Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: hyster on December 16, 2007, 06:38:02 AM
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I've always loved the mossie and i wanted to learn to fly it as a fighter but my early experiences's with it early on when starting to play AH2 made me re-think that and stay away from it unless i was bombing and needed to get there quickly.
now i considered the 38l easy meat until the other night. i came across a 38l about 12k and i was in a spit 16 a bit higher. i thought another easyish kill. to cut a long story short the guy in the 38l eat me alive and my first reaction was the f*** cheatin w**** (sorry to squaddies who has to listen to my out burst on vox). the guy was something like guex. i got a of him after wards so i guess i didn't to badly.
now last night i was in a mossie and came across a 38l about 10k i was about 6k. i thought crap im dead. turns out i out flew him and shot him down. i carnt remember the guys name but i checked the roster after wards and he was ranked about 1200 i think(i no rank dosent mean every thing but i believe it does give a fair indication of the pilots skills). i assumed the 38l would out fly the mossie with ease.
now my problem.
how good is the mossie at acm? is it worth trying to learn or keep using it on the odd bombing run?
how good is the 38l? the fight against it i had in a spit16 was that a case of the 38l pilot being outstanding in it or me being totally crap at the time?
my experiences's with both planes over the last few days have left me confused over both planes capability's.
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i really know nothing about the mossie, but i know the 38 is an ecelent plane in the right hands, i think this was a case of pilot skill over plane skill.
the first guy knew what he was doing and the second either didnt or made some mistake like coming in to hot overshooting you or underestimating you.
i personaly clasify the mossie as litlte better than an a20 and the a20 is great in the right hands, yes its labled bomber but i know some have lots of sucess in it as a fighter.
a good pilot can take any plane up and get kills ive seen d38 jap bombers down 163's in a duel and ive seen huri 1's in a six on one be the only plane left. all about the pilot.
just my opinion as im no experten and joined about a year after you lol
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Hopefully "thrila" will chime in on this post. He flys the Mossie almost exclusively.
And your right ... rank means nothing ... and no, it is not a good indication of one's fighter skills.
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Originally posted by hyster
now my problem.
how good is the mossie at acm? is it worth trying to learn or keep using it on the odd bombing run?
how good is the 38l? the fight against it i had in a spit16 was that a case of the 38l pilot being outstanding in it or me being totally crap at the time?
mossy as a fighter = YES learn it, it is awesome with the right control.
P38 vs your spit16 = hmm, P38s are good, if the pilot knew his stuff then he can easily beat a spit16 in certain situations.
i was chasing down BiPloar the other day. I was in the mossy with about 65% fuel loaded and he was in a P38J.
well, despite my very best efforts, i even hit his oil and fuel when i got a good shot in, despite my best efforts i was reversed and soundly beaten by some very skilled flying from BiPolar.
I am not sure exactly what the planes brought into that fight, flown equaly it could go either way.
The reason i got beat was BiPolars skillfull flying AND making good use of his planes advantages over mine. NOT any thing i did wrong just that he did everthing right. this leads me to believe the P38 with a good stick will be a tough fight for anyone in the mossy IF flown as well as bip flew it the other day.
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p38 is anything but easy meat .
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Once again ...... It's not the Plane It's the Pilot :aok
I would fly and learn as many planes as you can.
It sure helps when you fight them to know how what they can do. :aok
Crims
479th Raiders FG
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P-38 has a better rate of turn than the mossy. The mossy can pull a tighter low speed turn radius. The P-38 excels in vertical maneuvering, the mossy must be cautious in vertical maneuvers near stall speed due to its tendancy to flat stall. P-38 has better low end accelration, but the mossy has a higher top speed. When you balance out relative strengths and weeknesses, either plane has a chance at gaining an advantage, though I lean slightly toward the P-38 given equal pilots. They are close enough that it could go either way depending on pilot skill.
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it has always been the pilot not the plane that maters you could fly a p-40 and you could beat a p-51
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The thing about mossies, 110's and A20s---they can all turn well enough to make a HO attempt, and ya always have to respect that first, takes away from the fight
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Thats what makes this game so tuff !!!! No plane is alike, and no pilot is alike. You could fly a mossie against a dozen different P38l's, and have a dozen different fights.
Any plane is worth learning, and any plane can beat another plane. Run into Snaphook/humble in that A20 of his, and I don't care what your flying, your in for a fight !
I never take any fight for granted, or see a plane and say "ahhh easy kill". They all hold something in store for you !
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thanks for the reply's guys.
im aware that a large part is down to the pilot but apart from ho'ing i never rated either much beyound bombing. i tryed the mossie again last night and in a flight i fought and won against a p-51 and a 110. admititly niether pilot was that good (we all start somewere) but it has given me a lot more respect for the mossie, think ill fly it more often and go from there.
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I flew a bunch of mossie hops over the weekend and its significantly different then the A-20 (which I knew already). As murder said its weakness is in its control authority at high AoA...it simply cant hang with a 38 (or A-20) thruout certain portions of the flight envelope {IMO}. It has reasonable rudder authority slow at high AoA but "flutters" and threatens to drop a wing requiring both alot of touch and control input that bleeds of E and makes the situation worse.
It doesnt have the zoom the A-20 does but it has significantly better sustained climb. My thoughts are that the 38 has the upper hand but the mossie has a very significant exploitable window in the "midgame" where the 38 driver has to balance relative E state and relative positioning. Like the A-20 the 38 driver has to get "inside" the mossie at risk of a FQ or snapshot (unless the 38 had the initial advantage) yet maintain enough E not to let the mossie gain the perch. The mossie doesnt have the pure "rotational" capability the 38 does so once it gets into a out of plane flaps and rudder affair I think the mossie will be hard pressed.
I view the mossie as an offensive flying gun package, with alt & E it'll gain a shot opportunity on just about anything...usually hitting that shot makes or breaks the fight...if it gets drawn into a phonebooth fight its not going to prevail vs a 38.
*** at edit ***
Looking at donzo's charts the mossie seems less able in vert then I'd have thought. I had a better sustained climb out then the 2100 ft/min it showed for sure...curious if performance was bumped in FM change. A-20 has a better sustained climb then the mossie according to that chart (non wep)
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
Thats what makes this game so tuff !!!! No plane is alike, and no pilot is alike. You could fly a mossie against a dozen different P38l's, and have a dozen different fights.
Any plane is worth learning, and any plane can beat another plane. Run into Snaphook/humble in that A20 of his, and I don't care what your flying, your in for a fight !
I never take any fight for granted, or see a plane and say "ahhh easy kill". They all hold something in store for you !
For a below average noob I try my best to at least keep it interesting for a few seconds:D
TY for the kind words BTW
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2,100fpm = full fuel and 2,000lbs of bombs.
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ahhhh......
TY I was somewhere around 2900 ft/m at 50% from what I recall w/o wep on initial climbout...
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A Mossie with a 25% fuel load is a good agile plane. I rarely fly it with more than 50% gas.
I love getting into fights with P38s and P51s in a Mossie. In a turn fight you need to use Hi and Low YoYos to gain angles. Also use the flaps when going over the top to help your turn. Good rudder use is needed as well.
I have found that if you get good in a Mossie it really helps you in fight in other planes that are more capable. I also find that you don't need to go looking for a fight as the Mossie Icon tends to attact the red guys looking for an easy kill.
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Since the Spin bug was fixed the Mossie is easier to fight with. NC don't be put off by getting shot down in it. Geaux is a good stick and can be very slippery.
When I was new here Thrila used to and probably still does kick some major bhind in it. He would be outturning spits on the deck and I'd be thinking to myself thats interesting!
Practice is the key and keep an open mind when learning. Anything is possible in combat. Try out new ideas. People tend to think like sheep and behave like them. Expect the unexpected. Thats what keeps us hooked.
In an equal fight with equal pilots the Spit 16 would kill the P38L.
Bruv
~S~
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Thanks for the kind words guys. I've not really flown the mossie since i came back to AH a couple of months back. After several years of flying the mossie pretty much exclusively, i decided to give another plane a go: the 109g14. Primarily because i wanted to fly a plane with qualities in stark contrast what i used to fly. I do have a hankering for the mossie, i imagine i'll by flying her more often in the future, especially because i have a ch throttle quadrant that i want to play about with.:)
I had perhaps 1 or 2 sorties in the fixed mossie and i wasn't quite sure i liked it. It felt like in order to fix it they put a limit on the AoA you could pull, because i couldn't pull it as tightly as i could at middle speeds that i recall i could perform. IIRC i even had trouble getting the thing to black out- though i may have had stall limiter on it was my first couple of sorties when i came back. I wont be able to test it out out until i'm back at home in the new year, i'm currently at my parents house for a couple of weeks over the x-mas period.
My own preference for flying the mossie was to be aggressive, turning into the opposition as often as i could, making angles for the single shot- which is all that is needed. If i was unsuccessful i would dive away and grab more speed and repeat. A couple of notches of flaps helps in turns, reducing your turning circle, though i would raise them ASAP because speed reduces dramatically, coupled with the mossies poor acceleration, leaves you as a sitting duck. As someone has said above full flaps will make your turning circle very tiny- which is hand should the fight end up on the deck- aslong as the opponent refuses to go vertical, which is indeed the major weakness of the mossie.
Luckily i have my old PC at my parents so if you aren't against seeing some retro mossie films, i've decided to host a couple.:)
first an example of a wingover in the mossie. Although going vertical in the mossie is tricky, it can be done quite tidily with a bit of experience. film (http://www.4shared.com/file/32376168/76205e/mossieropespit.html)
Next a couple of one on ones: film1 (http://www.4shared.com/file/32376188/9ef50dd0/mossievp51_0313.html) and film2 (http://www.4shared.com/file/32376243/a7d4250d/mossievtiffie.html)
and a couple of multi con engagements:
film1 (http://www.4shared.com/file/32376075/661e0795/2mossv2spit.html)
film2 (http://www.4shared.com/file/32376138/7d01d41b/mossiefballisle.html)
film 3 (http://www.4shared.com/file/32376215/33c0747d/mossievspit5.html)
film 4 (http://www.4shared.com/file/32376318/4cb362f7/snipe_la7.html)
Most if not all of these are several years old i'm afraid. On the plus side some of you may recognise some of the old names.
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There ya go NC from the horses mouth.
I will download and watch them when i get in from work.
Should be good viewing ;)
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Nice to hear from you thrila...Obviously I've got way less ability/experience in the mossie then you do but I noticed the high AoA issues immediately after the reworked FM. Since I'm not a particularly adept mossie driver I wasnt sure how much of it was the FM and how much was do to my increasing experience in the A-20. I've always been able to get "more" out of an A-20 but that gap seemed to widen after the rework. I'd agree they robbed peter to pay paul somehow.
What suprises me is what feels like an increased "shudder/wobbliness" at moderate speed high AoA in the vertical obliques. It seems much harder to work a spitty or similiar plane in those semi vertical cutbacks then it did...
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Originally posted by Bruv119
NC don't be put off by getting shot down in it. Geaux is a good stick and can be very slippery.
as i said in my first post i thought what Geaux did with the 38 was compleate B**l s**t. when i saw who had shot me down i sorta took a step back and said "WOW. didnt no a 38l could fly like that". ive been up against Geaux a few times (always lost) so i quckly realised he flew outstanding in the 38l and i had made a bad assumtion about the 38 in the hands of a great pilot.
ill fly the mossie for a bit and see how i get on with it, even my few flights over the past few days i was impressed. i think part of the problem was i used the twisty stick as a rudder, now i have a set of saitek peddels i seem to be able to perform manuavers i coudnt do before.
thanks thrila. ill watch the vids asap
thanks for all of the replys guys, it has given me a lot to think about.
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The new fixed mossie is easier to handle. The trade off is reduced elevator authority. At some parts of the envelope, you can pull full elevator stick deflection and not snap-stall the plane. It seems more "lazy" over all.
Official charts and performance data are misleading. They are usually with 100% fuel which means about 70 (!) minutes at full throttle and sometimes with bombs included. You never ever need more than 50% in the MA. If you go bomber hunting or short range fighter mode, 25%+DT is enough, which will get your climb rate to over 3000 fpm. Acceleration is also much better than it gets credit for and the diving acceleration is top rank.
However, as a knife fighter it is inferior to the P-38. It should be significantly faster than the 38 down low, but our mossie model has low engine rating and the flame dumpers which hold it back. As an E fighter it is comparable with the 38.
You'll find the 38s and mossie's greatest problem is on defense. While superb on the offense, you are a huge target on the defense which makes you vulnerable to snapshots from cannon planes. The other mossie problem is difficulty in shedding speed to create/prevent overshots. It hold on to its inertia well, which is great for BnZ or wearing down you opponent, but makes cutting corners and over shoots a problem. To loose speed fast you much apply a lot of rudder or it just will not happen. If you ever tried to land a mossie with both props feathered you'll see what I mean about not shedding speed.
The mossie, unlike the 38, is not a pure fighter and unless you fly it timidly (which works VERY well in the mossie) it can be a handful in a furball. This is actually what makes it so much fun, likely the same reason Humble likes his A20 fighter.
edit:
btw, I posted a long mosquito guide as park of my "fix the mossie" campaign.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206568
It was sarcastic for that purpose, and emphasize some of the problems that were fixed in the previous version, but most of it is still valid. It also has likes to a few mossie films:
http://files.filefront.com/moss+f6fahf/;7684214;/fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/MOSS+16+0430ahf/;4914737;/fileinfo.html
and another:
http://files.filefront.com/moss+38+rollingahf/;9280798;/fileinfo.html
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The reason you've developed this mentality that P-38s are easy kills is the huge disparity of P-38 pilot skills. There are generaly two different types of 38 pilots. Those that are flying them as a bomber, and those that actually know how to use them. Many people in the MA use the 38 for porking bases. These usually are the Spit/Hurri/LA pilot who decides they need to carry a little more ord to target but don't want to fly a true bomber. When these pilots come across another plane after they've dumped their ord, they start figting in it like their normal ride and get spanked pretty quickly. At the other end of the spectrum are the people who KNOW the plane. Then it doesn't matter what you're flying or how good you are, they will give you the fight of your life.