Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Bosco123 on December 15, 2007, 04:50:09 PM
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They are similar in many ways, but the P38 is a better turn fighter and the 190 is an E fighter but the P38 is still not the best turner. So what would realy happen against these two in the air?
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38, easily, unless there are swarms of good sticks in 190s
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...unless the 38 driver underestimates the zoom-climb capability of the 190
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Originally posted by Bosco123
They are similar in many ways...
Only in a world where the P-51's top speed is 350MPH.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Keiler
...unless the 38 driver underestimates the zoom-climb capability of the 190
Actually, the other way around. P-38 is better in the vertical than the FW190 as it is able to retain energy much better. It's the 190 driver that needs to make sure they don't underestimate the zoom and vertical ability of the Lightning.
ack-ack
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Well I have a film recorded, 1 on 1, where the 38 guy didnt think I would catch him (and he had lots of e advantage at first). If it wouldnt have been my inept gunnery I would have gotten him on the first loop. And it didnt feel like I was totally struggling to keep my nose up (A-5).
Matt
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There are some good 190 sticks that can make them do things the average AH 190 driver can't.
And of course there are some 38 sticks who can do the same thing.
Being an average 38G driver my experience is that I generally find the 190s above me. I tend to fly lower then most. 10K is high, 5K is probably average for me.
So I tend to have to start on the defensive. Most times the 190 guy comes screaming in from on high and blows the pass and keeps going. If I'm lucky they'll stay and turn.
The other usual event is they'll come screaming in nose on and the cannons light up from 1.5K on in so it becomes a time to duck the HO shot.
Again there are a few guys in 190s that doesn't apply to, but thankfully I don't run into them too often :)
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There are some good sticks in both, the best p38 pilot ive ran into by far is vonholtz but I dont see him much anymore. He always wins whenever I fight him but each fight is about 5min long usually its my a5 vs his P38G.
I think the 190a8 is better suited for fighting buffs then the p38's because of its cannons and armor. The 190 are better in a dive but not as good as the p38 in turning.
IMO
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The 38 is a much better plane in AH. They are similar in that they are propeller driven fighter aircraft, flown by people, using a mix of cannons and machine guns. Beyond that, I'm not really sure what similarities they share. Internal combustion engines and largely metal construction? They catch fire, shed parts, or blow up when shot? They're also arguably similar to school buses in that regard, but I would still hesitate to draw that parallel with a straight a face and any conviction.
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Any of the 190 Antons we have are outclassed by the P-38J or L in the game. Your best bet is the 190A-5, and it's still cannon fodder in an even-up fight. The Dora has enough speed to flee, and it will likely have to because in anything close to a Co-E meeting, it is in deep bandini.
Those who may be inclined to disagree, you can find me in the TA Tuesday thru Thursday evenings.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Those who may be inclined to disagree, you can find me in the TA Tuesday thru Thursday evenings.
You're probably a better cartoon pilot than most who would disagree, and would probably beat them if they were in the 38 and you were in the A5. A better test would be to have two zipcodes duke it out, one in each plane. ;)
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If you can find an equally horrible 38 pilot, I'll help demonstrate the point.
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if the fight starts hi, the 190 will be able to pick when or how he engages, even the best sticks are going to a hard time doing anything in a 38 accept turn and ho, 190 by a landslide.
a little addition for those rope a dope addicts out there, dont get sukkerd:aok
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Originally posted by stephen
if the fight starts hi, the 190 will be able to pick when or how he engages, even the best sticks are going to a hard time doing anything in a 38 accept turn and ho, 190 by a landslide.
a little addition for those rope a dope addicts out there, dont get sukkerd:aok
I think Widewing has an offer for you.
And if the fight starts high and the 190 with E, you MIGHT be correct. But co E, I don't think so.
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Originally posted by stephen
if the fight starts hi, the 190 will be able to pick when or how he engages, even the best sticks are going to a hard time doing anything in a 38 accept turn and ho, 190 by a landslide.
a little addition for those rope a dope addicts out there, dont get sukkerd:aok
lmao
There is a great film murdr posted with your scenario. The nameless 190 A5 who I'm positive is a better stick than you. Got his arse shot off after his third attempt to engage. I'll see if I can find it.
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Originally posted by stephen
if the fight starts hi, the 190 will be able to pick when or how he engages, even the best sticks are going to a hard time doing anything in a 38 accept turn and ho, 190 by a landslide.
a little addition for those rope a dope addicts out there, dont get sukkerd:aok
I get a kick out of guys like this...
Define "starts high". 10k, 20k higher? Do both start high, or only the 190? Not that it matters to me, I really don't mind being the low fighter.
Keep in mind that the P-38J is faster over 90% of the altitude range than the Antons, and the difference in acceleration and climb gets increasingly lopsided as you go up. I should remind folks that the last adjustment to the drag model significantly increased the turn radius of all 190s, including the Ta 152.
I fly 190s quite a lot. I'm as capable in them as anyone else. I know where they're weak and strong. I also fly the P-38s a great deal. Air to air, the P-38J/L is superior. When all is said and done, all the 190 can do is split-s and skedaddle.
Among the fighters that perform best in vertical combat, I rate the P-38 as the best of the bunch. Its stability and rudder control is without peer (it's the only fighter than can perform a perfectly controlled hammerhead stall).
Let's add some perspective. The P-51 owns the 190s in a duel. The P-38 owns the P-51 in a duel... Draw the logical conclusion.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Any of the 190 Antons we have are outclassed by the P-38J or L in the game. Your best bet is the 190A-5, and it's still cannon fodder in an even-up fight. The Dora has enough speed to flee, and it will likely have to because in anything close to a Co-E meeting, it is in deep bandini.
Agreed. The planes are not even close.
- oldman
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"Agreed. The planes are not even close."
I agree with that too. The most numerous Anton variant is a POS in AH. Draw your own conclusions from that... :p
-C+
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A little comparison data from actual testing:
25% fuel, zero burn. 190A-5 with just two cannon.
Best turn radius, full flaps and WEP.
190A-5: 601.6 feet
P-38J: 598.4 feet
Note that the 190A-5 cannot get flaps out at all without either reducing power or climbing. Meanwhile, the P-38 can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph. The 190 won't survive long enough to get flaps out.
Climb, time from dead stop on runway to 5k and 10k. Yak-9U thrown in for reference.
190A-5: 1:35.79 to 5k / 3:01.44 to 10k
P-38J: 1:29.98 to 5k / 2:51.91 to 10k
Yak-9U: 1:32.16 to 5k / 2:54.56 to 10k
Acceleration, from 150 mph to 300 mph at 100 feet ASL.
190A-5: 49.91 seconds
P-38J: 45.31 seconds
Yak-9U: 44.37 seconds
My regards,
Widewing
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Here's the actual data from the last tour, late war MA. Interesting numbers I think. I wouldn't draw a strong conclusion from this. If I saw all the data from all the tours ever, I'd still probably lean towards thinking its pilot over plane.
Fw 190A-5 has 13 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 9 Kills of Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-5 has 41 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 44 Kills of Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-5 has 97 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 55 Kills of Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8 has 27 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 25 Kills of Fw 190A-8
Fw 190A-8 has 89 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 95 Kills of Fw 190A-8
Fw 190A-8 has 230 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 169 Kills of Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8 has 28 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 32 Kills of Fw 190F-8
Fw 190F-8 has 1 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 7 Kills of Fw 190F-8
Fw 190F-8 has 8 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 18 Kills of Fw 190F-8
Fw 190D-9 has 32 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 13 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 101 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 112 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 299 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 162 Kills of Fw 190D-9
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Originally posted by stephen
if the fight starts hi, the 190 will be able to pick when or how he engages, even the best sticks are going to a hard time doing anything in a 38 accept turn and ho, 190 by a landslide.
That can be said for any fighter that starts off with an altitude advantage. But as Widewing said, the FW190 better have a significant altitude advantage because co-E it is going to die. Also, the higher the altitude the more the P-38 shines.
If you have any doubts, I'd be more than happy to show you how a P-38 can kill a FW190.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by oboe
Here's the actual data from the last tour, late war MA. Interesting numbers I think. I wouldn't draw a strong conclusion from this. If I saw all the data from all the tours ever, I'd still probably lean towards thinking its pilot over plane.
I'd suggest it is in more how the planes are flown. I rarely find 190s below me, and usually find them above. They are BnZ birds for the most part and I know when I've died to a 190 it's usually some guy blowing through a fight I've been having with someone else and getting the cannons to do their thing.
As I said in another post there are a few 190 drivers who can really make it move, but on the whole it's a speed and heavy cannon bird not one that stays in to fight.
That's not a criticism btw, as it makes little sense for them to do so as most can't work magic in them.
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I'd suggest that it's a combination of how they are flown, how they are used, and the number of sorties of both planes and their variants. I'd bet a lot of those kills by 190s occured near or on the runway.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'd suggest that it's a combination of how they are flown, how they are used, and the number of sorties of both planes and their variants. I'd bet a lot of those kills by 190s occured near or on the runway.
There ya go making sense again hub.
Stop it :furious
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Originally posted by Bosco123
They are similar in many ways, but the P38 is a better turn fighter and the 190 is an E fighter but the P38 is still not the best turner. So what would realy happen against these two in the air?
This one would go on how much each pilot knows their plane.
If the p38 can get the 190 to tail it in a climb while p38's flying with WEP, the p38 odds are will win that fight, but, if the 190 can get it into a roll/stall fight, odds are, the 190 will win, it all depends on how it goes down, and how much talent is in the other plane.
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Originally posted by trigger2
This one would go on how much each pilot knows their plane.
If the p38 can get the 190 to tail it in a climb while p38's flying with WEP, the p38 odds are will win that fight, but, if the 190 can get it into a roll/stall fight, odds are, the 190 will win, it all depends on how it goes down, and how much talent is in the other plane.
I love it when a 190 thinks he can start rolling and force my P38 to overshoot. I just deploy flaps and cut throttle and fly straight and level while 190 goes back and forth rolling as fast as it can... while I remain behind it.
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Originally posted by trigger2
if the 190 can get it into a roll/stall fight, odds are, the 190 will win, it all depends on how it goes down, and how much talent is in the other plane.
P-38 will beat the crap out of a FW190 in a low/stall speed fight, especially in a rolling scissors. P-38 handles far better at slow/stall speeds than a FW190 and will be able to use this advantage to stay behind the FW190 as it tries to reverse in a rolling scissor.
ack-ack
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I'm surprised so many people get the strenghts and weaknesses of these two planes mixed up.
Against someone who knows his stuff, getting slow (unless he's in a dedicated turner) and CoE against a P-38J/L is a death warrant.
CoE the 190A-5/8 are prey.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
If you can find an equally horrible 38 pilot, I'll help demonstrate the point.
I am available for horrible 38 pilot demonstrations!
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Originally posted by Bosco123
They are similar in many ways, but the P38 is a better turn fighter and the 190 is an E fighter but the P38 is still not the best turner. So what would realy happen against these two in the air?
If the P-38 ain't going down after my first pass, I disengage with my FW.
If the P-38 is behind my FW, I'll disengage.
No point in staying and taking the risk :) Use your superior plane to survive and wait for next chance or perhaps drag the P-38 for your wingman or other colleague.
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Sorry it took so long to reply was tied up, but to touch on what several fellows have said, I naturaly assumed that by "HI" we would be talking co alt AND E,
Even if this was confusing, and even if both aircraft where equal by date of introduction, the 190 is able to engage or disingage at will. No p38 can stay in a dive with a 190 to the extreme's its capable of,...without compressing, and lossing control in pitch.
This of course is if the both pilots are of loosly the same skill level, and the 190 doesnt allow the 38 into firing range as they are diving.
That said, if both late war variants where to engage on equal terms,"i.e. clean merge with no HO'ing" im sorry to say the 190 has the 38 in alot of areas that count, not the least of which is pure blistering speed.
I prefr to let 38's blow what E they have musterd in a hi speed turn, extend at full wep, and pull into the vertical, letting the p38 "who is positive he has better control in the vertical" follow me up until he starts wallowing.
After that its anyones game, though I wouldnt try this in anything but my 190D-9, the other varients I dont waste much time flying.
Oh yeh dont try this at anything under 1.5, as the 38 is a monster pointed straight up,be smooth,and use rudder at the top, if the E diffrence is big enough the 38 will falter 1st.
:aok
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Originally posted by Widewing
A little comparison data from actual testing:
25% fuel, zero burn. 190A-5 with just two cannon.
Best turn radius, full flaps and WEP.
190A-5: 601.6 feet
P-38J: 598.4 feet
Note that the 190A-5 cannot get flaps out at all without either reducing power or climbing. Meanwhile, the P-38 can begin deploying flaps at 250 mph. The 190 won't survive long enough to get flaps out.
Climb, time from dead stop on runway to 5k and 10k. Yak-9U thrown in for reference.
190A-5: 1:35.79 to 5k / 3:01.44 to 10k
P-38J: 1:29.98 to 5k / 2:51.91 to 10k
Yak-9U: 1:32.16 to 5k / 2:54.56 to 10k
Acceleration, from 150 mph to 300 mph at 100 feet ASL.
190A-5: 49.91 seconds
P-38J: 45.31 seconds
Yak-9U: 44.37 seconds
My regards,
Widewing
widewing........i'm only asking, to learn..not questioning your numbers.......but with the difference in the above mentioned turn radius, it seems close enough that it would come down to pilot skill? or did you slow the fw down enough to get the flaps out?
also, i've yet to come across an FW driver that'll actually even ATTEMPT to turnfight.....regardless of what i'm in. they almost ALWAYS kill me as they're generally much higher than i am.....it seems that no matter how hi i go, i find them above me.......me at 5k, them 8-12k....me 15k, them over 20k.....i don't like wasting time to climb that high.........if i DO find one co-alt, or a bit lower, they almost ALWAYS extend(read: run) then turn back and try to HO..if they miss, the continue, and try again.........
based on this, i'd make the asumption that if i were in the FW, u in any version of the 38, you'd hand my arse back to me. switch planes....and i think the same result.
someday i need to find time to get into TA or DA to learn more, but my time is so limited anymore that i simply go to the MA's for the furballs.
<>
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Originally posted by stephen
Sorry it took so long to reply was tied up, but to touch on what several fellows have said, I naturaly assumed that by "HI" we would be talking co alt AND E,
Even if this was confusing, and even if both aircraft where equal by date of introduction, the 190 is able to engage or disingage at will. No p38 can stay in a dive with a 190 to the extreme's its capable of,...without compressing, and lossing control in pitch.
This of course is if the both pilots are of loosly the same skill level, and the 190 doesnt allow the 38 into firing range as they are diving.
That said, if both late war variants where to engage on equal terms,"i.e. clean merge with no HO'ing" im sorry to say the 190 has the 38 in alot of areas that count, not the least of which is pure blistering speed.
I prefr to let 38's blow what E they have musterd in a hi speed turn, extend at full wep, and pull into the vertical, letting the p38 "who is positive he has better control in the vertical" follow me up until he starts wallowing.
After that its anyones game, though I wouldnt try this in anything but my 190D-9, the other varients I dont waste much time flying.
Oh yeh dont try this at anything under 1.5, as the 38 is a monster pointed straight up,be smooth,and use rudder at the top, if the E diffrence is big enough the 38 will falter 1st.
:aok
A 38L and 190D9 meet co alt and Co E and you are suggesting the top speed of the 190D9 is what compared to the 38L?
Seems like the top speed for the 38L is 414 and the 190D9 is 408.
Seems kinda comparable. Nothing blistering about it unless the D9 is going away and downhill.
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CAP, I think a key number that's missing is the time required to make that complete revolution.
Stephen, you're making almost no sense at all.
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lol you are a killer, and your looking at data to your own dismay my friend, fly a 190d9 for a couple years, and after youve merged with the grand majority of 38 pilots throughout that time tell me im not making sense....
the 190 has more wep, a higher speed at low alt"where we fly the most" better hi speed handling, is more responsive to control inputs, and climbs better, lol not making sense, do you ever fly the Dora?
its the diffrence bettween a viper and a porshe, the viper might be big and heavy and fast, but it just isnt made to zip around in the same plane...
read less/fly ,more...argument over.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
A 38L and 190D9 meet co alt and Co E and you are suggesting the top speed of the 190D9 is what compared to the 38L?
Seems like the top speed for the 38L is 414 and the 190D9 is 408.
Seems kinda comparable. Nothing blistering about it unless the D9 is going away and downhill.
Isn't top speed of the D9 around 435-440? 408 sounds more like a 190A. Below 20k 190d has a decent speed advantage over 38.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php?p1=p38l&p2=190a5&p3=190d9
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Originally posted by stephen
lol you are a killer, and your looking at data to your own dismay my friend, fly a 190d9 for a couple years, and after youve merged with the grand majority of 38 pilots throughout that time tell me im not making sense....
the 190 has more wep, a higher speed at low alt"where we fly the most" better hi speed handling, is more responsive to control inputs, and climbs better, lol not making sense, do you ever fly the Dora?
its the diffrence bettween a viper and a porshe, the viper might be big and heavy and fast, but it just isnt made to zip around in the same plane...
read less/fly ,more...argument over.
You're not making sense...or rather I should say that you are incorrect. If you like, I can show you.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by CAP1
widewing........i'm only asking, to learn..not questioning your numbers.......but with the difference in the above mentioned turn radius, it seems close enough that it would come down to pilot skill? or did you slow the fw down enough to get the flaps out?
also, i've yet to come across an FW driver that'll actually even ATTEMPT to turnfight.....regardless of what i'm in. they almost ALWAYS kill me as they're generally much higher than i am.....it seems that no matter how hi i go, i find them above me.......me at 5k, them 8-12k....me 15k, them over 20k.....i don't like wasting time to climb that high.........if i DO find one co-alt, or a bit lower, they almost ALWAYS extend(read: run) then turn back and try to HO..if they miss, the continue, and try again.........
based on this, i'd make the asumption that if i were in the FW, u in any version of the 38, you'd hand my arse back to me. switch planes....and i think the same result.
someday i need to find time to get into TA or DA to learn more, but my time is so limited anymore that i simply go to the MA's for the furballs.
<>
The problem with flaps in a 190 is you have to get extremely slow to get them out. In the meanwhile, you have a turn radius comparable to a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Even getting them out is no bargain. The best of the 190s (in terms of turning), with minimal fuel and only two cannon still can do no better than a 1,200 ft turning circle with full flaps. When pushed that hard, the 190 will snap spin without much provocation. As it is, you can't get the flaps all the way out unless you get the nose quite high, or pull off power. Believe me, you're long dead by that point. Also, the 190D-9, A-8, and F-8 have turn radii in excess of 700 feet (1,400 ft circle) even with full flaps. That's medium bomber territory... :) Indeed, the B-25C has a turn radius virtually identical to the Dora.
Don't get me wrong, you can do a lot with the 190s. I've flown them this tour some, going 23/2, with one loss due to a collision with a Seafire and another to being picked by Waffle's 262 while beating up several La-7s. 190 Antons, the Dora and Ta 152 require discipline and good SA. You have to recognize when it's time to unload and re-merge. You have to avoid getting too slow. You have to think about what you want to do, rather than just dive in and hope for the best. You also have to have the good sense to recognize that you will not get home very often if you don't avoid the traps and don't fight to the type's strengths.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by TUXC
Isn't top speed of the D9 around 435-440? 408 sounds more like a 190A. Below 20k 190d has a decent speed advantage over 38.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php?p1=p38l&p2=190a5&p3=190d9
The Dora manages about 424 to 426 depending upon load. Add a centerline rack and it drops to around 418 mph. Down at 10k, the Dora can reach 405 mph.
In comparison, the A-5 and A-8 can do about 403 mph at 20k, 366 mph at 10k.
My regards,
Widewing
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Ack Ack dont take it personaly, the p38 is simply an inferior ride, your argument is moot unless you can prove to me that the 38 can dictate the fight, which it obviuosly can not unless the 190d9 pilot is caught with his pants down low and slow
lol I take much pleasure from diving to low alt away from 38's, waiting for them to turn, then going over the top to hit them as they try to face me.
Its a lumbering frieght train against any decent pilot, give up the ghost..., co alt the 190d9 will run away if hes in danger, and theres nothing a lightning pilot can do but spray and pray in disgust.
we arent talking about a one on one, because like in war time, its up to the pilot if he wants to engage or not, and if the 190 does want to make a couple of passes, than he will allways have the ability to run away at low alt.
Its not hard just admit it, the 190D9 hands down is a better plane,or if thats to hard to swallow try admiting at-least that its the most survivable of the two,
Oh yeh, the 190's game is not in the turn, and it never has been, simply put a 38 rolls slow, and the 190 rolls fast, in fact the 38 is the easiest A/C to scissor in a 190 as the roll rate is so cruddy.
"Search your feelings Luke, and you will know it to be true".....
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Originally posted by stephen
we arent talking about a one on one,
Yeah, actually, that's exactly what's being discussed. Read more.
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so theres basicly a gun to the 190's head, and he must fight, ok.....
so what are the rules co alt and co E? head on pass? 38 is being chased, or 190?
ok let me make it even more simple.
I will kill 72% of the pilots in this game 2 out of three times in a co alt merge in my 190d9 vs a 38L at medium alt "below 15k".
Theres no convincing you obviously, and ill accept that, but you know when your in that 38 and a decent 190 stick is coming head on that one of two things are gonna happen, hes gonna run away from you or your gonna die, last post on the subject :aok
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Originally posted by stephen
hes gonna run away from you
That's the only chance he's got to survive. Just like your only chance of surviving in this thread is to run away. :p :lol
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stephen ... I believe it has been offered for you to meet one of the better 38 pilots (take your pick ... 4 or 5 have posted in this thread I think).
I for one would love to hear the outcome .... and would relish to see the video of the fight/fights. I happen to be fairly cruddy in both (I do enjoy flying em) ... but in the interest of learning urge you to take up the challange.
You seen confident enough ... give it a go.
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Originally posted by stephen
so theres basicly a gun to the 190's head, and he must fight, ok.....
so what are the rules co alt and co E? head on pass? 38 is being chased, or 190?
ok let me make it even more simple.
I will kill 72% of the pilots in this game 2 out of three times in a co alt merge in my 190d9 vs a 38L at medium alt "below 15k".
Theres no convincing you obviously, and ill accept that, but you know when your in that 38 and a decent 190 stick is coming head on that one of two things are gonna happen, hes gonna run away from you or he's gonna die, last post on the subject :aok
So your position is you can run away in your D9? And that makes it superior?:rofl :rofl :rofl
When I'm in a P-38, and I meet a 190, I figure a decent stick will fight, and the rest of them will run. If he's a decent stick, he should beat me because I'm not even average. But when I'm flying on a regular basis, I don't do too bad against the 190.
Oh, yeah, by the way, looking at your posts, it seems you need spell checker, desperately.
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no real world scenerio would place the 190 in an inescapable situation,and I refuse to throw my experience away doing so, Bosco asked "what would happen between these two in the air?" and im sure ive described that fairly simply, so if you like the p38 fly it, if you like the 190 fly it, but dont tell me to fly against the cream of the crop without being able to disengage in here, as that wouldnt prove anything other than I was to stupid to know when the nme had a supperior state.
learn the 190, stop this fantasyland 38 adoration, and fly somthing that takes a little skill. lol and yeh I cant spell, so what? dont be angry because im the one telling you that fork tailed kite is inferior in the MA.
Some children have to be taught that theve made bad decisions, and a few of them need special attention....lightning pilots are guided by there hearts instead of thier heads, just dont pretend its better than anything else in the game, makes you look desperate
:aok
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Originally posted by stephen
if he retreats, you have allowed him another chance to retreat again later.
There, I fixed it. ;)
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Originally posted by stephen
no real world scenerio would place the 190 in an inescapable situation,and I refuse to throw my experience away doing so, Bosco asked "what would happen between these two in the air?" and im sure ive described that fairly simply, so if you like the p38 fly it, if you like the 190 fly it, but dont tell me to fly against the cream of the crop without being able to disengage in here, as that wouldnt prove anything other than I was to stupid to know when the nme had a supperior state.
learn the 190, stop this fantasyland 38 adoration, and fly somthing that takes a little skill. lol and yeh I cant spell, so what? dont be angry because im the one telling you that fork tailed kite is inferior in the MA.
Some children have to be taught that theve made bad decisions, and a few of them need special attention....lightning pilots are guided by there hearts instead of thier heads, just dont pretend its better than anything else in the game, makes you look desperate
:aok
Again, the offer still stands. If you want to know what a P-38 can do versus a FW190, look me up. I'll be more than happy to show you but I doubt you will take me up on my offer since from your own admission you'll just run away.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Widewing
The Dora manages about 424 to 426 depending upon load. Add a centerline rack and it drops to around 418 mph. Down at 10k, the Dora can reach 405 mph.
In comparison, the A-5 and A-8 can do about 403 mph at 20k, 366 mph at 10k.
My regards,
Widewing
wwiiaircraftperformance.com has 3 tests of the A-5 with 407-408mph at 20669ft.
440 for the 190D is definitely high (though much more representative than the 408 which was posted above), but I can find anywhere from 691-702km/h for max speed of the D-9 (429-236mph) with MW-50, so for the purposes of this discussion 430mph is probably a reasonable value without the rack. Of course, the 190D reaches this speed well below 20000ft whereas the P38's max speed is reached above 20k, so the Dora only has a speed advantage at low and medium altitude. This margin is diminished somewhat if the 38L's engines are rigged for more than 60" MP. In real life it would probably be a good fight, but in the game the Dora has to stay fast in a 1v1 to live. 2v2 or 4v4 is a different story, however.
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Originally posted by stephen
Ack Ack dont take it personaly, the p38 is simply an inferior ride, your argument is moot unless you can prove to me that the 38 can dictate the fight, which it obviuosly can not unless the 190d9 pilot is caught with his pants down low and slow
lol I take much pleasure from diving to low alt away from 38's, waiting for them to turn, then going over the top to hit them as they try to face me.
Its a lumbering frieght train against any decent pilot, give up the ghost..., co alt the 190d9 will run away if hes in danger, and theres nothing a lightning pilot can do but spray and pray in disgust.
we arent talking about a one on one, because like in war time, its up to the pilot if he wants to engage or not, and if the 190 does want to make a couple of passes, than he will allways have the ability to run away at low alt.
Its not hard just admit it, the 190D9 hands down is a better plane,or if thats to hard to swallow try admiting at-least that its the most survivable of the two,
Oh yeh, the 190's game is not in the turn, and it never has been, simply put a 38 rolls slow, and the 190 rolls fast, in fact the 38 is the easiest A/C to scissor in a 190 as the roll rate is so cruddy.
"Search your feelings Luke, and you will know it to be true".....
My response to this is summed up here. (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/VinnieBull.wav)
My regards,
Widewing
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widewing, your a respected, and admired author in here, stop playing these infantile games and give it up, along with your pals you MUST admit that the D9 has a better K/D ratio, lollololololl hate it you may, but 190 will stay, cheap parlor tricks aside this is a better bird:rofl
cheap thrills ez kills, p38 s dog dog dog rough rough lol:aok
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Translation: I don't actually play Aces High.
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Originally posted by stephen
the D9 has a better K/D ratio, l
And why is that??
Because it is flown by wuss pickers.
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Stephen,
I fly the German planes a lot and the Dora is fast and has great high speed handling, but I think you are seriously underestimating the capabilities of the P-38 in the vertical and in an angles fight.
I think Widewing and another good stick in 190Ds or A5s vs. Ack-Ack and another good stick in P38Ls, Js or Gs. at 10k would make for an interesting fight.
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Originally posted by stephen
lollololololl
= laughing out loud, laughing out loud, out loud, out loud, out loud, loud
No further comment necessary.
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because it is a superior plane, and is therefore more survivable and better than the 38, even to novices, thank you for making my point for me and good night!:aok
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Originally posted by stephen
because it is a superior plane, and is therefore more survivable and better than the 38, even to novices, thank you for making my point for me and good night!:aok
Said the picker.
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Originally posted by stephen
because it is a superior plane, and is therefore more survivable and better than the 38, even to novices, thank you for making my point for me and good night!:aok
No, it is not a superior plane. I'd say 99 out of 100 fly the D9 because they can run away from nearly anything. I don't think running away makes it superior. A few good sticks fly it because they like it.
Your explanation of superiority, for both you and the plane, shows you know no other style than to pick and run. That doesn't require a superior plane, or a superior pilot. Just a chicken in a fast plane. Hell, anyone can be a chicken in a fast plane.
Your comparison of K/D ratio assumes equal fights and equal usage. The truth is the P-38L is used quite often as an ordnance dump truck by a bunch of suicide dweebs because it carries as much as many bombers, where as the 190D9 is used as a hit and run vulch machine by the majority of those who fly it. As such, your comparison is as useless and pointless as the rest of your argument. No surprise there.
I'm betting co-alt, co-E, you aren't a match for Ack-Ack, Widewing, Raptor, or Murdr. You might be a match for me. That ain't nothin' to brag about. For you OR the plane. Keep running around in the box like your avatar. We need a good laugh, and you're it.
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Hrm... Stephen doesn't even play ANY flight sim game, Hubs.
Even the greenest of newbies isn't that bad. I wonder if he's a shades troll?
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Your comparison of K/D ratio assumes equal fights and equal usage. The truth is the P-38L is used quite often as an ordnance dump truck by a bunch of suicide dweebs because it carries as much as many bombers, where as the 190D9 is used as a hit and run vulch machine by the majority of those who fly it.
What can I say, I love the mud flaps.
Suicide Dweeb. :aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hrm... Stephen doesn't even play ANY flight sim game, Hubs.
Even the greenest of newbies isn't that bad. I wonder if he's a shades troll?
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191696
Give his posts a quick read.
;)
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Originally posted by E25280
What can I say, I love the mud flaps.
Suicide Dweeb. :aok
Those are called elevators, goofball. If you cleaned the mud off, you might not auger all the time. :)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Those are called elevators, goofball. If you cleaned the mud off, you might not auger all the time. :)
:o
It's all so clear now . . . :cry
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Originally posted by stephen
Oh yeh, the 190's game is not in the turn, and it never has been, simply put a 38 rolls slow, and the 190 rolls fast, in fact the 38 is the easiest A/C to scissor in a 190 as the roll rate is so cruddy.
[/B]
i'm by no means a good p38 driver.....but..........you'd be VERY surprised at just how well she DOES roll, with proper rudder application.......
<>
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Originally posted by stephen
so theres basicly a gun to the 190's head, and he must fight, ok.....
so what are the rules co alt and co E? head on pass? 38 is being chased, or 190?
ok let me make it even more simple.
I will kill 72% of the pilots in this game 2 out of three times in a co alt merge in my 190d9 vs a 38L at medium alt "below 15k".
Theres no convincing you obviously, and ill accept that, but you know when your in that 38 and a decent 190 stick is coming head on that one of two things are gonna happen, hes gonna run away from you or your gonna die, last post on the subject :aok
hhmmmm....this almost sounds like you wanna go to the DA with ack ack, murdr, or widewing to prove your point....and i think that if you don't go there, then they've proven their point......and again, i am no good 38 driver.......yet....hellll... ..i have trouble in spits and hurris....and in zekes.....sheesh.....can't catch a cold in those buckets:rofl
<>:rofl
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Again, the offer still stands. If you want to know what a P-38 can do versus a FW190, look me up. I'll be more than happy to show you but I doubt you will take me up on my offer since from your own admission you'll just run away.
ack-ack
i bet ya a six pack he doesn't take the offer....salthough i wish he would.......and that both of you would film it.......there are a lot of us that could learn a lot from seeing two decent sticks in this fight.
<>
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Originally posted by Widewing
My response to this is summed up here. (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/VinnieBull.wav)
My regards,
Widewing
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Bronk
And why is that??
Because it is flown by wuss pickers.
and hotards, and bnz'rs.........although there are a few good ones......:noid
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Something was never specified in the original question. Is this a 1vs1 duel, 2vs2, or a multiple aircraft engagement?
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Something was never specified in the original question. Is this a 1vs1 duel, 2vs2, or a multiple aircraft engagement?
It seems to change whenever it suits stephan. I think now it's gone from superior to the P-38 to the best damn runner in the game.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by TUXC
wwiiaircraftperformance.com has 3 tests of the A-5 with 407-408mph at 20669ft.
440 for the 190D is definitely high (though much more representative than the 408 which was posted above), but I can find anywhere from 691-702km/h for max speed of the D-9 (429-236mph) with MW-50, so for the purposes of this discussion 430mph is probably a reasonable value without the rack. Of course, the 190D reaches this speed well below 20000ft whereas the P38's max speed is reached above 20k, so the Dora only has a speed advantage at low and medium altitude. This margin is diminished somewhat if the 38L's engines are rigged for more than 60" MP. In real life it would probably be a good fight, but in the game the Dora has to stay fast in a 1v1 to live. 2v2 or 4v4 is a different story, however.
I had to pull out my notebook and check actual in-game speeds at various altitudes.
At 21.7k the Dora can reach 428 mph.
At 18k, the Dora can reach 431 mph.
At 16k the Dora can reach 425 mph.
At 16k in MIL power, the Dora can manage only 402 mph.
One very underrated fighter is the P-51B, which is damned fast at middle altitudes.
At 18k the P-51B does 422 mph.
At 16k the P-51B does 427 mph, faster than the Dora.
At 16k in MIL power, the P-51B does 419 mph, 17 mph faster than the Dora does at MIL power. Keep in mind that the P-51B was in combat a year before the Dora.
In short, without WEP, the Dora is a bit of a dog.
At 20k, the P-38L can reach 405 mph, 406 mph at 20.7k.
At the Dora's best altitude of 18k and above, The P-38L accelerates faster and climbs significantly faster. Its turn radius at all altitudes is much smaller.
Stephen has commented that the roll rate of the Dora is a big advantage. He's wrong. Above 300 mph, the P-38L rolls just as fast, and faster with a bit of rudder added (constant rate). The Dora is faster over the first 20 to 30 degrees as it has less mass outboard of the roll axis. You see, roll rate by itself is not much help if the aircraft can't pitch into the lift vector well, which is a major problem for the Dora. Urchin and I dueled his Dora against my P-47D-25. In a relatively slow flat scissors, the Jug simply ate up the Dora. Why? Because the Dora can't pitch into the lift vector well enough. Plus, the Jug just dumps flaps and slides around for a shot every time the Dora tries to turn off the roll. The P-38 is even better than the Jug at this.
Now, on to the Antons...
At 20.7k, the 190A-5 can reach 407 mph, but accelerates and climbs notably slower than the P-38J/L. The 190A-8 can manage 403 mph, but climb and acceleration are rather poor.
Naturally, the higher you go, the more the 190s suffer.
My regards,
Widewing
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This IS the WORST fighter comparison i've ever seen.
190A/D/F series vs P-47D series would be better (N excluded because it did not participate in Euro theater)
It would be more appropriate if Bf 109 series was compared against P-38.
early war
P-38G vs Bf 109F
mid war
P-38J vs Bf 109G-2/G-6
late war
P-38L vs Bf 109G-14
* 109K here is excluded because it would be too much against the P-38s. 109Ks would be better match against the Spitfire XIV
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I fly 190's all the time (about 1/3 of my fighter flight time), particularily the A8. In a co-e one on one fight the 38 will win hands down every time given equal pilot skill unless the 190 HO's on the merge or simply keeps going (running).
There are, however, many unskilled pilots in the arenas (me among them but I digress) and I have been able to beat Spits, F4U's F6F's and others in one on one turn/knife fights, although for the most part I wouldn't recommend it. Having an alt/E advantage to start is helpful particularily against "better" pilots.
The 190's do make fun turn fighters in multi-con/multi-friendly engagements though, where attention has to be continually diverted (small furballs). In such engagements, they can be both elusive and deadly.
The key to the 190 in my opinion is speed, therefor, flap usage should normally be avoided (although I have used them successfully in the past when the situation warrented it).
As B'n'Zer's and buff hunters they excel.
So there you go, everything you already knew about 190's so you never bothered to ask.
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To be fair, being able to disengage at will does account for a significant tactical advantage in a more "realistic" perspective where survival does count higher in importance, than whether a fighter plane can gratify the game pilot's ego in the need to knife-fight everything, and then thump their chests about it.
Having a generally higher K/D, does account for something, since whether or not the pilot chooses to "cherry pick" something is generally of no importance to the opponent when it comes to combat, since the only thing important in aerial combat is the results. Whether the other guy picks or not is just no excuse.
...
There are always pickers in every planes, and to be honest and frank, I've never really seen the "duelist" type of guys ever fight in their "disadvantaged" corners of the map. You see those guys usually flying in either a generally evenly matched, or an advantageous part of the map, where their own side has got the initiative and local air superiority for the moment. Or, you may see them in an "easy defensive" situation where the enemy attackers are limited and generally lacking in both skill and numbers. In other words, people usually choose to fly where they can survive more easily - which accounts for a lot of why they seem to do well in a generally "inferior" plane in many cases... not to mention those people also flock with each other, usually resulting in a "spike" of pilot skill level for their own side in that area, which also adds to the favorable environment they'd fly in.
If they go so far as to claim they maintain a superior K/D in their plane of choice, all the while knife-fighting against everyplane, truly without concern of where they fight, then simply put, they're lying. If wanting to prove otherwise, come to the Rooks and look up my position, take off from the fields where I choose to fly, and come fly with me for a while against odds and situations which I can really say would be pretty much "unfriendly" in many aspects. For years, I've been observing the "vets" and their tendencies in where they fly, and truthfully saying, it's not very impressive if you really try keep track of just where those "super-ace" type of pilots show up in the MA. Like so many others, the "vets" aren't so different in that they also flock to the path of least resistance and easy kills. They just tend to more fiercely deny it than the average guy.
...
But that being said, choosing where to fly is an active part of SA, since taking off from airfields in situations where doing so is more or less foolhardy, isn't exactly something to brag about either. Therefore, where or how the pilots chooses to fight is a free choice for everyone, and thus, it becomes no excuse in determining how really well a plane fares in the MA.
And if the Dora is powerful enough to grant a much higher survivability in accordance to the "cherry picking" style of the pilot, then that's by itself a trait worth praising of - it does exactly what the pilot needs, namely, keeping them alive, and with very admirable results. Unlike the P-38, only one or two planes can run it down when things go hairy and the pilots decides to run. It disengages at will, and allows the pilot to survive. If that's not "superiority", then what is?
I'm a meager pilot, and the chances are, I'm gonna meet a superior pilot whom I'd probably lose to whether I fly a 190 or a P-38 - that is, if I choose to stick to the fight the way they like. However, when things get hairy, the 190 can save my bacon. The P-38 cannot. How's this not "superiority"?
I've seen most of the faces showed up in this thread, usually praising the P-51, for example, when some other, similar type of comparison/discussion forms around an inexperienced pilot who questions if the P-51 is undermodelled, because he can't seem to outfly it against much more nimbler, yet slower fighter planes. Most of these people have answered that the P-51's strength lies in its ability engage or disengage at will, and how that is a superior trait among others. Strangely, for some reason, the same analogy doesn't seem to apply in this thread.
Coincidence? I call it "double standard".
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However, the K/D stats should be taken into more careful consideration in the fact that the differing roles between the Fw190D-9 and the P-38J/L in the MA accounts for a lot. Like all planes, only a handful of people have really "mastered" them, and the rest use the P-38 as more or less of a jabo plane, generally a one-way ride to the enemy base. The lack of ordnance limits the Dora to mostly a pure A2A role, and if we discount the deaths in P-38 caused from a non-A2A duty, then the K/D gap between the P-38 and the Dora would probably be closed in a lot more.
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Probably best to use the 38J for the comparison as the 38G drivers like myself tend to be down low and slow and a tad suicidal in our flying and the 38L drivers outside of a few use it as the ground pounder.
The best 38 drivers bar a couple of the L guys are in the 38J for the most part.
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Well the OP's question was worded more along the lines of a dogfight between the two.
The 38 will win - either owning the 190(A) outright or by forcing the 190(D) to retreat.
MA stats determine which plane is better for newbies and furballs where SA and quick picking is key.
I think nobody would argue that the 190 gains a lot of ground in multi-plane engagements, in addition to pork&auger runs which will naturally water down the 38's K/D.
The 38 requires (and excels with) a good pilot, but in a real war that's a scarce commodity and the 190 "workhorse" concept is imo better suited for that.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
It disengages at will, and allows the pilot to survive. If that's not "superiority", then what is?
All you're saying here is that the Dora lets you run away from a fight. It seems to me that you tacitly admit that the Dora can only get "pick" kills. The 38 can actually enter most fights with an even, or better-than-even chance, of actually engaging in prolonged combat and winning the fight.
In the real war, in ANY real war, being able to run away and survive is hugely important. But, er, this isn't a real war. If one wants to fight (not simply get kills in whatever way he can), the 38 is a far superior plane to the Dora, or to any other plane.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Kweassa
To be fair, being able to disengage at will does account for a significant tactical advantage in a more "realistic" perspective where survival does count higher in importance, than whether a fighter plane can gratify the game pilot's ego in the need to knife-fight everything, and then thump their chests about it.
It was interesting in the DGS scenario as a lot of us 'knife fighters' from the MA flew it differently because living meant something.
The 38s held their own quite well in the role they were given which was high alt escort 3 of 4 frames. All we had to do was keep the baduns off the buffs. Generally we could get in the way of the 190s who would half roll and dive away. They didn't stay in to fight under those circumstances and we didn't follow them down.
We had a total of 135 sorties flown with 37 deaths and 7 discos. We had 50 kills and again we left kills to stay with the buffs.
We had 38J and Ls with only a couple of us flying Js, of which I was one. Seems like the 38s did just fine fighting the LW birds up high and down low and it was 109Ks G-14s 190D9s, A8s and the occasional 262 and 163.
Of course my only death was a 2nd sortie in the first frame when that bastage Leitwolf picked me in a D9 while I was fighting 109s on the deck :)
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Ode To The P-38
Oh, Hedy Lamarr is a beautiful gal, and Madeleine Carroll is too,
But you'll find if you query, a different theory amongst any bomber crew
For the loveliest thing of which one could sing (this side of the pearly gates)
Is no blonde or brunette of the Hollywood set -
But an escort of P-38s.
Yes, in the days that have passed,
when the tables were massed with glasses of scotch and champagne,
It's quite true that the sight was a thing of delight us,
intent on feeling no pain.
But no longer the same, nowadays is this game
When we head north for Messina Straits
Take the sparkling wine-every time,
just make mine an escort of P-38s.
Byron, Shelley and Keats ran a dozen dead heats
Describing the views from the hills,
of the valleys in May when the winds gently sway
In the air it's a different story;
We sweat out our track through the fighters and flak
We're willing to split up the glory
Well, they wouldn't reject us, so heaven protect us
and, until all this shooting abates,
Give us courage to fight 'em - one other small item -
an escort of P-38s.
— Frederic Arnold, 'Kohn's War
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Originally posted by Bronk
lmao
There is a great film murdr posted with your scenario. The nameless 190 A5 who I'm positive is a better stick than you. Got his arse shot off after his third attempt to engage. I'll see if I can find it.
I believe this is the film (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/film29_05124_0056.ahf) you are speaking of.
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Its not like the P-38 cant disengage :)
multi.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/multi.ahf)
multi2.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/multi2.ahf)
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There is an underlying hate for certain A/C in the game, this ones a picker, this ones a HO'r,... but I melieve what is happening here is not the fault of any person or aircraft.
Upon realising that certain planes can enter the fray in a possision of thier choosing, close to range in a short time, and blast most anything into the tower in one pass, alot of players become bitter, and refuse to grant pilots the recognition for flying in a way that produces kills, followd by landing them.
I will be returning to my squad, and to this game in a short time, and yes my name will still be a derivitive of popceed.
I fly 190's ALOT, as my former fellow Rooks will atest to, and I land killz in it, so it has a special place in my heart, but this seeming hatred of any plane that boom and zooms well is miss guided, its not cheating, under handed, or cruel,...its flying.
If you dont like getting boom and zoomed by a plane made for it say so, but please dont miss lead all the new guys into believing a plane is inferior based on the fact that you hate the way we fly it.
I dont want to one on one people, if I wanted to do that then YES I would pick somthing that turns well, but the 190 isnt about 1 on 1 and I refuse to be baited into a rigged contest to prove the merit of this plane,
I KNOW IT ROCKS...lol
My personal decision to fly the 190 over the p38 has alot to do with survivability, I simply run out of tricks in 38's, so that when the fight falls into a 1 on 5 situation im unable to go offensive in the 38, HOWEVER the 190 has a bag of tricks enabling it to fly and fight within the same gaggle, and just mabey land kills.
I dont want to take anything away from the 38 community its a challenge to fly, and has merit, it just isnt GREAt at anything, and has several failings due to its whieght, speed, and allison power plants, and in the crunch when the base is capped, and I need to gain seperation in a hurry, outside of an la7, the 190 is my best choice.
what happens when a 190 meets a p38?.... well it isnt certain, but id want to be in the 190.:aok
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3 190s, 1 typ, 1n1k2, and 1 p51 were not all that effective vs 1 38 in that 2nd film I just posted.
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oh yeh, hey guys "PICKING" as you call it is a lack of SA, and is not the fault of the guy racking up kills against slow turning aircraft.
You made the decision to engage, You lost initiative, and you will pay the price, arguments are moot when your sitting in the tower after having your ride blasted from beneath you.
in short,.... GROW UP!
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tap, tap, tap...Is this thing on?
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Originally posted by stephen
Upon realising that certain planes can enter the fray in a possision of thier choosing, close to range in a short time, and blast most anything into the tower in one pass, alot of players become bitter, and refuse to grant pilots the recognition for flying in a way that produces kills, followd by landing them.
So you want us to recognize you for being a timid cherry picker that can only fly in a hord? Okay. You're a timid cherry picker that can only fly in a hord.
I fly 190's ALOT, as my former fellow Rooks will atest to, and I land killz in it, so it has a special place in my heart, but this seeming hatred of any plane that boom and zooms well is miss guided, its not cheating, under handed, or cruel,...its flying.
If you dont like getting boom and zoomed by a plane made for it say so, but please dont miss lead all the new guys into believing a plane is inferior based on the fact that you hate the way we fly it.[/b]
Our assertions are based on recorded flight data. Yours is solely based on being a timid cherry picker (see, I gave you recognition again).
I dont want to one on one people, if I wanted to do that then YES I would pick somthing that turns well, but the 190 isnt about 1 on 1 and I refuse to be baited into a rigged contest to prove the merit of this plane,
I KNOW IT ROCKS...lol[/b]
You don't want a 1v1 because you know you'll be proven wrong and you can't face that fact (here comes the recognition part again) that you're just a typical timid cherry picker that flies the Dora.
My personal decision to fly the 190 over the p38 has alot to do with survivability, I simply run out of tricks in 38's, so that when the fight falls into a 1 on 5 situation im unable to go offensive in the 38, HOWEVER the 190 has a bag of tricks enabling it to fly and fight within the same gaggle, and just mabey land kills. [/b]
No, I think the real reason why you've never flown a P-38 is that it's a tad above your skill level. By your own admission, you only fly in a hord while you cherry pick, which means that you're one of the five and not the solo plane.
I dont want to take anything away from the 38 community its a challenge to fly, and has merit, it just isnt GREAt at anything, and has several failings due to its whieght, speed, and allison power plants, and in the crunch when the base is capped, and I need to gain seperation in a hurry, outside of an la7, the 190 is my best choice.[/b]
You're correct. The P-38 isn't great at anything, it's good at everything. It's a good Energy fighter, good turn fighter and a good attack plane. Very similiar to the Hellcat in this regard, a jack of all trades.
Your comments also show a severe lack of any knowledge or experience with the P-38, other than running from one when you see one.
what happens when a 190 meets a p38?.... well it isnt certain, but id want to be in the 190.:aok [/B]
We all know what will happen to a P-38 that meets your Dora. You'll just run from it until you find safety in a hord and then return to cherry pick with the rest of the hord.
So, to summarize your posts...if you want to run from a fight or are a timid pilot, fly a Dora.
ack-ack
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Hmm, guess its not working...Id swear Id just posted 2 examples of a P-38 being 5 on 1, and an example of a 190 with alt attacking a low P-38 :huh
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Originally posted by Murdr
I believe this is the film (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/film29_05124_0056.ahf) you are speaking of.
yup thats the one. He wont look at it. His fragile ego cant accept being wrong.
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Originally posted by stephen
oh yeh, hey guys "PICKING" as you call it is a lack of SA, and is not the fault of the guy racking up kills against slow turning aircraft.
You made the decision to engage, You lost initiative, and you will pay the price, arguments are moot when your sitting in the tower after having your ride blasted from beneath you.
in short,.... GROW UP!
So, the superiority you claim, for you and your plane of choice, is that you can sit on a perch, dive in and pick off a plane that is already engaged in a fight, and run like a sissy. You admit you never want to fight one on one, but rather you want to attempt to shoot down a plane that is already in a fight, and run away if you miss.
I don't really care how you fly. I don't really care what you fly. But don't enter a discussion about a comparison between planes and slobber a bunch of nonsensical drivel about you and your plane being superior because you like to BnZ/cherry pick/horde and you can run away if you do not hold every advantage.
Nothing personal, but all you brought to this discussion is a bunch of juvenile Bravo Sierra, and then you tell others to "grow up".:rolleyes: The only thing you have you can base your argument on is your position that you can "pick and run" well in a 190, and because you can run away, you HOPE you never have to face a superior pilot, superior plane, or superior odds, that you can't run away from.
Sorry, but if that's all the argument you have, you can prove superiority for nothing, least of all you and your plane of choice. In fact, you and your arguments do a great disservice to the plane, there are others who could have at least made a factual and sound argument for the FW 190. But you made it into a farce. Congratulations.
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Originally posted by stephen
oh yeh, hey guys "PICKING" as you call it is a lack of SA, and is not the fault of the guy racking up kills against slow turning aircraft.
You made the decision to engage, You lost initiative, and you will pay the price, arguments are moot when your sitting in the tower after having your ride blasted from beneath you.
in short,.... GROW UP!
You no longer fly, and have a hard time listening to anyone else, and we're supposed to grow up?
LOL interesting how that works:confused:
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Ack-Ack, good play by play, :cry
but yes ive flown the 38 a bit, though mostly in the jabo roll.
and if this much hated "picker" is represinitive of the way I fly, then yes I suppose I am one.
so egsactly what is th point my friend? you dont like me?,I can deal with that lol
:rofl
Captain Virgil Hilts,
complaining about the succesful tactics used against you is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer because it feels so good when you stop...
and by growing up, I mean stop whining about being shot down, and take resposibility for putting yourself in the possition to be shot down.
"your a picker!!!!" so what ? I dont pick exclusivly, and even if I did if your hanging out at 5k at 100 knots, you deserve to die.....Ive been offline for approx 2 weeks "that isnt my last name popceed", im sure the quality of pilots hasnt suddenly jumped in that time......
Look stop petting your ego, put away your childish whimpering ways, and ill be a rook by this fri, if that satisfy's you.
I rather look forward to the endless whine's from the bish.knits as they put themselves into bad possitions, and endlessly blame the other teams tactics for thier bad situational awareness.
go fly, and die, and whine, and accuse, somones got to do it I guess.:cry
my new account will be in the name Popsays, yo what is a shade account? and how do i get one?
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Originally posted by stephen
Ack-Ack, good play by play, :cry
but yes ive flown the 38 a bit, though mostly in the jabo roll.
and if this much hated "picker" is represinitive of the way I fly, then yes I suppose I am one.
so egsactly what is th point my friend? you dont like me?,I can deal with that lol
:rofl
I don't know you personally, so I really don't have an opinion of you as a person. All I know is what you've posted and all that you've shown is that you're a timid pilot that only cherry picks with a hord since that's all the skill you possess.
Savage is correct, you've done a great disservice to a fine plane. No one here has a problem with the Dora or any other of the FW190 variants. We've just corrected your misinformation about a plane that you admittedly fly timidly and cherry pick and will not engage in a 1v1.
The funny thing is that we are the ones that know more about the Dora than you do. All you know is how to fly timidly and will do so in any plane you fly because you lack the necessary skill to fly otherwise. It's not about how the Dora stacks up against the P-38 with you, it's about how to fly timidly regardless of the plane you're flying. You've just picked the Dora as your plane of choice since it's the easiest plane your limited skill set will allow you to run if in danger. If it was the P-51D that allowed you that option, that would be your plane of choice.
I'll offer the challenge once again, although I know you won't accept it because you know the outcome but it will provide us with a good chuckle seeing you make excuses not to take me up on my challenge. Which is also sad because you could walk away a better player for it instead of wallowing in timid mediocrity.
ack-ack
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Ack- Ack, mind if I take that challenge? I'm by no means a good pilot, but I can do the bnz thing (ish) and would love to see how you deal with that in a 38. Seriously, I've been flying the 38 for a couple times this tour (no kills) and would love to see how its really done (and no, I dont mind dying to find out) I'm working nights this at the moment, up until the 27th - but have the 27th night off if you can find time to school me in this.
Hopefully no-one is offended by this request - I'm asking as I want to get better in short order. Oh, and this request is to all of you p38 pilots......if you can spare the time that is.
Wurzel;)
*and yep, I know I'm going to get spanked royally...but its in a good cause*
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Next time you see me online, just holler.
ack-ack
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Thank you Ack-Ack - I get off work in a 1.5 hours if you'll be around then? No big deals if not - I can always die later :D
Wurzel
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How about this, Stephen... I'll start at 5k, you start at 10k, and I bet you won't be able to kill me and will be forced to run away.
Edit: I haven't played in months.
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. double post
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Originally posted by Fianna
How about this, Stephen... I'll start at 5k, you start at 10k, and I bet you won't be able to kill me and will be forced to run away.
Edit: I haven't played in months.
And even better, you start at 5k and I'll start at 10k. That way I can prove to you that the 38 is a better picker than the 190.
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If your online in a couple of hours Fianna, your on - and I doubt if I could kill you if you were flying blindfolded - :D
As I said, my reason for doing this is to see how a p38 should be flown - unlike by me;)
Wurzel
*Edited cos I'm a mong - Fianna, just noticed that was for Stephen - apologies fella - its early and i'm brain dead (or more brain dead than usual:) )
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Originally posted by gpwurzel
(and no, I dont mind dying to find out)
You meant "I'm dying to find out". ;)
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Lol, errrr, yes........but the result is a foregone conclusion......so think I'm accurate as well.....ish.....:p
:D
Wurzel
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Originally posted by stephen
oh yeh, hey guys "PICKING" as you call it is a lack of SA, and is not the fault of the guy racking up kills against slow turning aircraft.
You made the decision to engage, You lost initiative, and you will pay the price, arguments are moot when your sitting in the tower after having your ride blasted from beneath you.
in short,.... GROW UP!
just out of curiousity? when you're picking....and you're right....there's nothing wrong with that at all....i've done it, and had it done to me.....but....what happens when you're climbing back up to alt, and lo and behold there's a 38 up there waiting for ya? you have no e left, and can't manuever.....and yes it's happened...i've done that.....they were the only easy kills i've had as my gunnery sucks.....and they just wallowed trying to avoid giving me a shot.............you can't disengage if you've no e to at least force your nose over quickly......but hey........what the hack, right?:aok
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So you want us to recognize you for being a timid cherry picker that can only fly in a hord? Okay. You're a timid cherry picker that can only fly in a hord.
Our assertions are based on recorded flight data. Yours is solely based on being a timid cherry picker (see, I gave you recognition again).
You don't want a 1v1 because you know you'll be proven wrong and you can't face that fact (here comes the recognition part again) that you're just a typical timid cherry picker that flies the Dora.
No, I think the real reason why you've never flown a P-38 is that it's a tad above your skill level. By your own admission, you only fly in a hord while you cherry pick, which means that you're one of the five and not the solo plane.
You're correct. The P-38 isn't great at anything, it's good at everything. It's a good Energy fighter, good turn fighter and a good attack plane. Very similiar to the Hellcat in this regard, a jack of all trades.
Your comments also show a severe lack of any knowledge or experience with the P-38, other than running from one when you see one.
We all know what will happen to a P-38 that meets your Dora. You'll just run from it until you find safety in a hord and then return to cherry pick with the rest of the hord.
So, to summarize your posts...if you want to run from a fight or are a timid pilot, fly a Dora.
ack-ack
ack ack.......have you or anyone else noticed that he kinda keeps changing the conditions of the match to suit his argument?:D
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Originally posted by Murdr
Hmm, guess its not working...Id swear Id just posted 2 examples of a P-38 being 5 on 1, and an example of a 190 with alt attacking a low P-38 :huh
very good films to i might add.........i especially liked the 2nd one........i only wish i could make the 38 work that well..............
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I don't know you personally, so I really don't have an opinion of you as a person. All I know is what you've posted and all that you've shown is that you're a timid pilot that only cherry picks with a hord since that's all the skill you possess.
Savage is correct, you've done a great disservice to a fine plane. No one here has a problem with the Dora or any other of the FW190 variants. We've just corrected your misinformation about a plane that you admittedly fly timidly and cherry pick and will not engage in a 1v1.
The funny thing is that we are the ones that know more about the Dora than you do. All you know is how to fly timidly and will do so in any plane you fly because you lack the necessary skill to fly otherwise. It's not about how the Dora stacks up against the P-38 with you, it's about how to fly timidly regardless of the plane you're flying. You've just picked the Dora as your plane of choice since it's the easiest plane your limited skill set will allow you to run if in danger. If it was the P-51D that allowed you that option, that would be your plane of choice.
I'll offer the challenge once again, although I know you won't accept it because you know the outcome but it will provide us with a good chuckle seeing you make excuses not to take me up on my challenge. Which is also sad because you could walk away a better player for it instead of wallowing in timid mediocrity.
ack-ack
:D
a six pack of fosters says he doesn't do it........and film it too.......:D
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Originally posted by gpwurzel
Ack- Ack, mind if I take that challenge? I'm by no means a good pilot, but I can do the bnz thing (ish) and would love to see how you deal with that in a 38. Seriously, I've been flying the 38 for a couple times this tour (no kills) and would love to see how its really done (and no, I dont mind dying to find out) I'm working nights this at the moment, up until the 27th - but have the 27th night off if you can find time to school me in this.
Hopefully no-one is offended by this request - I'm asking as I want to get better in short order. Oh, and this request is to all of you p38 pilots......if you can spare the time that is.
Wurzel;)
*and yep, I know I'm going to get spanked royally...but its in a good cause*
even those of us that pretty much suck in it? i'd love to have some 1-1 fun in it.......win or lose......i'd only ask one thing of ya.....film the fights? i'll be out of town from the 22nd till the 2nd.........
let me know by pm or here, ok? my ingame is 1ltcap
<>
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Originally posted by Fianna
And even better, you start at 5k and I'll start at 10k. That way I can prove to you that the 38 is a better picker than the 190.
:aok :D :rofl :aok
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Hey Cap, yep, even those who suck in it.....each and every fight is a learning experience fella.....
I would most certainly film it (I try to film most fights I have - so I can see where i went wrong, or modify my tactics for next time round)
Will be a pleasure to go 1 v 1 with ya m8,
I'm normally around a lot on my weeks off, so will keep an eye out for ya
Wurzel
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My squad flies specifically German aircraft. I fly 109's normally, but many times I fly 190 a-5's or a-8's.
If any of you experten would like to fly a few rounds wherever (TA, MA, DA), I'd love to get some lessons. I'm all about learning to fly my Aircraft of choice better!
:aok Just give me a shout!
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..but....what happens when you're climbing back up to alt, and lo and behold there's a 38 up there waiting for ya?
Simple.
You shoot the 190 down, and then log it down at a page of the , and then wipe it from your memory :D
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blah blah blah, ill look you boys up if youd like, sick of this whimpering about running away....I can talk till im blue in the face, the poing is that the 51 IS BETTER AT RUNNING AWAY, and it takes skill to kill in a 190.
and if you are really willing to start with a 5k disadvantage im going to bore holes in your plane with bullets kid...
your using me as a soap box to hate on flying characteristics you dont like, the only thing your going to teach me is how to mouth off more efectivly, and im not intrested in talking dodo.
nothing to prove to you other than mabey one day youll learn stop looking at data, and start flying with instinct.
run run run, you want a guy to turn so you can kill him, ive seen the like a hundred times..... and know what ive never taken the bait once, so keep yammering willy nilly, the noobs might be impressed but im not, on the morrow my friend "ack-ack" aka "The Mouth":aok
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No one could teach you how to mouth off more effectively. You'll never be more than an annoyance. Not really intelligent, not really amusing, not even entertaining, just annoying.
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You can tell someone has no arguement when they start name-calling.
When 190 has E it has a better chance of survival because it can disengage.
When Co-E the 190 may be able to disengage.
When 190 does not have E it cannot disengage nor out turn the opponent
When the P38 has E it can engage/disengage at will
When the P38 has Co E it can outperform the 190 until the 190 disengages
When the P38 has less E, it can utilize its turning characteristics to evade.
So I think the P38's ability to evade pushes the P38 over the top in a 190 vs P38 engagement.
Above 25k the P38 out performs the 190 in all aspects. During DGS P38s would cruise along and if 190s appeared at co alt they would soon end up diving below 20k. The P38s would disengage and climb back up to 30k. The 190s were not able to climb back up to combat alt in time to intercept the bombers. Basically in DGS if we made the 190s dive it was just as effective as if we had shot them down because they would not be able to reach the bombers.
I have not flown this much this tour so looking to last tour:
I had 85 kills in a P38L and only 1 death to a 190 of any type.
Of my kills 7 were 190s (all types)
Raptor Tour 94 Stats
Top planes I shot down
Kills of
Lanc: 15
Spit: 15
La: 12
F4U: 8
F6F: 8
190: 7
P51: 7
Killed by
Spit: 5
P51: 3
F6F: 3
F4U: 2
La: 2
190: 1
Lanc: 1
Ignoring the Lancasters, that gave me the following K/D ratios:
Against Spitfires: 3
Against Las: 6
Against F4Us: 4
Against F6Fs: 2.67
Against 190s: 7
Against P51s: 2.33
Interestingly enough, my highest k/d ratio was against 190s
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all I hear is a bunch of whining about running away, when the pilots most important goal is to win, the 190d9 eccels in diving into th fight, killing an unwary opponent, then escaping even the vaunted p51.
when you land 5 kills in the thing fellow country men applaud, and the nme does what they do best, whine.....
"I want a 1on1" arial combat is not a 1 on 1 event, we do not approach an nme whom we know holds a supperior advantage. if possible we stab him in the back whilst hes not paying attention.
"All you do is run !!" you simply have not enter the fight in a position "or a plane" capable of following an ingagment to its final conclusion.
"you cherry picked me!" you have not been aware of what is going on around you, and have fallen victim because you have not observed the rules of dogfighting.
this is fair this isnt fair, wwwwah!
:cry speak of running, talk of picking, you want somone to hold dead level at 200mph and accept your BS and I aint buyin it.
simply put boom and zoom is a learnd art, you turn fighters are the less informed, repeatedly lashing out against a tactic that is obviously better than your own, heck no im not gonna turn fight you, or stick around when your higher, unfortunatly the grand majority of mouths around here arent happy unless you fly to thier specifications......
I dont care how good you and your simplton plane is, if the other plots leaves and engages later at an advantage,.. you still die.
Any world war 2 surviving pilot would scoff at what your suggesting.."a fair fight?" since when is life fair? I wonder how you can possibly continue to debate this fact... "your obviously not a skilled pilot because your only capable of running when an nme plane is in a supperior position..." NO DUH!!! try this... assume your life is egsactly one kill away from ending......then take up the plane of your choice.
I care for my country and thats it, your opinions are worthless, the 38 is worthless, and the endless debate about which is better is worthless, because in the end I might just decide its better to land kills, or I might chop pieces off that junk pile you call a plane. either way its up to ME and has nothing to do with how much you whine on 200.
GROW UP= being responsible for your own actions/inaction.... if you where any kind of pilot you'd up what is obviously the harder plane to fly effectivly, i.e. the 190, it has tourqe, doesnt turn worth spit, and has shorter legs, and worse balistics,.....yet I still here all this tripe about the newby loving 38. I \m gonna get back on because of this little debate kids, and god I hope I run against one of you guys in DA right when you think your about to get the uper hand on one of my rooks, a pleasure it will be to hurry your return to the tower, and a pleasure it will be to hear you whine over 200.:D
oh yeh, I wonder why out of all these wise guys on this board, not one has ever shot me down?... oh no I dont because you cant catch me..lol see you round tommorow boys..and I do mean boys, little boys, with big ego's and no sense, and mabey even a little to much time on thier hands, but a poets way of blabbering on without saying much at all, god I love this game, and I realise now I was a fool to leave.....but yeh the 38 is junk, its easily slipped away from by split S'ing above 300 ias., the elevator stinks, and so do you!!! ROOKS!!!!!!:cry
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Stephen, you are not a WW2 pilot. I hate to break it to ya but we're flying cartoon airplanes in an online environment. Your survivalist excuse is just that.
If it's your choice to fly so that you always have the odds in your favor and every tactical advantage so be it.
But don't make it about the plane. Take some of these guys up on a 1 v 1 engagement and see how it turns out.
But don't hide behind the old I fly it like WW2, cause it's not.
A WW2 D9 pilot did not get to pick his airfield, or the battle of his choosing. He was on the defensive, more then likely to get attacked on the ground and most definately going to be facing overwhelming odds.
If you are going to 'fly like a WW2 pilot" then put yourself in their shoes and survive. Oh and BTW if you get killed, you don't get a new plane and don't get to go up again.
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"Why have none of you shot me down"
Easy... you've not been playing for some time now...
Please Stephen explain why I had 7 190 kills for every 190 that shot me down?
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not flying for you, its been over a year I bet since some newb in a 38 tried to get me into a rope a dope, and just tlike a thousnad times before and after that I didnt accept, I flew away in search of greener pastures, im not affraid to admit so, so why are you afraid to fly 190's?
to answer, the 190 was developed with the purpose of out pacing allied aircraft, i.e. out running, which is why it does what it does so well.
To accomplish this goal two cannons where deleated, and a more streamlined engine with greater power was introduced.
True, this plane was pounced upon alomost every time it left the ground , and this was taken into consideration as well.
Its not a dogfighter, its an interceptor.... made to fly against greater odds, and bring its pilot home whilst maintaning an advantage in speed.
what alarms me is the fact that it can be flown so effectivly in this game with its missmatch of types, and flying styles...this is no newb plane, and I take it as a seriouse mark of idiocy that people refer to it as EZ to get kills in.
I love the 38 the same way I love the p47, its rugged, manueverable in its element, and has great firepower and range, and if perhaps I was a diffrent person I would prefer it, but I dont....because they just dont incite the kind of rage amongst victims that the 190d9 does, and they are heavy aircraft...the 190 is twitchy, unforfiving in a hard turn, and even harder to get killz in. Its a plane I have yet to master even though ive favord it for 7 years, yet every time I fly it, it teaches me a new angle from which to hit the nme, and it allows so many options in an engagment that the nme can be caught off balance, or as you say scurried away from.
the 38 is an older design with diffrent intentions in mind, and is inferior in a skilled pilots hand, because, IT CAN NOT DICTATE THE FIGHT IN A CO ALT/SPEED MERGE.
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Your Original arguement was how superior the 190 was to the P38...
Now your arguement is the 190 takes more skill to fly than the P38. You've committed arguemental suicide and contradicted yourself.
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you are grasping at straws, because both are true.. next?
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Stephan should have titled this thread, "Confessions of a Timid Pilot: How I learned to run in a Dora."
ack-ack
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Originally posted by stephen
not flying for you, its been over a year I bet since some newb in a 38 tried to get me into a rope a dope, and just tlike a thousnad times before and after that I didnt accept, I flew away in search of greener pastures, im not affraid to admit so, so why are you afraid to fly 190's?
I doubt anyone here is "afraid" to fly the 190. They just all know it is a "one-trick-pony." Doing only one thing gets boring after a while.
Generally speaking, I wouldn't consider any one-trick-pony plane to be "superior." Get into a situation where your one trick doesn't work, and you are toast. The P-38 is more versitile, so I would consider it to be the better of the two aircraft (although I personally still don't care for it).
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well if you do that trick well enough, {i,e, enter at hi speed, make a firing pass, and extend to do it all over again} you end up with a stalion...geez sorry fo the horse analogy's:D
I hardly think this plane is capable of one trick only, you can rope a dope, energy fight, or just make an inferior handling plane smash into the ground, heck ive bounced many an la'7 into the ground just when thier fangs where hanging out the most, because the dont realise the 190 has much better elevator aithority at hi speed, this plane is a magic bullet for almost anything if flown right,...
and personaly if I escape a bad situation, I preferto think of it as a victory, because I might have denied a better pilot a kill, if this isnt relivant to your arguments I dont care...we simply fly by diffeent rules.
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Originally posted by stephen
the 38 is an older design with diffrent intentions in mind, and is inferior in a skilled pilots hand, because, IT CAN NOT DICTATE THE FIGHT IN A CO ALT/SPEED MERGE.
If the P-38 cannot dictate the fight in an even merge, then why would you run from one in your supposedly superior plane, with your supposedly superior skills?
I'd say it's because you suck as a pilot and you cannot do justice to a plane that flown by anyone with real skill and talent could offer a good fight and emerge victorious in many fights.
Boy, I hope you fly a lot better than you argue, because you argue like a two year old.
Let me know when you log on as a Rook, so I can swap countries.
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because if I continue on a level course, and the 38 turns 180 degrees to follow me, he WILL have a lower energy state and I can rope him..{in a co alt co E merge}
the superiority is purely up to the pilot, even a temp can be flown to its destruction by bad decision's. ...Next?
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Originally posted by stephen
becasue if I continue on a level course, and the 38 turns 180 degrees to follow me, he WILL have a lower energy state and I can rope him...next?
If you think so.:rofl
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so your saying a 190 that merges with a 38 co alt and co speed, it will be caught by a 38 that has to turn 180 degrees to follow?
who's not making sense now?
without a clear advantage in speed, a fight is really up to whomever makes the least mistakes, I tell you what though ...A 38 aint gonna bug out fast enough co alt so a 190 cant follow him,...honestly tell me, can a 38 catch a 190 that doesnt want to be caught?
and to take the argument further, can the 38 keep the 190 from reversing out of view range ad making another pass?....NO it cant, and it cant run away either, so as I said before, if there is no clear adantage in piloting, or alt/speed only the 190 can dictate the fight....all the 190 has to do is not turn until its far enough away to succesfuly re-engage, heck tell me if my thinking is wrong....:D
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Originally posted by stephen
so your saying a 190 that merges with a 38 co alt and co speed, will be caught by a 38 that has to turn 180 degrees to follow?
who's not making sense now?
You.
Because it depends entirely on speed, altitude, and WHICH 190. Not to mention how each pilot flies the merge.
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sorry, im refering only to the 190D-9, as its mostly the only one i fly.the A-5 is admitidly much easier to kill {if im flying it}, and the A-8 is only good against bombers, or when ho'ing in my opinion, though somtimes it might get lucky and jump an unwary pilot
to tell you the truth I dont merge with much turn in the dora, unless im trying to avoid a HO, or there is another nme A/C pouncing.
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Ummm, did I read the above correctly? One guy says they have to be co-alt and co-speed, and the next guy says he's not making sense because he hasn't specified speed and altitude.:lol Ok, maybe it means that if both are at 10k the fight will have different results than if both are at 20k, but equal pilot skill has to be assumed in this kind of conversation.
Let's face it. Assuming equal pilot skill, an altitude of 10k ft, and equal speed, some aircraft will kill more than others.
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your not making sense,so why are you laughing? Niether is speed,altitude or the ammount of beer both party's have inbibed....energy states are not specified in this thread, nor is the off angle of intercept in the merge, so i gather this debate is rather pointless unless its continud in the MA:lol
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Do it stephen..
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Originally posted by stephen
and if you are really willing to start with a 5k disadvantage im going to bore holes in your plane with bullets kid...
Awesome!!
Let me know when you sign back on, and we can go to the DA. You climb to 10k in the Dora, I'll be at 5k in a 38J.
Then we can do a co-alt merge.
Then we'll do a merge with me at 10k and you at 5k.
I'd be surprised if I lost one.
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Ummm, did I read the above correctly? One guy says they have to be co-alt and co-speed, and the next guy says he's not making sense because he hasn't specified speed and altitude.:lol Ok, maybe it means that if both are at 10k the fight will have different results than if both are at 20k, but equal pilot skill has to be assumed in this kind of conversation.
Let's face it. Assuming equal pilot skill, an altitude of 10k ft, and equal speed, some aircraft will kill more than others.
I'll explain this to you in terms you MAY be able to grasp.
The altitude matters, because:
A. Performance is dissimilar between the planes, the advantage depends on altitude.
B. How you make the reversal depends on the altitude you are at.
C. Options are determined by altitude.
The speed matters because:
A. Dissimilar ability to accelerate at different speeds.
B. Dissimilar aerobatic performance at different speeds.
C. Options are determined by speed as well.
Only a fool would assume the same result if the merge occurred at 250MPH at 25K or if the merge occurred at 350MPH at 2K.
There is no assumed altitude or assumed speed given.
Equal pilot skill cannot be assumed, either. Given the statements made in this "discussion" it is obvious one pilot has only one skill set, while the other pilot may have several skill sets.
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Stephen you never answered why I have more kills against 190s than 190s against my P38.
On a merge co alt co E, who is to say the P38 has to turn a flat 180º? What happens if it does a loop instead?
Gasp!
He retains his E!
OH NOES!
Also what if the P38 flies straight and level at merge to extend to 6k then turn back? Both planes are capable of this.
Stephen you're now saying "The 190 suites my style of fighting the best" which is a legitimate statement.
Saying "The 190 is superior to the P38" is not.
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Originally posted by stephen
heck tell me if my thinking is wrong....:D
You'll find out. :D
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Originally posted by stephen
so your saying a 190 that merges with a 38 co alt and co speed, it will be caught by a 38 that has to turn 180 degrees to follow?
who's not making sense now?
without a clear advantage in speed, a fight is really up to whomever makes the least mistakes, I tell you what though ...A 38 aint gonna bug out fast enough co alt so a 190 cant follow him,...honestly tell me, can a 38 catch a 190 that doesnt want to be caught?
and to take the argument further, can the 38 keep the 190 from reversing out of view range ad making another pass?....NO it cant, and it cant run away either, so as I said before, if there is no clear adantage in piloting, or alt/speed only the 190 can dictate the fight....all the 190 has to do is not turn until its far enough away to succesfuly re-engage, heck tell me if my thinking is wrong....:D
By the way, your post is so full of holes and assumptions that to properly demonstrate the over abundance of fallacies would take hours.
Assumption: The P-38 is going to flat turn toward the speeding 190. False.
Assumption: The P-38 is going to wander along aimlessly and thoughtlessly while the 190 "extends":rolleyes: to gain the advantage. False. Again.
Assumption: Speed always dictates the fight. You wish. But false. Again.
Only a fool is going to blow all his speed and energy turning a P-38 to merge with a 190.
Only an idiot is going to watch a 190 blow past and just fly straight and level while the 190 sets up for another pass.
A 190 will not out run and out accelerate a P-38 at all speeds and all altitudes.
And that's JUST the really obvious stupidity in your post.
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Originally posted by stephen
because if I continue on a level course, and the 38 turns 180 degrees to follow me, he WILL have a lower energy state and I can rope him..{in a co alt co E merge}
If the P-38 pilot knows what he's doing, you won't be able to rope him. In fact, it will end up a reverse rope as you will stall out before the P-38 and he'll just get you as you drop by in your stall. That's the beauty of the P-38, its far superior vertical performance over any of the FW190s.
The drop in energy on the turn after merge will be minimul for the P-38 since the turn will be nose down and no more than 3Gs. In fact, the P-38 is most likely to come out with more energy after the nose low turn than what they entered with.
Enjoy.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If the P-38 pilot knows what he's doing, you won't be able to rope him. In fact, it will end up a reverse rope as you will stall out before the P-38 and he'll just get you as you drop by in your stall. That's the beauty of the P-38, its far superior vertical performance over any of the FW190s.
The drop in energy on the turn after merge will be minimul for the P-38 since the turn will be nose down and no more than 3Gs. In fact, the P-38 is most likely to come out with more energy after the nose low turn than what they entered with.
Enjoy.
ack-ack
Hell be too busy run... extending to 6k away to think what the 38 is doing.
He is the typical pick and run mook. Don't get em on the initial pass he'll run across the map not to get shot down. That's why he's in the 190.
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What would you do if after the pass the p-38 climbs, while your extending you will never be able to get above the 38! go as far as you want but the 38 will be higher then you at all times. You will never get the chance to have more e! Oh yea I guess you could just never turn around, guess then you would never die, heck you might have taken more fuel and the 38 will run out faster and has to ditch before you do. I guess that could be a win, but wait the 38 has alot more range, shoot that will not work.
Nick172
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Anyone says that any FW-190 in the game can compete with the P-38 in a fair fight doesn't know the two aircraft very well. The only way the FW-190 can even survive, assuming both pilots know their ships, is if it's a D model and the pilot simply runs.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Anyone says that any FW-190 in the game can compete with the P-38 in a fair fight doesn't know the two aircraft very well. The only way the FW-190 can even survive, assuming both pilots know their ships, is if it's a D model and the pilot simply runs.
nope ^
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Originally posted by stephen
arial combat is not a 1 on 1 event, we do not approach an nme whom we know holds a supperior advantage. if possible we stab him in the back whilst hes not paying attention.
Who is this "we"? I do, often with success.
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Originally posted by Fianna
Awesome!!
Let me know when you sign back on, and we can go to the DA. You climb to 10k in the Dora, I'll be at 5k in a 38J.
Then we can do a co-alt merge.
Then we'll do a merge with me at 10k and you at 5k.
I'd be surprised if I lost one.
I'd win the 1st one, maybe the 2nd (don't know how good a stick you are, or what luck you may carry with you :D) but I would probably (edit) not win the 3rd.
Originally posted by Raptor
Stephen you're now saying "The 190 suites my style of fighting the best" which is a legitimate statement.
Saying "The 190 is superior to the P38" is not.
I agree wholeheartedly with this Raptor. The plane you're most effective in will be the one you're most comfortable with. In AH we have the luxury to fly whichever type we want. Purely technically speaking it's rather easy to say which planes are better than others, just look at the performance figures. As soon as you add in the human factor, it becomes slightly less predictable. :)
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Practically every sortie I up in a 190, usually the D-9. I've learnt the hard way to be wary of 38's until I get a feel of the pilot's skill level. You can get a good sense of a pilot's capability in the merge, then you'll know whether you can push it or try to extend to disengage, assuming the fight start out with roughly equal E.
If I have a E advantage (something I strive for being a Dora pilot) I'm always certain of a kill unless the opponent is skilled enough to repeatedly avoid my shots or someone shows up to help him. If you find yourself in a fair fight flying any 190, you've decieved yourself because it's not, you're the sitting duck. That's the biggest disadvantage of the 190.
There's pretty much only one way to fly the 190 and it's fast, as fast as you can. Start turning and you're doomed. Simple facts, it's no secret. There's no über trick to it. You just have to learn what you can, and can't, do with (and against) each plane type.
Arguing that plane type A is so much better than plane type B is pointless imo. Performance figures are factual, not debatable, assuming the figures are correct. In all cases of air combat it's a mix of pilot skill, opportunity, planning (if you're smart) and sometimes just blind luck. Sure a/c performace has a impact, but is easily offset by any of the above.
Just my €0.02 :p
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Originally posted by montein
What would you do if after the pass the p-38 climbs,
Nick172
I will hit WEP, start to climb with it, and let my 30mm's loose :]
Or 20mm's if I took that package...
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Originally posted by trigger2
I will hit WEP, start to climb with it, and let my 30mm's loose :]
Or 20mm's if I took that package...
So merging co-alt, and co-E, you're going to reverse into a P-38 that is going away, and climbing? :rofl And then you're going to climb to it? :rofl
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I'm just speaking from my own experience here, but I don't think that any 190 will win any sort of "fight" against any P-38 (i.e. 190A-F, Ta-152, P-38G-L). The 190s in this game are kind of just lumbering dumptrucks, they used to be much more manueverable and dangerous (going back to AH1 days, anyway).
That said, the 190 is just manueverable enough that if you can catch the P-38 pilot off guard you can end a fight quickly, providing you hit the shot you get.
Co-E is the hardest fight for me if I'm in a 190. If I have an E advantage, I can generally manage to convert that to a killing shot. If I am at an E disadvantage, I can generally force an enemy pilot into bleeding off his excess energy trying to get a clean shot. Probably about 1/10 of the time, I get killed, 4/10 of the time the con blows his E, but stays fast enough to fly in front of me (and I hit the shot), and about half the time I miss the shot.
From there I can fight if I think the other guy is completely incompetent, or run if I think he has a quarter of a clue. Because co-E, no 190 has any shot at winning a fight against any model P-38 (or any model anything, really). Craptacular slow speed handling combined with atrocious turn performance pretty much guarantees that. The acceleration also really isn't anything to write home about.
Of course, in the MA the D-9 is used by folks who should really be in the La-7, but would never take advantage of the La-7s far superior manueverability (plus there is the stigma of using the "EZ MODE" plane). The D-9 is a good cherry picker, and as long as you keep it around 375 mph and fly in long straight lines, you will be able to maintain a decent K/D ratio.
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Originally posted by Urchin
providing you hit the shot you get.
word
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Originally posted by Urchin
Of course, in the MA the D-9 is used by folks who should really be in the La-7, but would never take advantage of the La-7s far superior manueverability
No, we fly it because of better ENY (=more perks) and we hate to have an empty tank 1 min after arrival at an enemy base ;)
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
So merging co-alt, and co-E, you're going to reverse into a P-38 that is going away, and climbing? :rofl And then you're going to climb to it? :rofl
not climb TO it, if you think about it, you don't need to be right next to the p38 to shoot it, it's a huge plane, if it's within d800 i can take out the wings easy, d1000, with a touch of luck, I can take off some stuff. If you pull up and bring it over the top after the merge into a p38, your going to be doing what it did, and you'll be in about d400, well in range of guns. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by trigger2
not climb TO it, if you think about it, you don't need to be right next to the p38 to shoot it, it's a huge plane, if it's within d800 i can take out the wings easy, d1000, with a touch of luck, I can take off some stuff. If you pull up and bring it over the top after the merge into a p38, your going to be doing what it did, and you'll be in about d400, well in range of guns. :rolleyes:
You should pay attention to what Urchin said...
Tell ya what, you take your 190A-8 (or any other 190) and I'll take a P-38J or L. We'll meet at A100 on the TA map. We'll take off in opposite directions. When we fly out of icon range, we both reverse into a cold merge. Guns hot thereafter.
Bring a stop watch, 'cause it won't last 60 seconds. That assumes you don't extend 5 miles...
I'll be in the TA Wednesday and Thursday evenings next week, after 9 PM Eastern.
My regards,
Widewing
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60 seconds? That may be fun to try.
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Originally posted by killnu
60 seconds? That may be fun to try.
It is fun. It's especially fun when dueling in dissimilar planes.
"How the heck did you get turned around so quick?!", is the usual reaction.
Something I learned years ago watching films from Drex and Leviathn.... That, and lots of practice and several thousand duels, fighting the best in the game.
Co-E the 190 is toast against the P-38. Dueling from icon range means that the 190 will never have an E advantage on the merge.
Another fun dueling set-up is the "cage match". This means taking off from the same field, but you must remain inside the confines of the field. It's best fought on a mid or large size field. Before killshooter was turned on in the DA, this was a great way to learn how to stall fight. Now, you're confined to the TA, which means a certain amount of honesty is required. IE: admitting when you've been clobbered. When we do this in the TA, any hit to the cockpit glass is considered a killing shot. This works well when we have our 3v1 clinics. Film shows that most guys can be depended upon to be honest.
My regards,
Widewing
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When I first saw this topic I was firmly in the 38 camp. I still am for all the reasons mentioned, but I think in the hands of a good pilot the 190d should be able to get an E advantage at the merge. Once above the 38 the 190 has to B&Z hoping to land a good snapshot.
Tux and I tried it in the DA a week ago. I (190) got on top and could of stayed above all day. After awhile I attempted to lag turn him and had to level out and run once he started beating me around the circle. 1 fight doesn't tell the tale, but I feel the question is this: can the 190 win a zoom contest at the merge without getting becoming a Hispano Kabob? I think so. At a cold merge, the 190 has ~ 50 mph advantage and holds speed very well. Get on top without being shot, force the 38 to drop his nose first, then maintain alt advantage, never turning.
In this situation I would give the 190 the edge. Achieving an E advantage and forcing the other plane to be defensive is a win in my book. Even if the 38 dodges your snapshots all day he has lost the initiative.
IMO any other attempt to beat the 38 will result in a burning crater or an early dinner back at base after you ran like a cat on fire. Thats why I am still in the 38 camp for most fights/pilots.
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Originally posted by Virage
At a cold merge, the 190 has ~ 50 mph advantage and holds speed very well. Get on top without being shot, force the 38 to drop his nose first, then maintain alt advantage, never turning.
Co-E the P38 will be able to out climb the 190. Especially in a vertical climb.
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Originally posted by Raptor
Co-E the P38 will be able to out climb the 190. Especially in a vertical climb.
This is true. What is misleading about E is that Kinetic energy takes mass AND velocity into account. So to be truely "co-e" the 190 would have to be moving a lot faster then the 38 to make up for the extra mass the 38 carries.
According to the AHII Plane data:
P-38 J
8,981 Kg
approx. 627 Kph (WEP) @ 17,500ft
190D
4,300 Kg
approx. 692Kph (WEP) @ 17,500ft
The speeds are approximate but i think most would agree they are close.
With that data we can calculate that a 38J at full speed has 136 MJ (mega joules) of Kinetic Energy plus 469 MJ potential energy.
The 190D would have 81.3 MJ kinetic and 225 MJ potential energies.
This means that a 190 at WEP going for a clean merge with a 38 at WEP is already at a 40% energy disadvantage, and thats only if we don't take into account the potential energy. Total energy disadvantage is nearly 50%
I might be missing something here but it would seem that just looking at energy the 190 has a LOT of ground to make up it it wants to get "above" the 38 energy-wise. To be co-e in kinetic energy the 190 would have to be moving at about 564 mph.
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2 20mm + 2 30mm vs big target means 190a8 only has to look at a p38 for it to go kablooie.
beyond that the p38 has superior performance in all areas except dive where the 38 turns into a brick at 400 the 190 can go beyond 500.
at least the top speed advantage saves the 190s vs the p38s.
the real problem for 190s is the la7. the la7 out climbs/dive/turns/speeds the 190a's by a wide margin and the d9 below 10k.
btw I hate la7s and everyone who flies them is a lamer.
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From my fights with Vater/Virage in the DA (him in 190, me in 38) it seems that the 190 needs a speed or alt advantage at the merge if it's going to win, but if it's flown by a competent pilot who sticks to E-fighting it has a chance. I didn't film the fights since we were just messing around, but it was basically take off from the 6k fields in the DA, head to the middle of the island, and have at it. For the first fight, I was in the 38 and did not use WEP until after the merge, so Vater could have had anywhere from a 15 to a 50mph speed advantage in the 190D. I was a little too agressive on the first reversal, which resulted in me having to dodge some B&Z's, but managed to get Vater to abandon that strategy out of boredom when he couldn't kill me that way. Once he committed to a closer fight and started trying for angles he lost control of the fight and was forced to extend and re-merge.
Some things to note are that Vater is a better stick than I am and that I made a mistake after the initial merge, giving him the initiative for the next minute or two. If he wasn't playing on a laptop with a dialup connection he may have been able to get a killing shot in, but as it was he was only able to take off one of my ailerons. If Vater had committed to an angles fight right away instead of using energy tactics, he probably would have either been forced to extend or attempt an overshoot since the 38 will make up angles no problem using flaps once the fight gets slower.
To sum it up:
-coE the 190 should probably run once the fight starts going south
-with a speed advantage and a good pilot the 190D can attempt to gain the upper hand by conserving E
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So basically after all this we can agree that a 190D9 with alt and E can control when he engages a 38 and that a 190D9 pilot co alt and co-E should put the nose down and run because he can out dive a 38?
Could we then agree that those flying 190D9s are more likely to be 'survivalist" AH pilots and the guys who fly the 38s are guys who tend to get in there and mix it up with less regard for "living"?
I'm not suggesting that either is better or worse as it's the player's dime he's flying on.
Only speaking for myself and my 38G, I know part of the fun for me is to try and defeat the guys with the alt and the E. But that's just me as I'm not concerned with my 'survival' in the MA.
I know I flew my 38 differently in the DGS scenario as "living" mattered. I can't bring myself to think it does in the MA. Guess I'm not patient enough in the MA world :)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Could we then agree that those flying 190D9s are more likely to be 'survivalist" AH pilots and the guys who fly the 38s are guys who tend to get in there and mix it up with less regard for "living"?
Unless of course they have a wingman. ;)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
that a 190D9 pilot co alt and co-E should put the nose down and run because he can out dive a 38?
Could we then agree that those flying 190D9s are more likely to be 'survivalist" AH pilots and the guys who fly the 38s are guys who tend to get in there and mix it up with less regard for "living"?
No.. There's enough possibility for one (or maybe two with lots of luck) kill shot that it's worth fighting even for only one or two reverses.
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Ive seen enough 38L's flying into the ground to negate the 80th's desire for the fight.
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Originally posted by killnu
Ive seen enough 38L's flying into the ground to negate the 80th's desire for the fight.
Must have been a 38G if it was augering :)
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Originally posted by Virage
I think in the hands of a good pilot the 190d should be able to get an E advantage at the merge.
It can't be done if both pilots know their ships. The P-38 has a vastly better climb rate than the FW-190 under all circumstances. If the FW-190 tries to extend and then climb, the P-38 can simply climb and it'll still end up above the FW-190. All the FW-190 can do in the way of fighting is extend, turn around, and try to go for a head-on. If the P-38 flier dodges the head-on, this cycle will continue until the FW-190 runs out of fuel or else runs home.
So, once more, the FW-190 stands no chance against the P-38 unless the FW-190 has a large advantage. Even then, the P-38 will turn the tables if the engagement drags on long enough. In which case, again, the FW-190's only option is to run.
In brief, the P-38 is absolutely superior to the FW-190 as a dogfighter. The FW-190 is only superior to the P-38 as a "cherry picker."
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The dora only has massive engine power over the 38 (as its only true 'overwhelming' advantage) and higher speed retention (38 cant dive, level off and retain high speed as well as the dora does).
The reason why you see the 190d9 having better stats is for two simple reasons:
-D9 is not used for ground attack roles. P-38 is.. routinely.
-D9 is much more survivable as it requires a lot less thinking and skill from the pilot during a fight.
The 2nd point is perhaps the reason why most that face the 190d9 end up thinking its either an uber airplane or the pilot in it is very good.. when in fact its neither.
You see, its the same issue as the La7. The D9's engine and its massive WEP boost allows the pilot to compensate for the majority of his mistakes mighty quickly. The 38 instead, relies on its mix of abilities and benefits to make up for these mistakes (most imply shooting down the opponent rather than running away from it).
The mistake that d9 pilots are seen doing over...and over... and over again is entering a turn fight against a plane that is a much better turner than the D9 is. The D9 allows these mistakes to be corrected simply by diving with WEP on or climbing away after some separation is gained with WEP on. WEP WEP WEP. Without it the D9 cannot fix the mistakes of its pilots. Show me a D9 that is out of WEP and i'll show you a plane that wont survive the next dogfight it gets into.
This WEP however, does not make the D9 'better' than the P38. The 38 is a plane of versatility, a bag of many tricks and capabilities... where the dora has but the WEP trick and no more.
I remember a fight I had with Urchin a long time ago.. he was in his Dora (he was a 190/Ta-152 freak back then) and i was in my 38L. We went at it for a LONG time going from I believe it was 32k down to 12k before he broke off. As he was at d1.1k and doing his WEP climb away from me I shot him down.
Mighty piss match in chat and in forums after a bit.. he couldn't believe I could've shot him down from such range. All I could say was ... well.... neither could out-fly the other one but one of us had to win... and I won by using the one little thing my lil' 38 has that his vulcherbird didnt: flat trajectory, long range, nose quad 50 cal guns. I spent a good amount of ammo in short bursts (i didnt use tracers) as he did his lazy climb looking for the correct lead on the gun..when I saw the first hit sprite I emptied the 50 cal guns on him. 1400 rounds even at that long range the hits snapped his wing out.
As a 38 I could NOT run away from him. If I had he wouldve just turned his dora around and kept climbing while catching up with me at the same time then starting another round of that dogfight with me at a disadvantage. If i had dived his dora would've cought me in a worse situation. If i had simply followed him level keeping speed he wouldve gained alt on me anyway. This kind of things is what makes the D9 and the 38 different birds on their own right. a 38 pilot must be very aggressive and know his airplane.. the D9 pilot relies too much on his WEP to fix his flying problems.
Thankfully, Urchin has seen the light and has been known to fly the 38 from time to time ;)
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if only the planes performance numbers were all that mattered...
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"Get on top without being shot, force the 38 to drop his nose first"
That in itself is a problem for most 190 pilots. Unless you have a very good E advantage (50mph is not a good advantage) over the 38, going into the vertical and hoping the 38 drops his nose first will end up with a kill for the 38.
counter-rotating props you see... that nose stays pointed up with no control issues even to stall point (40mph). The 190 starts shaking and twisting at around 120mph. If both planes are flying upwards and the 38 is behind you at a lower speed that just means that your 190 cannot outrun the hail of 50 cal being sent your way. You cannot outzoom a bullet.
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Originally posted by killnu
if only the planes performance numbers were all that mattered...
We're not picking on 109Ks :)
And you used to be a 38 dweeb too back in the day! :)
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Originally posted by 33Vortex
I'd win the 1st one, maybe the 2nd (don't know how good a stick you are, or what luck you may carry with you :D) but I would probably (edit) not win the 3rd.
Sweet!! Is 33vortex your in game ID?
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Yes, I'm on Euro time, CET (GMT+1). You?
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I know Dan. Just adding a touch of reality...it is not all the plane...as everyone knows....
Must have been a 38G if it was augering
...I wasnt talking about 80th 38L's...just 38L's in general. ;) There is but a small portion of good fighting 38 sticks out of all the 38's lerking around...and 80th has most of them.
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GMT-8
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Originally posted by oboe
Here's the actual data from the last tour, late war MA. Interesting numbers I think. I wouldn't draw a strong conclusion from this. If I saw all the data from all the tours ever, I'd still probably lean towards thinking its pilot over plane.
Fw 190A-5 has 13 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 9 Kills of Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-5 has 41 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 44 Kills of Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-5 has 97 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 55 Kills of Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8 has 27 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 25 Kills of Fw 190A-8
Fw 190A-8 has 89 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 95 Kills of Fw 190A-8
Fw 190A-8 has 230 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 169 Kills of Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8 has 28 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 32 Kills of Fw 190F-8
Fw 190F-8 has 1 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 7 Kills of Fw 190F-8
Fw 190F-8 has 8 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 18 Kills of Fw 190F-8
Fw 190D-9 has 32 Kills of P-38G
P-38G has 13 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 101 Kills of P-38J
P-38J has 112 Kills of Fw 190D-9
Fw 190D-9 has 299 Kills of P-38L
P-38L has 162 Kills of Fw 190D-9
OK, I am confused by these stats here.
I thought that the P38L was the newer and better P38 model?
But if that is true, how is it that the stats of the P38J here are so much better than the L model?
Is it simply that more people are using the L version as a ground attack plane?
If anyone has an explanation for this, I would like to hear it.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Probably best to use the 38J for the comparison as the 38G drivers like myself tend to be down low and slow and a tad suicidal in our flying and the 38L drivers outside of a few use it as the ground pounder.
The best 38 drivers bar a couple of the L guys are in the 38J for the most part.
But exactly why is this?
Why would one want to choose to fly the J model over the L?
I would really be interested to know the reason for this. I have only experimented a little with the L so far, myself.
SIG 220
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The only difference ordinance wise between the L and the J we have is that the L uses the later 'tree' style 5" rockets, and the J uses 3.5" rocket tubes.
The tubes stay on after being fired, and have a much larger drag penalty than the tree.
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"D9 is much more survivable as it requires a lot less thinking and skill from the pilot during a fight."
I'm not sure I follow you. Less thinking and skill? By that statement alone I could state that all dedicated 38 pilots are more or less morons. Would I be right? I'd probably be as wrong as you are with your statement.
"The mistake that d9 pilots are seen doing over...and over... and over again is entering a turn fight against a plane that is a much better turner than the D9 is. The D9 allows these mistakes to be corrected simply by diving with WEP on or climbing away after some separation is gained with WEP on."
Entering a turn fight is not a mistake in a 190. Letting him win it is. I do it frequently because it is FUN and surprisingly I have even won a few, even against 38s. If the going gets tough you may be able to reverse and get away in time. Go too slow and you will be bagged. Sounds easy?
"This WEP however, does not make the D9 'better' than the P38. The 38 is a plane of versatility, a bag of many tricks and capabilities... where the dora has but the WEP trick and no more."
D9 also has pretty good armament and good roll rate. It also should have much better airframe G tolerance and thus high speed maneuverability but this is not modelled. How unfortunate.
"1400 rounds even at that long range the hits snapped his wing out."
Yeah, you could test with .target command which of these guns is most far reaching: MG131, MG151/20, .50Cal or Hisso.
You really managed to snap his wing off from 1.1k with a concentrated hail of .50s? Why not, the .50 probably had the tightest bullet pattern long range and the 190s probably had the weakest wings of all WW2 fighters... :D
-C+
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I've tested that in the past. IIRC .50s dissapear around 1.4k shooting forward, 1.7k shooting back.
Can't remember the other values.
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Originally posted by Urchin
The only difference ordinance wise between the L and the J we have is that the L uses the later 'tree' style 5" rockets, and the J uses 3.5" rocket tubes.
The tubes stay on after being fired, and have a much larger drag penalty than the tree.
Nope, the 38 l has boosted ailerons and dive recovery flaps. And yes the roll response is a bit different.
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Originally posted by SIG220
OK, I am confused by these stats here.
I thought that the P38L was the newer and better P38 model?
But if that is true, how is it that the stats of the P38J here are so much better than the L model?
Is it simply that more people are using the L version as a ground attack plane?
If anyone has an explanation for this, I would like to hear it.
P38J has 6 rockets
P38L has 10 Rockets
P38L has Dive flaps
P38L carries more ord and is more survivable in those newbish suicidal dives if they know how to use dive flaps.
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---I'm not sure I follow you. Less thinking and skill? By that statement alone I could state that all dedicated 38 pilots are more or less morons. Would I be right? I'd probably be as wrong as you are with your statement.
Take a relatively new player who only has flown spits or n1ks or some other newbie ride and put them in a P-38 and he will be dead pretty quick. It takes a good amount of time and practice to be proficcient in the plane for ACM. Put them in a 190d9, show them where the WEP button is...
and you got a 'decent' 190 pilot.
Hence yes, it takes a lot less skill and thinking to fly the 190d9. This is not to say there are GOOD pilots flying the 190D9, just that overall the plane is just far, far FAR more forgiving and easy fight in than the P-38.
"The mistake that d9 pilots are seen doing over...and over... and over again is entering a turn fight against a plane that is a much better turner than the D9 is. The D9 allows these mistakes to be corrected simply by diving with WEP on or climbing away after some separation is gained with WEP on."
Entering a turn fight is not a mistake in a 190. Letting him win it is. I do it frequently because it is FUN and surprisingly I have even won a few, even against 38s. If the going gets tough you may be able to reverse and get away in time. Go too slow and you will be bagged. Sounds easy?
You just reinforced my point. Dont know why you seem to be arguing it. A p-38 does not have that option a 190d9 has it practically all the time. Hence it IS a mistake on their behalf to turn with better turning planes.. if they mess up the shot they think they going for the WEP will be there to save them.
"This WEP however, does not make the D9 'better' than the P38. The 38 is a plane of versatility, a bag of many tricks and capabilities... where the dora has but the WEP trick and no more."
D9 also has pretty good armament and good roll rate. It also should have much better airframe G tolerance and thus high speed maneuverability but this is not modelled. How unfortunate.
Irrelevant when compared to the WEP.
"1400 rounds even at that long range the hits snapped his wing out."
Yeah, you could test with .target command which of these guns is most far reaching: MG131, MG151/20, .50Cal or Hisso.
You really managed to snap his wing off from 1.1k with a concentrated hail of .50s? Why not, the .50 probably had the tightest bullet pattern long range and the 190s probably had the weakest wings of all WW2 fighters... :D
Which... is exactly my point again. The 38's guns are capable of long range 'sniping' and have a copious ammo load. That one factor alone, above all other airplanes in the set, allowed me to win that fight. Score 1 for the 38's bag'o'tricks.
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It's hard to tell who said what in the above post.
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Dora is more forgiving? You have an extra engine when your rad/oil gets hit on a P38. ;)
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Originally posted by Raptor
P38J has 6 rockets
P38L has 10 Rockets
P38L has Dive flaps
P38L carries more ord and is more survivable in those newbish suicidal dives if they know how to use dive flaps.
OK, let me re-phrase my question another way:
Why would anyone want to fly the P38 J over the L model?
Obviously, from looking at these stats, some people are selecting it instead. Or are all of these folks simply flying in the Mid War Arena, and thus cannot use the L version???
There is also quite a difference between the success the two models have against the other planes noted in these stats. It gives an appearance of the J model doing better.
Are more experienced pilots flying the J? Would that explain it? But then, if that is so, why would they choose it over the L model??
SIG 220
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More people use the L for pure ground attack missions so it's stats suffer from that.
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Originally posted by SIG220
OK, let me re-phrase my question another way:
Why would anyone want to fly the P38 J over the L model?
Obviously, from looking at these stats, some people are selecting it instead. Or are all of these folks simply flying in the Mid War Arena, and thus cannot use the L version???
There is also quite a difference between the success the two models have against the other planes noted in these stats. It gives an appearance of the J model doing better.
Are more experienced pilots flying the J? Would that explain it? But then, if that is so, why would they choose it over the L model??
SIG 220
I do believe that a number of experienced 38 drivers fly Js. Not all but many.
You have to understand that the die hard 38 dweebs like myself sometimes fly the one that has the most history, or the skin we like best. Some of the J drivers like OD skins instead of natural metal so they fly it.
That doesn't make it a bad choice to fly the L. Raptor flies the L almost exclusively and he does amazing things in it. Fringe flies the L most often I think and he's great in it. Silat flies the L...if you can call that flying....:)
I think you'll also find that maybe the key word is experienced. Some guys want the challenge of not flying the latest and greatest to see how they can stack up against all the end of the war birds.
Not all 190 drivers fly D9s. Lots of em take A5s or A8s, possibly because of the JG they fly with and it has the right skin for their bunch but also for the challenge of doing more with less.
As mentioned the 38L is the one that carries the most ord. But again I'd say that the most experienced 38 drivers are much more interested in fighting other planes and not being fighter bombers.
The alts that AH in the MA is fought at also don't make the dive flaps that big of an advantage. When we flew the DGS scenario most everyone flew Ls because at 30K the dive flaps and power assist was helpful.
Of course I'm a 38G dweeb so this is just my observations on the 38 sticks I've flown with over the last few years...even KillnU before he got his leather lederhosen on :)
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Originally posted by SIG220
OK, let me re-phrase my question another way:
Why would anyone want to fly the P38 J over the L model?
Obviously, from looking at these stats, some people are selecting it instead. Or are all of these folks simply flying in the Mid War Arena, and thus cannot use the L version???
There is also quite a difference between the success the two models have against the other planes noted in these stats. It gives an appearance of the J model doing better.
Are more experienced pilots flying the J? Would that explain it? But then, if that is so, why would they choose it over the L model??
SIG 220
I prefer the J because it has better skins, imo. The L is a better plane, but not by enough to overcome its lack of olive drab skins. I think this is the reason for most people choosing the J over the L, but I'm probably wrong. ;)
The J model does better because the guys flying it have an idea of what they're doing. Most people in the L are using it simply because it can carry ord and have no intention of actually shooting something down with it (and I don't think they'd be able to shoot something down even if they wanted to).
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I can't bear to fly the J because it does nothing better than the L and has a worse roll rate. The P-38's hard enough to fight in with powered ailerons.
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Originally posted by Fianna
Most people in the L are using it simply because it can carry ord and have no intention of actually shooting something down with it (and I don't think they'd be able to shoot something down even if they wanted to).
Exactly the reason why it should be scored and categorized as a "bomber".
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Originally posted by SIG220
OK, let me re-phrase my question another way:
Why would anyone want to fly the P38 J over the L model?
Obviously, from looking at these stats, some people are selecting it instead. Or are all of these folks simply flying in the Mid War Arena, and thus cannot use the L version???
There is also quite a difference between the success the two models have against the other planes noted in these stats. It gives an appearance of the J model doing better.
Are more experienced pilots flying the J? Would that explain it? But then, if that is so, why would they choose it over the L model??
SIG 220
P-38L is the heaviest of the set and has the most ordenance options.
P-38J is lighter than the L and has practically the same engines. For weight to engine power, the 38J is better. It in fact, has better acceleration and a higher top speed than the 38L. It only suffers from lack of dive flaps but anyone familiar with the 38 should have little issue with this.
P-38G has lower top speed and lower acceleration than its late war counterparts.. but it has significantly better agility (turn rate).
All in all,
take the 38L when you need to do ground attack or high altitude work (25k+).
take the 38J for air-to-air combat under 25k if you are more of a Boom and Zoom pilot (dont like to turn that much or get slow).
Take the 38G for any air to air combat under 25k if you are more into manouvering than energy fighting.
Personally I take the 38G for most air to air since it gives me the best plane vs the majority of the planeset in the MA. It is fast (but not THE fastest), turns well (but not the best) and still has all the benefits of the 38's design (counter props, stability, huge ammo load, good guns).
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
The P-38's hard enough to fight in with powered ailerons.
I guess maybe for some....
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Tac
P-38L is the heaviest of the set ...
P-38J is lighter than the L and has practically the same engines. For weight to engine power, the 38J is better. It in fact, has better acceleration and a higher top speed than the 38L.
Tac, that's not right, either in Aces High II or in reality. In Aces High II, the J and L are the exact same weight. In reality, the J was indeed lighter (by varying amounts depending on the production block), but the L had the much more powerful F-30 engines. The P-38L has the exact same speed as the P-38J in the game, but in reality with P-38L was significantly faster.
So, both in Aces High II and in reality, the P-38L was superior to the P-38J. In Aces High II, the superiority is absolute, as the P-38L has things that the P-38J doesn't and yet the P-38J doesn't do anything better than the P-38L.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
...and yet the P-38J doesn't do anything better than the P-38L.
Except turn radius and turn rate.
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Originally posted by clerick
Except turn radius and turn rate.
I'm pretty sure turn radius and turn rate are the same for both.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Tac, that's not right, either in Aces High II or in reality. In Aces High II, the J and L are the exact same weight. In reality, the J was indeed lighter (by varying amounts depending on the production block), but the L had the much more powerful F-30 engines. The P-38L has the exact same speed as the P-38J in the game, but in reality with P-38L was significantly faster.
I can't find my speed charts but IIRC, the P-38J had a slight speed advantage over the L because of the lighter weight. The difference was minor, not significant like you state.
IIRC, speed at 25,000ft for the L is 414mph while the speed for the J at 25,000ft was 420mph.
Widewing's site should have the speed charts that would show the minor difference in speeds.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Fianna
I'm pretty sure turn radius and turn rate are the same for both.
P38J has a slightly tighter turning circle than a P38L, but not enough to be the deciding factor in a fight. Same goes for speed.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I can't find my speed charts but IIRC, the P-38J had a slight speed advantage over the L because of the lighter weight. The difference was minor, not significant like you state.
IIRC, speed at 25,000ft for the L is 414mph while the speed for the J at 25,000ft was 420mph.
Widewing's site should have the speed charts that would show the minor difference in speeds.
ack-ack
The arguments about the P-38's max speed are almost never ending. When tested at Eglin Field, the P-38J tested managed 421 mph. There's many sources that point to 414 mph for the P-38L, but that speed reflects the derating of the engines to 1,600 hp by the USAAF. Running factory rated power (both Allison and Lockheed) of 1,725 hp, the P-38L was considerably faster. Speed estimates vary from 420 mph (Rau) up to 440 mph (Bodie). Pilot reports cover that range as well. However, if we examine the P-38J's performance using 150 octane fuel, we probably have a close figure to what the P-38L could manage at factory rated power.
An USAAF test drew the following conclusions:
VII Conclusions
a. In level flight operation a gain of 17 MPH can be obtained by increasing the allowable power from 60 to 70" Hg. (W.E.R.).
b. In climb operation a gain of 500 ft/min can be obtained by increasing the allowable power from 60 to 70" Hg.
c. Cooling the airplane can be easily maintained at 70" Hg. However, maximum performance can only be maintained by strict maintenance on the duct system to prevent possible leakage.
c. The maintenance difficulties experienced throughout the tests were considerable. These consisted mainly of induction, exhaust system, and spark plug failure. However, these difficulties could not be attributed directly to any action of the 44-1 fuel.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Fianna
I'm pretty sure turn radius and turn rate are the same for both.
Earlier in the post i had posted a pic of some tests that WW had done. They clearly show the J with a measurable, but not huge, turn advantage.
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Originally posted by Widewing
There's many sources that point to 414 mph for the P-38L, but that speed reflects the derating of the engines to 1,600 hp by the USAAF.
Widewing, the famous 414 M.P.H. figure for the P-38L wasn't obtained from 1,600 h.p., it came from 1,475 h.p. 414 M.P.H. was attained at military power only.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I get a kick out of guys like this...
Define "starts high". 10k, 20k higher? Do both start high, or only the 190? Not that it matters to me, I really don't mind being the low fighter.
Keep in mind that the P-38J is faster over 90% of the altitude range than the Antons, and the difference in acceleration and climb gets increasingly lopsided as you go up. I should remind folks that the last adjustment to the drag model significantly increased the turn radius of all 190s, including the Ta 152.
I fly 190s quite a lot. I'm as capable in them as anyone else. I know where they're weak and strong. I also fly the P-38s a great deal. Air to air, the P-38J/L is superior. When all is said and done, all the 190 can do is split-s and skedaddle.
Among the fighters that perform best in vertical combat, I rate the P-38 as the best of the bunch. Its stability and rudder control is without peer (it's the only fighter than can perform a perfectly controlled hammerhead stall).
Let's add some perspective. The P-51 owns the 190s in a duel. The P-38 owns the P-51 in a duel... Draw the logical conclusion.
My regards,
Widewing
That all american planes are over modeled?
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Originally posted by Castedo
That all american planes are over modeled?
(http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/ATA/24774DG~I-Fling-Poo-Posters.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Who said the 190d9 was ez'r to fly than a 38?
:rofl yur nutz, i tell the newbs to up 38's cause theres no tourqe...
and it has the ez'st guns in the game to aim.:aok
And whats this dueling thing, was in a spit16 against an a5 model 190, and when I got to his altitude he did the logical thing, and gained seperation, or as you call it running.
this isnt an aircraft dispute, its a forum for boneheads to hate on tactics, and try to shame good boom and zoomers into making dumb mistakes....like turning against a 38 in a dora.
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I did. and you misquote me. I said fly and FIGHT in them.
any idiot can fly any plane in this game, torque or no torque on the plane.
But fighting in it is a completely different thing. In that aspect the 190D9 is literally a plane with training wheelies for those who lack much ACM.
I'll say it again, show me 190D9 that's out of WEP and i'll show you a 190D9 that is very likely to not survive the next fight.
The 38 requires constant SA and good knowledge of ACM to fight in it as it has NO advantage over the rest of the planeset that another plane does a lot better ..instead it happens to be ALMOST good at everything but not enough to bring it on top. The pilot makes the difference.
In the 190D9 the pilot is just there to press the WEP.
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Originally posted by stephen
Who said the 190d9 was ez'r to fly than a 38?
:rofl yur nutz, i tell the newbs to up 38's cause theres no tourqe...
and it has the ez'st guns in the game to aim.:aok
And whats this dueling thing, was in a spit16 against an a5 model 190, and when I got to his altitude he did the logical thing, and gained seperation, or as you call it running.
this isnt an aircraft dispute, its a forum for boneheads to hate on tactics, and try to shame good boom and zoomers into making dumb mistakes....like turning against a 38 in a dora.
Sometimes its so accurate though that I'm not even close:aok
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Originally posted by Tac
But fighting in it is a completely different thing. In that aspect the 190D9 is literally a plane with training wheelies for those who lack much ACM.
I'll say it again, show me 190D9 that's out of WEP and i'll show you a 190D9 that is very likely to not survive the next fight.
The 38 requires constant SA and good knowledge of ACM to fight in it as it has NO advantage over the rest of the planeset that another plane does a lot better ..instead it happens to be ALMOST good at everything but not enough to bring it on top. The pilot makes the difference.
In the 190D9 the pilot is just there to press the WEP.
I have to disagree here. As a 190A-8 pilot (1/4-1/3 of my flights) I have literally NO advantages over any other ac in the game other than roll rate and guns. It requires very strong SA, good knowledge of ACM's and strong E management skills to stay alive. You can't just yank and bank in an A8. Many ACM's are not even feasable given energy states.
That said, against average pilots, as long as I can hold enough E to get 1.5-2K seperation I can control the fight against much more nimble ac and disengage all but the fastest at will. Just today I was giving a Hurri IIC fits keeping the pressure on him while continually denying him a shot opportunity.
I'll say again, the P-38 is the better fighter but with a full bag of ACM for the 38, the 190 is much more difficult to fight with inside a 2K box. As I posted earlier, I've fought this way and beat Spits, F4U's, Hurris, F6F's and others on many occasions.
BTW, WEP is definately helpful but not nessesarily required.
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is literally a plane with training wheelies for those who lack much ACM.
And what exactly do you call a plane with an extra engine and nose mounted guns (no convergence issues)?
I have flown them all...they all have an advantage over another in some way.
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Originally posted by killnu
And what exactly do you call a plane with an extra engine and nose mounted guns (no convergence issues)?
I have flown them all...they all have an advantage over another in some way.
Ahh to see a good 38G dweeb gone bad :)
But you are correct, if you fly a bird to it's advantages it tends to do OK.
Stephen, I wish you'd stick to one argument. First it was 190 Hands down over the 38 and now its the 38 that's a newb plane.
Considering that none of the planes we 'fly' are real, the secret still comes down to flying what you have fun in.
For me it's flying a midwar bird that has a lot of history that interests me. That's my choice. If you like a latewar bird, go for it.
I like to fly into the fight lower and I'm not worried about 'winning' every engagement. For me, part of the challenge is defeating the guys with the advantage. If you want to set up every fight where you have the advantage, so be it. That's your choice to. That doesn't make you a better stick then me or vice versa.
This applies to any of the guys who get carried away about the 'greatness' of their bird of choice. Nothing wrong with having a passion for it unless it begins to blind you to anything else.
Bottom line is as long as it's fun, go for it.
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There's no mention of fun in Tac's arguments. It's a matter of fact.
I'd refute the "fact" that 190s have no chance versus 38s, but I'd rather the opposition stay in error :p
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Originally posted by moot
There's no mention of fun in Tac's arguments. It's a matter of fact.
I'd refute the "fact" that 190s have no chance versus 38s, but I'd rather the opposition stay in error :p
And as a certifiable 38G dweeb I agree with you. And I used the word certifiable deliberately :)
The problem is folks want to argue the merits based on one plane's strengths or another.
That generally doesn't include what the best tactics would be for each particular bird.
In the real world, a 38G for example would never have encountered a 190D9 as the G was gone before the 190D9 entered service.
That being said I'm fairly confident in it against most 190D9 drivers. My experience is that 190D9 drivers will used tht alt and E to thier advantage and try and pick me. If I'm not engaged with another bird I'm confident I can avoid it and hopefully frustrate them enough to start to turn with me down low.
That being said, there are AH 190 drivers out there who can do things with it most can't. Those guys, who are thankfully few in number generally eat me up.
It's still all about having fun.
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Dan, I am not saying any one plane is better than the other...was point of my last post...even a C202 does things better than a P38, or a 190, or a spit, or a....you get my point. It all comes down to who is at the controls.
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Originally posted by killnu
Dan, I am not saying any one plane is better than the other...was point of my last post...even a C202 does things better than a P38, or a 190, or a spit, or a....you get my point. It all comes down to who is at the controls.
I'm in absolute agreement with you Josh :)
The last part of my post was aimed at Stephen and the others who can't see that.
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...and I agree with both you as well. My whole point is take someone who has poor ACM and put him in a 38. True, he may not stall and kill himself in the 38 but he will still be a guaranteed casualty in the first dogfight he gets into. Put in him a 190D9 (note: D9 not saying anything about the other 190's) and as long as he knows where the WEP is that pilot has a significantly higher chance in that dogfight.
Pilot makes all the difference when that pilot is GOOD. When the pilot is poor its the plane that makes the difference. The Dora and the 38 are on opposite ends of that spectrum.
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Originally posted by Tac
...and I agree with both you as well. My whole point is take someone who has poor ACM and put him in a 38. True, he may not stall and kill himself in the 38 but he will still be a guaranteed casualty in the first dogfight he gets into. Put in him a 190D9 (note: D9 not saying anything about the other 190's) and as long as he knows where the WEP is that pilot has a significantly higher chance in that dogfight.
Pilot makes all the difference when that pilot is GOOD. When the pilot is poor its the plane that makes the difference. The Dora and the 38 are on opposite ends of that spectrum.
I still have to take issue with this.
I fly all the 190's, not that much but I do fly them all. The A5 turns best, the A8 has the best gun package, the D9 is fastest and the F8 carries more ord but the general handling charachteristics aren't that different and the differences are small in a fight.
I've also flown the P-38s although not that much and I'm no expert by any means. I've flown the G the most, then the J several times and the L very little.
To get into an actual fight, where your intent is not to run away, is much more difficult in any of the 190's than it is in any of the 38's. Mastering either is difficult but if you have a basic grasp of the use of flaps the 38's are far superior to the 190's in ease of use and therfore, in survivability.
I think you keep assuming the 190 will run while the 38 will not and I don't blame you as that's how they are often flown in the MA's but please keep the comparison on equal terms. Running isn't a dogfight.
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Since when can anyone run in a 38G? :)
That's part of the fun. Can't outrun anything as near as I can tell. I have to fight
I think it's fair to say a 190 pilot is going to rely more on alt and E while a 38 driver is more likely to engage in a turn fight.
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I think it's fair to say a 190 pilot is going to rely more on alt and E while a 38 driver is more likely to engage in a turn fight.
For some 38 drivers that is true...Ive seen my fair share of "190" type 38 flying though. Keeping speed up, retain alt advantage and pick away. Then you run into somebody like you and just dont know what to do. :aok
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Originally posted by Guppy35
So basically after all this we can agree that a 190D9 with alt and E can control when he engages a 38 and that a 190D9 pilot co alt and co-E should put the nose down and run because he can out dive a 38?
What I see is more of a reverse roping idea...
While the p38 has the advantage in an upwards vertical, the 190 has the advantage in the dive where the p38 locks up at ~400 mph whilst the 190 can go over 500, so instead of the p38 getting the 190 to climb with it, stall out, and then pounce, the 190 would dive, wait for the p38 to lock up or pull out, immelman or loop, and let the 20mm's or 30mm's do the rest. :aok
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Originally posted by trigger2
What I see is more of a reverse roping idea...
While the p38 has the advantage in an upwards vertical, the 190 has the advantage in the dive where the p38 locks up at ~400 mph whilst the 190 can go over 500, so instead of the p38 getting the 190 to climb with it, stall out, and then pounce, the 190 would dive, wait for the p38 to lock up or pull out, immelman or loop, and let the 20mm's or 30mm's do the rest. :aok
Try that with Ack Ack. Report back with what happens.
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Originally posted by trigger2
What I see is more of a reverse roping idea...
While the p38 has the advantage in an upwards vertical, the 190 has the advantage in the dive where the p38 locks up at ~400 mph whilst the 190 can go over 500, so instead of the p38 getting the 190 to climb with it, stall out, and then pounce, the 190 would dive, wait for the p38 to lock up or pull out, immelman or loop, and let the 20mm's or 30mm's do the rest. :aok
Only an inexperienced P-38 flyer would get caught like that. Try that against experienced P-38 drivers and all they will do is kick some rudder out to increase drag and adjust throttle accordingly to control the dive speed.
If I see a Dora or any other plane try the trick you describe, one of two things will happen. 1) the Dora will die when it tries to go vertical after the dive. 2) the Dora will run.
All I have to do is just control the angle of my dive while controlling my speed. I'm not going to follow you completely in your dive. I am going to lessen my dive angle to maintain my energy state more than anything else. This will allow me to have enough energy to match your climb when you pull out of the dive and easily catch you for the kill. If you try and Immel at the top, all I have to do is then do a vertical 8 or continue my vertical climb for either the rope or to gain the altitude advantage. At this point you will have two options, try and fight and at low speed, you won't last very long or try and get away.
Of course, you can always choose option #2. YMMV.
ack-ack
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... Or with me. I generally don't let my P-38 go into compression. And if I do, it's quite controllable. I don't even use the dive flaps; all I need to do is use a little bit of postive elevator trim, then return it to neutral when I'm at a safer speed. I've never had an FW-190 foil me by diving, unless he's strictly running from the fight. But remember that an FW-190 diving is only going to gain from the dive if he's leaving the fight for good. If he comes back, he's going to be worse off than he was before he dove.
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"I think you keep assuming the 190 will run while the 38 will not and I don't blame you as that's how they are often flown in the MA's but please keep the comparison on equal terms. Running isn't a dogfight."
Not at all, I do not assume the 190's will run (although thats almost always the case).
What im trying to say is that a 38 HAS (important keyword: HAS) to enter a fight to shoot down the other guy. Running is rarely a viable option in the 38 as almost all planes except the very early war set will catch up with it after a dive.
Those with little skill in ACM cant survive the 38 when vs most of the planeset as the 38 is not dramatically better at any one thing than the other planes..whereas the 190d9 is dramatically better in acceleration and dive than most of the planeset thanks to its WEP.
So again, a good pilot makes the difference in any plane. But the plane makes all the difference in the hands of not so good pilots.
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There is an interesting story of Joe Foss and another ace arguing about the virtues of the P38 versus the P51. To settle the argument they dueled(without guns). The 38 lost. The mustang simply out climbed the 38 and proceeded to BnZ him.
As we all know. A good pilot in a lesser plane will probably beat a novice in a better plane most of the time.
So a P38 co-alt with a FW 190 A8. Experienced pilots. Toss up. P38 will turn better, the Fw dives faster. Fw rolls quicker. At 5k and above 20k* the advantage is probably with the 38. *if Fw stays and doesn't dive out.
That's just a guess though. Don't much like either plane. In a Spit (my campaign ride) I prefer catching a 38 low or co-alt. I can turn with either. I can out climb either. The head on factor is about equal from my point of view. A P38 can't dive away. The Fw will dive out and be gone.
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Originally posted by alskahawk
There is an interesting story of Joe Foss and another ace arguing about the virtues of the P38 versus the P51. To settle the argument they dueled(without guns). The 38 lost. The mustang simply out climbed the 38 and proceeded to BnZ him.
As we all know. A good pilot in a lesser plane will probably beat a novice in a better plane most of the time.
So a P38 co-alt with a FW 190 A8. Experienced pilots. Toss up. P38 will turn better, the Fw dives faster. Fw rolls quicker. At 5k and above 20k* the advantage is probably with the 38. *if Fw stays and doesn't dive out.
That's just a guess though. Don't much like either plane. In a Spit (my campaign ride) I prefer catching a 38 low or co-alt. I can turn with either. I can out climb either. The head on factor is about equal from my point of view. A P38 can't dive away. The Fw will dive out and be gone.
I'd be very interested in seeing the source material on that "duel" and the P-51 out climbing the P-38. Under what conditions?
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I ll look it up when I get home next week. The other ace was well known also. Just can't remember his name. Might be in Allied Fighter Aces by Mike Spick.
(im currently over by chattanoga otw to florida)
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Since Joe Foss was a Marine Ace, I'm not sure what his experience would have been in 51s and 38s.
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Originally posted by alskahawk
So a P38 co-alt with a FW 190 A8. Experienced pilots. Toss up. P38 will turn better, the Fw dives faster. Fw rolls quicker. At 5k and above 20k* the advantage is probably with the 38. *if Fw stays and doesn't dive out.
As an experienced A8 driver I can assure you this isn't a toss-up at all between experienced pilots. The 38 wins every time.
Over 20K the A8 begins to turn into a wallowing pile of mush where the 38 is still strong. In the 10-17k range the 190 has a slim chance.
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slim chance, of getting anything but owned!
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
As an experienced A8 driver I can assure you this isn't a toss-up at all between experienced pilots. The 38 wins every time.
Over 20K the A8 begins to turn into a wallowing pile of mush where the 38 is still strong. In the 10-17k range the 190 has a slim chance.
Ya after some thought the A8 has some serious disadvantages right off. Can't turn. Better dive speed but to what advantage? Can't run away in a duel like in a arena. Climb rate and zoom rate are speed dependant and if the Fw can't extend his climb rate is going to be less than the 38 if they have equal speed. Fw can use his roll rate to avoid some shots but doubtful he can reverse H2T situation.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Since Joe Foss was a Marine Ace, I'm not sure what his experience would have been in 51s and 38s.
I'll look it up when I get home later this week. Sure I have it in a book. Rather a famous story, surprised no here knows of it.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Since Joe Foss was a Marine Ace, I'm not sure what his experience would have been in 51s and 38s.
Unless the dual took place when Foss what in command of the South Dakota ANG. But by that time, it was the '50s and the P-38s pretty much delegated to the scrap metal heap.
ack-ack