Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bobtom on December 20, 2007, 04:16:29 PM
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ok we have a Tiger I right? It is Hard To kill right?? The problem with it is that its perk is set around 32!
I think HTC should put the perk up.
Also I think we need the Tiger II which is even better then the Tiger I and should be perked even more. :aok
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Originally posted by bobtom
ok we have a Tiger I right? It is Hard To kill right?? The problem with it is that its perk is set around 32!
I think HTC should put the perk up.
You are new, aren't you? ;)
Until about 7 months ago, the Tiger perks actually were up - it did cost 50 perks then. But the Tiger was almost almost invincible in tank combat, unless you could get a flank shot on it. The arrival of the Sherman Firefly chnaged that drastically, thus the reduction.
(Currently the Tiger has an overall K/D of 3.4, it used to be well over 6.0 before the Firefly showed up)
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If we get the Tiger II (PzKw VIB Königstiger) then we'd need to balance it with the IS-2. Now I wouldn't mind that, but it's like opening a can of worms in terms of "they got that so we want this" debating. Now I wouldn't mind a T-34-85 added to the bunch. It's seems like the logical next step, more so than a Königstiger anyway no matter how much I love it. :D
Something I'd like to see is Panzerjägers, or tank destroyers, introduced. Like the Su-85, Su-100, Hetzer, PzJ IV, Jagdpanther, Jagdtiger. Guess that's another can of worms right there. :D
There's so much to wish for. The game is a great platform with room for so many improvements.
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Originally posted by Lusche
(Currently the Tiger has an overall K/D of 3.4, it used to be well over 6.0 before the Firefly showed up)
And the Firefly has a good gun yes... but it's still a Sherman. Excuse me but... :rofl
:)
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Originally posted by Lusche
You are new, aren't you? ;)
Until about 7 months ago, the Tiger perks actually were up - it did cost 50 perks then. But the Tiger was almost almost invincible in tank combat, unless you could get a flank shot on it. The arrival of the Sherman Firefly chnaged that drastically, thus the reduction.
(Currently the Tiger has an overall K/D of 3.4, it used to be well over 6.0 before the Firefly showed up)
When i came the Firefly was just starting development and i guess i never checked the perk points for the Tiger....
Bobtom
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Originally posted by 33Vortex
And the Firefly has a good gun yes... but it's still a Sherman. Excuse me but... :rofl
:)
:lol :rofl :lol :rofl lol:lol :rofl :lol
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Originally posted by 33Vortex
And the Firefly has a good gun yes... but it's still a Sherman. Excuse me but... :rofl
Well, for being only a Sherman it's doing quite well:
Tiger K/D vs.:
T-34....................24.57
Panzer IV...............5.33
Sherman Firefly.......1.28
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It's the first shot factoring in. If the Tiger fire first and hit, you're still as dead as a T-34. However if you sneak up on a Tiger that killed you in your previous sortie, chance is good you'll get him.
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Tigers are pretty worthless now...IMHO.
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If you think about it, and realise that the strength of the Tiger is not it's "invincible armour" or the 88Kwk, instead it was in it's employment. Successful Heavy Panzer Battalions that employed them used other Tigers in support, and they tried as best as they could to use the Tiger's main advantage, range.
When the Tiger appeared on the battlefield, it was indeed a phenomenal tank, but not because it was invincible. It was because the enemies did not have a comparable tank. That is why the development of the Russian T-34-85, the IS-1, and the SU-100 + 152 arrived. They were there to combat heavy tanks.
In the end, the Tiger's did well because their crews were well trained. But, shear numbers, lack of supplies, and parts doomed them.
I think the Tiger is about as good as it should be in this game.
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Originally posted by 33Vortex
If we get the Tiger II (PzKw VIB Königstiger) then we'd need to balance it with the IS-2.
Since all vehicles are allowed by all sides, why would we have to "balance" anything? It would balance itself.
I would much prefer a larger selection of "lesser tanks" before any more perked rides.
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I've seen the Tiger II up close at Fort Knox's Patton Museum. The armor is immensely thick. Not only that, it dwarfs the Sherman and Panther nearby.
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Originally posted by bobtom
ok we have a Tiger I right? It is Hard To kill right??
No it's easy to kill not.An M4 can kill a tiger in 1 shot and most people in a panzer can kill a tiger with 1 or 2 shots.And even now a T-34 with the HVAP shell can at least pop a tigers turret if it is close enough.
I would like to see more american tanks,British tanks, and even some japanese tank.And even some more russian tank.And their was a austria tank.
Just my 0.2cents.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
most people in a panzer can kill a tiger with 1 or 2 shots.
"most" people can't.
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well....."Most" good people can.You get my drift.
NO MORE GERMAN TANKS
:noid :noid :noid
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No more tanks ... period. Preferably remove the ones we have as well! :aok
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It would be great to see this tank as the next in the gv line-up. The T-34-85 would be a lot of fun to drive and would finally be able to face the Sherman and Tiger on a more equal footing.
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How about a normal Sherman with the original 75mm gun so we have some cannon fodder?
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tank destroyers would be good, light armor, high speed, big guns.
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The problem with tanks as opposed to fighters is that armor penetration of earlier guns simply cannot deal with later tanks. A .303 can still damage an Me262, Tempest or F4U-4, but the main gun on a Panzer III or Type 97 Chi-Ha is about as usefull as Polish lances against a Tiger or T-34's armor.
Because of this, we will never have a mix of GVs on the ground like we have aircraft in the skies. Our best hope is to get a bevy of the most comparable tanks and hope for some kind of split like the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7 and N1K2-J seem to have achieved. Maybe for tanks that could be Panzer IV H, T-34/85 and a Jumbo Sherman.
You will never get that guy who is good and like to show off by taking his Panzer III or Type 97 Chi-Ha out to fight those as unlike aircraft the newer "dweeb" tanks would simply be immune to him, not just needed better tactics to deal with. There will be no P-40 or C.202 in the tank world.
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Actually the 50 mm gun of the Panzer III is fully capable of penetrating the side and rear armour of late war tanks. The Tiger is itself a mid-war tank as it entered service in 1942.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
No it's easy to kill not.An M4 can kill a tiger in 1 shot and most people in a panzer can kill a tiger with 1 or 2 shots.And even now a T-34 with the HVAP shell can at least pop a tigers turret if it is close enough.
I would like to see more american tanks,British tanks, and even some japanese tank.And even some more russian tank.And their was a austria tank.
Just my 0.2cents.
Just to add my two cents into the conversation. Vanscrew you really need to do more reading on armored warfare. The HVAP (High Velocity Armor Projectile) does not pop turrets. In all actuality it is the HE round (High Explosive) that traditionally pops the turret off of armored vehicles. The high velocity kinetic energy rounds just normally pass through the armor plate and create a spall effect inside the vehicle.
Do some research.:aok
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Yes ssDruid, but the hot metal ricocheting around inside the turret usually sets of the ammunition stored there.
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Originally posted by Lusche
You are new, aren't you? ;)
Until about 7 months ago, the Tiger perks actually were up - it did cost 50 perks then. But the Tiger was almost almost invincible in tank combat, unless you could get a flank shot on it. The arrival of the Sherman Firefly chnaged that drastically, thus the reduction.
(Currently the Tiger has an overall K/D of 3.4, it used to be well over 6.0 before the Firefly showed up)
before the sherman many people had to get fighters to target them with bombs and that was all they could do exept at point blank range i rememberpeople landing 10-15 kills every hour at tank town
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i remember before they perked the sherman everyone used it at tank town and every where and then all of a suden all the tiger disapered
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There should be something for GVs akin to the 262 for planes, perked equaly.
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I think a tank destroyer would be fun to have. I wouldn't go with anything as powerfull as a Jagtiger or anything like that , but something like a Jagdpanzer IV with either the L-48 or if you really want to put a good gun on it the L-70. This would give you better armor protection then the panzer IV with a lower profile (could probably hide behind small hills in this game), but would have the combat limitations of no turret. They would be best used in defensive rolls, such as ambush and base defence. As far as perk value, I don't think the L-48 version should be perked but maybe a light perk on an L-70 version.
Just a thought
Pat Kunz
BigRat
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oh jes
im for this baby........
(http://i2.tinypic.com/ouqfsp.jpg)
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Originally posted by ssDruid
Just to add my two cents into the conversation. Vanscrew you really need to do more reading on armored warfare. The HVAP (High Velocity Armor Projectile) does not pop turrets. In all actuality it is the HE round (High Explosive) that traditionally pops the turret off of armored vehicles. The high velocity kinetic energy rounds just normally pass through the armor plate and create a spall effect inside the vehicle.
Do some research.:aok
Actually the big explosion was generally the interior ammo igniting. HE rounds generally could not penatrate heavy armored vehicals.
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I think he might be confusing HEAT with regular HE.
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Originally posted by ssDruid
Just to add my two cents into the conversation. Vanscrew you really need to do more reading on armored warfare. The HVAP (High Velocity Armor Projectile) does not pop turrets. In all actuality it is the HE round (High Explosive) that traditionally pops the turret off of armored vehicles. The high velocity kinetic energy rounds just normally pass through the armor plate and create a spall effect inside the vehicle.
Do some research.:aok
in the game it dose. Close range a Tiger camping a hanger i popped up in a T-34 and shot him in the turret(left side) and i smoked it. And the HE in the game tracks people most of the time. If you get a butt shot with a HE round you may kill him.
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:p
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks-heavy/maus/maus_03.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks-heavy/pzkpfw-vi-b/pzkpfw_vi_b_26.jpg)
:aok
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/flak-panzers/wirbelwind/wirbelwind_01.jpg)
(http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/tanks-medium/pzkpfw-v/pzkpfw_v_g_02.jpg)
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i dont see the pictures.
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I heard HVAP was lighter than the AP,therefore less powerful. But the AP is heavier and more lethal.
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Lighter but faster, initialy.
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Originally posted by Karnak
but the main gun on a Panzer III or Type 97 Chi-Ha is about as usefull as Polish lances against a Tiger or T-34's armor.
When did this happen? It is a common myth. I'll never understand why this keeps being mentioned.
But speaking of Polish Cavalry charges in WWII, they were almost all a success.
1. September 1 - Battle of Mokra - 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment took by surprise the elements of German 4th Panzer Division, which retreated in panic. During the charge, lances were used.
2. September 1 - Battle of Janów - 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment on a recce mission encountered a similar unit of German cavalry. Lieut. Kossakowski ordered a cavalry charge, but the enemy did not accept battle and after a short clash withdrew towards their positions.
3. September 2 - Battle of Borowa Góra - 1st squadron of the 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment encountered a squadron of German cavalry in the village of Borowa. A charge was ordered, but the Germans withdrew.
4. September 11 - Osuchowo - 1st squadron of the 20th Uhlan Regiment charged through the German infantry lines to avoid encirclement, and broke through. There were negligible losses on both sides.
5. September 12 - Kałuszyn - 4th squadron of the 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment charged overnight at the German positions in the town of Kałuszyn. Although the charge was a mistake (the Polish infantry commander issued a wrong order which was understood as a charge order while the cavalry was meant to simply move forward), it was a success. After heavy casualties on both sides, the town was retaken in the early morning.
6. September 13 - Mińsk Mazowiecki - 1st squadron of the 2nd Grochów Uhlan Regiment charged German infantry positions, but was repelled by German MG and artillery fire.
7. September 13 - Maliszewo - 1st squadron of the 27th Uhlan Regiment was engaged in heavy fighting near the village of Maliszewo. After the Germans were beaten and started to retreat towards the village, the Poles charged and took the village along with a large number of German prisoners.
8. September 15 - Brochów - elements of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the German positions to frighten the enemy infantry. Shortly before reaching the range of enemy weapons, they dismounted and continued their assault on foot; the attack was successful.
9. September 16 - Dembowskie - a platoon from the 4th squadron of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards a small German outpost located around a foresters' hut. The small number of Germans withdrew.
10. September 19 - Battle of Wólka Węglowa - Most of the 14th Jazłowiec Uhlan Regiment (without its MGs and AT platoon) was ordered to probe the German lines near the town of Wólka Węglowa. After elements of 9th Malopolska Uhlan Regiment arrived, the group was ordered to charge through the German lines to open the way towards Warsaw and Modlin for the rest of Polish forces who were withdrawing from the Battle of Bzura. The Poles charged through a German artillery barrage and took the German infantry by surprise. Polish losses were high (205 killed and wounded), the German losses remain unknown, but the Polish unit broke through and was the first to reach Warsaw after the Battle of Bzura.
11. September 19 - Łomianki - recce squad of 6th Mounted Artillery Detachment charged through the German lines in the town of Lomianki and paved the way for the rest of the unit to Warsaw.
12. September 21 - Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry who were preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.
13. September 23 - Krasnobród - 1st squadron of the 25th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. After heavy casualties, they reached the hilltop on which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division countercharged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ of the division, together with its commander and about 100 German soldiers. 40 Polish combatants previously taken prisoner by the Germans were also freed.
14. September 24 - Husynne - reserve squadron of the 14th Jazlowiec Uhlan Regiment (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was lead by the mounted police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic. However, the attack was soon halted by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties were similar on both sides.
15. September 26 - Morańce - 27th Uhlan Regiment twice charged an entrenched German infantry battalion in the village of Morańce. Both charges were repelled with heavy casualties (the Poles lost 20 KIA and about 50 wounded, German losses are unknown). After the second charge the Germans sent out a soldier with a white flag and, after a short discussion with the Polish commander of the Nowogródek Cavalry Brigade, the Germans withdrew.
The Polish had the most to lose and fought with honor in WWII.
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Originally posted by SpikesX
I heard HVAP was lighter than the AP,therefore less powerful. But the AP is heavier and more lethal.
To say it is less powerful is incorrect. There would be no reason to develop such a round if it was less effective at penetrating armor than standard steel shot.
When you find the penetrating power of your basic AP insufficient, the only way to get more penetrating power from your existing gun is to increase the velocity of the projectile. To increase the velocity, you can do one of two things: increase the charge, or lighten the round. You can only increase the charge so much before you damage your breech, so you approach a point where you must lighten the round.
Light alloys when striking a harder, denser material (like steel) tend to shatter. The HVAP round (High Velocity Armor Piercing) is a US term for a type of ammunition often called APCR (Armor Piercing Composite Rigid). It is a dense core, usually tungsten, surrounded by a light alloy sheath. The sheath allows the small, dense core to fit in the larger caliber gun. Because the projectile is lighter overall, the muzzle velocity of the round is faster. Because the core is dense, it will not shatter when striking the enemy armor and is more likely to penetrate.
That being said, the HVAP for the T-34 in AH seems to me to be underpowered. Perhaps this is what lead you to your conclusion.
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but the main gun on a Panzer III or Type 97 Chi-Ha is about as usefull as Polish lances against a Tiger or T-34's armor.
Would the early/mid/late war arenas settle this?
Panzer III's in early war would be historically accurate and a fair match against the M-3's, M-8's and T-34's found there.
Gv's in this game give the jabo drivers targets as well as funding further developments for everyone else. I've never understood the hostility of some pilots against gv's.
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Originally posted by DaYooper
T-34's found there
Not the one we have...
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So APCR is like the grandfather of Sabot rounds.
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Originally posted by E25280
To say it is less powerful is incorrect. There would be no reason to develop such a round if it was less effective at penetrating armor than standard steel shot.
When you find the penetrating power of your basic AP insufficient, the only way to get more penetrating power from your existing gun is to increase the velocity of the projectile. To increase the velocity, you can do one of two things: increase the charge, or lighten the round. You can only increase the charge so much before you damage your breech, so you approach a point where you must lighten the round.
Light alloys when striking a harder, denser material (like steel) tend to shatter. The HVAP round (High Velocity Armor Piercing) is a US term for a type of ammunition often called APCR (Armor Piercing Composite Rigid). It is a dense core, usually tungsten, surrounded by a light alloy sheath. The sheath allows the small, dense core to fit in the larger caliber gun. Because the projectile is lighter overall, the muzzle velocity of the round is faster. Because the core is dense, it will not shatter when striking the enemy armor and is more likely to penetrate.
That being said, the HVAP for the T-34 in AH seems to me to be underpowered. Perhaps this is what lead you to your conclusion.
absolutely correct, you must be a tanker
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Originally posted by BigPlay
absolutely correct, you must be a tanker
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :aok
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Originally posted by E25280
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :aok
thats realy old but it is:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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the firefly M4 was just a upgunned Sherman, the armor was still the same as the earlier M4. A PZIV's 75 should cut right thur it but here you have to hit them 3/4 times for a kill. As for killing tigers the 76 was better than the 75 but still they had a problem killing tigers. they were desgined to take on the PZV (Panthers)
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See Rule #10
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I think we should get the M-26 Pershing. Or the russian heavy tank the Js-2 (is it Js-2, its like _ _-2 dont remember, but it was apparently good all that i have heard about it which isnt much though...)
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MA is everything to some .... but not to HT and co. (thankfully). If so, guess there'd never be anything modeled but German uber-fluffle on treads. Glad to see the Shermie .... baybee. Looking fwd to coming back to give it a try. Lots of nice scenarios this could facilitate for the two dimensional pilots. :D
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Originally posted by angelsandair
I think we should get the M-26 Pershing. Or the russian heavy tank the Js-2 (is it Js-2, its like _ _-2 dont remember, but it was apparently good all that i have heard about it which isnt much though...)
The iS-2(josef stalin) tank.It was a good tank , other than it had a 33 second load time due to the 2 part ammunition.