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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on December 19, 2007, 04:14:39 PM

Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Ripsnort on December 19, 2007, 04:14:39 PM
Heh, well, I remember a few on this board slamming the ol' US of A. ;)

Quote
One would think that countries that committed to the Kyoto treaty are doing a better job of curtailing carbon emissions. One would also think that the United States, the only country that does not even intend to ratify, keeps on emitting carbon dioxide at growth levels much higher than those who signed.

And one would be wrong.

The Kyoto treaty was agreed upon in late 1997 and countries started signing and ratifying it in 1998. A list of countries and their carbon dioxide emissions due to consumption of fossil fuels is available from the U.S. government. If we look at that data and compare 2004 (latest year for which data is available) to 1997 (last year before the Kyoto treaty was signed), we find the following.

* Emissions worldwide increased 18.0%.
* Emissions from countries that signed the treaty increased 21.1%.
* Emissions from non-signers increased 10.0%.
* Emissions from the U.S. increased 6.6%.

In fact, emissions from the U.S. grew slower than those of over 75% of the countries that signed Kyoto....


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/12/kyoto_schmyoto.html

Oh, and you can verify the numbers here:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/comparative_international_statistics/climate_environment/
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Holden McGroin on December 19, 2007, 04:51:25 PM
That cannot be possible.  The USA is responsible for all that is bad in the world.

Both your links are obviously paid off by Exxon/Mobile
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Tac on December 19, 2007, 05:40:19 PM
i believe the point of the kyoto treaty was to control and reduce based on each country's development.

numbers can mean anything really.. looking at that chart I see that the developing nations that signed the treaty increased emissions while the US did too. clumping a whole lot of countries together into a 21% and comparing it to a 6% of the US only shows the US, as 1 country, still increased its output by about 1/3rd of the total amount of all other nations clumped together.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: LePaul on December 19, 2007, 06:11:56 PM
The big point of Kyoto that is a joke is this:  India and China, the bigger polluters, are exempt.  Kyoto is simply a big-pile of how the USA is the source of all their woes.  

We can cut our emissions without their help.  We sent rovers to Mars, men to the moon....our ingenuity will sort it out, without this political farce.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 19, 2007, 06:28:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
The big point of Kyoto that is a joke is this:  India and China, the bigger polluters, are exempt.


From the same source Ripsnort posted:

Million Metric Tons of Carbon Dioxide

World Total    28,192.74
--------------------------
United States 5,956.98
China 5,322.69
Russia 1,696.00
Japan 1,230.36
India 1,165.72
Germany  844.17
Canada  631.26
United Kingdom  577.17
Korea, South  499.63
Italy          466.64
Iran          450.68
France            415.27
Saudi Arabia  412.35
Australia  406.64
Mexico          398.25
Spain          387.11
Brazil          360.57
Indonesia  359.47

Source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: ROC on December 19, 2007, 07:01:42 PM
Interesting.

This guy right here (http://digg.com/environment/Beef_and_Climate_Change_2_2lbs_of_Beef_Equals_Three_Hours_of_Driving?t=8043790)  is debunking the myth that a single volcano produces more CO2 than all the cars we drive.

Now, he quotes some good sources, and has a great argument, actually going on to prove that we produce 12 times more gas than a single volcano.  Pretty proud of his efforts, except that he shoots his argument in the foot.

There are between 50 and 70 eruptions annually.

Not counting those that occur under the ocean.

People thinking we have any control over the environment are delusional.  What we Do have is control over how we overcome the adverse environmental conditions, and being as cold as it is back east, I'm betting they wish the oil spigot was turned up a notch.

We have more forested areas in the continental US than at the time of Columbus.  Why?  Managed Forests.  They used to run rampant, now they are controlled.  We traded a natural emission for a man made and Productive emission that powers our nation.  Fair trade, equal output of gasses.

Think it through people, snow job occuring and our socialist leaders are not only buying into it but are driving it.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: john9001 on December 19, 2007, 07:14:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
From the same source Ripsnort posted:

Million Metric Tons of Carbon Dioxide

World Total    28,192.74
--------------------------
United States 5,956.98
China 5,322.69
Russia 1,696.00
Japan 1,230.36
India 1,165.72
Germany  844.17
Canada  631.26
United Kingdom  577.17
Korea, South  499.63
Italy          466.64
Iran          450.68
France            415.27
Saudi Arabia  412.35
Australia  406.64
Mexico          398.25
Spain          387.11
Brazil          360.57
Indonesia  359.47

Source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls [/B]


how do they measure that? Is it a estimate, a computer model, a guess?

that's pretty accurate, 5,956.98, are they sure it's not . 96 or .99?
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 19, 2007, 07:47:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
how do they measure that? Is it a estimate, a computer model, a guess?
probably estimate based on consumption of fossil fuels with some adjustment for efficiency of technologies used, country env. regs, etc...

Quote
Originally posted by john9001
that's pretty accurate, 5,956.98, are they sure it's not . 96 or .99?
The numbers are in millions, so 5,956.98 is actually 5,956,980.00.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 19, 2007, 07:56:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ROC
Pretty proud of his efforts, except that he shoots his argument in the foot.
He did use "Average amount of CO2 released by volcanoes/year: 110 million tons.". (Note volcanoes/year)
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Gunslinger on December 19, 2007, 08:03:59 PM
lets not forget to mention all the european countrys that signed the treaty and failed in their goals. They actually have to pay a fine in the billions of dollars.  Kyoto is a sham nothing more!

It's environmental impact is minimal were as it's economic impact is huge!
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 19, 2007, 08:31:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
They actually have to pay a fine in the billions of dollars.
Who's collecting the money?
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Arlo on December 19, 2007, 08:35:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
how do they measure that? Is it a estimate, a computer model, a guess?

that's pretty accurate, 5,956.98, are they sure it's not . 96 or .99?


I might suggest finding a .... ummm ... better source than your skepticism to challenge it. Just a suggestion. Makes a really better argument. :D
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Gunslinger on December 19, 2007, 08:36:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 2bighorn
Who's collecting the money?


honestly i'm not sure

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS252US253&q=kyoto+fines
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: 2bighorn on December 19, 2007, 08:56:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
honestly i'm not sure


Quote
where the enforcement branch has determined that the emissions of a Party have exceeded its assigned amount, it must declare that that Party is in non-compliance and require the Party to make up the difference between its emissions and its assigned amount during the second commitment period, plus an additional deduction of 30%.  In addition, it shall require the Party to submit a compliance action plan and suspend the eligibility of the Party to make transfers under emissions trading until the Party is reinstated.


http://unfccc.int/kyoto_protocol/compliance/introduction/items/3024.php
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Gunslinger on December 19, 2007, 09:36:21 PM
even more proof that I think Kyoto is the worlds biggest environmental scam.

Short of that the second biggest would be recylcing as a whole.  (note:  certain materials are the exception Aluminum, paper, copper, ect)
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: AKIron on December 19, 2007, 09:38:34 PM
I stayed over one night in Kyoto in '86. Seemed they were creating as much c02 as everyone else.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Vulcan on December 19, 2007, 10:20:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
even more proof that I think Kyoto is the worlds biggest environmental scam.

Short of that the second biggest would be recylcing as a whole.  (note:  certain materials are the exception Aluminum, paper, copper, ect)


Its worse, because the Green Party is part of our government (helping another left wing part to majority) they're talking about carbon credit/taxes (NZ has signed up to kyoto).

Yet NZ contributes a whole 0.001341488% to global man made carbon emmisions.

Its just another tax scam as well as keeping certain politicians and government employees in jobs.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Fishu on December 19, 2007, 11:33:06 PM
Great, the USA's emissions didn't grow that much, but per capita americans are polluting twice more than a few selected countries.


Carbon dioxide emissions per county (1/1000th metric tons):
United States 6,049,435
China 5,010,170
Japan 1,257,963
Germany 808,767
Canada 639,403
United Kingdom 587,261
France 373,693

Carbon dioxide emissions per capita (1/1 metric tons):
United States 20.224
Canada 20.158
Germany 9.811
United Kingdom 9.716
Japan 9.873
France 6.161
China 3.835


Being that much ahead per capita doesn't give much reason to be proud. At least canadians have an excuse in the cold weather.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: AKIron on December 19, 2007, 11:35:02 PM
Breath in, breath out. There you go, "polluting".

Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
Great, the USA's emissions didn't grow that much, but per capita americans are polluting twice more than a few selected countries.


Carbon dioxide emissions per county (1/1000th metric tons):
United States 6,049,435
China 5,010,170
Japan 1,257,963
Germany 808,767
Canada 639,403
United Kingdom 587,261
France 373,693

Carbon dioxide emissions per capita (1/1 metric tons):
United States 20.224
Canada 20.158
Germany 9.811
United Kingdom 9.716
Japan 9.873
France 6.161
China 3.835


Being that much ahead per capita doesn't give much reason to be proud.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: LEADPIG on December 20, 2007, 01:01:49 AM
There's nothing wrong with slamming the U.S.A.

You love your children but do you go along with everything they do or say?

Those that don't slam the U.S. at times are either:

1. blind

2. ignorant

3. deaf

4. Republican

5. Rich

6. Fat dumb and happy

7. Scared

8. easily intimidated

9. Poosies

Clearly America's a wonderful lady doesn't mean she doesn't need a spanking every now and then.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: cpxxx on December 20, 2007, 04:44:47 AM
Kyoto was a nonsense as is the latest Bali thing. The reality is that most countries and have failed and will fail to meet their committments. They know this but it's all about appearing to be doing something.

The US wouldn't play the game because they knew that if they tried to reduce emissions as demanded it would damage the economy severely. That still remains true. All the other governments knew this too but went along with the charade.  Big conferences like those develop a momentum of their own and everyone gets caught up in the atmoshere. Reality strikes, of course as soon as they go home.

Governments are very cynical and have no consciense so they always do what's best for them in the very short term.

This is all very ironic for people like me who unbelievers about all this global warming schtick.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: Excel1 on December 20, 2007, 04:54:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Its worse, because the Green Party is part of our government (helping another left wing part to majority) they're talking about carbon credit/taxes (NZ has signed up to kyoto).

Yet NZ contributes a whole 0.001341488% to global man made carbon emmisions.

Its just another tax scam as well as keeping certain politicians and government employees in jobs.


yeah, it's pathetic, a sick joke, and it's going to be one hell of a burden on our economy. but apparently that’s the price little nz is going to have to pay for saving the world <puke>

a good deal of those extra taxes we will pay will be penalties for not meeting kyoto emission targets, and even worse they will end up lining the pockets of the creators of this crap- europeans. **** them. they don’t give a watermelon about nz and never have, so i'm at a loss as to why we hook our wagon up to every lame turkey they come up with, to the detriment of nz.

there's no light at the end of the tunnel on this con either. it's a sodding disease. it's been embraced by most of the political spectrum in nz, it's not just the government manipulating it for their own purposes.

instead of discrediting and attacking the obvious and utter corruption of it the piss poor excuse for an opposition party are scared that they will loose the votes of the brainwashed sheeple at the next election so they are keeping their mouths shut out of self interest... they badly need to grow a pair. and just in case i'm wrong and they really are clueless they should be told that the emperor has no sodding clothes on you dumb chits.
Title: How's the Kyoto treaty thing going?
Post by: lazs2 on December 20, 2007, 08:11:10 AM
shouldn't the figures be adjusted for both population and gross national product too?

Not that it matters.. the US should get all the money they fined all the other countries because we are putting valuable co2 into the air which has increased crop production worldwide 15%.

lazs