...
I dont know that it truely belongs as a "fighter" but its got roughly the same air to air capability as the Mossie and the 110 do. I'm probably at about a 2/1 K/D ratio. If you could weed out the structural failures, ack/osti/Jabo deaths and intentional bails to go where the action is I'd say I'm probably around 3/1 in the thing over the last 6 months. I'd just love to get the perkies in the fighter catagory. I am curious in that the A-20 is the only multi engine "bomber" I'm aware of without an actual bomb site. I'd think that the glass nosed Boston would be a bomber while the solid nosed A-20 should fall under "attack/fighter" with the same thing for the strafer...which doesnt even have a "formation" option if I'm correct. I'd suggest the formation option be removed from the A-20 as well.
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You keep saying that Humble.. If there's a line to draw between bombers and fighters, the A20 is definitely bomber-side. It can't compete with the 110 and mossie in dogfights.
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I'm simply going based on my own experience in the A-20 over the last 6 to 8 months. I've flown all 3 and the reality is that neither the 110 or Mossie ever held my attention the way the A-20 is. I've spent a fair amount of time in a variety of planes and been recognized as "good" in more then a few of them. The more time I spend in the A-20 the more subtleties I discover. While there is no question that the gun packages on the 110 and mossie are vastly superior the planes themselfs arent.
I fly the A-20 vs everything as a fighter and the 110 and mossie are only a threat with an advantage IMO (and they are for everyone). The vast majority of the mossie/110 drivers I see normally do well when they control the initial engagement but otherwise go down quickly if they cant get out of dodge.
I usually dont fly very high and often engage spits, hurricanes, nikki's etc with neg E/neg alt with some measure of success. While I certainly get stomped on in a true 1 on 1 on numerous occasions its much more common for me to end up at the bottom of a 1 on 3,4,5 or more at the end.
As far as I'm concerned I'm still the limiting factor with the A-20 in a fight. It's capable of beating anything in the game in a 1on 1 regardless of pilot IMO. I just cant quite get everything out of it yet.
I'm working learning to kill 109K's, Spit 8/16's and Tiffies...the 110 and Mossie's I've run into simply havent proved to be threats (I've never lost to one yet in a 1 on 1). I've flown the 110 and Mossie in the last 30 days and continue to fiddle with them....so far I can find an awful lot the A-20 can do they cant. At this point besides the gun package the only thing a Mossie or 110 can do is go faster.
So the bottom line is simple, I'll kill an A-20 in a mossie or 110 (but then I'll kill an A-20 in anything)...but I'll kill a 110 or mossie in an A-20 even easier (so far).
I'm sure WW and Cobia are better A-20 drivers then I am, you might easily kill me in a mossie (or I might get you) the 1st time. But over time I think the a-20 can easily adapt to the mossie (or 110) in a fight. Now the mossie and 110 can both B&Z the A-20 and kill it...
And in reality the only way to consistantly kill an A-20 is to not give it a chance. Once you decide to "dogfight" an A-20 your playing to its strength regardless of what plane your in IMO.
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The Mosquito FB.Mk VI was flown by RAF Fighter Command, not Bomber Command. It was used as a fighter at times as well.
The A-20G was not.
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Even though you use it that way in this game, it was never sortied as a fighter. It was never upped in group/squadron strength with the intention of engaging and killing the enemy fighters over a given area.
It's not a fighter.
Ground pounder, through and through! It's performance and handling are secondary to its role. Look at the IL2 in this game, you can still get plenty of fighter kills while dogfighting with it, but you're flying a bomber (edit: bomber/attacker) and nobody would dispute that.
P.S. All the quirks and tricks you're learning may go bye-bye whenever the model is upgraded to "Gen 3" like the new planes. It's one of the oldest flight models, and possibly one of the buggiest/most-inaccurate in the game. If/when they ever "update" (fix?) it, it may handle more like the B-25 :D
Ya never know :p
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" It's capable of beating anything in the game in a 1on 1 regardless of pilot"
No... The only planes I'd have trouble in vs. an A20 are planes with huge handicaps, such as the 190A8. Any of the 109s are either nimble enough to flat out out maneuver it or spunky enough to just leave the A20 in the dust.
The 190D9 is probably the closest match that I'd wager would lose to the A20 in a stall fight. But that's a 190D9 we're talking about, definitely one of the least advantageous planes to stall fight in.
The 152 would lose only because it's porked, and the A5 would be a close match but only because of its anemic gun package. With equal pilots the A5 will come out on top eventualy, at least 7-8 times out of 10.
Then we'd try the 110 - C out handles, G out handles and turns the A20 to confetti on the smallest of first snapshots, which it can negotiate very easily. And the mossie is the same. One snapshot and a half, at most, and the A20 is wrecked.
C202, 205, both out maneuver and kill the A20 easily.. Zeke, N1K, Ki84, Ki61, P51s, P47s, Spitfires, Tempest, P38s and F4Us, F4F and FM2, Hurricanes, La's and Yaks all out maneuver the A20 with equal pilots.
The only doubts I have are the typhoon and 262. I never fly the typhoon and I haven't given the 262 a try at stall fighting since it gained half a ton a year or more ago.
The A20 might be a stable and rugged package that's pretty fast and nimble for its mass, but it is nowhere else than at the bottom of the dogfighting food chain.. It's a big armored turtle that floats nicely and can bite pretty hard, but no one is stupid enough to wait sitting-duck in front of its beak. Like a turtle, all you need to do is walk around and turn it over, then stick a fork in it.
The only chance the A20 would have is a lag-free gunner in the back turret. Point blank at low relative velocities would really change the picture.
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I dont have any "quirks & tricks" in the A-20. Thats whats so much fun, it's all BFM. None of the Neg G pop up stuff like the IL-2 has. IRL the A-20 was very appreciated for its ability to be "yanked around" like a fighter and it did engage enemy fighters on a somewhat regular basis by neccessity (with some success). It's real life handling was far superior to the B-25. The A-20G we have was designed and intended to be a ground attack aircraft...esentially the same role the Skyraider had later. While I agree that its not a fighter it sure wasnt a bomber.
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It was less of a fighter than it was a bomber.
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Moot its not worth even commenting on.
I run into good sticks in every plane you mentioned every tour. And while I certainly get hosed I also win more then a few. In fact if I'm up in an A-20 I seem to draw a crowd in it. And no question you can stalk and kill an A-20 relatively easily if left to do it in piece. But its suprisingly capable in a fight.
I ran into a very well regarded stick routinely mentioned in various "best of" threads who engaged me with alt, E and numbers yesterday and died thinking just what you do (he knew it was me)...
Your comments are all based on what you "Think" the A-20 can do...not what it does. Like I said I fight good sticks every day and never once have had to say "you only beat me because I was in an A-20". I dont view it as any different then any plane you mentioned...
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Wrong... On paper and in practice.
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it doesnt matter....
what i do know is that i have seen humble fighting people like SHawk. humble being A20 Shawk in F4u-C and with alt advantage.
humble kept him busy for 15 mins, i was the gunner. we died in the end because a couple more enemy came and taxed his SA to the limit and shawk (with smoking engine) finished us off.
now i dont think ive seen many people flying la7s that effectively vs someone as good as Shawk.
anyhow, this is a simple request so lets keep the thread simple?
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Originally posted by moot
No... The only planes I'd have trouble in vs. an A20 are planes with huge handicaps, such as the 190A8.
Well, you are probably correct in your assesment of the A8 vs the A20. I lost in an A8 against Drediok in an A20 a week or so ago.
I started by maintaining E, extending, reversing and going for the deflection shot on his break but the A20 is pretty nimble in comparison to the A8 and I wasn't able to connect.
Once the fight got slowed down I was barely able to extend for a reverse and when I finally decided to disengage I was barely able to stay out ahead of him.
He finally clipped my left wing from 800 back and i died trying to land once I got it home.
While I can't recall losing to an A20 in more capable planes, I have had a few give me a good fight, one of them while I was in a Spit. I'm surprised at how capable they are. [EDIT] Moreso than the Mossie and definately moreso than a 110 in the right hands.
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Originally posted by moot
Wrong... On paper and in practice.
According to someone with just about zero time in one...
The fact that you dont feel capable of engaging fighters in the A-20 doesnt mean that it cant. For the most part the guys who beat me in the A-20 are the same guys capable of beating mt in most other rides as well. I rarely lose a fight "because" I happen to be in an A-20.
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For comparrison:
General characteristics A-20
Crew: 2-3
Length: 47 ft 6 in (14.5 m)
Wingspan: 61 ft 4 in (18.7 m)
Height: 17 ft 7 in (5.4 m)
Wing area: 465 ft² (43.2 m²)
Empty weight: 15,051 lb (6,827 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 20,320 lb (9,215 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Wright R-2600-A5B "Double Cyclone" radial engines, 1,600 hp (1,200 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 338 mph (294 knots, 544 km/h) at 12,500 ft (3,800 m)
Range: 1,050 mi (912 nm, 1,690 km)
Service ceiling: 27,600 ft (8,400 m)
Rate of climb: 2,000 ft/min (10.2 m/s)
General characteristics - de Havilland Mosquito
Crew: 2: pilot, bombardier/navigator
Length: 44 ft 6 in (13.57 m)
Wingspan: 54 ft 2 in (16.52 m)
Height: 17 ft 5 in (5.3 m)
Wing area: 454 ft² (42.18 m²)
Empty weight: 14,300 lb (6,490 kg)
Loaded weight: 18,100 lb (8,210 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 25,000 lb (11,000 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Rolls-Royce Merlin 76/77 (left/right) liquid-cooled V12 engine, 1,710 hp (1,280 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 361 knots (415 mph, 668 km/h) at 28,000 ft (8,500 m)
Range: 1,300 nm (1,500 mi, 2,400 km) with full weapons load
Service ceiling: 37,000 ft (11,000 m)
Rate of climb: 2,850 ft/min (14.5 m/s)
Wing loading: 39.9 lb/ft² (195 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.189 hp/lb (311 W/kg)
The Mosquito and the A-20 are largely comparable. True Statement?
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The flight model is actually pretty average. It's really a "P-38 light" without the benifit of true combat flaps. Like a 38 if you fly it in a linear manner its junk. The A-20 requires a reasonable understanding of E management and relative lift vectors. It doesnt out turn the mossie or the 110 or most of the planes in the game but it will out fly many of them under certain circumstances.
Whats important to the A-20 in a fight is much more subtle then for most planes and within that frame work what plane your fighting is less relevent. In fact I've found that the biggest problem with the A-20 is either the pilot who truely flies "Stupid" in a superior plane or the savvy stick who flys a "contrarian" style.
I recently had some great fights with both SkatSr and Dedalos. Both were in different planes (and under diferent circumstances) yet both settled in on essentially the same tactic. Now both were in planes that I have a high success rate with in the A-20 (probably 5/1 or better in 1 on 1's). I tried to get both into the "profile" I wanted and both "bailed out" of that fight into one I couldnt handle.
I simply view this as a couple of very good pilots intuitively rejecting a fight that "felt wrong". It also altered my overall view on certain cause and effect in general and I'm toying with how to counter that fight in the future. The pilot is always going to be a big part of the equation. The A-20 doesnt really diminish my options vs most other rides. It's not an ENY 5 bird but its every bit as capable as any of the higher ENY fighters....which all have strengths and weaknesses. In the end the A-20 has two engines, 6 center mounted .50's, goes 400 MPH, absorbs alot of damage and handles reasonably well....works for me:aok
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Yeager to me the A-20 is very similiar but flies "smoother" then the Mossie or 110. I always go back to WW's comment on "smooth" being fast. The A-20 is on rails thru alot of manuevers that would spin either the mossie or 110 out IMO. I think that smoothness is what catches people by suprise and creates problems for them. The A-20 can carry alot of E thru a set of BFM compared to most planes or ride the edge of a stall were the 38, mossie or 110 would start to scrub E as it stalls out...
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Originally posted by moot
It was less of a fighter than it was a bomber.
Correct...the only variants of the Havoc that were considered "fighters" were the P-70 and P-70A (night fighters). Both saw service with the USAAC in in the PTO only and their service time was brief. Both were equipped with the British AI Mk IV and the P-70 was equipped with 4 20mm (60 rounds each) in the nose. The P-70A had machine guns mounted in the nose.
Contrary to what some may believe, the A-20 was primarily used as a bomber that was capable of both high and low altitude bombing missions. Yes, it could defend itself if needed like the A-26 but it still doesn't change the fact that it was first and foremost a bomber and was used almost exclusively in that role (with the exception of some specialized variants like the above mentiond P-70 series).
As others have stated, in AH, given that the experience of the pilots are equal, the one in the single engine fighter will prevail over the A-20.
ack-ack
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Batfink, I don't know what was wrong with SHawk that day... If he had altitude on an A20 in a chog and couldn't put it down in a few passes, there was something up with SHawk.
Originally posted by humble
According to someone with just about zero time in one...
Wrong.. I did the A20 thing when it came out. Because it was fun and to get an idea of what I was up against. I know what the A20 can and can't do.
You can argue the small bright side of the moon all you want, the fact remains that it's a minor crescent vs. the odds stacked overwhelmingly against the A20. If it can "under certain circumstances" beat most other planes, than most other planes can beat it "under certain circumstances", but even more so.
"P-38 light".. where do you stop the hyperbole Humble? The only thing lighter about it vs. the P38 is that it feels tons heavier and can't even get into high AoA's like the 38, 110 and mossie can to begin with. That's a pretty distorted use of "lighter".
The mossie and 110 both (never mind the P38) can be as smooth as the A20 provided their pilot inputs smoothly.
The A20 and mossie are "largely comparable", in favor of the mossie. You can argue that the A20 is fun, there's nothing wrong with that. I fly the 25H into furballs any chance I get. But I don't go on and on about it being superior to most planes because it can "under the right circumstances" shoot them down.
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Your simply clueless....the A-20 easy outhandles the 110 and Mossie {and 38}at high AoA. It doesnt have the power in the vertical or the sustained climb rate but its exceptionally stable at high AoA. Very few planes can hang in a climbing scissor fight with the A-20....certainly not a Mossie or 110. The 110, mossie and 38 are all known for spin related control issues, a sign of problems at high AoA...the A-20 can be spun and recovered at will almost to the 1/8 of a revolution. The sign of a plane with no true AoA issues. It's about as docile as a piper cub.
Now that being said I've never once claimed the A-20 is superior to any fighter (and I'll include the mossie and 110 in that). It simply doesnt have the structural capability or top speed potential of any fighter. I've stated it can be flown competatively and with a measure of success. So either I'm some uber pilot (which I'm certainly not) or your totally misguided (my vote) in your understanding of the planes capabilities. To me the A-20 isnt any harder to fly in the MA then the P-40, 109E, P47-D11, Ki-61 or a host of other rides. Then again you dont fly those either do you?
Lot of 262, la-7, D9, Tempest, C-hog etc....
Anytime you want to "argue" with me about the relative merits of a plane you actually fly let me know...
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Total bs.
And like I said I've flown the A20 plenty. You looking up my stats for these last tours as base for your arguments is like Titanic shrugging off the tip of the iceberg as nothing to worry about.
If that's what it takes to get those wooden glasses off your eyes, bring your A20 anytime. I'll take either a mossie or 110 and turn it to scrap metal in under 3 revolutions.. Nevermind a P38.
"The A20 easily outhandles the 110, mossie and 38 at high AoA". Wow. :lol
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Originally posted by humble
The 110, mossie and 38 are all known for spin related control issues, a sign of problems at high AoA...
That's a new one on me, only times I've entered into a spin is if I've 1)lost an engine while turning 2)flaps auto-retracted in a turn fight while not paying attention in the P-38 and I've probably got the most hours in that plane than anyone in this game.
ack-ack
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No question that an accomplished 38 driver is not going to have the spin issues that a lesser pilot will. Same for a mossie or 110...however most pilots have issues with departure on all 3 planes. That instability can often be an asset in a fight. Most good 38 furballers can stall a wing at will, however keeping the plane on the edge requires more control input then the A-20 does.
This is being blown way way out of proportion. The A-20 is a fun and suprisingly adaptable bird that can be flown with a suprising amount of success as a "fighter"...nothing more nothing less. No other plane has ever held my interest for more then a month or two. I've flown the A-20 for at least 6 months and feel like I'm still scratching the surface with it.
Obviously its got serious limitations vs any true fighter...however I'm 95-38 this month so far and my K/D over the 6 months is probably 1.5/1 or better. shed out the structural failures and its 2/1. Overall in true 1 on 1's i'm probabably well over 5/1. The vast majority being to accomplished sticks who are my match in most match ups. While I'll get stomped on every so often most of the time the A-20 puts up a good fight before it goes down.
I'm simply amazed at the absoluteness of the comments from folks who dont fly it.
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Originally posted by moot
Total bs.
And like I said I've flown the A20 plenty. You looking up my stats for these last tours as base for your arguments is like Titanic shrugging off the tip of the iceberg as nothing to worry about.
If that's what it takes to get those wooden glasses off your eyes, bring your A20 anytime. I'll take either a mossie or 110 and turn it to scrap metal in under 3 revolutions.. Nevermind a P38.
"The A20 easily outhandles the 110, mossie and 38 at high AoA". Wow. :lol
I looked up those stats because they are current, nothing more or less.
Good lord I could care less about you or what you fly or what your opinion of yourself is. From looking at your stats I'd say your nothing but a horde monkey. That may or may not be right but I really dont care much one way or the other.
I fly the A-20 about 80% of the time right now, i'm sure you can find me pretty easily. i'll just look for the 20k mossie in the horde:aok
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Originally posted by humble
I'm simply amazed at the absoluteness of the comments from folks who dont fly it.
No offense but most of us here have been playing this game a lot longer than you have. If you took the time to check, you'll see other than the P-38, the other plane I've flown the most has been the A-20G. And I'm sure that if you look at moot's stats, you'll see that he too has a lot of stick time in the A-20G. Waffle and I used to up A-20Gs and go on Dweeb Hunts all night long, good times those nights, especially when we used to make FTDEEP and CHI whine.
ack-ack
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Hmmm....
Dont ever recall saying that I've been here longer or fly any better then anyone in particular or that I'm the "best" A-20 driver around. Moots got nothing in 2007 before august and no appreciable numbers in the A-20 since then. You've got 5 kills in the thing this year from what I saw and a less then 1/1 ratio.
No disrespect but I think both of you are a bit full of yourself's:)
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Originally posted by humble
I looked up those stats because they are current, nothing more or less.
Good lord I could care less about you or what you fly or what your opinion of yourself is. From looking at your stats I'd say your nothing but a horde monkey. That may or may not be right but I really dont care much one way or the other.
I fly the A-20 about 80% of the time right now, i'm sure you can find me pretty easily. i'll just look for the 20k mossie in the horde:aok
To see the stats AKAK's talking about you'd have to find the handles I've used over the years, and as far as I know, only wildduck and 2bighorn have had as many.. But that's irrelevent because those stats or the ones you looked up aren't representative of what I know or can do. Stats aren't representative of those things for anyone.
This argument (A20 vs. everything you claim it to be) was never about me, what I fly, or my opinion of myself - it's you that's bringing it up out of the blue.
I don't fly in the hordes. That you don't care about said things doesn't matter and has nothing to do with this argument.
AKAK and I aren't full of ourselves, anymore than you are (A20 claims aside).. what I'm on about are your posts about the A20.
The posts you've made about the A20 don't stand up to facts - they are wrong.
My posts aren't about me or my flying but about the facts in your posts being wrong - you've been saying (and now are borderline backpedaling) that the A20 will out do the 110, mossie, 38, and other things that just don't hold up at all, such as that the A20 is a P38-lite.
Like I said, I've flown the A20, so what I'm saying isn't baseless. The A20 is dogmeat for the mossie and 110, even moreso for the P38, equal pilots, pilots being anything between average and seasoned vets.
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1st,
I have/had no intention of making this a pissing match and to the degree i've contributed to that I apologize to both of you.
2nd,
I'm a good but not stellar pilot. Nothin I do in the A-20 (or anything else goes beyond reasonably competent BFM/ACM).
3rd,
I've probably got more current stick time then anyone in the A-20. To the best of my knowledge I havent back peddled on anything regarding the A-20 but I might appear to in trying to clarify a particular statement.
4th,
I've got more actual stuff on film (good and bad) then most so its easy to look at how I fly it.
5th,
I'm still learning the plane (which is rare since after 30 days in anything I'm refining not learning).
To the best of my knowledge I'm the only guy other then cobia flying the A-20 regularly as a primary ride. Normally at mid or low alt and usually vs superior numbers...that doesnt mean I'm the best A-20 driver just that I fly it often under varying conditions.
In 6 months I've never lost anything near a fair fight vs a 110 or mossie in an A-20. That doesnt mean I cant or that I've run into the best mossie or 110 drivers. What it does mean is that a reasonably competent pilot can fly the A-20 at "normal" MA alts under normal conditions and achieve a level of success roughly equal to any 'mid range" fighter.
I've been here since beta so i'm reasonably well known. I'll occasionally sneak on a "best of" list as an honorable mention but i'm far from a dominant pilot here. So in know way do I qualify as "uber" yet I'm consistantly raising the bar on the A-20 and I'm to old a dog to learn new tricks. I'm 95-38 so far flying the A-20 as a "fighter" this tour. I think I can push the thing to 5/1 or even higher without resorting to "horde" flying or strictly cherrying.
I simply disagree with your assessment of the A-20. BTW i'm quite comfortable fighting any 38 drivber in it 1 on 1 as well. Doesnt mean I'll win but that wont be the A-20's fault. I have yet to lose a fight in the A-20 where I feel that it was the planes fault...but then I feel the same way in a P-40 to. The pilot dominates the fight....not the plane IMO. The A-20 has a suprisingly large range in which it is quite capable, i'm still learning to apply it better....
Now that doesnt mean I wont still get beat, but I'll continue to give the other pilot credit....not blame it on the A-20. Now this is not a comment specific to a duel where plane type can win much more easily under a more controlled situation. But if I meet a plane in the MA at 10k in an A-20 i'm still concerned with the other guy, not the other plane, regardless of what I'm flying.
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Originally posted by moot
Batfink, I don't know what was wrong with SHawk that day... If he had altitude on an A20 in a chog and couldn't put it down in a few passes, there was something up with SHawk.
'passes' wasnt an option, humble denied anychance of making a shot the entire fight. perhaps the F4u-c wasnt on top of his game, who can say. humble flew in a manner that baited shawk to go for a shot and then got out he way and reversed him before having to reset and avoid being roped, each time starting a different method to oufly the attackers guns completely and repeatedly.
i saw this with my own eyes, we both know shawk is a deadly shot with any guns let alone 4x20mm so it is obvious that humble was doing something right to last so long.
in the end shawk won his shot that he needed, and instantly sent us to the tower. humble simply flew the A20 that fight as well as anyone possibly could, and still lost, so you are right the 'better plane' came out on top like it should have starting with altitude....but boy did he have to work for it.
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Originally posted by humble
Hmmm....
Dont ever recall saying that I've been here longer or fly any better then anyone in particular or that I'm the "best" A-20 driver around.
Never said you claimed such. I just pointed out when you're trying to imply that neither moot nor I have as much stick time as you in the Havoc. I was merely pointing out that we've been playing this game a lot longer than you have and have flown the A-20 just as much as you. Call it a case of "been there, done that and have the T-shirt."
Moots got nothing in 2007 before august and no appreciable numbers in the A-20 since then. You've got 5 kills in the thing this year from what I saw and a less then 1/1 ratio.[/b]
Do yourself a favor and look up from the day the A-20G was introduced into this game until now. You'll see that other than the P-38, most of my stick time as been in the A-20G. Though, this last year I haven't really been flying it that much, pretty much only take it out now to hunt GVs that are attacking my base and rarely use it to dogfight anymore.
No disrespect but I think both of you are a bit full of yourself's:)
None taken but I do hope you realize that the only one that is full of themselves is you. Moot and I are going by our experiences with flying and fighting the A-20G and no offense, but our experience both individually and combined is far more vast than your little more than year experience in AH.
ack-ack
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Excuse me, I've been flying AH since Beta and online since AW on Genie and was part of the original training cadre here. While I'm far from the best stick in the game I'm not exactly cannon fodder either.
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umm ack-ack ...
you signed up on the forum in 2002, when did humble sign up?
please though guys, lets get along now. how would it hurt you to let someone score in fighter mode? it was just a request and you both are coming off as 'leet' trying to put humble down.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
umm ack-ack ...
you signed up on the forum in 2002, when did humble sign up?
Incorrect. This is my 2nd forum handle, the first one was created in '99 when a former squadron mate (Moray) told me about AH beta. Had to create this one when I lost the login information to my previous forum handle. Anything else?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
please though guys, lets get along now. how would it hurt you to let someone score in fighter mode? it was just a request and you both are coming off as 'leet' trying to put humble down.
Please read our posts, nowhere do m00t or I mention not allowing players to score A-20 flights in fighter mode. Although, now that you do mention it, it is kind of silly since it wasn't a fighter nor designed as such. If you do allow it, then you'll have to do it to the D3A, Ju87, TBM, IL2, etc...
ack-ack
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I'm not looking to put down anyone here, except false (very false) arguments. They happen to be posted by Humble, so that's who my refutals are written to.
From the start I've just said that the A20 in AH just doesn't live up to the A20 as portrayed by Humble. I've never gone after Humble himself except when he tries to bias the argument towards his large experience with the plane, or when he tries to say I've none myself as a means to discredit my arguments. I refuted that as bogus because it is. Is that what you're denouncing as elite Batfink? Come on! :) You could argue I'm spoiling your thread about scoring the A20 as fighter, but it's not a fighter. No risk there... Like AKAK says too, the A20 isn't a fighter. What if the A26 showed up? That's not a fighter either.
The P61 could probably get a fighter categorization, and so could the F7F. Pretty different from the A20.
About SHawk, I would have to see it to really believe it. A slow and big target like the A20 is a piece of cake to track guns onto, especialy when those are M2 20mm cannons on a platform like the F4U, piloted by someone like SHawk from higher altitude... Something's up, and by Humble's own admission about his piloting skills, it couldn't just be his doing, nor can it be the A20's extraordinary performance - it has none such.
Humble, maybe you just haven't flown much else than the A20. I've never argued the pilot side of things (i.e. you in the A20 cockpit), only put things in the plane's perspective.
I could look further up the thread, but here's an example:Doesnt mean I'll win but that wont be the A-20's fault.
It will be. The A20 is no fighter. I'm not going to keep arguing it because you're apparently blind to the fact, purposedly or not.
Yes, it's fun, it's able enough to kill noobs with it or catch average sticks by surprise, but it's still a big flying turtle. Any stick above average flying an average fighter will kill it easily. Nevermind a top tier plane and/or a top stick.
And the whole griefer accusation doesn't work either. I know what it's like to love a plane that just blows junks. The difference is that I don't cry over the roofs how the Ta152 is awesome when it really isn't at all.
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I've never said the A-20 is uber, simply that its suprisingly capable in an "air to air" role. I've never said its a fighter either, its not. What I have said is that it can be flown with a suprising measure of success as a "fighter". Thats not just vs noobs or marginal planes. I've had numerous encounters with very good sticks and won more then a few (and lost more then a few).
You keep making bombastic statements...
Any stick above average flying an average fighter will kill it easily. Nevermind a top tier plane and/or a top stick.
That have no basis in reality. I fly the A-20 in the LWA, usually against superior numbers (although that ebs and flows) at lower altitudes. I have very few GV kills as a rule...
3 M16, 1 M-8, 1PT & 1 PZ. Some of those actually were in either a 110 or mossie sortie when we were trying to take a town down in support of an other squads mission.
For this tour I'm 93-38 so far (which is better then my norm). Since the usuage in the MA is heavily slanted toward late war planes I encounter "top tier" planes every flight. Overall I show..
9-4 La-7
10-3 P-51 (2 from SkatSr & the other from guy from 4th)
7-5 Spit 16
1-0 Spit 8
5-5 Nikki
5-3 spit9
4-2 Typhoon
I've got plenty of A-20 clips up (as well as a few boston clips) so the A-20 "according to humble" is readily viewable for anyone interested. The raw numbers are viewable as well...
I have no doubt that you and AckAck both have some time in the A-20...however none of it shows as reasonably current. Both of you seem to be a bit more score oriented and fly planes that you can exploit as a general rule. I've flown the A-20 as a primary ride for 6 months and done reasonably well with it in the LWA enviornment in the "fighter" role. So yes I'm more qualified to discuss its merits and flaws in that capacity then either of you are at this time.
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Originally posted by humble
I've never said the A-20 is uber, simply that its suprisingly capable in an "air to air" role. I've never said its a fighter either, its not. What I have said is that it can be flown with a suprising measure of success as a "fighter". Thats not just vs noobs or marginal planes. I've had numerous encounters with very good sticks and won more then a few (and lost more then a few).
"Taken by surprise". You keep making bombastic statements...
Any stick above average flying an average fighter will kill it easily. Nevermind a top tier plane and/or a top stick.
That have no basis in reality. I fly the A-20 in the LWA, usually against superior numbers (although that ebs and flows) at lower altitudes. I have very few GV kills as a rule...
We'll just leave it as agreeing to disagree. The A20 as anything but fighter fodder is what's bombastic.[Stats]
Stats don't mean much at all, they can be twisted any which way and thus any suggested trend is lost in statistical noise, e.g. luck, flying in the horde, plainly picking etc
I have no doubt that you and AckAck both have some time in the A-20...however none of it shows as reasonably current.
Has the flight model changed or something?Both of you seem to be a bit more score oriented and fly planes that you can exploit as a general rule.
More BS... That dirt you've got in your eyes is what's making your argument seem credible.I've flown the A-20 as a primary ride for 6 months and done reasonably well with it in the LWA enviornment in the "fighter" role. So yes I'm more qualified to discuss its merits and flaws in that capacity then either of you are at this time.
No, you obviously are doing something wrong with the big picture, to believe the A20 is "P38-lite", flies well enough that any stick above average flying it VS. an average fighter will easily win 1:1s.
the 110 and Mossie's I've run into simply havent proved to be threats (I've never lost to one yet in a 1 on 1
Couldn't happen vs above average, aware and focused pilots. I've dodged bullets and turned the odds in a 2:4 or 2:5 or something, in a mossie, at 10-16k (we were right near the stratus cloud cover) vs P51D,P38,Spitsomething and a few other planes, Kappa saw it, it lasted for maybe 10 minutes non stop. The A20 could never, ever do that sort of thing. Not from what I remember of my trials in its cockpit, not based on what I've seen from it from any players (and you aren't the only good player to ever have flown it).
At this point besides the gun package the only thing a Mossie or 110 can do is go faster
Typical stuff by you that's just plain wrong. You might say exceedingly absolute or bombastic..
That's my last post, this is going nowhere with you.. My impression and gut feeling is that you aren't good enough a stick to have taken planes like the mossie, 110, P38 and others far enough towards the limit of their envelope to realize how far beyond the A20's those envelopes are, resulting in the inaccurate comparisons you make between the A20 and pretty much everything else.
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Mossie and 110 will kill the A-20G for the same reason the F6F will kill the A6M. Sure, the A-20G or A6M can out turn the other fighter in the match, but that is all that it can do. Speed, power, high speed structure and firepower are all on the side of the Mossie, 110 and F6F. Against one flown right, all the A-20G or A6M can hope to do is survive.
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Originally posted by humble
Both of you seem to be a bit more score oriented and fly planes that you can exploit as a general rule.
LOL! Sorry but I fly the P-38J exclusively (okay, I might have some hops in the G and the L) and one can hardly descriped this plane as "exploitable" or that I play for any type of score (unless you think 1533 is a high rank). So please, don't try and go there.
Whether or not you want to face the facts, but moot and I are more than qualified to speak about the merits and demerits of flying the A-20G as a fighter. The problem is that you just don't want to hear what we're saying since it doesn't mesh with your own beliefs.
The simple fact is, the A-20G is not a fighter. If you meet up with a pilot that is of equal skill or greater in a single engine fighter, 9 out of 10 times you'll be dead in the A-20G.
Sure all dogs can run, but would you race a Greyhound against a Chihuauha and expect the Chihuauha to come out the winner?
ack-ack
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Ack Ack I'm not trying to "go anywhere". The 38 is one of the best all around E fighters in the game. As a general rule your known as a high alt 38 driver (correctly or incorrectly). Anytime a 20K+ 38 is encountered the inevitable comment on range is "that must be Ack Ack". Again that may or may not be an accurate statement and Im certainly not trying to throw rocks...other then the mid arena encounter I cant recall that last time I ran into either you or moot. I normally fly the A-20 at about 12k sometimes lower rarely higher....
Neither of you has a reputation as any type of a furballer that I'm aware of (again maybe not really correct). Most of the A-20 clips I post are low level multicon semi furball fights, yet I'm constantly being told the A-20 isnt capable of doing things I do in the MA almost every day by people who dont really fly it at all on a regular basis.
The A-20 is every bit as competative in the MA as the P-40, P47-D11, Ki-61 or similiar planes in my opinion. All of those planes have significant weaknesses that need to be "protected" as much as possible and yes all are vulnerable to a higher performance plane flown as an E fighter.
An A-20 with the advantage is a dangerous plane and an A-20 at a disadvantage isnt automatically dead meat if it has some air under it.
And actually I dont think either you or moot are "more qualified" then I am to talk about flying the A-20.
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While the A20 might be a great plane that has the ability to carry a lot of ord and is very flexible in its ability, it really is nothing more than a maneuverable bomber. It has the ability to fight its way out of a pickle and can be flown with success in the right situation, but in no way is it a fighter. Not even close.
Its roll rate is horrid, it can't dive away without falling apart, is merely an average turner, and frankly is very sluggish in its controls due to its mass. The one area of dogfighting it shines in is the vertical, where its inertia can make it out zoom an opponent. The 110 and Mossie can do almost everything the A20 can do better, plus have much more devastating armament.
Some people over the years have had good fortune in it, such as Cobia, Widewing and a few others, but most of that is probably just due to people underestimating the A20 combined with the quality of the pilots behind the stick in it. Put it in a 1 on 1 vs anything with equal pilots and it's meat except for the aforementioned situations, but even in those it's still going to have a hard time winning.
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Originally posted by humble
Ack Ack I'm not trying to "go anywhere". The 38 is one of the best all around E fighters in the game. As a general rule your known as a high alt 38 driver (correctly or incorrectly). Anytime a 20K+ 38 is encountered the inevitable comment on range is "that must be Ack Ack". Again that may or may not be an accurate statement and Im certainly not trying to throw rocks
Usually those comments come from those that I shoot down on a regular basis. Some have a hard time getting over the fact their uber ride was out flown by a big fat wannabe bomber like the P-38. I'm usually between 10-12k. The only time I venture higher is if I'm after someone or the hord is flying above my regular altitude.
Neither of you has a reputation as any type of a furballer that I'm aware of (again maybe not really correct). [/b]
That would also be incorrect about both moot and myself.
An A-20 with the advantage is a dangerous plane and an A-20 at a disadvantage isnt automatically dead meat if it has some air under it.[/b]
The same could be said for any fighter in the game.
And actually I dont think either you or moot are "more qualified" then I am to talk about flying the A-20. [/B]
With the amount of stick time I've spent in the A-20G since it has been released (and it is quite considerable), I am more than qualified to speak about the merits and demerits of fighting in the Havoc.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mossie and 110 will kill the A-20G for the same reason the F6F will kill the A6M. Sure, the A-20G or A6M can out turn the other fighter in the match, but that is all that it can do. Speed, power, high speed structure and firepower are all on the side of the Mossie, 110 and F6F. Against one flown right, all the A-20G or A6M can hope to do is survive.
No question the mossie and 110 can B&Z the A-20. In fact thats the best way to engage an A-20 in anything. However if the mossie or 110 actually engage the A-20 then its a question of avoiding the FQ or snapshot. The Mossie and 110 arent really any different then the Tiffie, C-hog, la-7 or P-47 in that regard. If the A-20 can get "inside" the con it can prevail...if it doesnt then it will fall to a FQ or snap shot.
There is an ongoing learning curve in not just avoiding the shot but creating a window to counter punch. Invariably the A-20 has to trade alt and/or E or risk taking the fight up in a situation where getting caught "lumbering" will leave it eviserated. Those judgements on relative E state and AoA limits for both planes are part of the ongoing fun for me. The reality is that I keep getting slightly better at doing exactly what you all are saying I cant.
I routinely engage multiple cons in the A-20 and survive multiple passes from multiple planes without even a hit, let alone any damage in a furball. No question that when I run into an elite stick in the A-20 I'm toast most of the time...last one was fester in a 109K. He had alt & E and we went about 90 seconds and he missed 2 or 3 shots. The one he got me on was a wingtip shot. The last one on one I lost before that was Dedalos in a 1A hog and SkatSr in a P-51D...
So I'm going to argue that any of the 3 beat me because I was in an A-20?
They beat me because they're better then I am...not what I was flying. Now I'll still lose to "lesser" sticks in a one on one...again becuase I didnt get everything I can out of what I was in. I think I could have beat all three guys above in the A-20...as easily as in anything else. The solution is in being a better pilot, not in getting a better plane.
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i geuss this one has pretty well been decided.
at first humble only took a little joy in the idea of being able to score his favorite fighter ride as a fighter, not a major request.
it was never about what the A-20 would handle in a fight in DA with equal pilot yadda yadda. while alot of these points are true, none of them helped anyone to enjoy the game more. humble wants to enjoy being one of the only people with the ability to fly the A-20 as a fighter and the compulsion to do so almost every flight even vs the worst odds. why we can't just enjoy other people pride in themsleves or their favorite ride is beyond me.
sometimes the true statistics of the plane are not as important as what you believe about the ones you love..
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Bat,
I could care less about the A-20 being scored as a fighter. Or to be honest about what other folks think about the plane (or my ability to fly it). I'm simply amazed about the absoluteness of the comments on the A-20. No question that it has quantifiable disadvantages vs any true fighter...however it has enough relative strengths that it can be competative in a MA enviornment. At this point its stupid to continue this one any farther...
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"Engage" does not mean "Luftberry".
The Mossie, Bf110G-2 and P-38X, flown competently, will engage and destroy an A-20G and never have to use one sector extensions.
As to the zoom of the A-20G, I view that as a bug. It weighs a little bit more and has much greater drag. Bombers, which the A-20 is, have disproportionate surface area and drag compared to fighters.
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tonight i saw a very well flown mosquito with altitude beaten by a very well flown A-20 in a drawn out fight. suggesting that X-plane will always beat Y-plane is absurd.
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The Mosquito lost, therefor it mustn't have been that well flown.
Sorry, but the difference in speed, climb and firepower means the Mosquito will win the gross majority of fights between equal pilots. It only gets more lopsided if the Mosquito has the altitude.
EDIT:
All this thread makes me think is that the modeling of the A-20G is overly optimistic.
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The Mossie was roughly 200 mph faster and 1000 ft higher at ~4.5k seperation. After I reversed I got speed up a bit and the "merge" differential was roughly 105 mph and 1600 ft alt. The mossie was able to easily take the high ground and force a series of tightening yoyos. The fight converted to a flat semi rolling scissor on the deck. The mossie closed to well under 400 but was unable to secure a guns solution and unable to match the A-20 in a climbing scissor. The A-20 easily topped out the mossie in the vertical and closed out the fight.
The primary misconception is that the A-20 is a "lumbering" plane and easy to hit and inferior in the vertical. The A-20 is outstanding in midspeed evasives and energy recovery, combined with exceptionally smooth mid range handling it can convert from E to angles and back to E fighting as well or better then any plane in the game...
Someone came looking for an A-20...found one...and walked home.
Nuff said...
I still have not lost a 1 on 1 to either a mossie or 110 (regardless of initial disadvantage) in the A-20. Could the mossie b&Zed me to death....sure. The moment he actually converted to a "dog fight" he died. In fact it took exactly 3 revolutions for me to move the mossie from 400 on my 6 to toast.
Now that doesnt mean that I'd win the next one or everyone vs a quality stick. What is does show is that any claim that the A-20 is incapable of beating a "well flown" mossie {or any other plane} is wrong.
I dont think the mossie was poorly flown at all, in fact it was a very well executed positive E attack. The mossie driver simply didnt give the A-20 enough credit.
The A-20 modeling is probably just fine, the moves I but on the mossie were just BFM manipulating the lift vector vs the mossie. He got out of sync and out of plane and I was inside his "nose cone". Once that happened the A-20 just dominated the mossie even though I lost views on him for a bit...
You said it best, you dont dogfight an A-20 regardless of what your flying.
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i actualy agree with karnak that the mosquito is just able to outclass the A-20 in almost every aspect of dogfighting, and very comfotably outclass the A-20 in a few key areas of flight such as weapon package and top speed.
what i disagree strongly with is that the mossy cannot lose to the A-20 with equal pilots.
every fight is different. or...more acurately....if every one of your is the same as the last then you really should be expanding your knoledge in other areas and other flying styles.
x-plane does not just beat y-plane every time on stats or 'equal pilots' alone. 10 fights in a row with resonably similar pilots and individual planes it is not easy to find a match up that will produce a 10-0 victory every single time unless one person is winning with an unfair advantage on merge.
sure the best flown spitfire MkV will probably beat the best flown A-20 10/10 fights in the Da environment, there is one matchup that defies my point, but there are not many. And more importantly, the MA mindset of most players is very different to the planned and controlled DA merge.
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The D-25 jug is "outclassed" but that doesnt stop you and RT and blukitty and a host of others from beating "better" planes flown by respected pilots. There is no question the A-20 is totally outclassed in almost every aspect however it does have certain characteristics it can exploit..no different then the jug.
I've spent a significant amount of time figuring out what it can do (and i'm still learning) instead of simply assuming it cant. Meanwhile I'm being told I'm not "qualified" to offer opinions on its relative merits.
Long before I ever started to fly the A-20 I made the comment that some people worry about the other plane but smart pilots worry about who's in the other plane. To me that still holds true in the A-20...I'm not particularly worried about what I run into....just who I run into:D
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B@tfinkV,
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have not once said the Mosquito would never lose. I said it would win the gross majority of the fights, not all of them.
I have never fought an A-20G with the Mosquito that I recall. I have had a good number of Mosquito vs Bf110G-2 fights and Mosquito vs Mosquito fights. I have never lost to a Bf110G-2 and very rarely to a Mosquito. P-38s are very much harder.
As to the A-20G's performance. I highly doubt it was as capable a fighter in reality as it is here. I seem to recall an A-20G pilot telling me that it was not permitted to roll upside down for example.
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That's my last post, this is going nowhere with you.. My impression and gut feeling is that you aren't good enough a stick to have taken planes like the mossie, 110, P38 and others far enough towards the limit of their envelope to realize how far beyond the A20's those envelopes are, resulting in the inaccurate comparisons you make between the A20 and pretty much everything else.
:D
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I dont have anything to prove humble... I let you fly your A20 to see what was up with you, because you've got such an incongruous thing going. Cheerleading the A20 like it's some hidden treasure...
Like I said in game, next time I will just shoot you down like I could have. You're really outta touch humble. Me or AKAK or anyone else will prove it to you. I'm surprised batfink hasn't shown you, maybe he's just along for the friendship bandwagon.
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Your egos writing checks your stick cant cash:)
It's funny I've never once have belittled another player about relative ability and I dont have any delusions about my overall skill level or place on the pecking order. Meanwhile I'm sitting here listening to both of you pompous guys tell me just how mediocre and misquided I am.
You didnt "let me" do anything. You flew an aggressive positive E attack and I sucked you in and thumped your butt fair and square.
The bottom line is simple, you called me out over 200, hunted my A-20 (and found it) engaged me with alt & E and got beat even up. You couldnt hit me from 400...so much for just flipping the turtle:p
I've got no real issues with either one of you and I have zero clue why you both seem to feel the need to belittle me for an opinion based on experience. Both of you seem so sure that your past experience with the A-20 exceeds my current experience and that your significantly "superior" overall as pilots. Yet neither one of you has any real experience flying against me in anything let alone the A-20.
Had you beaten me (and you had every intention of doing just that) it wouldnt have mattered that you had alt & E on me to start. Given the options at hand I chose to make it a flying contest not a guns contest. I converted your semi vertical E attack which would have inevitably given you a good snapshot into a different type of fight. That involved giving you my 6 at a range that encouraged you not to resume attacks in the vertical and relying on your belief you "know everything" about the A-20 to suck you into a fight the mossie wouldnt win. I took you from a flat scissor to a semi rolling scissor to a vertical scissor and then went vertical on you in a modified double who's high AoA (duh) the "superior" mossie couldnt handle and sawed your wing off with a single burst.
You lost because I flew the snot out of the A-20 and beat you in a superior plane that had superior position by putting your better ride in a situation where it was forced to use its less then stellar aspects...
Basically smooth is fast and wobbly ended up dead. So regardless of what happens in the future (and I'm sure we'll meet again) the 1st time my A-20 met your Mossie you died.
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I'll just kill you like the average pilot flying a big turtle plane you are, from now on... No offense but now I'm wasting my time trying to play it fair. I could have done something else than equalize E with 75% fuel and extra ammo load in a mossie while you were already all set for flaps etc.
Writing checks my stick can't cash? You just shot any chance of me trying to play along anymore... If I'd played it straight you'd have "died the first time we met" and what would that have proven? You're just after bragging rights the same way dweeby noobs pull out stats saying they shot you down once, nevermind it being when you werent looking...
If I can't hit you from 400 it's got nothing to do with whatever super duper properties the A20's supposed to have.
This was never about you humble, I said that many times before, that it was strictly about the A20 being far below fighters' worries 1:1, but you keep repeating that me or AKAK or anyone else is in fact insinuating you suck or that it's in a belittling tone.
Now though it's obvious you can't keep your ego out of it.
(and you had every intention of doing just that)
Wrong, and you being so damn sure of it just shows you've shut your blinders to anything but your agenda... Cheerleading the A20 no matter what, even if it means ignoring the facts.
In fact if batfink's around you as much as he seems to be he might echo what I'm saying, that I'll fly real lax in duels if I don't see any threat or if I'm curious about what someone can do.
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karnak i appologise, i misunderstood your post.
Originally posted by moot
I'll just kill you like the average pilot flying a big turtle plane you are, from now on... No offense but now I'm wasting my time trying to play it fair. .
'playing it fair' was and should be part of the test between the two aircraft. If you have to avoid 'playing it fair' to beat humble then you are not proving anything aside from 'initial advantage will win most fights'
you claim further down this post not to make this anything personal with humble yet your first quoted line here is most derogatory.
I have flown humble's wing or fought head to head with him in the DA for the last 2.5 maybe even 3 years. not only has his vast stack of experience (which goes light years beyond mine) helped me to improve my overall game, but his even larger stack of friendship has benifited me and countless others on a personal level.
he is not ego centered in any way, and thus you consider him an 'average pilot' because he doesnt promote himself in many aspects of this game.
whereas most people will lose and look for excuses as to why they lost, humble will always consider the other pilots skill, and what his enemy 'did right' long before he will look for excuses as to why he lost or what he 'did wrong'.
as to the A20 i think the debate has finished and opinions been made quite clear from all sides. but there seems to be more to it here than just performance. thing is, i dont see many other people using 95% A-20 clips to help explain fighter tactics to the new guys....
i do really hope that the many objections aimed at humble are not through jealousy that he was taking 'the spotlight' for the voice of the A-20 in the training forum.
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Originally posted by moot
I'll just kill you like the average pilot flying a big turtle plane you are, from now on... No offense but now I'm wasting my time trying to play it fair. I could have done something else than equalize E with 75% fuel and extra ammo load in a mossie while you were already all set for flaps etc.
Writing checks my stick can't cash? You just shot any chance of me trying to play along anymore... If I'd played it straight you'd have "died the first time we met" and what would that have proven? You're just after bragging rights the same way dweeby noobs pull out stats saying they shot you down once, nevermind it being when you werent looking...
If I can't hit you from 400 it's got nothing to do with whatever super duper properties the A20's supposed to have.
This was never about you humble, I said that many times before, that it was strictly about the A20 being far below fighters' worries 1:1, but you keep repeating that me or AKAK or anyone else is in fact insinuating you suck or that it's in a belittling tone.
Now though it's obvious you can't keep your ego out of it.
Wrong, and you being so damn sure of it just shows you've shut your blinders to anything but your agenda... Cheerleading the A20 no matter what, even if it means ignoring the facts.
In fact if batfink's around you as much as he seems to be he might echo what I'm saying, that I'll fly real lax in duels if I don't see any threat or if I'm curious about what someone can do.
somebody got owned (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/A-20vsMossie.ahf)
Here's the clip.
Please show me where you got "fair".You came in with alt & E went vertical immediately right into a classic positive E attack and drove me to the deck. There was nothing fair or even in your attack. You had every intent on doing just what you said you would....end of story.
This isn't personal, but you to sure seem to need to make it that. I actually have zero agenda with the A-20, I simply enjoy flying it to a suprising degree.
I've never said I could beat anybody (including you) in the A-20 vs any plane. What I've said is that I feel like I can beat any plane/pilot in the A-20 just like I would in any other plane. When I lose a fight I look to the 85% of the encounter that was under my control not to the other guys ride. I also said that so far I have not lost a single 1 on 1 fight to either a Mossie or 110 (still true). A week ago I could have said the same thing about the pony (skat took care of that)...
Did you not come up on 200 asking "where the a-20 is"? Point blank you were looking for me. You didnt ask if it was me. You didnt look to set up a fair fight. You came in looking to stomp on me...fine.
I dont ever talk smack to anybody, and I didnt here. I simply said what I've said all along. That the A-20 is suprisngly capable in the air to air role and can but up a good fight vs all comers if it has some alt to play with. Bat told you how tough it seems to be for guys to draw a bead on the A-20 (if its flown well). Of course that cant have anything to do with me, has to be the other guy having a bad day. Every comment in this thread has been directed at me. My lack of ability, my lack of experience, my noobishness. Meanwhile I've tried to be reasonable, fair and on topic.
However at this point I simply dont see the benifit of being nice here. You didnt give me a "fair fight". You came to kill me and had every opportunity to do so and got owned. Bat and I are good friends and we spend a fair amount of time in the DA. I think he's a better stick then I am but we go back and forth most of the time. When I'm fooling around with Bat I'm well aware that regardless of the plane he's in its Bat flying it...if he could open the window on a goon he'd kill me with the .45 if I gave him an opening. So I try and treat everybody I run into with the respect I give Bat in a fight...including you.
End when it was over I wasnt demeaning at all over 200 and didnt make any comment other then saluting you for a fun fight that could have gone either way. What you didnt understand is that Bat and I readily give each other our 6. Bat knows that when he's 600 behind me he's in the most danger (and the same if I'm on him). We both feel the defender has the advantage and spend alot of time beating each other up. 70% of our fights are exactly what you saw...on the deck between the trees under 150 in the vertical...except bat and I would have gone at least another 5 minutes there (and that is not ment as a belittling comment). We both can fight just about everything in the vertical indefinately at 150 or less.
I am far from the best stick here, but I'm way above "average" or a noob. When I put stats out they are what they are. I was flying the A-20 low, slow on the deck in a heavily red enviornment. Most of my losses came in heavy traffic to Lynx, bipolar and other good pilots who can kill me regardless of what i'm in.
My question to you is simple. For a guy with a good reputation who normally seems to act with some class....why didnt you? Whats wrong with simply saying I flew the A-20 better then you thought it could be flown and you wont make the same mistake again...end of story.
Like I said it was a good fight and next time will be next time. So we reach a point where I guess you have 2 choices. If I'm an average pilot at best and the A-20 is a pitiful plane (as a fighter) and your such a good stick and an expert in both the mossie and the A-20....well why did you lose?
Or maybe, just maybe I'm a better then average stick who's spent a fair amount of time actually fighting the A-20 "as a fighter" {yes I know it isn't} and has learned that its got alot of subtle strengths that can be applied in a fight. Now if you leave it up to me I'd say you got educated. But if you want to stay nasty then I'll leave it as you got owned...this time.
.
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While this pissing match is entertaining, the original question . . .
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the mosquito has a fighter mode, wuld it be possible to have the same option for the A20?
[/b]
. . . was answered quite correctly here . . .
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Correct...the only variants of the Havoc that were considered "fighters" were the P-70 and P-70A (night fighters). Both saw service with the USAAC in in the PTO only and their service time was brief. Both were equipped with the British AI Mk IV and the P-70 was equipped with 4 20mm (60 rounds each) in the nose. The P-70A had machine guns mounted in the nose.
Contrary to what some may believe, the A-20 was primarily used as a bomber that was capable of both high and low altitude bombing missions. Yes, it could defend itself if needed like the A-26 but it still doesn't change the fact that it was first and foremost a bomber and was used almost exclusively in that role (with the exception of some specialized variants like the above mentiond P-70 series).
. . . and that's about the end of it.
Now, bring night to AH, and add the P-70 as a "fighter," and everyone would be happy, yes?
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You guys are still going at it? Give it up.
BTW, the A-20 is not a fighter and shouldn't be scored as such.
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I never said it should be classified as a fighter....
I dont know that it truely belongs as a "fighter" but its got roughly the same air to air capability as the Mossie and the 110 do
That led to this entire little drama during which I was repeatedly told to go back to the kiddie table and let the adults discuss stuff. If you look at the film I did exactly what I said I could do to a well flown mossie.
Now the reality is that the A-20 was not a bomber or a fighter. It was classified an an Attack aircraft (hence the "A" vs the "B"). It would be roughly comparable to the more modern vietnam era A-6 intruder.
My "argument" has never been that the A-20 is a fighter, simply that it can be flown as one with a reasonable level of success. The single most telling quote regarding air combat (IMO) is from a Korea era marine pilot.
"There are two kinds of planes, fighters and targets"
At heart I'm a fighter pilot, I was set to fly harriers for the Marines when my vision went south all of a sudden. History is full of "overmatched" planes doing remarkably well, from the french flown hawk 75, russian P-39, finish buffalo to the polish Bi-planes and beyond.
The fight is in the pilot, not the plane. All m00t found out is that he's a bit more plane/situation dependent then he thought he was.
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Originally posted by humble
I never said it should be classified as a fighter....
I was responding to the initial post; "Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode".
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Just watched the film ... yes you won ... "owned" him ... I don't think so.
At about 1+ minute into the film he could have turned you into shredded wheat ... but he took a small pop shot instead.
That tells me that he probably was thinking that the fight was not "fair" and decided to not go nuclear on you, because he did have the upperhand. The rest of the fight, from my POV shows the same. There was no pwnage there. Was nice of Bat to give a "textual" helping hand when you "lost him".
The A20 is very deadly in capable hands, but what I think comes into play with most who take on a A20 is the mindset ... "EASY KILL" ... and 99% of the time it is ... so they are taken by surprise with the likes of a Cobia or you, and find themselves in deep doo doo before they can recover.
Whenever I see an A20 taking a "fighting" stance or involved in a "fighting" scenario, I immediately think ... COBIA !!! ... and my whole attitude and thought process changes. I will now think ... COBIA / SNAPHOOK.
I have fought Cobia many times ... FM2 or F6F vs A20 ... and to the best of my recollection, I have yet to lose a true 1 v 1 ... why ? ... cause I fight him like it was a Zeke. Not that the plane handles like a Zeke ... it's because "he" is deadly ... I don't worry about the plane at all.
Everytime I have beaten Cobia ... I thank my lucky stars that he was in an A20 and not in a P-38 and admire the fact that he plows right in with that flying boat and does what he does and never gets upset after a loss.
A20 ... very capable/deadly ... a "fighter" ... it is not.
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Freakin wall of text.
Owned? Now I just don't care about your freakin plane and your bogus claims.. You're getting the same treatment as every other medium stick that gives me that crap... I'll own you if you've got the bad luck to get in my way from now on buddy.
You can figure out for sure how the A20 really matches up to mossies, 110s and 38s with some other guinea pig.
Bat:
" If you have to avoid 'playing it fair' to beat humble then you are not proving anything aside from 'initial advantage will win most fights'" No ****.. that was the intent with not killing the fight at the first opportunity I had.
I could've upped with 50% fuel, light ammo, etc, but instead I busted my bellybutton to keep it fair. To show what everyone but Humble knows, that the A20 just doesn't hold a candle to fighters if the odds are even.
"Derogatory" - Wrong.. Maybe my mannerisms aren't quite anglosaxon anymore, but there was nothing condescending about anything I posted till after a few of Humble's insisting accusations that I, or AKAK or anyone else is talking down to him. I'd repeated that and it fell on deaf ears. You keep playing the nice guy conciliating card, but that's bogus too.
If you were fair you'd let Humble know the A20 isn't what he claims it to be. If you and humble were as unconcerned with ego as you pretended, you'd never have mentionned it.. It never occured to me till Humble brought it up.
Waste of time.
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slap I have no way to know what his true intent was or if he fired just the .303's. From what I heard in the fight and on the film it sounds like he fired the 20mm. No question he had a shot window at 1 min or that he had control of the fight from the beginning. It is not possible to avoid giving the con a shot in a scissors. I also cant think of any other option I had to win the fight. Had he wanted to reset he didnt need to follow me thru the scissors...
Watching from his end all I saw was what I expected (and what I saw from my end during the fight). A very uncollected plane...which isnt Moots fault at all, the mossie simply doesnt handle as well as the A-20 in that particular situation....so yes he had a couple of brief shot opportunities but no easy tracking shot. Which is exactly what I said earlier in the thread. The mossy would win if it landed a FQ or snapshot otherwise the A-20 would win if it got down and dirty.
He wasnt able to deny the overshoot or saddle up on the A-20. Bats text comments didnt really register at the time (I'm looking out the window:))...and my view is fixed on right where he appears. The A-20 has alot of blind area and its not uncommon for me to lose a con there. I simply flew best guess and reaquired him. You'll note that he lost me as well and didnt protect himself well at all.
If you go back in thru this thread the fight played out exactly as I predicted it would with the A-20 flying a very 38 like defense and winning a slow climbing high AoA fight from a defensive position.
This is not my style at all and was not my intent since I dont normally engage in pissing matches here or on 200.
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LoL
Moot your right, I'm just an average stick in a crappy plane that flew your sorry arnold into the ground:D
I wasnt hard to find last time and I wont be next time either. You caught me low slow and on the deck and couldnt close the deal and you think you'll do better up high;).
The mossie (or 110) will always control that fight. And yes its easy to stand off and B&Z the A-20 to death. And yes the A-20 will always start on the defensive and be at risk to a snapshot....but if you get down and dirty with me you better bring a better game then what you showed me there.
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Flew my bellybutton into the ground? How? Telekinesis?
Couldn't close the deal? I didn't have a shot? I didn't pass up on the killshots I had? I didn't keep the odds even so you could have the room to strut your A20 stuff?
Man you're really full of ****. It's going to feel good not to have any reason to hold back and pack that **** even denser than it is now.. I'm sorry I ever thought it'd be worthwhile slowing down for you.
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Originally posted by moot
Total bs.
And like I said I've flown the A20 plenty. You looking up my stats for these last tours as base for your arguments is like Titanic shrugging off the tip of the iceberg as nothing to worry about.
If that's what it takes to get those wooden glasses off your eyes, bring your A20 anytime. I'll take either a mossie or 110 and turn it to scrap metal in under 3 revolutions.. Nevermind a P38.
"The A20 easily outhandles the 110, mossie and 38 at high AoA". Wow. :lol
Didnt quite happen like that did it.
I saw one shot opportunity at 1 min...you fired and you tickled me with a few .303's. I dont know if you fired your 20mm or not (feel free to post a film if you have it) but given the fact you had alt and E that wouldnt have proven much.
What your basically saying is that you had alt & E on me and took it easy after forcing me down. So why not stay on my 6? As you said the mossie will easily hang with the A-20 which is just a big lumbering target?
We can both agree that you were 400 out on my 6 and 90 seconds later I had total control of the fight. Seperate from the question of IF you actually passed on a shot the end result is I flew circles around you in a plane you admit is inferior to the mossie across the board. You got no shot after the 1st that I saw....
You called me out on 200 and came looking for me, shrugged off any real fair "gee lets see what happens" type of a fight and then made excuses when you lost. I'm fighting a "superior" plane with a good pilot, a great gun package in a superior position that bores in for a kill shot and I'm supposed to read your mind:) Kiss my grits...
I'll let the film speak for itself....
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Jeesh . . . just take it to the DA already. :rolleyes:
Then make sure to post film. ;)
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None of what I'll say wasn't already said, but since you can't get it thru your head:
It wasn't ever about winning. I know I can outfly you, I know the mossie outflies the A20, I know coming into a fight and winning it outright won't go anywhere in terms of seeing whether the A20 does all you say it does.. cause thats what it was about since the beginning, you saying you can get the A20 to do some stuff fighters can't keep up with. "P38-lite" etc.
Now if you want to take it to the DA and for me to come over without lots of fuel etc, no excuses (as I came that time but you'd be hard pressed to report as such) or anything.. then sure, I'll wipe the floor..
I was just curious and what I found was what I predicted.
I'm not about to hunt you down but if I do find your A20, I won't be leaving margins to see what you can do.. Anyone but you already knows it'll get snuffed quick when it is about winning. So you'll see it for yourself.. I won't be reporting back here with film for bragging rights like you're so starved for apparently.
The A20's nothing compared to fighters, it's not a P38 lite, it's not something anyone will be surprised by anytime they've seen it fly once or twice to gauge its capabilities.
And tell ya what... I'll give up AH if you can beat me in the DA, like E25280 says. No mercy this time.. 3 or 5 rounds, a matter of 15min and you'll get those bragging rights for your A20 bomber, as well as proving I'm just a thread hijacker.. right?
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i have read all your replys, and i tend to agree with you on some aspects, i still agree with humble on others.
i feel i have a friendship with both of you and i really dont want to damage either of thos friendships so i am out of this thread.
S!
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Ill tell ya what bat... if you do me a favor, i'll return it in kind, whatever price you name..
Check your PMs.
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Moot you continue to miss the point entirely....
I've never said that I can beat you or anyone else in the A-20 (or in any plane). What I have said is that I can fight the A-20 competatively vs any plane or pilot and doent feel that the A-20 limits my ability to win a fight. I've said that I've never lost a "1 on 1" in the MA to a mossie or 110 in the A-20 yet. I've used the "P-38 lite" as an attempt to decribe how I feel about the FM and the way I try and fly the plane...nothing more.
For some reason you feel the need to blow this into a bigger thing then it is. When you came on 200 initially I told you I'd love to fly a few. To the best of my knowledge the DA doent have the A-20 enabled (I've never found it) {is there a bomber part?}. My problem right now is that for me this is a "fun issue" and your making it something else entirely. My whole initial purpose in flying the A-20 is because it's a challenge...more so then the mossie or 110 by a pretty big margin. As I fooled with it I found that an awful lot of the stuff I taught here as a trainer was applicable in the A-20. Sound basic fundemental flying will allow the A-20 to compete with any of the fighters in the game. As Bat said I've posted a bunch of stuff that shows the A-20 (win and lose) vs a variety or planes and pilots. Primarily as an aid to guys that are at the beginning of the learning curve and view the game as a fight between two planes, not two pilots.
I fly the Mossie also (I landed two 8 kill sorties yesterday), no question its an easier plane to fly, and given that its inherently faster, climbs better and has 4 x 20mm in the nose I've got no doubt you or any other guy can grab the high ground (DA or MA) and dictate the fight. Slap said it best, you treat the A-20 like a zeke. In a theoretical world the mossie should never lose a fight to the A-20 if it starts from nuetral ground...
Going back to our fight in the MA....that wasnt an even fight. You didnt ask if it was me, you didnt give me an "even start". I've had all kind of guys look me up in the MA in the A-20, and have had numerous great fights...win or lose. I've also had numerous "aces" lose to me in "there ride" (1 on 1) and then come hunt me down in a spit16 or la-7 (sometimes they lost that one also:))...
You had or didnt have a shot, if you did you missed it, or only fired .303's so be it. I hit 3 or 4 planes yesterday in the mossie that didnt go down. I hit an A-20 4 times and it was flying. I hit a B-25 4 times, popped a pony right in the engine, cockpit and took the radiator, engine oil and didnt even get the kill when another guy finished him. Landing a hit wouldnt have ended that fight for sure since you did not have a tracking shot.
The simple reality is this, we are apparently completely different people. Your "daz skillz" and I just like to have fun. If it had been me in the A-20 over you i'd have buzzed over the mossie asked if it was you and dragged us off a bit waited for you to get to speed at 5k and gone to a guns cold merge with a 2k max extension (if you agreed)...
Like I said I'm not to hard to find, I'm in the DA often enough and you had no problem finding me in the MA. My question in all this is what your actually trying to prove? Your earlier comments made it sound like you could easily outfly the A-20 (this is plane to plane not you vs me) in stall, semi stall and T&B end game situations. I think that the film shows the A-20 is more capable then you gave it credit for regardless of the outcome of the particular fight.
When it was over I saluted you on 200 for a fun well flown fight that could have gone either way. Why make it more then that?
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I don't give a rat's ass.... I honestly just don't care. I didn't even read that post above because it's just more of the same. Toot the A20 all you like. You're wrong. Doesn't matter anyway.. I know I sound jaded, because I am, but I know you're wrong and I just don't care about proving it anymore. I don't know why I ever cared, it's just pointless to argue it. I never really cared all that much about it, but I'm just a stubborn sort who can get carried away defending a point no matter how minor just for the sake of integrity; but now I just don't give a ****.
And if that was you just now with the shade account in the DA.. You're not just childish and stupid, but also a total creep.. get help.
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Excuse me???
Why would you think I'd need a shade account?
Obviously this is a big issue for you for some reason. I'm all for friendly rivalry but you've gone over the edge a bit on this. I logged of and went to feed my horses.
Like I said i'm pretty easy to find, beyond that I'll leave the rest of this drama locked up in your head where it belongs...
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No drama, just bs on your part. I called you on it, you won't concede it.. Let's just DA and see.
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Originally posted by moot
No drama, just bs on your part. I called you on it, you won't concede it.. Let's just DA and see.
Hmmmm....
You came, you saw, you died....
Any part of that you didnt understand?
Feel free to try again:aok
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Sure, anytime in the DA.. I won't be sightseeing.
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Got a chance to fly a few with moot in the DA. Other then getting "1st blood" {but not a kill} Didnt get a chance to say much beyond " nice, nice nice":)....
I'll get films up tonight and Moot has his side as well. No question that from a straight dueling perspective the A-20 is chugging seriously uphill, much more so then I'd have thought. At the same time I dont think it's completely hopeless either. For the moment I'll tend to give more of the credit to Moot then the mossie (no question its got a bigger edge then I thought).
Moot made a comment I agree with 100% in that he called the MA enviornment a "chess game" and the DA a "tic,tac,toe" enviornment...obviously alot easier for the a-20 in the former then the latter.
Hopefully i'll get to fly some different stuff with moot over the next few weeks, my comment with regard to the a-20 has always been that the folks who beat me in it are just as likely to beat me in anything else...I dont know that that still isnt true. I got the reversal on the 1st merge but got dusted on all 3...so if the merge is 85% of a duel then 85% of it was me vs what I was flying. The 4th I was fooling with a few things and it was a better merge but that time no question the mossie hung with me in alot of high AoA stuff I wouldnt have thought it could....again i'd say I got outflown not outplaned there.
Anyway, I'll need to digest things a bit and then try and drag him back in a for a few more:)....films should be up tomorrow for anyone interested.
Alot of fun and some great merges from moot...
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Sure, we can find as many data points as you like.. The merges were meant to get gradualy looser to see how it "mapped" on the A20's envelope.. I'm pretty sure the mossie can turn inside that first tightest merge for a killshot, but most likely at the cost of exposure to a counter shot next reverse.
I don't know if reversing before the merge like you did is an advantage.
Like I had said earlier, the A20 can probably surprise a lot of fighters in a number of ways.. but once the data points are known, there's nowhere for the A20 to hide. That's my opinion, no offense intended. :)
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None taken....
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Remind me again, does A20 = Boston?
23, 418 and 605 Squadrons used the Boston in the night intruder role, sadly with a singular lack of success, though that may in part have been due to the lack of cannon.
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I, for one, would like to see the videos of these Mossie vs Havoc fights.
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Humble has the megaupload link...
Here's another (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1DXHEOXQ). I fly the mossie at about 9/10ths pretty much the whole time. I get out of line when my hands get off the controls to type stuff a few times.
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moot i dont think i,ve run into you befor in MA but i would love the chance to go 1 on 1 a20 v mossi
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
You guys are still going at it? Give it up.
BTW, the A-20 is not a fighter and shouldn't be scored as such.
The G model wasn't, but the Havoc might have a shot :D
P-70 Nightfighter (http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p70.html)
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scherf...A-20 Havoc is basically same aircraft as the Boston III(DB-7 for Douglas Bomber)..btw..the first 250 A-20g's that were produced had 4x20mm and 2x 50cal mg in nose...cannons were replace by 50cals because they were found to be unreliable.
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Originally posted by TOMCAT21
scherf...A-20 Havoc is basically same aircraft as the Boston III(DB-7 for Douglas Bomber)..btw..the first 250 A-20g's that were produced had 4x20mm and 2x 50cal mg in nose...cannons were replace by 50cals because they were found to be unreliable.
The A-20G we have is a significant upgrade over the boston we have here...no comparision between the planes in overall performance IMO. The A-20 has much better control surface authority at higher speeds as well as more power and better guns.
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Originally posted by cobia38
moot i dont think i,ve run into you befor in MA but i would love the chance to go 1 on 1 a20 v mossi
I remember you from early days, in the MA or H2H.. DA anytime.
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Originally posted by moot
Humble has the megaupload link...
Here's another (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1DXHEOXQ). I fly the mossie at about 9/10ths pretty much the whole time. I get out of line when my hands get off the controls to type stuff a few times.
couldnt upload to the site I use...all should be up over weekend...
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Thx gents.
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After running into Cobia38 last night(
Sir), I say yes on the fighter mode. It can be flown that way, quite well. Cobia, what is your equipment setup like to push the A-20 that hard?
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Doesn't mean it IS a fighter. You can fly a B-26 like a fighter too. You can fly a B5n like a fighter too.
Know what? They're not fighters. The WAY it's flown does not dictate its purpose nor should it the scoring method.
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Roger that Krusty. I just was amazed at the way he shot me down 4 times in 3 different Spits (8,9,16), and a Nik in short order. All of which I had Alt advantage, not sure about E advantage as those big planes hide it well. I should have had the turn & burn advantage, but it did not turn out that way. If I run into a B-26 that pulls these aerobatics, then my AH world will be rocked again.
Oink
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You can not fly a B-26 (or B-25) remotely near an A-20, especially an A-20 flown by someone like cobia or WW.
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how about we end this post because we all know that htc wont make the a 20 do fighter sorties
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Originally posted by Scherf
Remind me again, does A20 = Boston?
BostonIII = A20A
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the way i see it is this
if you select ATTACK mode in the hanger on a plane that is fighter/attack
selectable your perk points still go towerds fighter,but your scored as attack.
on planes that have attack/bomber selections and you select attack, your scored as attack but your perk points are BOMBER
here is wher its screwed up in my opinion.
i think that either ther should be a seperat perk cat. for attack.then you can include some perked rides such as A-26,s or other rare attack aircaft.
or.... any air to air kill made by a fixed gun aircraft is scored/perkpoints as fighter.
in compairing a-20 to mossi ther isent much diff between them heck they both have bomb bay doors !!!
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But, Humble, again it's not about how you CAN fly the plane, it's about how it was DESIGNED to fly.
You can fly a P-47D with 2500lbs of bombs and 10 rockets and use it as a dive bomber if you want. It wasn't a bomber. You can turn fight in a Ju87 (fun, for a brief period of time) but this is NOT a fighter.
The categories are based on the historical role of the craft in question, NOT how they are ultimately used/misused in AH.
P.S. The engines were upgraded, the nose faired over and filled with guns, but in general the airframe SHOULD be identical. Now imagine if the A-20G flew like the Boston III. That seems a lot more realistic than the Boston III flying like the A-20G, IMO. Chances are this is a bugged or inaccurate flight model from the first generation of craft ever modeled in the game, and if (when??) it's ever remodeled, these "features" may go bye-bye like the P-47s super turn fighter status did. Just food for thought.
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The A-20G was a significantly reworked version designed.....for better air to air and air to ground capability. It had more power, stronger wings and better control authority. The A-26 took things a step further still. The A-20G wasnt designed as a fighter....but it was designed to have an air to air combat capability. Bombers, even medium bombers have gun positions for defense. While the A-20 does have a top turret the reality is that the planes air to air capability was a major component of its defensive capability. Further it doesnt have a bombsite or bomidear (sp?)....
As cobia said (and I've said) it was an attack plane not a bomber. So given the two catigories of "fighter/attack" or "attack/bomber" the arguement that the a-20 (a plane with no bombsite or true defensive gun pakage) should be a "bomber" vs a "fighter" is suspect.
In the end the A-20 is closer to a fighter then a bomber and its overall performance (in real life) is alot closer to the mossie or 110 then the B-25/B-26.
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Okay, perhaps my use of "bomber" wasn't the best choice. I agree it's more of an attacker.
The best parallel would be the IL2. It's got a bomber scoring and an attack scoring option. You can still fly it as base defense and get a lot of dogfight kills, but it would not really qualify as a fighter. Sure it can defend itself, in some circumstances, but it was never sent out with the intention of engaging the enemy in the air and/or air superiority.
Side note: Night fighting doesn't count, as most often bombers and attackers were used rather than traditional fighters, because they had 2 engines (freeing up nose space for the radar and guns packages) and more than 1 crew. The Blenheim, the Ju88, the Beaufighter, the Japanese used recon planes with upward firing guns, etc. None of these were fighters, but still could kill bombers at night. So in regards to saying "Boston III was a night fighter" -- doesn't really make it a fighter. I just wanted to reply to that earlier point while I had it fresh in mind.
:aok
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I'm not arguing that point at all....it was never intended as a "fighter". It isnt however a bomber either...its really a ground attack plane. Basically the WW2 equivelent to the A-6 intruder...
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Exactly why we need attack only perk/score. When the A26 is introduce the solid nose version is an example of a perk attack ac.
Anything without a lvl bomb sight should be designated as such.
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Originally posted by humble
The A-20G was a significantly reworked version designed.....for better air to air and air to ground capability. It had more power, stronger wings and better control authority. The A-26 took things a step further still. The A-20G wasnt designed as a fighter....but it was designed to have an air to air combat capability. Bombers, even medium bombers have gun positions for defense. While the A-20 does have a top turret the reality is that the planes air to air capability was a major component of its defensive capability. Further it doesnt have a bombsite or bomidear (sp?)....
As cobia said (and I've said) it was an attack plane not a bomber. So given the two catigories of "fighter/attack" or "attack/bomber" the arguement that the a-20 (a plane with no bombsite or true defensive gun pakage) should be a "bomber" vs a "fighter" is suspect.
In the end the A-20 is closer to a fighter then a bomber and its overall performance (in real life) is alot closer to the mossie or 110 then the B-25/B-26.
The bombardier position was eliminated so the weapons package of up to 8 .50 cals (this I didn't know but the A-20G also was designed to carry 4 20mm Hispanos, though I don't know if any used them in combat.). This provided the Havoc with a powerful punch for strafing ground targets. Something the USAAF learned in the Pacific where glass-nosed A-20s had been fitted with field modifications to increase their forward firepower during low-level strafing missions. The added firepower was not installed with air to air combat in mind or even a thought in the design.
The only A-20G variant that was designed with air to air combat in mind, was the P-70s and P-70As.
In the end, the A-20G was closer to a bomber than a fighter, after all that's how it was designed and how it was used in the war. It's over all performance was equal to that of a light/medium bomber, with more in common with planes like the B-25, B-26, Bristol Blenheim, Bristol Beaufighter, Junkers Ju 88, Messerschmitt Me 210, and Petlyakov Pe-2 than any fighter.
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Did a little more research on the 20mm equipped A-20s. Apparently the cannons were so unreliable with a slow rate of fire that only 250 Havocs were made with the 4x 20mm cannons in the solid nose. Out of those 250, 100 were converted back to the 6x .50 cals in the nose while the remaining 150 cannon equipped Havocs were sent to the Soviets as part of the Land Lease program. No information on whether or not the Soviets retained the cannons on these Havocs or not.
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