Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Viking on December 16, 2007, 12:02:25 PM
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Today 50 Turkish aircraft attacked Kurd villages in Northern Iraq killing people. This is not the first time Turkey attacks Iraq; since you are occupying Iraq and thus responsible for security and safety in Iraq how do Americans feel about this?
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Thats why a long term coalition presence is necessary...If they pulled out,Turkey would invade the Kurds,Iran would invade from the east and Saudi Arabia wound invade to help the Sunnis.
And Syria would Nuke Isreal...that is if they kept trying to smuggle WMD from N Korea and assuming the IAF doesn't blow the crap outta every attempt.
And pakistan would expand as a sorta Walmart "WMD's R Us" supplier for whomever wants to get nasty(this was revealed when Libia came on side & opened their books to the UN)
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Viking, here is how I feel.
Like you're a jerk.
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Just an FYI here. There is more to the situation that your troll alludes. Here is a link to an article covering the attack. This is not an attack on Iraq or even the Kurds in general but against the PPK. That organization has been determined to be a "common enemy" by the US as well.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071216/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_iraq_kurds&printer=1;_ylt=AvaJLEd3WoSHeuDb7qjhxnwUewgF
There is a chance that intel may have been passed to the Turks by the US before the attack.
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Originally posted by Gschmuck
I am a member of NAMBLA. How do Americans feel about this?
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This "skirmish" between Turkey and the PKK has been going on for 23 years. (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/yawn.gif)
Good troll though, I'm sure you get some that bite.
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So you people are ok with this? Alrighty then. I bet the Kurds aren't though.
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Originally posted by Viking
Today 50 Turkish aircraft attacked Kurd villages in Northern Iraq killing people. This is not the first time Turkey attacks Iraq; since you are occupying Iraq and thus responsible for security and safety in Iraq how do Americans feel about this?
stinger missiles.
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I like cheese curds, fresh and deep fried. Kurds, on the other hand, I couldn't care less about.
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Originally posted by Viking
So you people are ok with this? Alrighty then. I bet the Kurds aren't though.
Yes, maybe "us people" are okay with it, maybe it is all part of our plot for world domination, along with our plans to make everyone eat McDonalds cheeseburgers?
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Originally posted by Dago
...along with our plans to make everyone eat McDonalds cheeseburgers?
Jesus, wouldn't it be more humane to just nuke 'em?
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I prefer Burger King myself.
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We had to invade Europe a couple of times too but it proved impossible to stop ALL of the idiots from killing each other and doing other really stupid stuff. We do what we can within reason, our reason that is.
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Yes it's horrible how the rest of the world are hampering your military efforts to bring reason to the world. I sympathize.
In any event here's the BBC report on the attack:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7146567.stm
Sounds like Turkey is gearing up to invade northern Iraq.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
This "skirmish" between Turkey and the PKK has been going on for 23 years. (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/yawn.gif)
Good troll though, I'm sure you get some that bite.
23 years? Try over 30.
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(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/Forum/Balls_Are_Touching.jpg)
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Originally posted by Viking
Today 50 Turkish aircraft attacked Kurd villages in Northern Iraq killing people. This is not the first time Turkey attacks Iraq; since you are occupying Iraq and thus responsible for security and safety in Iraq how do Americans feel about this?
"Kurd villages" in lieu of "PKK terrorist enclaves"?
Nice.
Since the PKK is almost universally listed as a terrorist organisation and is looking to unite various parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria into a new ethnic "Marxist-Leninist" state using violence against civilian and military targets I'd like to see the U.S. back Turkey even further.
That's how I feel about it.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
"Kurd villages" in lieu of "PKK terrorist enclaves"?
Nice.
"Iraqi officials say bombs hit 10 villages, killing one woman, while the PKK reported seven deaths."
That's what the news say.
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Since the PKK is almost universally listed as a terrorist organisation and is looking to unite various parts of Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria into a new ethnic "Marxist-Leninist" state using violence against civilian and military targets I'd like to see the U.S. back Turkey even further.
That's how I feel about it.
The US is actually not backing the Turks on this.
"But Iraq and the US have urged Turkey not to carry out its threat."
I agree that the PKK are terrorists, but I was more interested in how you people feel about Turkey invading US controlled airspace and killing people without permission. But if you're actually ok with that then I expect we will see a lot more of it in the future.
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So you are saying you're ok with the PKK doing the same thing within the borders of Turkey?
Ankara toughened its line against the PKK after a spate of rebel attacks inside Turkey that prompted widespread calls for action.
In October, Turkey's parliament voted to allow the military to launch operations into Iraq to combat the PKK, which had stepped up attacks in Turkey.
Taken from the link you posted.
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I like Turkey cause they make yummy döners. In fact I think we need more Turks here in portland so I can buy yummy döners and not eat mickyds crap.
If Saddam and the Turks and most anyone else dont like Kurds much there must be a good reason, Maybe they smell bad. Or perhaps are inconsiderate and block the drive thru lane for 5 minutes because they are stupid? I dont like kurds very much either.
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Isn't Turkey also in NATO?
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
So you are saying you're ok with the PKK doing the same thing within the borders of Turkey?
What? :huh
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Originally posted by Viking
Yes it's horrible how the rest of the world are hampering your military efforts to bring reason to the world. I sympathize.
If it weren't for the fact that some brave Norwegians (you obviously excluded) were out fighting Islamic fascists, I might mention the lack of Norwegian military efforts in the past.
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Originally posted by Angus
Isn't Turkey also in NATO?
Yes.
Then again, Turkey would not allow the US to use Turkish bases or to send troops through Turkey in the initial invasion of Iraq. It wouldn't surprise me if the US has been pursuing the northern terrorists, shall we say, "less vigorously" than they could as a consequence. Kind of a "you didn't help us, why should we go out of our way to help you" situation.
That being said, I doubt the US would go out of their way to stop the Turks, either.
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Can someone name a good forum where we might be able to import some decent trolls from?
G and Beetle have went over the hill and are useless entertainmentwise.
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Why, seems like you and Dago are doing fine trolling my thread.
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Originally posted by Viking
Today 50 Turkish aircraft attacked Kurd villages in Northern Iraq killing people. This is not the first time Turkey attacks Iraq; since you are occupying Iraq and thus responsible for security and safety in Iraq how do Americans feel about this?
Good for Turkey.
ack-ack
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Why would I have a problem with Turkey attacking a terrorist group? Explain to me the "downside" of this action.
Are you trying to suggest that the U.S. should be "outraged" that Turkey was "in our airspace"?
What makes you think we didn't let them? Who's to say we didn't have a hand in the planning of this operation? (at least w/ some intelligence support)
No, I have no problem with terrorists being killed.
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Originally posted by Viking
Why, seems like you and Dago are doing fine trolling my thread.
Er, that's feeding a troll. Trolling a thread is the first post. :huh
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This just in.....
Norways response to the Turkish onslaught of innocent Kurdish civilians...
*the sound of crikets chirping*
Please take you and yer dumb arse troll back under the bridge.
Mac
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*trip, trap, trip, trap*
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(http://muitobarulho.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/gollum.jpg)
My Precious.....
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Originally posted by WMLute
Why would I have a problem with Turkey attacking a terrorist group? Explain to me the "downside" of this action.
Are you trying to suggest that the U.S. should be "outraged" that Turkey was "in our airspace"?
Are you suggesting everybody can just violate US airspace without permission and kill people/terrorists/whatever? I find that hard to believe. Iraq and the US have repeatedly urged Turkey not to act on its threats to attack rebels/terrorists in Iraq.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Er, that's feeding a troll. Trolling a thread is the first post. :huh
The first post, my post, is a serious question regarding a recent news event. That you don't like it does not make it a troll.
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Originally posted by Viking
The first post, my post, is a serious question regarding a recent news event. That you don't like it does not make it a troll.
No, its a troll.
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US denies backing Turkey PKK raid
The US has denied it gave permission for Turkish aircraft to carry out air strikes against Kurdish PKK separatist rebels in northern Iraq on Sunday.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7147375.stm
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Originally posted by Slash27
No, its a troll.
Oh stop whining like a little girl. :cry
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Originally posted by WMLute
Why would I have a problem with Turkey attacking a terrorist group? Explain to me the "downside" of this action.
Are you trying to suggest that the U.S. should be "outraged" that Turkey was "in our airspace"?
What makes you think we didn't let them? Who's to say we didn't have a hand in the planning of this operation? (at least w/ some intelligence support)
No, I have no problem with terrorists being killed.
Kurds work with Americans in Iraq.Get it?:)
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Originally posted by Viking
Oh stop whining like a little girl. :cry
Dont like it? Use the ignore function or stfu. Simple fix:aok
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Originally posted by Slash27
Waah waah waah! :cry
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Suit yourself putz
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Viking, please find out how much it would cost you for a one way ticket to a Kurdish village in the crosshairs. I'll pay for your ticket. :D
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Originally posted by Viking
Are you suggesting everybody can just violate US airspace without permission and kill people/terrorists/whatever? I find that hard to believe. Iraq and the US have repeatedly urged Turkey not to act on its threats to attack rebels/terrorists in Iraq.
OBVIOUSLY the U.S. will take the "official" stance they have. (duh)
Do you REALLY think 50 nme planes will be able to fly over Iraq w/o the U.S. allowing it to happen? (duh)
An even BETTER question is why am I feeding an obvious troll?
(a really banal and idiotic one I might add)
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Originally posted by WMLute
An even BETTER question is why am I feeding an obvious troll?
(a really banal and idiotic one I might add)
It`s the holiday season. :)
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Originally posted by WMLute
OBVIOUSLY the U.S. will take the "official" stance they have. (duh)
Which is a bad move since they look even more powerless to control Iraq now to the Arabs.
Originally posted by WMLute
Do you REALLY think 50 nme planes will be able to fly over Iraq w/o the U.S. allowing it to happen? (duh)
Yeah, I think the Turks can do pretty much what they want in the area and the US won't dare to stop them. And this incident proves me right. Turkey has amassed 100,000 troops with tanks and artillery on the border and the Turkish government is threatening to invade north Iraq.
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Originally posted by Viking
Turkey has amassed 100,000 troops with tanks and artillery on the border and the Turkish government is threatening to invade north Iraq.
tell turkey they are about 5 years too late with the 100,000 troops.
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Originally posted by john9001
tell turkey they are about 5 years too late with the 100,000 troops.
Gotta agree there John.
The question is though, now that they are there, what do they intend to do with them?
Given their recent refusals of base rights and passage rights, just how much sway does the wishes of the coalition have on what the Turkish armed forces do or don't do?
Would they adhere to any lines drawn in the sand, or would they keep rolling south?
Are they aiming to take out terrorists, or wipe out the Kurds?
For all you lot shouting 'troll!', take a second look.
When you guys stop seeing attacks on your national character behind every post a foreigner makes, you might find there are some very pertinent questions being asked.
Viking may like poking you all with a stick every so often, but he has a very good point.
There is a recently not-so-cooperative, well armed, well trained military threatening to invade the northern reaches of a country our coalition forces are currently in charge of, and I assume guaranteeing the security of.
If that isn't a topic worthy of serious discussion here, what is?
One would assume that the Turks are in no hurry to alienate the NATO pact members, but how solid is that assumption? Do they see a situation where they can expand their borders a bit, wipe out some old enemies and pretty much get away with it because everyone has their hands full as it is at the moment ?
Hypothetical situation for you......
The Turks roll south over the border and hit the Kurds hard.
The Coalition command says " OK, thats far enough, stay North of xxxxxxx"
The Turks ignore it and keep rolling south chasing the Kurds.
What would be the coalition's reaction ?
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Viking, please find out how much it would cost you for a one way ticket to a Kurdish village in the crosshairs. I'll pay for your ticket. :D
Take beetle with you and I'll contribute as well.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
Hypothetical situation for you......
The Turks roll south over the border and hit the Kurds hard.
The Coalition command says " OK, thats far enough, stay North of xxxxxxx"
The Turks ignore it and keep rolling south chasing the Kurds.
What would be the coalition's reaction ?
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q37/acfireguy26/funny/nookie1.gif)
NOOk! 1eleventy1
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Originally posted by Bluedog
What would be the coalition's reaction ?
I would imagine, on the table would be:
1) Expulsion from NATO
2) Cessation of any/all foreign aid
3) Expulsion of all Turkish nationals from NATO member nations
4) Shutdown of the Iraq-Turkey oil pipeline and resulting revenues
5) Perminant end to any ambitions of becoming a full member of the EU
6) Any of a multitude of economic sanctions
Turkey has far too much to lose economically from going against NATO's wishes to make such a drastic move. IF they mount a major military excursion (BIG IF), it will be with NATO's blessings, however back-room those blessings may be.
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Found this interesting quote from a Yahoo news article about the Turkish Air Raids into Iraq (With Allah as their witness, they thought they could fly)
Looks like my take on it was 100% spot on. (per. usual)
Viking, does it suck to be so totally wrong about so many things so often? I wouldn't know what that feels like of course, but if you need to share, I want you to consider this BBS a "safe place". We are here for ya' little guy. I know it can't be easy to be so out of touch with reality.
"America gave intelligence," Kanal D television in Turkey quoted the nation's military chief, Gen. Yasar Buyukanit, as saying. "But more importantly, America last night opened (Iraqi) airspace to us. By opening the airspace, America gave its approval to this operation."
Washington is trying to balance support for two key allies: the Turkish government and the Iraqi Kurds. Despite their apparent support for a limited raid, the United States remains firmly opposed to any major Turkish military operation into northern Iraq — which could disrupt one of the calmest areas of Iraq and run the risk of destabilizing the entire region.
In Washington, a Pentagon official said the U.S. military had "deconflicted the air space" in Iraq for the strikes — that is, the U.S. made sure Turkey would have clear use of the skies to enable the bombings.
Another Pentagon official said the U.S. military has been sharing intelligence with Turkey, but that he did not know exactly what information was given to aid with the air strikes or when it might have been given. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to speak on the record.
Link to YahooNews article quoted (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)
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"America gave intelligence," Kanal D television in Turkey quoted the nation's military chief, Gen. Yasar Buyukanit, as saying. "But more importantly, America last night opened (Iraqi) airspace to us. By opening the airspace, America gave its approval to this operation."
Washington is trying to balance support for two key allies: the Turkish government and the Iraqi Kurds. Despite their apparent support for a limited raid, the United States remains firmly opposed to any major Turkish military operation into northern Iraq — which could disrupt one of the calmest areas of Iraq and run the risk of destabilizing the entire region.
In Washington, a Pentagon official said the U.S. military had "deconflicted the air space" in Iraq for the strikes — that is, the U.S. made sure Turkey would have clear use of the skies to enable the bombings.
Another Pentagon official said the U.S. military has been sharing intelligence with Turkey, but that he did not know exactly what information was given to aid with the air strikes or when it might have been given. Both officials spoke on condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to speak on the record.
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Why does this seem so hideously wrong?
I mean, we've had literally thousands of troops fighting, dieing, getting maimed, etc. to try to bring peace and stability to Iraq, And now this?
Doesn't this seem like all it will do is to turn the Kurds' against us, and destroy our credibility with not only the Iraqi people, but all of the Arabs' as well?
We should have just told Turkey tough cookies. If you catch them on your side of the border, fine. Fly over here bombing them, WE will shoot you down.
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Why are you and Viking thinking that every Kurd is a member of the PKK? This is not an ethnic cleansing operation, it's an attack on an identified terrorist organisation that has made multiple terrorist attacks within Turkey's borders. How are you 2 not understanding this?
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
We should have just told Turkey tough cookies. If you catch them on your side of the border, fine. Fly over here bombing them, WE will shoot you down.
Turkish Army is one of the largest standing armies in the world and the second largest army of NATO.You dont wanna go into war with it,not right now.
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Originally posted by KgB
Turkish Army is one of the largest standing armies in the world and the second largest army of NATO.You dont wanna go into war with it,not right now.
saddam had the third largest army in the would and they were "battle hardened", they lasted 100 hours.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
We should have just told Turkey tough cookies. If you catch them on your side of the border, fine. Fly over here bombing them, WE will shoot you down.
So you advocate supporting a terrorist group, one that the US has labeled as such? The PKK are launching attacks from the Iraqi side of the border and using it as a safe haven. Turkey has the right to go after them. We cry about being in Iraq so we don't have suicide bombers on our streets, what's wrong with Turkey ensuring the same doesn't happen anymore on their streets?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by john9001
saddam had the third largest army in the would and they were "battle hardened", they lasted 100 hours.
Yep, they used Soviet tactics and equipment and were mostly trained in static defenses which served them well in their war with Iran. Using those tactics to fight the 1st Gulf War, it's easy to see how they were defeated by a more mobile army.
Turkey on the other hand has US equipment and very well trained and disciplined army. They also have a reputation of being fierce and tough fighters, something the Europeans found out first hand in World War I.
ack-ack
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whats wrong with the turks giving the kurds in turkey autonomy?
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
They also have a reputation of being fierce and tough fighters, something the Europeans found out first hand in World War I.
ack-ack
i thought the arabs defeated the turks in WW1?
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Originally posted by john9001
i thought the arabs defeated the turks in WW1?
Brits and Soviets i think,not sure.
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Originally posted by KgB
Turkish Army is one of the largest standing armies in the world
Well they're not standing anymore...CNN reports 300 Turkish troops crossed the Iraqi border in an attack.
Aircraft & long-ranged missles launched too.
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Originally posted by john9001
whats wrong with the turks giving the kurds in turkey autonomy?
The Kurds don't want autonomy, they want their own homeland of Kurdistan which spans across parts of Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and small portions of Armenia and Azerbaijan.
(http://schema-root.org/region/middle_east/kurdistan/kurdistan.gif)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by john9001
i thought the arabs defeated the turks in WW1?
Do yourself a favor and open a book and read some World War I history, specifically the Battle for the Dardanelles and the amphibious landings at Gallipoli and the fight for Mesopotamia and the Arab Revolt of 1916. Who knows, you may just learn something.
You also may want to check out the borders of the Ottoman Empire, which at its height controlled a vast area of Europe and the Middle East.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Yep, they used Soviet tactics and equipment and were mostly trained in static defenses which served them well in their war with Iran. Using those tactics to fight the 1st Gulf War, it's easy to see how they were defeated by a more mobile army.
Turkey on the other hand has US equipment and very well trained and disciplined army. They also have a reputation of being fierce and tough fighters, something the Europeans found out first hand in World War I.
ack-ack
Well said. Turkey uses western NATO level equipment and tactics. Thyh are on an order totally different then Saddams army was.
True they may be the poor man of NATO but they do have a well trained professional army with an officer corp that has studied in the west. The Turks have a well equipped air force, "F-16s", and a mobile land force which includes paratroopers, special forces, and amphibious marines.
Un like Iraq was they are not modeled on the Soviet military machine and would fight a modern war much better then Iraq could have. Another thing about the Turks, like the Iraqis, is they love the old stuff that still works. The Turks love the quad 0.50s for air defense. I remember them ringing their airbases with them.
But in all other ways the Turks are completely unlike the Iraqi military was.
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Originally posted by Bluedog
For all you lot shouting 'troll!', take a second look.
When you guys stop seeing attacks on your national character behind every post a foreigner makes, you might find there are some very pertinent questions being asked.
really. some of you guys get very defensive as soon as a non-american (95% of the world's population remember) comments on or questions any aspect of US foreign policy. for domestic policy you have the right to say keep your nose out, none of your business. for foreign policy you absolutely do not.
please at least start with a view that there is a serious question worth discussing. :)
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If we have to fight Turkey, I just hope we don't face THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCNi9I1dHk4&eurl=http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=26630) guy.
:rofl
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I fought turkey and won last month.
I expect another skirmish around the 25th of this month.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Do yourself a favor and open a book and read some World War I history, specifically the Battle for the Dardanelles and the amphibious landings at Gallipoli and the fight for Mesopotamia and the Arab Revolt of 1916. Who knows, you may just learn something.
You also may want to check out the borders of the Ottoman Empire, which at its height controlled a vast area of Europe and the Middle East.
ack-ack
you go read a book.
<
Arab Revolt was a major cause of Ottoman Empire's defeat. Campaigns of Arabian Revolt started with the Battle of Makkah by Sherif Hussain of Mecca with the help of Britain in June 1916 and ended with the Ottoman surrender of Damascus. Fakhri Pasha the Ottoman commander of Medina showed stubborn resistance during more than two and half years long Siege of Medina.
>>
:lol
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Originally posted by E25280
1) Expulsion from NATO
Lol on what grounds? Last time I checked Iraq was not a member of NATO. In fact the NATO alliance have no legal grounds outside of Europe and North America. In Iraq NATO does not exist.
“Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security . “
Originally posted by E25280
3) Expulsion of all Turkish nationals from NATO member nations
You must live in a fascinating world were such things are even remotely possible. :lol
Originally posted by E25280
4) Shutdown of the Iraq-Turkey oil pipeline and resulting revenues
Well … if Turkey invades north Iraq then I suppose the pipeline will be in Turkish hands, along with all the oilfields in the Kurdish part of Iraq.
Originally posted by E25280
5) Perminant end to any ambitions of becoming a full member of the EU
At this time that looks rather unlikely in any event.
Originally posted by WMLute
Found this interesting quote from a Yahoo news article about the Turkish Air Raids into Iraq (With Allah as their witness, they thought they could fly)
Looks like my take on it was 100% spot on. (per. usual)
Viking, does it suck to be so totally wrong about so many things so often? I wouldn't know what that feels like of course, but if you need to share, I want you to consider this BBS a "safe place". We are here for ya' little guy. I know it can't be easy to be so out of touch with reality.
Link to YahooNews article quoted (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq)
I guess you believed Iraqi news sources over your own government too. You believed Baghdad Bob too I suppose. :lol
Turkish soldiers cross into Iraq:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7149364.stm
My bet is that the US/Coalition will do nothing … and look even weaker to the Arabs.
Originally posted by RTHolmes
really. some of you guys get very defensive as soon as a non-american (95% of the world's population remember) comments on or questions any aspect of US foreign policy. for domestic policy you have the right to say keep your nose out, none of your business. for foreign policy you absolutely do not.
please at least start with a view that there is a serious question worth discussing. :)
Lol yeah, most of these people’s minds are as open as a Pandora’s box. You get used to it after a while.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The Kurds don't want autonomy, they want their own homeland of Kurdistan which spans across parts of Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and small portions of Armenia and Azerbaijan.
i think Armenia lost enough of its land as it is:)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/N22/historymap.gif)
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Originally posted by WMLute
If we have to fight Turkey, I just hope we don't face THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCNi9I1dHk4&eurl=http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=26630) guy.
:rofl
never fear, we can outsource to these TWO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Pjo0WjBcs&feature=related)
dare ya to watch the whole thing.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
I fought turkey and won last month.
I expect another skirmish around the 25th of this month.
:aok
Ditto
Mac
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Originally posted by john9001
you go read a book.
<
Arab Revolt was a major cause of Ottoman Empire's defeat. Campaigns of Arabian Revolt started with the Battle of Makkah by Sherif Hussain of Mecca with the help of Britain in June 1916 and ended with the Ottoman surrender of Damascus. Fakhri Pasha the Ottoman commander of Medina showed stubborn resistance during more than two and half years long Siege of Medina.
>>
:lol
Thank you for supporting my previous post. The Arabs would have never defeated the Ottoman Turks in Arabia if it wasn't for the British support and the defeat of the Ottoman Turk forces in Mesopotamia by the British.
By 1916, the Ottoman Turks were already on the last ropes, suffering major losses in the Dardanelles, Mesopotamia and on the northern front against the Russians. Basically, they were fighting a war on all fronts and in addition, had internal strife that often required force to put down.
So to say, the Arabs were the ones to defeat the Ottoman Turks is incorrect. They were just the final nail in the Ottoman Empire's coffin.
You may now go outside and play for recess.
ack-ack
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #2
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by KgB
i think Armenia lost enough of its land as it is:)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/N22/historymap.gif)
They sure have gotten the wrong end of the stick.
On a side note about Kurdistan, as a country it never existed.
ack-ack
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See Rule #2
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
They sure have gotten the wrong end of the stick.
On a side note about Kurdistan, as a country it never existed.
ack-ack
I know,and i dont think it ever will.Not with PKK arround.
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Originally posted by Dago
If it weren't for the fact that some brave Norwegians (you obviously excluded) were out fighting Islamic fascists, I might mention the lack of Norwegian military efforts in the past.
exsqueeze me?
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IMO, I highly doubt the United States would ever unknowingly allow any countries aircraft (especially those really fast ones, that every other country buys from us) into "OUR" airspace, without permission. And I'm fairly positive, Turkey asked permission to do so... I have to agree with Lute. This is some rediculous chit.
Do you realize how many AWACS we have over there? We have the entire region under radar control. And If there was any threat to "our" airspace or our people, those Turkish planes wouldn't have ever made it home.
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It's interesting that so many Americans are supporting the Turkish attack on Northern Iraq in pursuit of the PKK.
Let's raise an interesting hypothetical analogy. I wonder what the reaction would be to the RAF attacking particular targets thought to be important to the IRA within the Irish Republic, prior to British troops crossing the border into Ireland itself.
Would those events been met with the same response?
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See Rule #2
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Originally posted by Dowding
It's interesting that so many Americans are supporting the Turkish attack on Northern Iraq in pursuit of the PKK.
Let's raise an interesting hypothetical analogy. I wonder what the reaction would be to the RAF attacking particular targets thought to be important to the IRA within the Irish Republic, prior to British troops crossing the border into Ireland itself.
Would those events been met with the same response?
I'd support the British 100% without hesitation.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The Kurds don't want autonomy, they want their own homeland of Kurdistan which spans across parts of Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq and small portions of Armenia and Azerbaijan.
(http://schema-root.org/region/middle_east/kurdistan/kurdistan.gif)
ack-ack
God, imagine that. A country wants to rule themselves by carving it out of other countries' land and uses terrorist like activities to get there.
Who does this remind me of? Why does it sound so familiar?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
God, imagine that. A country wants to rule themselves by carving it out of other countries' land and uses terrorist like activities to get there.
Who does this remind me of? Why does it sound so familiar?
Not sure about using terrorist like activities,Israel?
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Originally posted by Viking
A bunch of snivling garbage.
My post was in response to someone elses hypothetical. That hypothetical was if Turkey in effect ignored their NATO allies' limitations and tried for a bona-fide landgrab in northern Iraq.
The point still stands, they have too much to lose by doing so. All risk, no reward.
How nice of you to try to move the goalposts for the original poster, instead of minding your own business. Further proof you can not control your trollish nature.
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Originally posted by Viking
Last time I checked Iraq was not a member of NATO. In fact the NATO alliance have no legal grounds outside of Europe and North America. In Iraq NATO does not exist.
I do believe it was turkey that was being referred to :huh
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Originally posted by Viking
Today 50 Turkish aircraft attacked Kurd villages in Northern Iraq killing people. This is not the first time Turkey attacks Iraq; since you are occupying Iraq and thus responsible for security and safety in Iraq how do Americans feel about this?
Hey...if you are from Norway you're "occupying" too
Norway: 150 troops (deployed 7/03 - withdrawn 8/06)
.....well maybe not...thanks for the support :aok
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Turkey is a popular and effective member (and leader) of the ISAF in Afghanistan, and have an excellent record of counter insurgency against the Taleban . They are also the only Muslim member of the ISAF, and allowed US forces to operate from Turkish bases from the beginning of operations against the Taleban.
And they were also far from the only member of NATO who would not actively assist in the invasion of Iraq - but still had combat troops in Afghanistan.
Even George W won't butcher the current relationship with Ankara
Tronsky
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Originally posted by KgB
Not sure about using terrorist like activities,Israel?
USA.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
USA.
You talking about our early years as a nation? (this is kind of off the related topic)
Mathis
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Originally posted by bnasty
You talking about our early years as a nation? (this is kind of off the related topic)
Mathis
Yes.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
God, imagine that. A country wants to rule themselves by carving it out of other countries' land and uses terrorist like activities to get there.
Who does this remind me of? Why does it sound so familiar?
What's your beef with what America did during the 1st 150 years?
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Originally posted by E25280
My post was in response to someone elses hypothetical. That hypothetical was if Turkey in effect ignored their NATO allies' limitations and tried for a bona-fide landgrab in northern Iraq.
And my response to you was exactly within that context: If Turkey invades north Iraq and occupy the Kurdish parts of Iraq including the oilfields and pipeline.
You made a series of uneducated mistakes in your assumptions that Turkey would face serious repercussions if they did invade.
1. You failed to realize that NATO has no power/jurisdiction whatsoever beyond the European and North American continents (+Greece and Turkey). Turkey and the USA could very well go to war with each other, and as long as the war is fought outside Europe/America NATO has no mandate to get involved.
2. There are no provisions in the NATO Charter to expel a member nation for whatever reason. Membership is voluntary, so is leaving the alliance. If you don’t believe me read the treaty for yourself: http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm
3. You actually though that Europe and Europeans care more for the Kurds than we care for a good relationship with Turkey. That we would expel Turkish nationals! :lol I can assure you that if Turkey invades Iraq the worst they can expect from Europe is a couple of carefully worded diplomatic letters expressing our displeasure. Say … more of the same that we gave you people when you invaded Iraq.
Originally posted by E25280
How nice of you to try to move the goalposts for the original poster, instead of minding your own business. Further proof you can not control your trollish nature.
I did no such thing. You’re just too dimwitted to follow a simple line of discussion.
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Originally posted by GoldenP51
Hey...if you are from Norway you're "occupying" too
Norway: 150 troops (deployed 7/03 - withdrawn 8/06)
.....well maybe not...thanks for the support :aok
We were there on a humanitarian mission in support of UN Resolution 1511 calling for a multinational force to help bring stability and security to Iraq after you clearly botched the job.
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Originally posted by Viking
1. You failed to realize that NATO has no power/jurisdiction whatsoever beyond the European and North American continents (+Greece and Turkey). Turkey and the USA could very well go to war with each other, and as long as the war is fought outside Europe/America NATO has no mandate to get involved.
You really think Turkey would go to war with the U.S.? We are allies. We share intelligence, and support each others militarys.
You have some valid points in your discussions, but IMO I don't think so.
Further, you really shouldn't bash people in your responses. Your just getting a negative response to your posts from others, which will inturn hinder your words getting through to anyone here. If they are really your honest opinion, keep it at that. Seems like you enjoy the backlash.
Mathis
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Originally posted by bnasty
You really think Turkey would go to war with the U.S.?
No I don't think so. It was a hypothetical scenario proposed by another poster.
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Originally posted by bnasty
Further, you really shouldn't bash people in your responses. Your just getting a negative response to your posts from others, which will inturn hinder your words getting through to anyone here. If they are really your honest opinion, keep it at that. Seems like you enjoy the backlash.
The amount of badmouthing I get on this forum is staggering. Granted, my opinions are of the controversial sort and I don't pull my punches. But you can't blame a guy for giving a little back can you?
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Originally posted by Hap
What's your beef with what America did during the 1st 150 years?
Promised freedom, installed the same plutocracy. The only difference was the people who ruled.
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Again, and this is for SOME people who just don't seem to "get" it, I will go slow.
Turkey
Had
Permission
From
The
U.S.A.
To
Take
Military
Action
In
Northern
Iraq
And you know what? Nobody in the U.S. gives a flip that Turkey attacks some terrorists in N. Iraq. You know why? Because we are pretty much "pro" killing terrorists in this country. (Kalifornia being an exception of course)
Nobody's "mad" at Turkey. Nobody here thinks Turkey did anything other than what we ALLOWED them to do.
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What lute said
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Originally posted by WMLute
Again, and this is for SOME people who just don't seem to "get" it, I will go slow.
Turkey
Had
Permission
From
The
U.S.A.
To
Take
Military
Action
In
Northern
Iraq
Where do you get your information?
US Denies Approving Turkey Raid (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,523757,00.html)
US denies backing Turkey PKK raid (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7147375.stm)
US denies backing Turkish raid in Iraq (http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Iraq/10175454.html)
The only people saying the US approved the incursions are the Turkish authorities. The US government denies it.
Where do you get your information WMLute?
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Originally posted by Viking
We were there on a humanitarian mission in support of UN Resolution 1511 calling for a multinational force to help bring stability and security to Iraq after you clearly botched the job.
what was the last major operation anywhere in the world that Norway took the leading role in?
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Originally posted by GoldenP51
what was the last major operation anywhere in the world that Norway took the leading role in?
Probably one of the wars we had with Sweden back in the 18th century, why?
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Originally posted by Viking
Probably one of the wars we had with Sweden back in the 18th century, why?
My point is its easy to criticize.
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Shouldn't it be?
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Originally posted by Viking
Where do you get your information?
US Denies Approving Turkey Raid (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,523757,00.html)
US denies backing Turkey PKK raid (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7147375.stm)
US denies backing Turkish raid in Iraq (http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Iraq/10175454.html)
The only people saying the US approved the incursions are the Turkish authorities. The US government denies it.
Where do you get your information WMLute?
Nice spin.
US embassy in Baghdad said it denies having given permission based on the fact that they do not have that power of authority.
We have not approved any decision, it is not for us to approve. However, we were informed before the event," the official told Reuters news agency.
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From the BBC link:
"A US official in Turkey said commanders had not approved the attacks, but had been informed before they took place."
Ripsnort, why don't you provide a source where US authorities says they approved the attack?
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Originally posted by Viking
From the BBC link:
"A US official in Turkey said commanders had not approved the attacks, but had been informed before they took place."
Ripsnort, why don't you provide a source where US authorities says they approved the attack?
US embassy officials in either Iraq nor Turkey do NOT have the authority to approve Turkish attacks! How dense can you be?!?!
Why do I need to provide a source where they said they approved them? The U.S. is not Turkey.
I believe the U.S. just chose to look the other way.
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Heh, so you're now saying US authorities did not approve the attack. Why didn't you just say so in the first place?
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Originally posted by Viking
Heh, so you're now saying US authorities did not approve the attack. Why didn't you just say so in the first place?
You guys' are in here fighting about whether or not the U.S. approved the attacks. They did.
The question should be why, and what kind of repurcussions' the U.S. is going to have because of it.(Terrorist, diplomatic, economic, whatever.)
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
You guys' are in here fighting about whether or not the U.S. approved the attacks. They did.
What is your source?
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Originally posted by Viking
Heh, so you're now saying US authorities did not approve the attack. Why didn't you just say so in the first place?
They don't approve or disapprove of anything Turkey does. Damn, do I have to spell this out? Turkey military is not US military. Our commanders do not tell their commanders what or what not to do.
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When the Turkish military operates in US controlled airspace your commanders most definitely can tell them what or what not to do. You were talking about being dense...
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Originally posted by Viking
When the Turkish military operates in US controlled airspace your commanders most definitely can tell them what or what not to do. You were talking about being dense...
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I believe the U.S. just chose to look the other way.
*SIGH* Everything is not black and white as you'd like it to be, but perhaps that's the only way you can comprehend politics?
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So after all this... who really gives a (http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/censored.gif) anymore.
It's like this (http://www.z4-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/fightwall.gif) after all the bickering back 'n forth.
Mathis
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(sigh)
St. Petersburg Times (thought you'd like a Russian Link) (http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=24528)
The attack came a month after the U.S. promised to share intelligence with Turkey to help combat the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK and Turkey’s military chief, Gen. Yasar Buyukanit, said U.S. intelligence was used Sunday.
“America gave intelligence,” Kanal D television quoted Buyukanit as saying. “But more importantly, America last night opened (the Iraqi) airspace to us. By opening the airspace, America gave its approval to this operation.”
In Washington, a Pentagon official said that the U.S. military has been sharing intelligence with the Turks, but that he did not know exactly what information was given to aid with the airstrikes or when it might have been given.
Another defense official said the U.S. had made sure Turkey would have clear use of the skies to enable the strikes.
They both spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the record.
Washington Post Article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR2007121702150.html?hpid=topnews) (lots of good info here)
If you can't "see" that the Turkish attack "approved" the strike yet can't "officially" approve it (for obvious political reasons) then I can't help do anything further but heave a sight for your lack of insight and understanding on "how stuff works" in the world.
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Originally posted by WMLute
(sigh)
St. Petersburg Times (thought you'd like a Russian Link) (http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=24528)
Washington Post Article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/17/AR2007121702150.html?hpid=topnews) (lots of good info here)
If you can't "see" that the Turkish attack "approved" the strike yet can't "officially" approve it (for obvious political reasons) then I can't help do anything further but heave a sight for your lack of insight and understanding on "how stuff works" in the world.
Thank you.
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Originally posted by GoldenP51
what was the last major operation anywhere in the world that Norway took the leading role in?
Define major operation, and what that has to do with anything.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Define major operation, and what that has to do with anything.
"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." THEODORE ROOSEVELT (Paris Sorbonne,1910)
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Quoting Roosevelt does not answer my question
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Quoting Roosevelt does not answer my question
Ahhh... but it did.
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I think it was that it matters not the size of the operation, but that the mere presence itself speaks for the quality of the man of men who participated?:confused:
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Originally posted by Viking
What is your source?
If the USA didnt approve what Turkey did there would be 50 burning piles of scrap laying in the desert. Simple as that.
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Lets see:
[opinion alert]
As I understand it, the USA alone has no power to approve or disapprove any action in Iraq, they can recommend a course of action or lobby against a course of action.
The COALITION does the approval or disapproval of action in Iraq.
In order for Turkey to mount any action in Iraq, it would have to be in some way given the OK by the coalition, even if such permission was merely in the form of non intervention.
How does that sound?
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Originally posted by Larry
If the USA didnt approve what Turkey did there would be 50 burning piles of scrap laying in the desert. Simple as that.
No it isnt "Simple as that"
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Originally posted by WMLute
Ahhh... but it did.
how does that speach define what a major operation is?
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Originally posted by WMLute
If you can't "see" that the Turkish attack "approved" the strike yet can't "officially" approve it (for obvious political reasons) then I can't help do anything further but heave a sight for your lack of insight and understanding on "how stuff works" in the world.
Ah, why didn't you just say so in the first place? Why didn't you tell us that you had no evidence whatsoever to back up your speculations and that you just pulled that "they did" out of your ars*cough* ... hat?
As for insight and understanding on "how stuff works" in the world" I bet you were one of those people who actually believed Iraq had WMD? Perhaps you even still think they did. How about "they moved them to Syria"?
All this in the next exiting episode of WMLute's How Stuff Works! :lol
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Originally posted by Viking
Ah, why didn't you just say so in the first place? Why didn't you tell us that you had no evidence whatsoever to back up your speculations and that you just pulled that "they did" out of your ars*cough* ... hat?
Both of our "opinions" are mere "speculation" there chuckles. Granted, mine has "unofficial sources" (and logic and reason of course) it can be based on, whereas yours is based on...
uhhh....
What exactly is yours based on again? Besides hyperbole and a love for trolling that is.
Heck, now that I think about it, your original and subsequent posts have been nothing BUT speculation.
I stated an opinion, backed it up, and what have you done? (besides "trying" to deflect that fact i'm 100% spot on (as usual) and shifting the discussion elsewhere now)
Originally posted by Viking As for insight and understanding on "how stuff works" in the world" I bet you were one of those people who actually believed Iraq had WMD? Perhaps you even still think they did. How about "they moved them to Syria"?
All this in the next exiting episode of WMLute's How Stuff Works! :lol [/B]
Hell, I KNOW Iraq had WMD's. We sold them to 'em. (duh)
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Originally posted by WMLute
Both of our "opinions" are mere "speculation" there chuckles. Granted, mine has "unofficial sources" (and logic and reason of course) it can be based on, whereas yours is based on...
uhhh....
What exactly is yours based on again? Besides hyperbole and a love for trolling that is.
My opinion is based on statements by the US embassy in Iraq and a ”US official in Turkey”.
Originally posted by WMLute
I stated an opinion, backed it up, and what have you done? (besides "trying" to deflect that fact i'm 100% spot on (as usual) and shifting the discussion elsewhere now)
You provided a link to a Russian newspaper (wow!) and a link to a Washington Post article that stated “[the official] denied that the United States had explicitly approved the strikes”. So your “back up” actually disproves your “opinion” and supports mine. WTG! :aok
Originally posted by WMLute
Hell, I KNOW Iraq had WMD's. We sold them to 'em. (duh)
I rest my case! :lol
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Originally posted by Viking
So your “back up” actually disproves your “opinion” and supports mine. WTG! :aok
I rest my case! :lol
Is english your 2nd language and you have problems w/ reading comprehension by chance?
My links stated that the U.S. DID approve the strikes, but not "officially". The mere fact that 50 Turkish planes were in OUR airspace and not shot down with impunity is "fact" enough that we allowed it.
Your links said what... That "officially" the U.S. did not condone that attack. Heck I told you that. This is where we use things like "reason" and "logic" to read between the lines on how politics works and how governments do things. How sad you are unable to do such a simple thing.
How is all this zipping over your head?
What is MOST hillarious is you ACTUALLY think you might be winning this argument? (snicker)
Geez man, cut y'er losses and run. Nobody thinks you are correct in most anything you have post (common theme in threads you participate in) and all you are doing is making me feel (even more) sorry for you, which I didn't think was possible.
I had a better formulated argument on a public bus once w/ a special needs person who debated with me on the subtle nuiances of the A-Team than I have gotten with you.
What case are you resting btw?
(prepares self for another fount of blather about to be spewed)
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Originally posted by WMLute
Is english your 2nd language and you have problems w/ reading comprehension by chance?
No. English is my third or fourth language.
Originally posted by WMLute
My links stated that the U.S. DID approve the strikes, but not "officially". The mere fact that 50 Turkish planes were in OUR airspace and not shot down with impunity is "fact" enough that we allowed it.
This is what you said:
Originally posted by WMLute
Again, and this is for SOME people who just don't seem to "get" it, I will go slow.
Turkey
Had
Permission
From
The
U.S.A.
To
Take
Military
Action
In
Northern
Iraq
“Had permission”. If your point is that the US simply looked the other way and let the Turks do what they want then that was established on page one … with my first post. However if you actually mean to say what you actually are saying … that Turkey “had permission” then all the sources I can find and the sources you have provided say you are wrong. It seems the US did not give the Turks permission, but simply looked the other way … which is quite obvious since they didn’t do anything.
I’ve been arguing that the US did not give permission, but simply chose to allow it. You seem to be arguing (difficult to tell with all your backpedaling in your recent posts) that the US gave permission to the Turks.
Originally posted by WMLute
What is MOST hillarious is you ACTUALLY think you might be winning this argument? (snicker)
So you are arguing to “win” the “argument”. Most telling, WMTroll.
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Actually schultz you are just aguing period. It's rather tedious of you.
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What's that supposed to mean? :huh
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WMTroll??
(something about a pot and a kettle here...)
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Originally posted by Viking
No. English is my third or fourth language.
Followed by Ignorance and Stupidity.... but who's counting?
:rofl
Mac
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Originally posted by Maverick
Actually schultz you are just aguing period. It's rather tedious of you.
That is his purpose for frequenting this board. It's all just for his twisted amusement.
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It's amazing how well people think they know me. I don't know who you are or why you frequent this forum. Nor do I care to know. If you have an interesting opinion on a debate I'm engaged in that's enough for me.
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Hmm... American have problems with countries going and blowing the crap outta terrorists? Nope, we generally approve of the death and destruction of terrorists and are normally willing to aid in assisting other countries when they decided to play whack-a-mole with terrorists.
Does the US have problems with Turkey violating our controlled airspace?
Not exactly a violation when we roll out the red carpet for your planes. You really think the Turks decided to roll 50 planes and fly into air space we control without askign first? I don't think so. Sure it would have been a great business move for Boeing/Lockheed if the Turks wouldn't have asked. I mean I'm sure those two companies wouldn't have minded a new order form the Turkish Airforce to replace those 50 planes.
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Originally posted by KgB
No it isnt "Simple as that"
Ah but it is. If they didnt want them in Iraq airspace they would have scrambled interceptors. They might have even told them to leave the restricted airspace. If they didnt comply they would have shot them down.
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The Kurds were asking to get spanked and Turkey obliged. These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along.