Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Yarbles on December 18, 2007, 10:11:50 AM
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This is a well worn post Iam sure but having compared it to other so called "dweeb" and perked planes under 10k it shines a bit too brightly.
I think its historical dissadvantages which are not modelled would be poor build quality, unreliability and scarceity. The latter would be taken care of by a small perk factor like that applied to the Spit 14. The La 5 and Yak are comparable with the other non perked late war planes.
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Because it doesn't imbalance the MA. There are not enough people flying it for HTC to perk it. According to HTC perking a plane has nothing to do with performance, only usage numbers.
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La7s are usually flown people who are easily outmaneuvered anyway, so they're not a problem.
It gets a bit lame when good sticks fly them all the time... but whatever floats their boat.. you just have to be better than them.
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Most people that try to fly it don't fly it very well, which makes it very easy to shoot down. Plus, there isn't that many of them flying all the time. I see a whole lot more Spitfires and F4Us lately.
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I don't know if that's the whole story, Viking. If the F4U-4 wasn't perked she's such a monster it's guaranteed that would be the only Hog you'd see, and probably the only thing you'd ever have coming off a carrier. She's most DEFINITELY perked because of performance.
IMO, the La-7's performance is generally overrated. She's fast, accelerates and climbs well under 10,000ft, but above that her performance tails off drastically. Any time I run into an La-7 above 10,000ft he's lunch unless he dives to the deck. However even under 10,000 she's not outright dominating. Late-war rides like the P-51, Tempest and F4U-4 are either a rough match for speed or not too far off. Any F4U co-E, or even if falling behind in a level chase will run her down in the zoom. She's got a lot of firepower, but IIRC the guns are generally poor ballistics.
I'm not saying she's not a good ride, but is in no way the dominating force a lot of newer players believe. She's a very beatable opponent.
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All good points but the majority of players are in the middle ranks where speed, turn rate, climb rate and firepower count allot in the abscence of superior skill. I see allot of La7's as a lower middle ranking player and feel they offer unreasonable advantages in the same way as the Tempest only more so. I certainly would not feel I had any significant advantage against the La 7 in the spit 14, 16, or Tempest, 2 out of 3 of these being perked.
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Spit 14 is my La7 killer :D MUA HA
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Originally posted by Yarbles
I see allot of La7's as a lower middle ranking player and feel they offer unreasonable advantages in the same way as the Tempest only more so.
But, as was already pointed out, these advantages are having no effect big impact on the arenas. If you look up the stats, La's (as well as Spit 16s or N1k's) are far from being dominating or destabilzing the arenas in any way.
Also you have to take into account that the extremely short legs usually confine the La's to base defence or short range furballs. You rarely see them venturing deep into enemy territory.
EDIT:
Current top K/D fighters in LW arenas:
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7865/kdqb6.jpg)
I wonder why nobody asks for the 109K-4 to be perked? ;)
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Why is the K-4 not perked?
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:lol
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Originally posted by Saxman
I don't know if that's the whole story, Viking. If the F4U-4 wasn't perked she's such a monster it's guaranteed that would be the only Hog you'd see, and probably the only thing you'd ever have coming off a carrier. She's most DEFINITELY perked because of performance.
"If the F4U-4 wasn't perked she's such a monster it's guaranteed that would be the only Hog you'd see, and probably the only thing you'd ever have coming off a carrier."
There you said it yourself. The F4U-4 is perked because her usage unperked would unbalance the arena. That is the only thing HTC considers when perking.
Whether it is performance (F4U-4) or great guns (F4U-1C) that causes the overuse is irrelevant. If you want a plane to be perked it is useless to point to performance as long as usage numbers are not unbalancing (like the thread starter did).
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Once the LAs severely disrupted the server (IMO). Not so anymore. Seems maybe after the airflow recode a lot of other planes suddenly became alot more powerful. I see far more F4us flooding the servers NOW (post-arena split) than I ever saw of LA7s before. Same for P51s and a few other planes. I think it was just the constant changing of the AH arenas and servers and airflow code, and capture rules, etc, all in a short period of time, that somehow led to the decline of the LA7 as the uber plane.
Also, I bet the spixteen has a lot to do with it, as well.
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Originally posted by Lusche
But, as was already pointed out, these advantages are having no effect big impact on the arenas. If you look up the stats, La's (as well as Spit 16s or N1k's) are far from being dominating or destabilzing the arenas in any way.
Also you have to take into account that the extremely short legs usually confine the La's to base defence or short range furballs. You rarely see them venturing deep into enemy territory.
EDIT:
Current top K/D fighters in LW arenas:
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7865/kdqb6.jpg)
I wonder why nobody asks for the 109K-4 to be perked? ;)
Herr Lusche, you are the spreadsheet/data meister. Where do you get these stats from in that particular form?
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Originally posted by VonMessa
Where do you get these stats from in that particular form?
Cut&paste from AH2 score pages, sort by K/D, abit of reformatting. A matter of 3 mins. :)
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Originally posted by Lusche
But, as was already pointed out, these advantages are having no effect big impact on the arenas. If you look up the stats, La's (as well as Spit 16s or N1k's) are far from being dominating or destabilzing the arenas in any way.
Also you have to take into account that the extremely short legs usually confine the La's to base defence or short range furballs. You rarely see them venturing deep into enemy territory.
EDIT:
Current top K/D fighters in LW arenas:
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7865/kdqb6.jpg)
I wonder why nobody asks for the 109K-4 to be perked? ;)
I wonder why the Spit 14 is perked based on this data?
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Originally posted by Yarbles
I wonder why the Spit 14 is perked based on this data?
You are not the only one ;)
BTW, the Ta152 was also perked until a year ago.
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Spit14 is perked because, if memory serves, somebody at HTC (Hitech?) commented it climbs like nothing else. It's a monster, in short. Just like the F4u4.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Spit14 is perked because, if memory serves, somebody at HTC (Hitech?) commented it climbs like nothing else.
If that is the sole reason, 109K would have to be perked too:
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3936/climbbb7.jpg)
And remember, the 109 has about double the amount of WEP at it's disposal.
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I love it when Lusche whips out his calculator.
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109 doesn't turn like the Spit 14.
109 doesn't retain E like the Spit 14.
109 doesn't handle at high speed like the Spit 14.
Spit's got more ammo.
Spit's got more gas.
She's the fire-breathing dragon Spit, dude. Just an absolute terror.
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But based on the data spit 14 isnt the killer HTC thinks it is. This is one of the reasons I would either un perk the spit or perk the LA7.
Are the Nikki figures down to Alison, I have never percieved the Nikki as massively above average.
It would be good to see more of the table and how the Spits stack up there for kill ratio and percentage of total kills.
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Originally posted by Rebel
109 doesn't turn like the Spit 14.
109 doesn't retain E like the Spit 14.
109 doesn't handle at high speed like the Spit 14.
Spit's got more ammo.
Spit's got more gas.
She's the fire-breathing dragon Spit, dude. Just an absolute terror.
Spits got more gas? Not the XIV, not by far! The K4 has more fuel, much bigger endurance, greater range. (And, as already stated before, double WEP)
Spit's got more ammo, but 65 rounds is enough when one hit kills :P
The difference in turning radius is not as great as many people think. Also the K4 can get it's flaps out earlier than the Spit XIV.
And the current Spit XIV FM has some issues. Its terribly wobbling around in pitch axis, just like the TA152.
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The XIV is crap down low where 95% of the fighting occurs, that's why I don't understand the logic. If a Spit was to be perked, it would logically be the clipped wing XVI, but it won't because it's kind to newbies.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
It would be good to see more of the table and how the Spits stack up there for kill ratio and percentage of total kills.
#20 Spit XIV K/D 1.18, 0.3% of all fighter kills
#21 Spit IX K/D 1.15, 2.9% of all fighter kills
#25 Spit XVI K/D 1.11, 7.2% of all fighter kills
#35 Spit VIII K/D 0.93, 3.6% of all fighter kills
#50 Spit V K/D 0.56, 0.5% of all fighter kills
#57 Spit I K/D 0.24, 0.1% of all fighter kills
Most kills :
#28 P51D K/D 1.05, 8.4% of all fighter kills
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Originally posted by Lusche
#20 Spit XIV K/D 1.18, 0.3% of all fighter kills
#21 Spit IX K/D 1.15, 2.9% of all fighter kills
#25 Spit XVI K/D 1.11, 7.2% of all fighter kills
#35 Spit VIII K/D 0.93, 3.6% of all fighter kills
#50 Spit V K/D 0.56, 0.5% of all fighter kills
#57 Spit I K/D 0.24, 0.1% of all fighter kills
Most kills :
#28 P51D K/D 1.05, 8.4% of all fighter kills
I wonder what the XIV's K/D would be if it weren't perked. Probably lower, don't you think?
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If it weren't perked, it would probably be flown a bit more, thus resulting in more opportunity to get better scores.
Note I said better opportunity, not necessarily better score. There's no way of knowing.
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Sad truth is, most everyone who takes up a 14 treats it like any other Spit- which is a very sad thing.
It makes baby Jesus cry, the way they fly it. :(
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Kinda like some of the people I see buzzing around in F4U-4s trying to HO and run on everything and never committing to a 1v1 even against earlier-mark F4Us. I make it a point to run them down and mercy-kill them whenever I spot them.
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I hope HTC experiments with an unperked Spit14 someday.
It behaves more like an unruly 109 at low speed and is far from the benign aircraft the rest of the Spitfires are. I doubt it would be excessively popular with the crowd.
It certainly is a monster in the right hands but so are many other free planes.
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Originally posted by Lusche
If that is the sole reason, 109K would have to be perked too:
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3936/climbbb7.jpg)
And remember, the 109 has about double the amount of WEP at it's disposal.
K4 is the new la7
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Not really, no. The 30mm has little ammunition, the ballistics suck and it has plenty of cockpit frames to lose your enemy in. It doesnt zoom climb all that well and its turning ability is average at best. The K4 is an uber climber with a gun package that will vaporize you... IF you get hit with it. It doesnt do EVERYTHING well like a spit or lala.
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Originally posted by Motherland
Not really, no. The 30mm has little ammunition, the ballistics suck and it has plenty of cockpit frames to lose your enemy in. It doesnt zoom climb all that well and its turning ability is average at best. The K4 is an uber climber with a gun package that will vaporize you... IF you get hit with it. It doesnt do EVERYTHING well like a spit or lala.
You can perk the K-4 also when it gets a decent skin.:aok
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Originally posted by Rebel
Sad truth is, most everyone who takes up a 14 treats it like any other Spit- which is a very sad thing.
It makes baby Jesus cry, the way they fly it. :(
That's the horrible, sad truth indeed. It's more of an energy fighter and it wasn't until a few years ago I realized that it was a plane that entered service and combat as early as February 1944! I always thought, back then, that the Mk.IX (being a late-mark) was a 1944 plane and the Spit14 about as 1945-ish as the 4-Hog.
Make it energy fight and it will rock!
Lusche, how should the flight axes act? I never knew that it was messed; in fact, I used to hate the Spitfire XIV for that reason.
I don't think enough people will petition enough to fix it but if they did, I'd practice flying it a lot more.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Lusche, how should the flight axes act? I never knew that it was messed; in fact, I used to hate the Spitfire XIV for that reason.
I don't think enough people will petition enough to fix it but if they did, I'd practice flying it a lot more.
Uhm, I'm rather reluctant to discuss (perceived) FM issues, or to state "something is broken, they should fix it" because I feel not qualified enough - both in RL and cartoon game FM. Especially when it comes to how it should be.
I can only say I just have the same problem with both the TA152 and the Spit XIV. Both are excessively bouncy in their pitch axis to me. This is completely unlike all other planes, and I actually have a very hard time hitting the enemy in a dogfight when flying one of these two.
(I do have also some very nasty slow speed stabilty problems with both, but in that case I truly don't know if this is wrong at all)
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It's not perked because 1/2 the player base would leave , whine , stomp . cry, fall to the ground in convulsions and be generally a baby.
LA7 = Passifier for the babies.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Uhm, I'm rather reluctant to discuss (perceived) FM issues, or to state "something is broken, they should fix it" because I feel not qualified enough - both in RL and cartoon game FM. Especially when it comes to how it should be.
I can only say I just have the same problem with both the TA152 and the Spit XIV. Both are excessively bouncy in their pitch axis to me. This is completely unlike all other planes, and I actually have a very hard time hitting the enemy in a dogfight when flying one of these two.
(I do have also some very nasty slow speed stabilty problems with both, but in that case I truly don't know if this is wrong at all)
The 152 is almost nothing like it used to be in AH1. A completely different plane.
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because there has to be a line somwhere bettween perked and unperked. If it was perked then new guys would move on to the next best plane and ask the same dry question in relation to it.:aok
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Originally posted by Viking
Whether it is performance (F4U-4) or great guns (F4U-1C) that causes the overuse is irrelevant. If you want a plane to be perked it is useless to point to performance as long as usage numbers are not unbalancing (like the thread starter did).
If this is the case, the only way you could truly determine which planes are unbalancing is to take away all perks. Then, after a month, look at the useage numbers. My guess is that the Tempest and C-Hog would have the highest useage numbers. IMHO, the P-51D, Niki, LA-7, and Spit 16 would all have higher useage numbers than the F4U4, certainly the Spit 14.
Considering a plane like the P-47N has a higher ENY than the P-51D and knowing that the useage of the P-47N pales in comparison to the useage of the P-51D, I don't think that "imbalancing of the MA" is the only criteria with which HTC perks planes. The P-47N certainly does not run the risk of unbalancing the arenas--not by a long shot.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Considering a plane like the P-47N has a higher ENY than the P-51D and knowing that the useage of the P-47N pales in comparison to the useage of the P-51D, I don't think that "imbalancing of the MA" is the only criteria with which HTC perks planes. The P-47N certainly does not run the risk of unbalancing the arenas--not by a long shot.
And it is not perked ;)
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Originally posted by Lusche
But, as was already pointed out, these advantages are having no effect big impact on the arenas. If you look up the stats, La's (as well as Spit 16s or N1k's) are far from being dominating or destabilzing the arenas in any way.
Also you have to take into account that the extremely short legs usually confine the La's to base defence or short range furballs. You rarely see them venturing deep into enemy territory.
EDIT:
Current top K/D fighters in LW arenas:
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7865/kdqb6.jpg)
I wonder why nobody asks for the 109K-4 to be perked? ;)
where did you get that
the reson why the 109k-4 isnt perked is because a it has a 30 which only about 500 people can use against fighters b it cant dive on its life 5 it is very fragle
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Originally posted by splitatom
where did you get that
http://office.microsoft.com/
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Originally posted by Krusty
If it weren't perked, it would probably be flown a bit more, thus resulting in more opportunity to get better scores.
Note I said better opportunity, not necessarily better score. There's no way of knowing.
While I agree that it would be flown a bit more, I think it would be also flown less carefully and more by unskilled pilots, and therefore reduce the K/D ratio.
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the only two planes I find threatening in unskilled hands are the n1k2 and la7. when they fly together and you have to fight both at the same time in a 190a8 your in for a rough time.
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Originally posted by Lusche
And it is not perked ;)
Sorry, just extrapolating the common nature of the ENY rating and perk points. :aok
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Originally posted by Motherland
Not really, no.
yes really, yes.
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I don't understand the big deal.:huh
Don't HO the La-7, and don't furball on the deck.:aok
Of course, arena play is mostly about furballing on the deck... for most people.
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
I don't understand the big deal.:huh
Don't HO the La-7, and don't furball on the deck.:aok
Of course, arena play is mostly about furballing on the deck... for most people.
:confused: :)
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
I don't understand the big deal.:huh
Don't HO the La-7, and don't furball on the deck.:aok
Of course, arena play is mostly about furballing on the deck... for most people.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
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I don't think you can use the K/D section of Lusche's table. When flying the "monsters" of the game the first 7 out of 10 are flown by the better sticks in the game. Those player are more skilled and tend to have better aim, and strive to stay alive.
I think you have to go by the total kills in a plane to see the usage. In this case I think when 2 planes account for 15% of all kills that its a heavily used pair of planes. The large "death count" is because most are flying for kills, and are trying to get them any way they can, which then brings up the reason people would like to see them perked. :D
But if you give a perk, even a light one to the Spit 16, and the La7, then you'll see the Spit 8 and Nik numbers climb. Perk them and it will be the La5 and the Spit 5..... and so on, and so on, and so on. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
I don't think you can use the K/D section of Lusche's table.
(...)
I think you have to go by the total kills in a plane to see the usage.
In absence of any better data, I always found the combination of kills+deaths the best indicator for actual "usage" of a plane. Of course, there are a few planes like the Ar 234 (wich often neither kills noth is being killed in a sortie) for which it doesn't work that well.
For determining the impact on the arenas, the K/D is (in my opinion) quite meaninful. Of course with a second look at the absolute kill numbers.
Originally posted by The Fugitive
When flying the "monsters" of the game the first 7 out of 10 are flown by the better sticks in the game. Those player are more skilled and tend to have better aim, and strive to stay alive.
Apart from the obvious fact that 5 of them are perked, and thus usually not available to the sub-average mass of players, there is a lot of truth in your words. A few good pilots can easily boost the K/D of planes with low usage in the arenas.
For example, only fanboys would deny the fact that the P47D-25, the Ki-61, and the FW 190A-5 are far from being the superior dominating MA fighting machines their K/D seems to imply. They are good planes, but with pilots of equal quality they should been eaten alive by all those La-7's & Spits.
But they have a small yet dedicated following that can really fly those planes to their limit.
The K/D of planes with low usage can be boosted considerably by even a single player!
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Originally posted by Yarbles
I certainly would not feel I had any significant advantage against the La 7 in the spit 14, 16, or Tempest
The Spit XVI can dominate the La-7 except in pure speed.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
I think you have to go by the total kills in a plane to see the usage. In this case I think when 2 planes account for 15% of all kills that its a heavily used pair of planes. The large "death count" is because most are flying for kills, and are trying to get them any way they can, which then brings up the reason people would like to see them perked.
The P-51 accounts for more kills than the La-7 or Spitfire Mk XVI and yet always seems to escape the screaming about how common it is.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
The Spit XVI can dominate the La-7 except in pure speed.
Yep, the La-7 is a bit outclassed as a pure dogfighter when compared to the Spit XVI.
I use the Spit XVI to defend a base, both against air attack and GVs. However, I prefer the Spit VIII overall.
My regards,
Widewing
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If the LA-7 was perked it would easily be in the top 5 of that K/D chart. The only reason it isn't there now is because there is no penalty for getting killed in one. Also, you'll note that it accounts for a greater volume of
kills 16000+
and deaths 13000+
the highest #s of any other plane on that list.
The problem I have is that too many unskilled pilots use them as a HO bird. I would say 80% of the encounters I have with LAs happen the same way. Either they HO and run or just plain run. When I come in contact with a pilot that starts manuvering an LA, I know I'm dealing with someone who might have some skill.
As a general rule, HOs are easily avoided when I see them comming and this type of pilot will most surely will fall to my guns if he sticks around for the rest of the engagement. Since there is no "value" to the LA-7 noobs will always use them to HO/run. If they die then it's no sweat to up another HO-7 and repeat until they get lucky and take you down or pick you while engaged. The only reason I see to perk the LA vs other HO birds (anything with more than two 20mm) is that the others are already perked or aren't as likely to get away with the HO by extending out of the fight (slower). I think the LA-7 issue isn't really that the plane is "uber" but the manner that it's used and the frustration that it causes. Often, when I find two opponents on my six (LA and something else), I will try to avoid the LA (sometimes to the benifit of the other plane) just because I don't want to give the LA pilot the satisfaction. I do this just because I instantly give the other pilot more credit than the LA driver and would rather reward the "better" pilot with a potential kill. With a small perk there would be tons of crying by the masses. I believe those few who fly it well won't mind the perk.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Yep, the La-7 is a bit outclassed as a pure dogfighter when compared to the Spit XVI.
I use the Spit XVI to defend a base, both against air attack and GVs. However, I prefer the Spit VIII overall.
My regards,
Widewing
I like the IX, I don't know why, it just feels right.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
I like the IX, I don't know why, it just feels right.
On those rare occasions when I am required to fly a Spit, I agree with you. The Nine is the nicest of the post-1940 bunch.
- oldman
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i dont think i have ever been killed by a hoeing lala i have killed many who try to do it
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Originally posted by LilMak
If the LA-7 was perked it would easily be in the top 5 of that K/D chart. The only reason it isn't there now is because there is no penalty for getting killed in one. Also, you'll note that it accounts for a greater volume of
kills 16000+
and deaths 13000+
the highest #s of any other plane on that list.
If you take a look at the whole year 2007, the La7 is only ranked #4 when looking at kills&deaths combined:
1. P-51D 7.7%
2. Spit XVI 7.0%
3. N1K 6.8%
4. La-7 6.8%
(Fighter kills & deaths Main Arenas, not taking into account EW&MW after introduction of split scoring in Tour 93)
Originally posted by LilMak
The problem I have is that too many unskilled pilots use them as a HO bird. I would say 80% of the encounters I have with LAs happen the same way. Either they HO and run or just plain run.
But that's not the La's fault. If you perk the La, that pilots wouldn't change their ride, not their style. tere are still a good number of almost equally fast planes, like Pony, Typhoon, Fw190D - and the latter ones inferior turning ability may encourage Ho&Run even more.
Originally posted by LilMak
I think the LA-7 issue isn't really that the plane is "uber" but the manner that it's used and the frustration that it causes.
Exactly.
Originally posted by LilMak
I will try to avoid the LA (sometimes to the benifit of the other plane) just because I don't want to give the LA pilot the satisfaction. I do this just because I instantly give the other pilot more credit than the LA driver and would rather reward the "better" pilot with a potential kill.
I think you may be worrying to much about what & why other people fly ;)
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For what it's worth here's a sampling of the kills and deaths totals data for the top 30 aircraft from 2001-2006 that I posted back in Sep 2006 just when the new arena settings came into play. This data reflects total #'s when there wasn't separate arenas for EW, MW, or LW.
(http://thetongsweb.net/412th/ahmakillpct.gif)
(http://thetongsweb.net/412th/ahmadeathpct.gif)
For a better assessment of how usage fluctuates using total kills and deaths as as proxy, I actually like looking at the % change of a given aircraft above or below it's median. The reason is that there is volatility in the swing of total kills and deaths for a given aircraft per tour.
Here are the tables for fluctuation above/below the median of particular mode for that same sample of data circa 2001-2006.
(http://thetongsweb.net/412th/ahmakillspctvol.gif)
(http://thetongsweb.net/412th/ahmadeathpctvol.gif)
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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How about taking the LA7 out of the game? I target LA7's first just because if I don't they will (95%) HO me.
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I think AH has done a remarkable job balancing perked airplanes, eny, ..ect Really, when you think about it, with their rules they have put the skill of the Pilot as #1 in importance. Even when eny forces you to jump into aircraft that are a bit lesser in performance they are still good enough to win a fight if the stick is skilled.
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Originally posted by Lusche
I wonder why nobody asks for the 109K-4 to be perked? ;)
Because we all know it's Fester. :lol
Seriously though, there has to be a lot of bad sticks upping the Dora. :confused:
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Originally posted by 33Vortex
Seriously though, there has to be a lot of bad sticks upping the Dora. :confused:
The Dora isn't very versatile. Once you corner it it has not many options to turn the table. A wonderful picker & vulcher (aka BnZ ;)), but it requires a lot of "smart" flying to be truly successful.
(Don't get me wrong, I like it and fly it a lot. It's ranked #4 in my personal "kills in" statistic)
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Originally posted by Lusche
The Dora isn't very versatile. ...it requires a lot of "smart" flying to be truly successful.
That's where most players fail miserably, regardless of what a/c they may be in. :D