Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: B@tfinkV on December 18, 2007, 08:37:03 PM
-
kill la7s, post films, tell stories.
simple formula!
My Favourite owned lala (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/mossla7.ahf)
:D
:rofl
i mean come on, this la7 was going so stella fast he climbs back up 4000ft missing one of his wings. i didnt get the kill for another 30 secodns after the end of the film
plus he was dragged down onto me out of a gangbang on my wingman lengro, so i get double points! (we both died shortly after)
:rofl
-
my story, one time i was flying around a vbase at 4k in a dora when an la7 came in at about 9k he dove strait down at me. I figured he was going over 400 when he was within 3k of me so I started a shallow dive he continued to follow me down. When I got to 2k he was 800 behind me and I stoped diving and made a small turn, WOOSH la7 goes flying by me goin 500 strait into the ground. THE END:D
-
I don't have film, but an LA overshot my fm2 once and started doing some crazy evasive maneuvers back and forth as I flew perfectly straight and I shot him at 1000 out with 2 fifty cals and took his wing off....So in effect I chased down an LA-7 in an FM-2 and won.
-
Originally posted by stodd
my story, one time i was flying around a vbase at 4k in a dora when an la7 came in at about 9k he dove strait down at me. I figured he was going over 400 when he was within 3k of me so I started a shallow dive he continued to follow me down. When I got to 2k he was 800 behind me and I stoped diving and made a small turn, WOOSH la7 goes flying by me goin 500 strait into the ground. THE END:D
nice! :lol
fm2s can kill la7s? i dont believe it!! maybe next you will tell me that 190Ds can turn left n right as well as climb and dive...myths!
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
nice! :lol
fm2s can kill la7s? i dont believe it!! maybe next you will tell me that 190Ds can turn left n right as well as climb and dive...myths!
when an LA-7 screams by you at high speed in your fm2 and slows down enough to let you catch him...I find that pretty funny.
-
When I shot down DMF in my FM2
D.M.F.
-
my fave la7 kill?
has to be the time i was doing a stuka run for laughs and found an la7 + goon mission rolling from the base below me, so i lobbed my carbomb at them :D
got 5 or 6 IIRC before the rest of them chased my poor little stuka down :(
-
Originally posted by lagger86
when an LA-7 screams by you at high speed in your fm2 and slows down enough to let you catch him...I find that pretty funny.
agreed :) i was trying to be funny myself about 190s.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
maybe next you will tell me that 190Ds can turn left n right as well as climb and dive...myths!
lol
story 2, I was flying around one time in a yakT messin around and i was trying to land because my engine was knocked and as I was comin in with my gear down my squadie tells me i have 2 la's diving on me. A second later I get the message that one of them has collided w/me and I get a kill for it (COOL i say to my self) then the second la over shoots me and I aim at him about to stall out as he is climbing infront of me I fire my only 37mm round left and get a cockpit hit at 1000 out and he falls apart. (I then crash into the fighter hanger while blacked out on runway trying to stop causing a firey explosion) THE END
-
A while back I was patrolling in my 1A not far from an enemy base, sitting in dar seeing what came up to fight.
The same guy in an La-7 upped about 3-4 times. We square off (I'm far enough out we're roughly co-alt, about 5-6k by the time he closes in) and I quickly shoot him down each time.
I'm running low on gas so start a shallow climb-out and turn for home. I see a red bar form on dar, and watch a dot slowly close in on me...
...and the icon appears as an La-7.
I hold my course and let him close to within 1500 yards, by which time we're at the edge of my dar circle about 1.5-2 sectors or so from where he lifted. I power on full, punch WEP, drop flaps, roll and kick the rudder hard into a Split-S.
As I start to drop under him he breaks to the left. I pull through the bottom and back up above him, rolling to keep him at the top of my canopy as I come over the top and right down on him for a full plane shot.
It was the same guy. He chased me 2 sectors to try and take revenge for the spanking I gave him already...only to die again. :rofl
-
No film, but right before the Arena splits, my favorite thing to do was hop in the Spit 1. I rolled one and found myself shooting down a Spit 16, Niki and La7 ACM. I rtb for fuel when I see this La7 on my 7 O' about 5k out and closing. I'm OTD at this point and start a shallow climb to give me more alt to work with, but keep my speed up.
This La7 overshoots and tries to turn with me. Kill #4 and land as the engine quits. I had the film, but lost it somehow. I also got around 50 perks for landing it.
-
double la7 kill same pilot failed revenge story!
saxman youre in the lead so far this thread! nice
-
and #2 is (crosses fingers)
-
Stodd for his turn away and make the la7 auger at 500mph story!!
-
That video is ownage in a bad way!
:aok
-
I've killed quite a few of them in Huri 1's but it's not that hard once you trick them into a turn fight.
LA7's really don't bug me anymore personally I think the Nikki is the bigger dweeb ride.
-
N1Ks may be just as bad at HOing as La-7s, but at least you can run them down when they try to bug. ;)
-
So the La-7 is the dweeb plane of AH? :D
Once I put 2 and 2 together, I flew it for my first ~10 sorties at AH so that the airplane would make up for my incompetence.
It's still nothing compared to the P38L that HT and Pyro gave us in WB 1.x :cry
-
I was in a P40-E at 10K heading to an area of a gentleman on 200 talking on 200 about his La-7..
I tell him im at 10K and to take it easy on my P40.
We merge and end up in a nice turn fight that ends up nice and low.
Killed the Uber La-7 in the under appreciated P-40E.
I hung around the near the base and I see an La-7 up.
I was in the verticle as he was climbing to me and I rolled over the top and shot him down on the way down. Same guy.
Was a nice hop
:D
Nice fight.
-
Originally posted by Anaxogoras
So the La-7 is the dweeb plane of AH? :D
Once I put 2 and 2 together, I flew it for my first ~10 sorties at AH so that the airplane would make up for my incompetence.
It's still nothing compared to the P38L that HT and Pyro gave us in WB 1.x :cry
to be honest the spitfire 16 has taken over and the la7 has been promoted to simply 'ez mode' along with anything else not held together with ductape, powered by rubber bands or armed with a double barrel slingshot :D
i love flying la7s, but i love killing them more.
-
Every time I kill pacerr. It's just comedy gold.
-
Originally posted by Stang
Every time I kill pacerr. It's just comedy gold.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
-
Isn't any LA-7 kill a favorite, no matter who it is? :rofl
-
LA's are just far too easy to get kills in. I upped one tonight and did 4 kills in 3 mins. (after I got a lil alt.) Almost had a 5th kill but I over shot him and someone else killed the guy.
I didn't even have to do any Dweeby HO's either. I bet I could easily get a 10:1 kill:death ratio, if not more by flying LA7's all the time. It's a fun plane to fly and I do fly it if a base is getting capped as in this case, but it's just way too easy to get kills in. I always feel cheap landing a bunch of kills in a LA.
Here is the Film (http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/La7-4kills.ahf)
I still think Nikis have become the new Dweeb plane, simply because 90% of the guys that fly them do nothing but HO. It seems like anytime I get into a fight where I'm out numbered, there is always some ramming Ho tard in a Nikki that slams into you trying to get the kill.
-
scissoring and reversing any la7 that dives on my 190a8 is always a favorite kill. in fact every kill in the 190a8 is a triumph. you cant outclimb, out dive or out turn or outrun anything. only thing you have in an a8 is superior firepower. sometimes thats all it takes though if you don't miss your limited firing oportunities :D
I think the difficulty in flying the la7 is very low.
sure you can get kills with it but whats the point? its not like you outflew the other guy by your superior skill. you just used a superior plane to get the advantage.
its not challenging and not at all rewarding to fly an aircraft that has no disadvantages below 10k where most MA fights occur.
and to most when there is no difficulty or challenge, boredom and loss of interest set in.
at least there is the la5fn. a good plane without any decisive advantages but a solid high performance fighter
-
Originally posted by Citabria
scissoring and reversing any la7 that dives on my 190a8 is always a favorite kill. in fact every kill in the 190a8 is a triumph. you cant outclimb, out dive or out turn or outrun anything. only thing you have in an a8 is superior firepower. sometimes thats all it takes though if you don't miss your limited firing oportunities :D
I think the difficulty in flying the la7 is very low.
sure you can get kills with it but whats the point? its not like you outflew the other guy by your superior skill. you just used a superior plane to get the advantage.
its not challenging and not at all rewarding to fly an aircraft that has no disadvantages below 10k where most MA fights occur.
and to most when there is no difficulty or challenge, boredom and loss of interest set in.
at least there is the la5fn. a good plane without any decisive advantages but a solid high performance fighter
I agree which is why I always feel cheap flying them. However if you are upping at a base that has an in coming raid.. Well it's a smart choice to fly. If I'm way out numbered I don't feel so bad.
I dunno about the LA5, IMO it isn't much diffrent than the & it just has less ammo. I actually think the LA5 flys a bit better.
-
Any Kill on a LA-7 is my favourite i cant stand that plane.
Wow i had to stop myself from going into rant mode then about it.
:aok
-
Killing Habu55 then listening to him whine on 200 is pretty funny.
-
Ooooh ooooh!
We're 5 seconds from capping a base- all of a sudden a SWARM of LA7's up just as soon as the hangar is repaired.
My poor goon never stood a chance.
Go back in an effort to reestablish cap, but my Mustang is shot to shreds within seconds.
Finally, I'm getting pissed. These guys are just gang tarding everything in site.
I grab a Spit XIV and take off, and charge after 'em, boring in, taking every shot I can. Land hits on a bunch of 'em, get a kill for one, then the final one I'm chasing- down to bb's, get a couple of good hits...then winchester.
Blinded with rage, I cut the corner, pull up under him, and flip the left wing into his tail section.
He goes down quickly, but I still have 1/2 a wing.
Float crash land for a ditch. MUA HA.
-
Back in AH1 days ... was in an La-7 myself, against another La-7, in a low speed luftberry about 50 feet off the ground in the middle of nowhere with no one else around.
We went around and around for what seemed like hours.
Stall horn in a constant buzz ... WEP screaming ... using every bit of rudder that I had to try and get an inside edge on him without stalling a wing.
Hands sweating ... heart thumpin' like mad ... who is going falter first was the game we were playing.
Finally it happened ... I see the "wobble" ... and he was forced to straighten it out else he would auger ... about 15 seconds later ... "You shot down MathMan".
Had Math been in his F6F ... the ending would have been different for sure.
Outside of that ... killing La-7s aren't really memorable ... no different than shooting down any other plane.
-
Originally posted by Adonai
Killing Habu55 then listening to him whine on 200 is pretty funny.
:lol :lol
-
My favourite was the one film I was I had, it was absolutely perfect.
I was in a 109K and had a La7 gaining steadily but not rapidly. I started a very shallow scissors so that he would gain without me losing a great deal of E.
When he closed to firing range I pulled a move I had seen in an Il2 film of all things which involves chopping throttle, full left rudder, full left aileron and full downward elevator input.
This burns speed at the drop of a hat and presents a difficult target to hit if do it just right.
Anyway, this La7 blows past on my left side, climbs and swings right.... coming across my aircraft at a high 12 O'clock position.
I firewalled the throttle and WEP'd straight up at this guy, 1 snap shot from the cannon and boom, right wing-root hit.
The La7 went from dead-six to just plain dead in 3 seconds flat.
It was the only time that the maneuver I pulled worked exactly to plan.
Another was one screen shot that got selected for the screenshot drive a while ago... I shot down a La7 in a fair fight.... nothing out of the ordinary. He obviously took offence at this and made it his business to head-hunt me without remorse.
I was busy with a N1k and he grabbed some alt... in order to come at me from above for a HO with all 3 cannons blazing.
Unable to avoid without taking damage, I sadled up for the HO.... The LaLa missed everything and took a face full off 30mm.
Nothing but a HO but it cracked me up because this guy was SO determined to get me, he even ignored a roped 262 to head-hunt me.
-
I was on one of Falcon23's NOE missions to capture a base in a VERY heavy BF-110G2 along with 12 other 110s, a couple of Nikkis and 3 Dakotas. We had just arrived at the town and 4 LA's upped and made a beeline for the busses, I was in the middle of the hoard and more fighters were upping from the base. an unexpected LA zipped by me left to right. I didn't have time to pickle my ord and didn't want to hang the C47s out to dry so I kicked a hard right rudder and WEP'd up. The LA made a hard turning pass on another 110 and went vertical. I still had alot of "E" and followed him up. as he stalled at the top of the arc I let loose with about 10 30MM rounds and cut him in half, did an unintentional hammerhead stall and lined back up on the town, let my 500kg bombs go. then had another LA overshoot me as I was climbing out and turning back to continue knocking down the town. I took the snapshot and separated the LAs right wing. Used up the rest of my ord, and landed at the base we had just taken. Had two LA kills and 10 buildings destroyed. Overall one of the best 110 sorties I've ever flown. Nothing is sweeter than killing LA-7s!
-
Some time back on OzKansas was flying between I believe 4 and 5 (it was the endless furball that inevitably forms in the NW corner of the map) in an F4U-1, before the arena split.
I'm cruising from takeoff point to the target base, while a friendly was engaged with an La-7 that I didn't see until he's just about to cross my guns at almost 90-degrees deflection. Purely out of instinct I squeezed the trigger and watched his wing pop off. I was flying perfectly straight and level, with no attempt to position for a shot. Quite literally, the La-7 flew right across my guns at haul-ass speeds an almost perpendicular to my course.
That may also have been the luckiest snapshot I ever nailed (it's a toss-up between that, and JimBeam's Tempest in an offset front-quarter merge that I managed to kick just enough inside rudder to haul the nose over to fatally rake his engine and cockpit).
-
Shooting down an LA-7 is no more satisfying to me than shooting down a Mustang or any number of other aircraft.
That said, I've been flying the LA-5 a lot this tour and it rocks. It lacks the 7's warp engines, but is plenty fast enough for most situations and climbs like a rocket. Plus its a perk-collecting dream - I've just about recovered from last month's drunken 262 debacle.
:D
-
Last favorite La 7 kill was the day before yesterday with a Mossie. I was piking some IL-2s what
attack rook gvs, shotdown 2 and then I see about 5 figthers hi ( spits + nikis), time to run away and
climb alone. But suddenly La 7 at 2.5 6 o'clock and I think no cup of tea today for this mossie dweeb,
I turn into La 7 for a HO, but the lala pilot know the hispanozookas effects and try outmaneuver
my mossie without success. Nothing special, but always fun when you kill a plane what outclimb, outaccelerate, outrun and outdive you (outroll?,outturn?).
Sorry my poor english.
-
When we had furball island (or lake if you will) I enjoyed hunting la7s in my fm2. Lots of points.
-
Originally posted by Major Biggles
my fave la7 kill?
has to be the time i was doing a stuka run for laughs and found an la7 + goon mission rolling from the base below me, so i lobbed my carbomb at them :D
got 5 or 6 IIRC before the rest of them chased my poor little stuka down :(
Dunno bout the rankning, bat -- this one's pretty good too (at least from the pizzed off dweeb standpoiint).
-
Originally posted by Rebel
Ooooh ooooh!
These guys are just gang tarding everything in site.
From another perspective they were just defending their base, and upping an LA was the fastest way they could get to the maproom before some "Dweeb" "goontard" dropped troops!
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
-
Originally posted by Simaril
Dunno bout the rankning, bat -- this one's pretty good too (at least from the pizzed off dweeb standpoiint).
agreed sim, too many good stories to keep ranking them. biggles is the past master for flying D3A or Stuka raids into furballs, we think he is bananas...and he usualy gets out the other side with a stack of stuka kills...
everyone wins for killing la7s :D
i have read them all and finding them very funny, thanks all
S!
-
Originally posted by MajIssue
From another perspective they were just defending their base, and upping an LA was the fastest way they could get to the maproom before some "Dweeb" "goontard" dropped troops!
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
True.
I take a zero for base defense tho :D
-
I was rolling a Ki84 while reading 200. Bat was talking about fair fights or something like that. As soon as gear came up, I saw this La7 close to the runway killing the guy that upped before me. I went for it even though I was slow. I avoid the HO while tracers are flying all over me, turn around and fire the lala.
System: You shot down BatFink 1
:rofl :rofl :rofl
-
I ahve shot down many an La7.................
when in my La7 (amongst others)
La7 is one sweet ride and I do enjoy getting kills in it especially bringing about the demise of various "experten" who profess to detest it so.........
However my limited skill and tendancy to do dumb stuff will put me on most folks "been there shot him down list"...............
-
nice try dedalos.. :D
i might have believed you if you hadnt accused me of HOing. i never even pass head on, let alone fire head on..
go back to lie school, get your degree in troll and try again.
-
Favorite LA7 kill?
I was in a JU88 on the TankTown map. I was about 2K from ground, and there was a lala at 5, of course he dives on me. I make him overshoot, so he comes around again, this time I was at tree top level. he blows by me, but tries to loose 'E' by ruddering back and fourth so he doesn't have to do a complete loop around again. He is about 800 in front of me. All my tail guns are out. I turned IB for the nearest mountain. The LA7 could not seem to loose enough 'E' to get behind me. He is still in front of me about 600. Right as I am about to hit the hill I yank up, the LA7 nails the hill. Guess he wanted to kill me that bad.
-
My ALL time favorite kills sesion, not just LA-7's but there was at least one of them involved....
Right after the 2006 Con when the RV-8 was still active on most maps. I took one out and headed over to this Bish base that us Knights were hitting. Got there right as all the field ack was dead and the vulch lamp came on. We were capping the field waiting on our goon to show up, about 30 miles out and inbound.
Well I got over the field and start doing tight turns and loops in my RV-8 o death. Had a spit engage me in a turn fight, he stalls at low alt, dead. LA-7 dives in from I don't know where, auger, dead. Hurri IIC comes in so I lead him on a slow speed chase over the field, through a bomber hanger where I do a loop back through the hanger and the hurri tries to follow me, hits hanger, dead. A6M5b comes out of the fighter hanger and tries to tag me, so I do the hanger loop again through a fighter hanger, he hits hanger, dead.
About that time we capture the field so I'm coming around to land my 4 proxie kills, when a Dora comes screaming in on the deck trying to kill me. I make a hard turn, get pinged in the rudder by one of his 13mm rounds so no major damage and I head for the big pad to land there. Get on the ground and start heading in between the fighter hangers when the Dora comes in on me again. He must have had target fixation and didn't see the hanger I was going behind because he hit it and I had Dora parts flying all around me.
Landed 5 kills with a huge smile on my face. That turned into hysterical laughter once 200 lit up with people complaining about how I got their proxie kills.
PERK THE RV-8!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl :aok
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
nice try dedalos.. :D
i might have believed you if you hadnt accused me of HOing. i never even pass head on, let alone fire head on..
go back to lie school, get your degree in troll and try again.
:lol
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
double la7 kill same pilot failed revenge story!
saxman youre in the lead so far this thread! nice
Actually, memory serves me and it was 4 different people.
-
I love it when u see a lala co alt, you dive quick to gain some more E and then head straight for him from below. The poor fella in the Lala then things ur doing a ho and accepts it by diving down.
The poor fella misses and mostly lost view of you after the merge.. they usually fly straight and you just smack m to peaces after a immel! :lol
-
when i used to fly the Spit 9 alot, I didn't waste ammo on 7s. just get them to follow me into a nice tight rolling horiz scissors, and wait for 'em to fall out of the sky behind me...
-
None of them are memorable but just the other night I was fighting with one in a Spit XVI (no match really). The La reversed from below coming back at up at me for what he thought would be the HO. I was inverted coming down and knew he didn't have the angle for the shot. I took the high forward deflection and raked him from nose cone to tail right across the full length of the cockpit. Poof!
-
Originally posted by SlapShot
Stall horn in a constant buzz ... WEP screaming ... using every bit of rudder that I had to try and get an inside edge on him without stalling a wing.
Slap, you shouldn't have to touch rudder in a lufbery. If you are using top rudder to offset wing-dip, you're pushing too hard. Using top rudder will tend to cross-control the plane, rolling it out of the bank angle and bleeding off E, increasing the probability of wing-dip. In short, it increases your turn radius and decreases your turn rate. Both are undesirable. ;)
One sure fire way to unwittingly increase the turn radius is to fly too deep into the stall. Backing off just a bit will improve the result. That, and staying off the rudder pedals.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Slap, you shouldn't have to touch rudder in a lufbery. If you are using top rudder to offset wing-dip, you're pushing too hard. Using top rudder will tend to cross-control the plane, rolling it out of the bank angle and bleeding off E, increasing the probability of wing-dip. In short, it increases your turn radius and decreases your turn rate. Both are undesirable. ;)
One sure fire way to unwittingly increase the turn radius is to fly too deep into the stall. Backing off just a bit will improve the result. That, and staying off the rudder pedals.
My regards,
Widewing
Dammit, do not give him any more tips.
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Using top rudder will tend to cross-control the plane, rolling it out of the bank angle and bleeding off E, increasing the probability of wing-dip. In short, it increases your turn radius and decreases your turn rate. Both are undesirable.
On the La7/5FN there is a "sweet spot" when using cross control that turns it quite rapidly. Sustaining it is not something I can do however ..........
-
thanks for the tip widewing, this is the reason why i suck at sustained flat turns, and often lose the luftberry fight. i need to practice with the old 'less is more' theory.
S!
-
Originally posted by SkyRock
That video is ownage in a bad way!
:aok
thanks mate! i was kinda proud of that kill..i think youre the only person who watched it :)
S!
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Slap, you shouldn't have to touch rudder in a lufbery. If you are using top rudder to offset wing-dip, you're pushing too hard. Using top rudder will tend to cross-control the plane, rolling it out of the bank angle and bleeding off E, increasing the probability of wing-dip. In short, it increases your turn radius and decreases your turn rate. Both are undesirable. ;)
One sure fire way to unwittingly increase the turn radius is to fly too deep into the stall. Backing off just a bit will improve the result. That, and staying off the rudder pedals.
My regards,
Widewing
Thanks for that WW ... Math must have been doing the same thing as me, cause it was dead even throught out ... until his wing dipped and he wobbled it saving the auger, but he couldn't accel quick enough to get away from the cannons.
Hey Captain VH ... :p
-
Originally posted by Mus51
I love it when u see a lala co alt, you dive quick to gain some more E and then head straight for him from below. The poor fella in the Lala then things ur doing a ho and accepts it by diving down.
The poor fella misses and mostly lost view of you after the merge.. they usually fly straight and you just smack m to peaces after a immel! :lol
So you can catch a diving lala that flies straight by doing an immel? :rofl I think a 262 would have trouble catching him after that :rofl
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Slap, you shouldn't have to touch rudder in a lufbery. If you are using top rudder to offset wing-dip, you're pushing too hard. Using top rudder will tend to cross-control the plane, rolling it out of the bank angle and bleeding off E, increasing the probability of wing-dip. In short, it increases your turn radius and decreases your turn rate. Both are undesirable. ;)
One sure fire way to unwittingly increase the turn radius is to fly too deep into the stall. Backing off just a bit will improve the result. That, and staying off the rudder pedals.
My regards,
Widewing
Very well said, Widewing. A luftberry is an unforgiving type of engagement. If you're doing things right, it looks like the guy is going to catch you, then when he gets close, you pull up and roll on him. The response is usually, "where did you get that extra E"? When in hindsight, one should be building E the whole time with minimal/no flaps, nose above horizon, and no rudder.:aok
-
My best LA 7 kill was a 2 on 1. I had no idea what the pilots names were when I dropped in.
It was within the my first year. At that time i had developed ok skills but as we all know it takes much longer than a year to really be good.
I was in a c-hog rtb to the closest base. Came across a low la7 and a co alt la7. I dove on the low la7 and made one hell of a d600 shot. To my surprise the driver of that la7 was SHANE. While i was on the deck the other La7 dove on me and with a quick reversal and a short burst in my amazement pop goes that la7.. That driver was Morpheus! Well 200 was on fire after those two kills. God i got called a newb no skilled bla bla for a good 30mins.
I think that was one of those fights that got me hooked to the game...
-
:lol
double super troll kill!
FX1 takes first place :D
-
My Favorite La-7 kill.
I was flying a P47-D40 and spotted an LA about 4k below me. I dropped on him and he pulled straight up into me. (as expected)We both missed the HO shot then I proceeded to out turn him through 3 or so more merges untill I killed him from 6 high. What made it my favorite was an La-7 pilot whinning over 200 about Hobags. The irony! O the IRONY!