Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Murdr on December 14, 2007, 01:49:08 AM
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(# of enemy in proximity/# of friendlies within proximity)=ProxyMod
ProxyMod*DamageVsEny=Damage vs Eny points logged for incident
and...
ProxyMod*DamageVsEny=Perk points logged for incident
Seriously! Im sick of the "war game"/"overwhelming force"/"teamplay" mentality of some sects in the game. Mind you, not the normal Murphies Law of gameplay, but the guys who think AH is about calling the whole squad in on one lone enemy.
The guy in a 4v1 should get x4 points for damaging enemy planes, and the 4 hero's attacking the lone enemy should get x0.25 points.
Coordinated local ganging is going to ruin gameplay regardless of "ENY" (country balancer). At least make so the score whordes make less score progress for regularly not fighting without an outragous advantage.
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AGREED !!!! So tired of fighting half a dozen guys at once. On the plus side I'm getting better at furballs !:rolleyes:
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Right on!
If you take on 4 planes with one you should get 4x multiplier compared to the guy who took on 1 plane with 3 friendly s flying next to him.
What do you think, 2k globe?
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I Agree x 3!
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Definitely interesting, but I'd be worried it'd be too complex to code for the proper outcome.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Definitely interesting, but I'd be worried it'd be too complex to code for the proper outcome.
Agree. Considering the tactical situation for scoring system may be a bit too much to program.
And another example: A few days ago I was swooping down on a P47 mission climbing heavy over some mountains. They did outnumber me 6-1, but with all that E advantge a score/perk multiplier would have been extremely unfair.
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I actually like this idea, but I don't pretend to know how difficult this would be to program. Perhaps not that hard, simply count planes within range Xk, at the moment the kill message is sent?
Even at a disadvantage of alt/speed, 6 to 1 is really good odds, I don't care who you are.
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I like it. There already is a system in place that works with distance to an enemy. The proxy kill radius uses it, but it's probably too far of a distance for what we're talking about here. 2k would probably be about right.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Even at a disadvantage of alt/speed, 6 to 1 is really good odds, I don't care who you are.
6 cons (mostly Jugs) at 10k, but still only 500ft above ground level (trying to get over that mountain), 200mph, carrying heavy ords, maneuver options greatly reduced by that sloped ground in front of them vs one faster and better turning plane screaming down at 450mph... :D
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Good idea.
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Originally posted by Lusche
6 cons (mostly Jugs) at 10k, but still only 500ft above ground level (trying to get over that mountain), 200mph, carrying heavy ords, maneuver options greatly reduced by that sloped ground in front of them vs one faster and better turning plane screaming down at 450mph... :D
Let's not confuse good odds with good judgement. :D
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If the code can distinguish between an actual unfair fight and this... (http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1551/ahfilm2007100622292196gu9.jpg)
then I'd vote for it.
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Hmm, so I vulch the screenshot above and I get 30X the regular points?;)
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As far as I'm concerned the 'oddball' scenarios are irrelevent. What is common is the con who simply refuses to engage in an even fight. What is common is 5+ vs 1 engagments.
What set me off is that last night, I egressed the furball upon spotting 8+ 15k cons comming in. Four pursuied me. I dragged them over 1/2 a sector until 2 of them pealed off out of con range. I turn to engage 2v1 and in no time, the other two come back from outside of con range...4v1, all 4 tried to HO, situation normal. Again I egress and two enemies give up. Let me make this point very clear...the fight is now 2v1 over 20 miles behind friendly lines, over 50 miles from the nearest enemy airfield. So I re-engage 2v1 again. Guess what? Two different enemy fighters come in. They had absolutely no reason to be out in the middle of nowhere. They had to be alerted to the location by the original pursuiers. What is up with that? Calling in 'help' on an already 2vs1, or "hunting"? Don't matter because either way it was some of the lamest game play I have ever seen in AH. And overall, it is back to nobody wants to engage in actual combat, but rather is out looking for a free kill where there is little risk.
The fact is, it all pays the same no matter what the tactical scenario is. More and more AH is being populated by pure gamers rather than flight sim enthuseist. I say hit the 'game the gamers' and 'teamplay' in their score. For those who just want combat for their gameplay, this will have little effect, but for those whos modius operendi is to run run run from any unoccupied enemy, and attack only occupied enemy, it will have an effect.
Potentially what I suggested would have a huge impact on the points vs enemy accumulation, but that is still only 20% of fighter rank, and 10% of attack and vehicle rank. Net effect is, you'll have to do double or more times the work to accumulate rank points if you are a player who's bread and butter is avoiding an actual 'fight' at all costs.
And again 101 scenerios where this is "not fair" is irrelevent. What is relevent is not rewarding poor gameplay.
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Originally posted by Murdr
As far as I'm concerned the 'oddball' scenarios are irrelevent. What is common is the con who simply refuses to engage in an even fight. What is common is 5+ vs 1 engagments.
What set me off is that last night, I egressed the furball upon spotting 8+ 15k cons comming in. Four pursuied me. I dragged them over 1/2 a sector until 2 of them pealed off out of con range. I turn to engage 2v1 and in no time, the other two come back from outside of con range...4v1, all 4 tried to HO, situation normal. Again I egress and two enemies give up. Let me make this point very clear...the fight is now 2v1 over 20 miles behind friendly lines, over 50 miles from the nearest enemy airfield. So I re-engage 2v1 again. Guess what? Two different enemy fighters come in. They had absolutely no reason to be out in the middle of nowhere. They had to be alerted to the location by the original pursuiers. What is up with that? Calling in 'help' on an already 2vs1, or "hunting"? Don't matter because either way it was some of the lamest game play I have ever seen in AH. And overall, it is back to nobody wants to engage in actual combat, but rather is out looking for a free kill where there is little risk.
The fact is, it all pays the same no matter what the tactical scenario is. More and more AH is being populated by pure gamers rather than flight sim enthuseist. I say hit the 'game the gamers' and 'teamplay' in their score. For those who just want combat for their gameplay, this will have little effect, but for those whos modius operendi is to run run run from any unoccupied enemy, and attack only occupied enemy, it will have an effect.
Potentially what I suggested would have a huge impact on the points vs enemy accumulation, but that is still only 20% of fighter rank, and 10% of attack and vehicle rank. Net effect is, you'll have to do double or more times the work to accumulate rank points if you are a player who's bread and butter is avoiding an actual 'fight' at all costs.
And again 101 scenerios where this is "not fair" is irrelevent. What is relevent is not rewarding poor gameplay.
Try out Mid-war some time. The low population usually stops the mass 5 on ones. The planes are fairly balanced, you don't have a ton of La-7's, Tempest, and Spit 16's running around try to HO you. I actually find a lot of good 1v1 fights. Theres still 2v1 and such, but I can't blame people for having a wingman, so long as it's no more then 1. Anything past that is just gang-banging.
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No offence, but I think I might have figured out how to find a fight over the last 12 years flying online.
My point is a heads up to the office on the current game culture, and an idea regarding its managment.
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Murder its a cultural thing, we "grew up" in the game at a time when you measured yourself (and were measured) by both your conduct and the merits of your skills in both individual and small group combat. As a lesser stick it was fine to join in vs an "ace" in a 2 on 1...he gained "respect" by winning and you gained skill by fighting. If and when you reached a level of ability you simply accepted that your increased "Status" forced you to sit out a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 vs another good stick. In fact pilots usually announced themselfs so "proper" conduct could be observed...
Anyone serious about the game knew the rules and the pecking order. The goal for most of us was to move up the ladder in our own "informal" ranking. Now we have a lot of quaketards among even the skilled pilots. "pwning" someone is more important then meeting them even up and prevailing...
Simply the sad reality....
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12 years? I looked at your score the other night- it might as well just say "noob".
;) Sorry, couldn't resist.
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go with it
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I actually like this idea, but I don't pretend to know how difficult this would be to program. Perhaps not that hard, simply count planes within range Xk, at the moment the kill message is sent?
Even at a disadvantage of alt/speed, 6 to 1 is really good odds, I don't care who you are.
It would depend on how the hit scoring is coded in the game like you mentioned.. If you look at most other MMO's, they have a feature like this implimented in their games. If you are in a group and attack an NPC, the one that deals the most damage is the one that receives the most experience and the others are given experience by damaged caused to the NPC.
But will this really cut down on the gang bangs? I don't think it will, it will generate a lot of whines from the score potatos that's for sure and that is never a bad thing. The problem is the new culture of the game as Murdr describes and it's no longer about us that got into this game for the love of Warbirds and aerial combat. It has turned into "Air Quake" and the instant gratification of the kill no matter how it's achieved.
The other day in the Mid-War arena, I encountered 2 high Knits. One was in a Hurricane IIc, the other in a F6F both flying at 15,000ft while I was at 8,000ft. I started to spiral climb up to them and got within icon range and leveled out at 12,000ft to gain speed. As I got closer to them on the intercept course I had set, both Knits turned away from me and started to climb even higher. By the time I got to 18,000ft, both Knights were already close to 25,000ft and still climbing away. I gave up the chase and turned back to some bogies I spotted on radar and decided to go after those instead. Sure enough, as I went to engage the other two Knights, the two that continued to climb away from me came back and dove into an already 2v1 fight with their typical HO cherry pick attempts. That's the prevailant mentality in the arenas.
ack-ack
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That hadn't occured to me, Akak, but that's a good blue print to start with.
Let's be honest though- this isn't going to happen, or even be considered, while HTC is making more money than ever. It's nothing more than an interesting discussion for us. That would make me angry, but I probably get more entertainment from the forums than the game these days.
Gah, happy thoughts, setting noobs on fire, killing chutes, reading the Aircraft/Vehicle threads.
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Not that ganging could, or even should be eliminated...Heck, I will dive in and pop a single enemy with 5 friendlies already on them for the simple fact that I want those 5 friendlies grabbing altitude so I am not the single, highest prime target when the next wave arrives.
There are however, and always has been the gang dweebs we've described who only fly that way. Plus there are the wIn tEh WaR! types, who do the same for different motives.
I'd just like to see a token equation in the score system that hints that AH is about simulating combat between accurately modeled planes and vehicles, and not a war simulation. Combat being the key word, as those looking only for a risk free kill are not at all interested in "combat".
The fact that 'gamers' aready bend over backwards to game the scoring system with something like this is an added bonus. Those actually worrying about score and rank, would quickly learn it pays to be the disadvantaged rather than the ganger. Might help some to have that group of players looking for combat also....Dunno, it was the only thing I could come up with.
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Originally posted by Murdr
(# of enemy in proximity/# of friendlies within proximity)=ProxyMod
ProxyMod*DamageVsEny=Damage vs Eny points logged for incident
and...
ProxyMod*DamageVsEny=Perk points logged for incident
Seriously! Im sick of the "war game"/"overwhelming force"/"teamplay" mentality of some sects in the game. Mind you, not the normal Murphies Law of gameplay, but the guys who think AH is about calling the whole squad in on one lone enemy.
The guy in a 4v1 should get x4 points for damaging enemy planes, and the 4 hero's attacking the lone enemy should get x0.25 points.
Coordinated local ganging is going to ruin gameplay regardless of "ENY" (country balancer). At least make so the score whordes make less score progress for regularly not fighting without an outragous advantage.
something of this nature has been seriously needed for too long....
I'll sign the petition sheet!!!
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There's points?
(On sabatical)
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"Two different enemy fighters come in. They had absolutely no reason to be out in the middle of nowhere. They had to be alerted to the location by the original pursuiers. What is up with that? Calling in 'help' on an already 2vs1, or "hunting"?"
I can see me as one of the second set of fighters that shows up. But I wouldn't be there for the gang or even if they called for help. A lot of times I find myself flying towards the green dots on the map (friendlies) when there is no radar available to me because that's where I expect the fight to be. Once I saw the situation I would try to find my targets elsewhere.
I think Humble's avatar sums the MA mentality up pretty well. Not like AW where people would take a number to get a crack at ya. The idea of what you're trying to accomplish is noble but even with the multipliers you're talking about, the gamers will still go for the EZ kill because it's simply in their nature. I think, at best, that 4 on 1 becomes a 3 on 1. It would, however, be a little more gratifying to have those extra couple points in your pocket for fighting the good fight. Hell, it might even encourage some of your team mates to help rather than bug out and leave you for dead. Earlier tonight I got myself in a turn fight with 3 f4u-1ds while in my jug. All three had alt. I made one auger (my fav way to get a kill) and took #2s wing off 1/2 sec before #3 got me. Would've been nice to have a couple extra points in the bank for that one, especially since the all started higher than me. I haven't been the Ma for that long but the gang mentality seems to be a function of the sheer size of the community. There are so many pilots out there that don't know each other (even on your own side) you get stuff like a giant gang chasing one plane even though there are pleny of targets in the area. What gets me more than gangs is guys on my own team pluggin planes as they spiral out of the sky. It's one thing to disrespect your enemy, it's completly different to do it to your own team.
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From http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219874#post2644745
I agree that there is no way to make a perfect scoring system, the concept that I am thinking about makes it more fair and more accurate in representing the actual skills that should be valued in a combat oriented game (notice I did not say combat simulator).
The second point you make (in my mind) is self-correcting.
I don't think it would be hard to 'coad' at all, a simple multiple inversely proportional to the nme rank applied to the score of killing the nme (maybe adding in the eny imbalance of the planes)
I have trouble expressing mathematical concepts in English.
killpoints=int((myrank/nmerank)+(nme_eny/my_eny))
Hell, we could even throw in a factor to account for hording by counting the number_of_friendlies/number_of_nmes within icon range @ time of kill, i.e. less points for your kill if there are ten of you and one of them within icon range (or some other settable distance like 3K). That could conceivably promote fair fights, i.e. 1v1 and even increase your kill points if you are in a bad tactical situation and get a kill.
so
killpoints =int(modfactor1(myrank/nmerank)+modfactor2(my_eny/nme_eny)+modfactor3(nbr_nme/nbr_friendly)
I think we're beginning to skirt a conceptual area where people will start complaining that it is 'forcing people to play a certain way'. I would argue that it instead rewards a style of play that espouses skills such as plane mastery (i.e. eny imbalance modifiers), ACM, and SA instead of other tactics such as alt-monkey/cherrypicking, hording and other forms of unbalancing gameplay.
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I guess I could clearify the points vs enemy stat. If you do any damage whatsoever to an enemy, you get damage points for it. Being awarded the kill has no effect on that stat. The fact of getting the kill award just means you scored more damage points on that enemy than anyone else. The actual amount of points you are awarded is not tallied on your stats until that sortie is ended because the DeathMult needs applied first.
[(DamagePointsScoredOnEnemiesTh isSortie * DeathMult) +
TotalTourPlaneDamageScoredOnE nemies]
Originally posted by LilMak
[BI can see me as one of the second set of fighters that shows up.... [/B]
Understood, in this case though, you would have had overfly the furball by 20 miles to be out in the middle of nowhere and happen upon this.
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In reply to the deleted post....
That is exactly what it would acomplish. People would start looking for ways to game it, hence it would promote fighting even or worse odds, rather than the rampant avoiding fighting, to only engage for a risk free kill.
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hey murdr, i deleted the post because i posted to what i thought the thread meant and reread the first post and got a different interpretation, hence deleting to keep from being called a retard
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That's cool Gowan, I just happened to try to reply to you seconds after it was deleted :)
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lol
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Murdr, I see this thread only now, due to a link you posted elsewhere....
I totally embrace your idea, let's lobby for it!
(Although it's so fun to fight 1 vs many! :D)
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I like this idea a lot. It places the emphasis on pilot skill and not on how big a gang you are in.
HTC have attempted to modify the way people fly before by using score incentives like using ENY to promote side switching to the outnumbered side. However the overall numbers a side has isn't really the point, its how many concentrate in one spot. While concentration of force is a sound military tactic, it isn't much fun for either side to be in a totally one sided fight.
I often log onto an arena and find one huge red darbar at one spot on the frontline and nothing to fight elsewhere. Go anywhere near the horde and you'll find yourself dogpiled in no time.
If this idea was implemented I reckon you'd see a slight shift away from hording. The nature of the field capture game means it would still go on. However those more interested in their rank would now have an incentive to go elsewhere.
There would be more small pockets of activity further down the frontline, so everyone would be more likely to find the type of fight they like.
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Thx for the bump. Wish I would have thought to slip this topic in the conversation when I was talking to someone earlier today lol.
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Quick! Find an excuse and call him again! :lol
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Murdr, did you get a chance to read my old thread (that I linked to earlier) regarding this and a couple of other ideas?
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Yea, sorry. I think I was replying to your post awhile back, got interrupted, and never posted.
The rank thing might be fun, but then again many of the best sticks rarely pay any attention to rank.
The reason I jumped straight to proximity range as a factor is that on the large maps (& ndilse) it's not too unusual for the country with the most numbers having to fight local hording situations on the flanks. Really the only time I have a problem with ENY is when I am fighting off in a corner of the map for hours, we get locally out numbered, but are still ENY limited.
ENY was to address the macro problem of one country consistantly fielding more pilots than the other two combined during prime time. Perk points and plane selection are already affected by country balance. I doubt adding points vs enemy to the list would change the country balance issue much.
Obviously I think modfactor3 is a great idea ;)
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if it is a vote thing, i vote yes!
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Originally posted by Murdr
As far as I'm concerned the 'oddball' scenarios are irrelevent. What is common is the con who simply refuses to engage in an even fight. What is common is 5+ vs 1 engagments.
What set me off is that last night, I egressed the furball upon spotting 8+ 15k cons comming in. Four pursuied me. I dragged them over 1/2 a sector until 2 of them pealed off out of con range. I turn to engage 2v1 and in no time, the other two come back from outside of con range...4v1, all 4 tried to HO, situation normal. Again I egress and two enemies give up. Let me make this point very clear...the fight is now 2v1 over 20 miles behind friendly lines, over 50 miles from the nearest enemy airfield. So I re-engage 2v1 again. Guess what? Two different enemy fighters come in. They had absolutely no reason to be out in the middle of nowhere. They had to be alerted to the location by the original pursuiers. What is up with that? Calling in 'help' on an already 2vs1, or "hunting"? Don't matter because either way it was some of the lamest game play I have ever seen in AH. And overall, it is back to nobody wants to engage in actual combat, but rather is out looking for a free kill where there is little risk.
The fact is, it all pays the same no matter what the tactical scenario is. More and more AH is being populated by pure gamers rather than flight sim enthuseist. I say hit the 'game the gamers' and 'teamplay' in their score. For those who just want combat for their gameplay, this will have little effect, but for those whos modius operendi is to run run run from any unoccupied enemy, and attack only occupied enemy, it will have an effect.
Potentially what I suggested would have a huge impact on the points vs enemy accumulation, but that is still only 20% of fighter rank, and 10% of attack and vehicle rank. Net effect is, you'll have to do double or more times the work to accumulate rank points if you are a player who's bread and butter is avoiding an actual 'fight' at all costs.
And again 101 scenerios where this is "not fair" is irrelevent. What is relevent is not rewarding poor gameplay.
this is the best reason to have H2H arenas with a two squad (46) player ceiling, then the one who opens the arena can boot whoever doesn't follow arena guidelines, then you can set the arena up anyway you want to.
I would pay an additional fee for this option. And the dweebie crap can stay in the MA's.
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Originally posted by yanksfan
this is the best reason to have H2H arenas with a two squad (46) player ceiling, then the one who opens the arena can boot whoever doesn't follow arena guidelines, then you can set the arena up anyway you want to.
I would pay an additional fee for this option. And the dweebie crap can stay in the MA's.
What you suggest is just to shut your home's door to keep the rotting world outside and say "who cares, I have my own playground".
Having H2H-like rooms won't do any good to the game, it'll just make happy the people that has similar way of playing the game. What Murdr is suggesting is to balance again the gameplay in MAs, where it is needed... if you leave MAs in the hand of the horde and run-fighters, just happy to have your own private little world to play in, this game will die. We need to bring the fights back in MAs. That's the truth.
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I don't care what Gianlupo has to say, it just makes me happy when he posts. I'm not sure why.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
What you suggest is just to shut your home's door to keep the rotting world outside and say "who cares, I have my own playground".
Having H2H-like rooms won't do any good to the game, it'll just make happy the people that has similar way of playing the game. What Murdr is suggesting is to balance again the gameplay in MAs, where it is needed... if you leave MAs in the hand of the horde and run-fighters, just happy to have your own private little world to play in, this game will die. We need to bring the fights back in MAs. That's the truth.
Ok, good luck with that:aok
Can I have my head to head rooms with up to 46 player limits full control of arenas and a compass in the stock?:D
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Thanks. What do you need the compass for? You already have it in each plane.... :confused:
Originally posted by scottydawg
I don't care what Gianlupo has to say, it just makes me happy when he posts. I'm not sure why.
I don't know if I have to be glad or offended.... maybe it's time for a new avatar.... :D
(http://articolo2.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/suora.jpg)
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Thanks. What do you need the compass for? You already have it in each plane.... :confused:
Your supposed to say:
"you'll shoot your eye out kid" Ya blew your line!
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
I don't know if I have to be glad or offended.... maybe it's time for a new avatar.... :D
(http://articolo2.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/suora.jpg)
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc284/scottbrawner/threadbombs/darth_vader_nooo1.jpg)
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Originally posted by scottydawg
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc284/scottbrawner/threadbombs/darth_vader_nooo1.jpg)
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Originally posted by yanksfan
Your supposed to say:
"you'll shoot your eye out kid" Ya blew your line!
Hey! Have you seen where I'm from??? It's hard enough for me to understand what you guys mean when you speak plain english, go figure when you use jargon or weird sayings.... :mad: :furious :cry
:D