Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Benny Moore on December 14, 2007, 11:22:05 AM
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I respectfully propose that Hitech consider offerring the ability to pay a one-time fee, like that for standard games, for a key to unlock the ability for players to directly host an eight player (or perhaps sixteen player) server. Other players could join directly by I.P.
No bandwidth, policing, or any other regular effort (other than selling the keys) would be required on Hitech's part. There wouldn't even be a matchmaking system. The only effort needed at all would be to slightly retool the G.U.I. to include the options of joining by I.P. and entering the key.
This would replace the defunct free head-to-head feature; Hitech would no longer have to host the matchmaking service or police the free multiplayer section, and would also gain revenue from people who would otherwise not pay at all.
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the DA furball area is the new 8player
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It's neither free nor is there a one-time fee for it. It requires the same monthly fee as the other massive servers which Hitech hosts. And players cannot host it.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
... And players cannot host it.
And there lies the reason you will not see this. That was the root of the whole problem.
LAN play still exists. Buy yourself a VPN capable router (there is your one-time fee) configure it for incomming VPN and tell your friends how to connect. Most routers can use the Microsoft VPN configuration to connect. Now you have your 8 player back.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
And there lies the reason you will not see this. That was the root of the whole problem.
No, it wasn't. That was a different scenario; while players did host the actual servers, they were public servers on Hitech's matchmaking system. The problem was that Hitech felt responsible for what happened on these servers because they used Hitech's matchmaking service and relied on Hitech for policing. Also, part of the problem was that no one paid anything.
My suggestion is for private servers where the players only can connect if you give them your I.P. address. Since people would pay a one-time fee for this, this negates entirely the previous problem. It would, in short, offer the option of making Aces High II work exactly like the average boxed game with multiplayer.
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Er, no... The problem is not that HTC "felt responsible" but that the HTH system as a WHOLE was being used for a breeding ground of discontent and a hacker testing ground.
For that reason alone you will not see it come back. Forget all the other nonsense. Hackers would pay a 1-time fee gladly to keep testing their latest versions, just like you would to avoid paying a subscription.
I didn't used to sound so harsh, but "just pay the sub!" and have done with it. It's $15 a month, and for anybody with a part-time job it's doable, even under the heaviest stack of bills.
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Rich46yo mentioned that he would pay for all of our accounts for the 2008 gaming year. Thanks Rich46yo....we appreciate your generosity:aok
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Need for speed is an entire series of race car games that are hacked beyond belief, and you can play them online with friends and on dedicated servers just like AH.
MCO was one version of that game which did not have the ability to host your own games and was only available online.
Didn't get hacked.
Oddly enough, a dedicated system like that had important files that were on the server alone that could not be modified.
H2H can be modified, therefore invited all kinds of people to mess with things.
Can't do that in the mains as it's a different ball game in there. You aren't going to be told how it's different, or why it works the way it does.
The single best thing HTC did to protect their system is to keep the ability to modify the primary game out of the hands of the little tinker twits.
Why on earth would they open up their system to these kiddies for a few extra bucks a month? It's not about the pay, it's about security of their system.
Benny, you seem like a nice enough guy, but you don't know what you are talking about. Go download a free virtual lan program, host the game yourself and you charge people to access it. Then, when you get your system fried feel free to come back and tell HTC all about how to protect it :)
You can host a lan, HTC doesn't need to. You can do it for free. Go do it.
in short, offer the option of making Aces High II work exactly like the average boxed game with multiplayer.
To my original point, this is Exactly, Specifically and without a doubt what needs to be avoided. Sorry, Quake is 2 doors down on the left.
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Originally posted by ROC
Need for speed is an entire series of race car games that are hacked beyond belief, and you can play them online with friends and on dedicated servers just like AH.
MCO was one version of that game which did not have the ability to host your own games and was only available online.
Didn't get hacked.
Oddly enough, a dedicated system like that had important files that were on the server alone that could not be modified.
H2H can be modified, therefore invited all kinds of people to mess with things.
Can't do that in the mains as it's a different ball game in there. You aren't going to be told how it's different, or why it works the way it does.
The single best thing HTC did to protect their system is to keep the ability to modify the primary game out of the hands of the little tinker twits.
Why on earth would they open up their system to these kiddies for a few extra bucks a month? It's not about the pay, it's about security of their system.
Benny, you seem like a nice enough guy, but you don't know what you are talking about. Go download a free virtual lan program, host the game yourself and you charge people to access it. Then, when you get your system fried feel free to come back and tell HTC all about how to protect it :)
You can host a lan, HTC doesn't need to. You can do it for free. Go do it.
To my original point, this is Exactly, Specifically and without a doubt what needs to be avoided. Sorry, Quake is 2 doors down on the left.
I agree with ROC. This is why I gave up Delta force 1, 2, Landwarrior, Halo 1 & 2, and quite a few other games online. Cheats! I say do not open up one of the cheatingest-free (new word) games out there to folks who will rework code and screw with the play in the MA's.
Oink
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I'm not asking for Hitech to host anything. I'm slightly confused here. It's like some people are skimming my posts.
Originally posted by ROC
Go download a free virtual lan program, host the game yourself [...] You can host a lan, HTC doesn't need to. You can do it for free. Go do it.
First, I have no clue how to do that. Second, I highly doubt if it's allowed. I don't remember what exactly was in the E.U.L.A. but I'll bet there's something about it in there.
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Benny,
If you enjoy the game so much then just pony up the $15 a month. We would love to fly aginst you in the MA's
<>
Spazz
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"Will you please give me your sole source of income, and accept only a token fee from me, instead of the $180 a year that everyone else pays? I like your product, but I don't want to pay you for it, especially if you're stupid enough to give it to us for next to nothing."
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
First, I have no clue how to do that. Second, I highly doubt if it's allowed. I don't remember what exactly was in the E.U.L.A. but I'll bet there's something about it in there.
R.T.F.M. Hey, you just might learn something useful.
TOS:
This is the only thing I could find that might cover this.
--snip--
Authorized Hosts. For host-based multiplayer services, the SOFTWARE must be used only to connect to authorized hosts. You are not permitted to use the SOFTWARE to connect to hosts that have not been authorized by HiTech Creations.
--/snip--
If you are running it on a private VPN then it's private. Only those you invite can use it. No different than inviting them into your home to play over a LAN.
If you like I will charge you a 1 time fee to set this up for you. I estimate that with initial setup and testing it will take about 3 hours to setup. At my usual rate of $120.00/hr this will only cost you $360.00.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
"Will you please give me your sole source of income, and accept only a token fee from me, instead of the $180 a year that everyone else pays? I like your product, but I don't want to pay you for it, especially if you're stupid enough to give it to us for next to nothing."
That's hardly fair to me. It's far from a "token fee;" it's the standard price of a game today. And I'm only asking for a limited version of the game which will cost Hitech nothing other than the time it took to create the game. In other words, just like normal games. Frankly, pay-to-play is nigh robbery. It's like an author demanding payment for his book every time you read it. The only thing that can come close to justifying pay-to-play is server costs, which would be negated if my idea were implemented. But it's clear that it won't be, so I guess I'm wasting my time here.
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What do you need 8 player mode so badly? ....geez the whole game is $15 a month? .....if you cant afford it get a part time job .....8 player mode is joke. I would be bored out of my mind fighting the same 7 people all the time.
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Not fair to you? On the contrary, you freeloaders were able to enjoy the game as long as you did only because the MA customers paid for it, and now you've got the nerve to say it's comparable to robbery, and that you should get a discount version because you're cheap? That would be amusing, if you weren't so earnest about it.
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Benny, it's only "like an author demanding payment for his book everytime you read it" if you are reading said book in the authors house, while using his Lazyboy chair and propping your feet up on his coffee table.
We play this game in Hitechs house. On his servers.
Anyway, you are allowed lan Play for free, which means you get the complete game for free. What more do you want??
RTR
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That does it. You fruitcakes aren't even reading my posts, and the last two posts are proof. For the last time, my suggestion meant that Hitech would not, in fact, be hosting anything for this category of players.
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Part of my comment was because of this statement by you:
Frankly, pay-to-play is nigh robbery. It's like an author demanding payment for his book every time you read it.
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Now as far as being able to have 8 players set up on a Lan network, is this not possible?
I always thought it was.
Oh and by the way, this BBS is also in Hitech's house. So get your feet off of the coffe table. Were you born in a barn or something?
:D
RTR
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You've made your idea very clear. It just doesn't seem to have any benefits for anyone but you.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
That does it. You fruitcakes aren't even reading my posts, and the last two posts are proof. For the last time, my suggestion meant that Hitech would not, in fact, be hosting anything for this category of players.
Come on Benny ... think about it. Your emotions are clouding your thinking.
You purchase under your idea ... you then setup a 8 player room. No involvement by HTC hardware-wise, no physical connection to HTC, and you hold the keys to entry.
Then you get the great idea that YOU will charge players to enter your room ... don't say no ... you might not, but in a nano-second ... others would.
You have now just taken money off HiTech's table and inserted it into your pocket ... and for what ? ... your initial one time payout of a measly $30-40 ... All the years of development, proprietary software algorythms, and patents and he is going to hand it over to the public ... over the intenet. I think not.
Don't come back with the ... "Well HiTech could write up some clause and prosecute under those conditions."
I would probably be safe in saying that the amount of money that he would get from people like you would not even come close to the amounts of money that he would need to spend to protect his software and/or try to prosecute those who would violate any TOS that he could draft.
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Why is this not a problem in the many thousands of traditionally bought games? Why would it be different with this one? You claim that people would try to charge to play (how?), yet you don't see Quake, Half-Life, or Halo servers with people trying to charge to play.
The fact is that there is a possibility that, along with the current system of pay-to-play on large servers hosted by Hitech, the game could also be treated as a standard boxed game. You buy the game, you host your own small servers, no monthly fee and no cost to Hitech. I don't get the problem here.
People like me cannot and will not pay-to-play regardless. With this idea implemented, Hitech would gain revenue with no additional effort or cost, and people like me would get to play. No one loses (except that a few main arena players would be angry that other people get limited gameplay at a reduced cost).
You main arena players have always been exceedingly bitter that Hitech offered free limited play as advertisement. I've never seen such dog-in-the-manger mentality. And no, you did not pay for head-to-head. It paid for itself; it was advertisement. The bandwidth cost was almost non-existent, since players hosted. And now you are angry at the suggestion that Aces High II be sold as a normal game.
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Your not gettting H2H back so stop whining about it. If you cant/wont pay $15 a month then go back to playing halo with the rest of the squeakers.
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You said paying for AH was nigh on highway robbery.
Fine. Don't pay. That's your choice. It's beside the point that it's worth the subscription. Stop trying to form an ever-changing argument just to get what you want, because for so many reasons (many already stated) it's not going to happen.
Oh, P.S. The games you listed -- they are built to allow folks to change them. HL, HL2, Quake, etc... They all have mods that can be put on their servers.
They're also rampant with cheaters.
P.P.S. You pay for a book once, but you re-read it and it's exactly the same every time. I can fight the same person in the same plane setup in the same situation over and over and NEVER have the same fight twice. Not even a remote comparison.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Oh, P.S. The games you listed -- they are built to allow folks to change them. HL, HL2, Quake, etc... They all have mods that can be put on their servers.
They're also rampant with cheaters.
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i have those games and for that reason i do not play over the internet,
when i buy a normal "boxed game" i never expect to use the multiplayer
the only one i ever used was diablo 1 and starcraft. and yes they were hacked but still fun.
then i found ah...
if i buy any more games its just gonna be for the single player mode i love rpg's anyway and i have yet to see a good one for multiplayer (warcraft aint my thing)
therefore ah is gonna be my multiplayer game.
and yes its well worth the money i pay even though i die constantly.
i wish i could donate to the "get benny onlie fund" but i couldnt afford that lol
miss flyin with you man.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Why is this not a problem in the many thousands of traditionally bought games? Why would it be different with this one? You claim that people would try to charge to play (how?), yet you don't see Quake, Half-Life, or Halo servers with people trying to charge to play.
The fact is that there is a possibility that, along with the current system of pay-to-play on large servers hosted by Hitech, the game could also be treated as a standard boxed game. You buy the game, you host your own small servers, no monthly fee and no cost to Hitech. I don't get the problem here.
People like me cannot and will not pay-to-play regardless. With this idea implemented, Hitech would gain revenue with no additional effort or cost, and people like me would get to play. No one loses (except that a few main arena players would be angry that other people get limited gameplay at a reduced cost).
You main arena players have always been exceedingly bitter that Hitech offered free limited play as advertisement. I've never seen such dog-in-the-manger mentality. And no, you did not pay for head-to-head. It paid for itself; it was advertisement. The bandwidth cost was almost non-existent, since players hosted. And now you are angry at the suggestion that Aces High II be sold as a normal game.
Benny, what part of this are you not getting?
I don't think we "ub3r l33t MA d00ds" (sic) are offended by the 2 week trial. We weren't even offended by the H2H arenas, some of us even used them from time to time.
The issue that led to the close of the H2H arenas is the same one that is preventing that for which you are asking. It's is the very same art you see being practised in almost every other boxed online multiplayer game there is. They get hacked. Sure if you want to see people flying around with their own coded mods providing shields for their aircraft, and weapons that do 100x normal damage in your arenas then it's the way to go. We who happen to like a more realistic scenario are more than happy to pay the monthly subscription. Go wash a few cars a month and you have it covered. Don't expect HTC to open up their work to the hackers to compensate for your laziness.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
People like me cannot and will not pay-to-play regardless.
This same mentality keeps me from driving a brand new 'vette. You will never see me whining about that, however. We work for money, and we trade money for services and goods. There is no point to giving things away to people who will never return the favor.
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Hitech would gain revenue with no additional effort or cost, and people like me would get to play. No one loses (except that a few main arena players would be angry that other people get limited gameplay at a reduced cost).
No, HiTech would lose money. Instead of $15 a month for years, he would get $30 or $40 once. No one loses, except HiTech, who fails to gain additional regular income, and whose reputation will be ruined when the game is hacked rampantly hosted on Benny's magical free server.
Originally posted by Benny Moore
. And no, you did not pay for head-to-head. It paid for itself; it was advertisement. The bandwidth cost was almost non-existent, since players hosted. And now you are angry at the suggestion that Aces High II be sold as a normal game.
You got the same software we did, and you never paid a cent for it. At this point, in subscription fees alone, I've invested, ugh, probably $800 to $1000. I'm not angry at the suggestion that it be sold as a normal game (even though it's a horrible idea, IMO) I'm offended that you're whining about your cost (which at this point is $0) being "nigh on robbery".
Without the many thousands of players who've invested in HiTech Creations, Inc., you'd have never played this game for free for so long. Unless the staff at HTC were independently wealthy when they started HTC, they require income to operate. So yes, we paid for H2H, the SEA, the MAs, the AvA, the DA, the TA. We paid for everything, in a sense. Those who didn't pay initially, invested their time, and effort into helping get the beta sorted out. Those who subscribed early paid twice what I do. Those who are compensated invested with their skins, their sounds, their terrains, etc etc- all work, all time, all resources that are expensive. I pay, they work, but we're all supporting HTC.
This is how the world works. I don't know what your situation is, or why you can afford boxed games, a computer, an internet connection, but not $15 a month. Your have a poor attitude in general, and your refusal to acknowledge the obvious, accept it, or even be reasonable in discussing the matter is patently offensive.
Good day.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
The fact is that there is a possibility that, along with the current system of pay-to-play on large servers hosted by Hitech, the game could also be treated as a standard boxed game. You buy the game, you host your own small servers, no monthly fee and no cost to Hitech. I don't get the problem here.
Because you can't see further then the end of your nose.
All you ask will result in increased costs for HTC, none of which would be recouped through sales and would result in a gross/net profit loss for them. It costs money to press the CD/DVDs, it costs money to market them, it costs money to distribute the game, it costs money to manufacture the boxes. Money that would most likely have to be recouped by increasing the subscription price because they aren't going to be making enough money selling this as boxed game to break even.
But you don't see that because after all, it's not your money.
ack-ack
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Every single one of your insipid insinuations, Hubsonfire, is false. But then you know that already.
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On the contrary, we've already seen what happens when HTC gives their product away.
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No
Paying $15/month for a subscription is good enough.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
On the contrary, we've already seen what happens when HTC gives their product away.
Honestly, it's just a waste of time trying to remove the blinders Benny has welded to his eyes. He'll never understand that it's not really viable due to the costs associated with making a boxed game no matter how we explain it to him. He doesn't care that his idea isn't financially a smart move on HTC's part. Nor does he care that HTC would most likely have to raise our subscription prices to recoup the money lost because as I mentioned in a previous post, it costs money to manufacture, market and distribute a boxed game. No, Benny only cares about Benny, screw the thousands of paid subscribers to this game. As long as wittle Benny gets his wittle boxed game...
He'll continue to whine and pout even though there have been quite a few posts on how to get AH H2H running on a virtual LAN server. Despite the advice he refuses to do that, probably because the technical complexity is far to great for him to grasp or maybe he just is lazy and wants others to do the work for him while he reaps the benefits.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Why is this not a problem in the many thousands of traditionally bought games? Why would it be different with this one? You claim that people would try to charge to play (how?), yet you don't see Quake, Half-Life, or Halo servers with people trying to charge to play.
The fact is that there is a possibility that, along with the current system of pay-to-play on large servers hosted by Hitech, the game could also be treated as a standard boxed game. You buy the game, you host your own small servers, no monthly fee and no cost to Hitech. I don't get the problem here.
People like me cannot and will not pay-to-play regardless. With this idea implemented, Hitech would gain revenue with no additional effort or cost, and people like me would get to play. No one loses (except that a few main arena players would be angry that other people get limited gameplay at a reduced cost).
You main arena players have always been exceedingly bitter that Hitech offered free limited play as advertisement. I've never seen such dog-in-the-manger mentality. And no, you did not pay for head-to-head. It paid for itself; it was advertisement. The bandwidth cost was almost non-existent, since players hosted. And now you are angry at the suggestion that Aces High II be sold as a normal game.
Frankly I have never seen talk in the MA about the freeloaders till you
guys peed in your own pool, then insisted that HTC owed you another
chance.
If you don't like HTC's policies, feel free to squeak out your own
flight sim and do with it what you will. Expecting paying customers to have
any sympathy for someone who won't fork up 50 cents a day is madness.
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h2h is like the kiddie pool at the park. Its fine when your 3, if the company can afford to take the risks involved. Once it becomes obvious that its being abused its going to get shut down. And once your 6 you need to screw up your nerves and go dive into the big pool anyway.
And before you slam me I started in the H2H world and Defts ladder in Warbirds back in 96. I flew all H2H for over a year. Then started flying online in free beta's,
etc.
However its become obvious that there is no way to provide that service that does not entail it becoming a huge security threat for HTC and the Main servers.
H2H as you knew it is dead and will stay dead.
If you really want to fly, jump into the big pool and learn to swim!
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
People like me cannot and will not pay-to-play regardless.
That tells it all ... along with the "nigh on robbery" statement.
It's not that you can't afford it ... your a fuggin' cheapskate and with cheapskates ... there is no talking "cents" with them.
You could be a millionaire but ... will not pay-to-play regardless. The sign of a true cheapskate.
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Originally posted by Krusty
It's $15 a month, and for anybody with a part-time job it's doable, even under the heaviest stack of bills.
If only that were true Krusty. I haven't been in game for nearly 2 months because the $15 is needed elsewhere.
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while reading this i heard you can make your own lan server? can someone link me to this? danke
P.S. Benny shush and be quiet before i stick a potato shaped bomb in your tail pipe, unfortunately your so cheap you chose not to buy your own mortality....
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There are a multitude of ways to come up with another $15/month. Anyone who says they can't, only translates into A) The wife won't let me, B) Mom and Dad won't pay for it, or C) My credit sucks and I don't have one single credit card to use.
$15/ month = $0.50/day. Here is a small list to scape that pile of money together. Use any combo you like.
A) Make coffee and take it to work, don't buy it at the circle "K" on the way to work.
B) Flush the toilet 1 or 2 times less/day or put something in the tank to take up space so you use less per flush.
C) Cut 5 minutes to 10 minutes off your shower time, shut off the water when lathering
D) Don't let the water run when you brush your teeth.
E) Pack your lunch.
F) Turning down the thermostat by just 2-3 degrees can almost save $5- $10 a month.
G) Buy cheaper beer or brew your own (I find that method more satisfying anyway) or recycle your aluminum.
H) Use cruise control, don't drive over 55mph, walk anywhere less than 4 miles away round trip (your heart will thank you in the long run)
I) Quit smoking, or smoke less (quitting will save at least $30-$40/ week)
J) Use a clothesline instead of a dryer whenever possible.
K) Turn off the lights when you don't need them.
I could go on and on. H2H is dead. The website is hitechcreations.COM. The dot COM part is for COMMERCE. Its not dot ORG (usually reserved for not-for-profit)
These guys are trying to make money. It is the American way. If AH2 REALLY means enough (or anything else for that matter) it isn't hard to scrape that $00.50/day together.
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Originally posted by VonMessa
There are a multitude of ways to come up with another $15/month. Anyone who says they can't, only translates into A) The wife won't let me, B) Mom and Dad won't pay for it, or C) My credit sucks and I don't have one single credit card to use.
$15/ month = $0.50/day. Here is a small list to scape that pile of money together. Use any combo you like.
A) Make coffee and take it to work, don't buy it at the circle "K" on the way to work.
B) Flush the toilet 1 or 2 times less/day or put something in the tank to take up space so you use less per flush.
C) Cut 5 minutes to 10 minutes off your shower time, shut off the water when lathering
D) Don't let the water run when you brush your teeth.
E) Pack your lunch.
F) Turning down the thermostat by just 2-3 degrees can almost save $5- $10 a month.
G) Buy cheaper beer or brew your own (I find that method more satisfying anyway) or recycle your aluminum.
H) Use cruise control, don't drive over 55mph, walk anywhere less than 4 miles away round trip (your heart will thank you in the long run)
I) Quit smoking, or smoke less (quitting will save at least $30-$40/ week)
J) Use a clothesline instead of a dryer whenever possible.
K) Turn off the lights when you don't need them.
I could go on and on. H2H is dead. The website is hitechcreations.COM. The dot COM part is for COMMERCE. Its not dot ORG (usually reserved for not-for-profit)
These guys are trying to make money. It is the American way. If AH2 REALLY means enough (or anything else for that matter) it isn't hard to scrape that $00.50/day together.
Yeah, still not exactly right.
Is it hard to believe that people may just run a budget that is THAT tight?
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Oh, it's possible. I've been there myself many times. Only, I haven't always been "steadily" employed. Hell I went through a period of well over a YEAR looking for work. Had to cancel my sub a couple of times because whatever I had was going to whatever it could.
However, I think if you have STEADY income, it's possible.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Oh, it's possible. I've been there myself many times. Only, I haven't always been "steadily" employed. Hell I went through a period of well over a YEAR looking for work. Had to cancel my sub a couple of times because whatever I had was going to whatever it could.
However, I think if you have STEADY income, it's possible.
I REALLY wish it were true. :) But even with 2 steady incomes the costs of raising 4 children tends to make it really hard. I think I'll vote democrat next time, Hillary will pay for my AHII!
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Originally posted by clerick
Yeah, still not exactly right.
Is it hard to believe that people may just run a budget that is THAT tight?
I was raised by my grandparents, who went through a depression. Some of the ideas I posted are not very silly. Even in times of prosperity, it was always drilled into me that one must not waste a thing. There are always ways to cut costs. Anyone who says otherwise, is not looking hard enough. I equate it to someone who claims that they can't afford to buy groceries because of inflation, while they watch football on ESPN all weekend. Turn off the TV, my friend, cancel the cable, use the $ for food.
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Originally posted by clerick
the costs of raising 4 children
That might do it..
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Originally posted by VonMessa
I was raised by my grandparents, who went through a depression. Some of the ideas I posted are not very silly. Even in times of prosperity, it was always drilled into me that one must not waste a thing. There are always ways to cut costs. Anyone who says otherwise, is not looking hard enough. I equate it to someone who claims that they can't afford to buy groceries because of inflation, while they watch football on ESPN all weekend. Turn off the TV, my friend, cancel the cable, use the $ for food.
I agree that many people who say they can't afford anything can benefit from drastic cost cutting measures. I was really taking issue with your blanket statement that EVERYONE can afford AH. At this point in my life i cannot, and it makes me cry... :cry
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Opportunity costs. Children are at the more extreme end of that, but Von's basic point stands- some of the things you buy or pay for, mean that you have to give up other things. The reverse is also true, although I do not condone or encourage the sale of children to pay for internet gaming, with a few exceptions.
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Budget?
Sounds a little like Al Gore to me.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Opportunity costs. Children are at the more extreme end of that, but Von's basic point stands- some of the things you buy or pay for, mean that you have to give up other things. The reverse is also true, although I do not condone or encourage the sale of children to pay for internet gaming, with a few exceptions.
With the way today has gone....
4-Sale: four children, slightly used. Good workers, as long as you do most of it. Expert mess makers with almost supernatural ability to eat mac & cheese.
Pm me for pics and more details.
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Originally posted by clerick
I think I'll vote democrat next time, Hillary will pay for my AHII!
Don't bet on it. They'll feel compelled to end the cartoon violence.:confused:
Billiary will be pressured by the AH widows association to take immediate action.
Furthermore, all combat aircraft will be painted pink and shoot bouquets, JetA1 will be replaced with Chanel and aviation tyres will be made with Kumho's special drift compound to make pink smoke when they land.