Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: toonces3 on December 19, 2007, 12:41:44 AM
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I've been sorta bored with the game lately, so I've been trying to give every plane in the planeset a chance. Last night (tonight as I write this) I took up the A-20. Having seen Snaphook fly this beast in fighter mode, I know it can be done. But, I didn't have even a fraction of the success!
I also saw some dude named Cobia spank me and a handful of others in mid-war one night.
I'm trying to figure out how to be effective in it. I realize it's not a typical fighter- there's alot of mass on that plane. I noticed that it has great diving and zoom climb potential. A few times I pointed my nose at a plane I wanted to get to, and the plane will move very quickly downhill to it. However, on blowing a pass, I don't see what a good follow up move is. Defensively it seems to be a difficult plane to do much in.
I had a P-51 come in about 2-3k above me, and he ate my lunch in short order.
Just looking for some tips. Obviously this isn't going to be the uber-fighter, and I expect to lose alot of fights, but I wouldn't mind landing a few scalps too. I got two last night, but they were, unfortunately, blatent HO's I'm ashamed to admit.
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Rule #1- Never attack a Hog
Rule #2- See rule #1
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It can be done, but it's generally going to boil down to:
A) How good is the pilot in the A-20
B) How bad are the targets ;)
Oh, and zmeg pretty much covers it. :D
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Pfft, I was on my twisty stick, and had a belly full of 500 lb'ers. I 'almost' had you!
LOL. That was a pretty quick fight though, huh?
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I fly it "light", no ords and 50% fuel....so if your lugging presents and fuel its even tougher to figure out. Start with 50% or even 25% if the action is close by....
Optimum alt for the A-20 is in the 12k range. I almost never get higher then 15k. The Havoc is a bit contrarian to fly in that your matching up more to what the other guy does then what the A-20 can do. It actually likes a climbing rolling scissors type fight best and alot of what you see is some form of climbing reverse. The A-20 is on rails thru most of its flight envelope so its very stable, forgiving and using WW's term "smooth".
It responds very well to fundemental BFM/ACM and needs to be flown on the "X" (semi verticals) get the thing flat and it dies quickly. It's got great rudder control and handles low speed high AoA conditions as well as anything in the game...and its got a sawzall in the nose.
BTW...dont attack a hog:D
Actually what makes a good hog driver tough is he knows his plane well. It takes time effort and understanding to make a hog sing so its tougher competition. Now if you have alt & E on the hog or any plane you can make life tough on them if they try and engage from the disadvantage.
I wrote up a blurb on the A-20 from my perspective. It's far from perfect but it might help you a bit...A-20 (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/A-20.pdf)
There are a bunch of films there in the same directly as well. If you read the blurb and look at a film or two hopefully it makes some sense.
Anytime your up if you see me on the roster feel free to hitch a ride or two.
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toonces3
Next time your in the MA's look for "LTARhavc", PM him and see if he'll go to the DA or TA with you. You want to learn A-20 tactics, he's your man, and what's more.......he loves to share his skills (teach).
Used to be with the Rooks 2 or 3 years ago known as "Fiend".
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I just spent the last hour going through some of those films.
I see what you mean about flying the X. You really keep the plane moving vertically every time you turn. One of the other things I noticed is that you're not always grabbing speed- interesting how slow you get those fights. Finally, I noticed that one of your favorite moves is to take the plane straight up and get down to stall speeds or less- sorta hang. Other planes have trouble following that move (but still try) and then you use rudder authority to control the 'fall' so that you end up in a position of advantage.
Good stuff. I'm not really in the league where I need to handicap myself with the A-20 to have 'fun' fights, but I might try spending more time in it as an attack bird and then mix it up off target.
Thanks Snaphook.
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The A-20 is a good plane to learn fundementals on. You can build a solid understanding of ACM that is easily transferable. The "low speed" verticals your looking at are the "high AoA" stuff you'll hear brought up at times. As speed decreases and a plane is held at the edge of a stall control surface authority and the inherant stability of the wing are tested. If the outer edge of the wing stalls 1st then you have a "tip stall". This potentially sudden departure requires alot of feel and control input to control. If the wing initially stalls closer to the fuselage the control surfaces on the wing have airflow as the wing stalls. The other variable is the amount of force the rudder and elevators can exert. The better rudder authority the better the plane can be controlled at unusual attitudes. The A-20 is one of the best planes in the game in this regard....far superior to the mossie and better IMO then even the 38...
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Having flown a few more sorties in it-
What's the best attack profile to fly? So far, the majority of my deaths are from ripping parts off the plane during a dive or pullout. The plane just accelerates so darn quickly downhill that the time to aim is quite short.
Last night I was experimenting with this:
I fly to a vehicle base at about 10k, 200 IAS. Carrying wing and internal bombs. Select wing bombs, salvo 4. I try to pick out a target between the wing and nose, then go idle and up to burn off speed, then do a roll left inverted, put nose on target, then roll upright and drop.
I've been dropping at 6-7k or so, just as the target goes under the nose (and missing long every drop). Done properly, I get creaking on the dive but can do a slow pull out, keep all my parts, be moving 300+ IAS, and be too high for ack hits.
But, like I said, I'm not hitting anything. It's the speed more than anything that's getting me killed. I'm wondering if I need to come in lower or slower or what. Also, what is the aim point for a dive bomb attack.
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Not to hijack or anything but I tried the A20 in attack mode last camp and plan to give it another go this camp. How do you know when the wing ords are selected vs. the internal ords?
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I don't care what your in ... in a 1 v 1 against Cobia when he is in an A-20, you had better bring your "A+ game" ... else you will feel the wrath of the "sawsall".
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Not to hijack or anything but I tried the A20 in attack mode last camp and plan to give it another go this camp. How do you know when the wing ords are selected vs. the internal ords?
Bomb bay is always first bomb selection.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Having flown a few more sorties in it-
I've been dropping at 6-7k or so, just as the target goes under the nose (and missing long every drop). Done properly, I get creaking on the dive but can do a slow pull out, keep all my parts, be moving 300+ IAS, and be too high for ack hits.
But, like I said, I'm not hitting anything. It's the speed more than anything that's getting me killed. I'm wondering if I need to come in lower or slower or what. Also, what is the aim point for a dive bomb attack.
I don't fly the A-20 much but I do fly the Mosquito a lot.
When I dive bomb I let bombs go at D600 - D400. You don't miss that way.
I would suggest coming in at about 3K and fly straight over target and split S on top of them. You also need to start much slower.
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No question that Cobia (and WW) are the "gold standard" for A-20 drivers...
Throttle/speed control is really the steepest part of the learning curve. Just like a spit or a hog its easy to get it going too fast in a fight.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Not to hijack or anything but I tried the A20 in attack mode last camp and plan to give it another go this camp. How do you know when the wing ords are selected vs. the internal ords?
The first thing I do when I spawn on the runway is hit backspace once. Then I know that my wings are selected for the first run. Also, I don't have to try to remember 20 minutes into my flight if I selected my wings or not.
I wouldn't mind a few more tips on dive bombing in it. The A-20 is too big and too slow to go plowing over a field at 3k. Flak will eat me alive.
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11k alt, zero throttle 60 deg dive angle... drop at 8,500 or so and pull up smoothly with no gas till you level...
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I know I had fun shooting you down the other day. You kept coming back for more and were always quick with the
. We had some good duels other than I was upping anti-GV aircraft. Good sport and good fights, Thanks. I'll keep my eyes open for the odd A20.
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toonaces, if you ever want to wing up just yell. the only solution to the '' ripping parts off in a dive'' situation, is experiance with the ride. i been flying A-20 as primary ride for over 3 years 99.9% of the time as fighter sweeps and have learned the ''breaking point'' very well. for one thing it is NOT consistant with every altitude, the more alt the more speed it will take to start rippping parts off. rolling scissors are the havocs best friend and if you find yourself low and slow in the trees scissors allso work well too.
you really cant compare A-20 with other rides because it is its own egg. it has quallities of most and only a few drawbacks. if you capitalize on its specialtys and avoid the faults then you will do good in it.
i posted a few film clips with the trail option anabled it really highlites the fights IMO
the first 2 are two seperat fights with a20 vs f6f
the 3rd is a la5 vs a20
and the 4,5th and 6 are the same fight but since my fraps is limited to 30 seconds i had to split it up
its a20 vs 2 spit14,s both had alt and E advantage
f6f vs a20 round 1
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-f6fround1.flv
f6f vs a20 round 2
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-f6fround2.flv
la5 vs a20
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-la5.flv
spit 14 x2 vs a20
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=spit14x2vsa20pt1.flv
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=spit14x2vsa20pt2.flv
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=spit14x2vsa20pt3.flv
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=spit14x2vsa20pt4.flv
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Hmmmm ... those F6F fights look familiar ... :mad:
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Thanks for all the inputs guys.
Cobia, I still remember that night in Mid-war. Damn that was one of the most frustrating nights I've ever had. I just couldn't get up and on your A-20 and died so many times in the process of trying.
I've been experimenting some more in the MA. I haven't been flying in pure dogfight mode, no point in that, but using it as an attack A/C and then shooting at enemy planes when I have to. That nose gun is devastating to enemy planes.
I haven't really improved much 1v1, but I've found some success when I'm above cons on the deck. I don't think alot of folks perceive the A-20 as a threat and if I can engage from a position of advantage I can get snapshot kills pretty quick. I've also noticed that the A-20 can soak up a ton of 50 cal without going down.
The only thing that's really bumming me out is that the attack perks go to bomber than fighter. I have no use for bomber perks.
I haven't really explored the attack side of AH too much and I'm enjoying the learning curve so far.
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I haven't had a chance to check the tapes, but I'll post again after I look at them.
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A-20 is a great platform for learning E fighting IMO. Usually with 50% fuel loaded your down to under 25% by the time you begin to mix it up. As Copia shows its much more capable then folks give it credit for and as your finding out the "sawzall" does saw em all pretty well...:aok
BTW Cobia I'l be happy to host any films for you anytime sir...
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Hey guys,
I ordered this book from amazon.com the other day:
http://www.amazon.com/Wreaking-Havoc-20-University-Military/dp/1585442895/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
If you think you'd be interested in it, but want to know if it's any good, let me know and I'll post a bit about it after I read it.
I'm having alot of fun in the A-20. I'm dying alot, but I've gotten a few compliments on 200, which is almost as good as getting a kill!