Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tac on December 22, 2007, 12:03:54 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html
PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.
For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.
And by all appearances, it's starting to work.
"People are calling me telling me about their friend, their cousin, their neighbors -- they're moving back to Mexico," said Magdalena Schwartz, an immigrant-rights activist and pastor at a Mesa church. "They don't want to live in fear, in terror."
Martin Herrera, a 40-year-old illegal immigrant and masonry worker who lives in Camp Verde, 70 miles north of Phoenix, said he is planning to return to Mexico as soon as he ties up loose ends after living here for four years.
"I don't want to live here because of the new law and the oppressive environment," he said. "I'll be better in my country."
He called the employer-sanctions law "absurd."
"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."
There's no way to know how many illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona, especially now with many returning home for normal holiday visits. But economists, immigration lawyers and people who work in the immigrant community agree it's happening.
State Rep. Russell Pearce of Mesa, the author of the employer sanctions law, said his intent was to drive illegal immigrants out of Arizona.
"I'm hoping they will self-deport," Pearce said. "They broke the law. They're criminals."
Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license.
Nancy-Jo Merritt, an immigration lawyer who primarily represents employers, said her clients already have started to fire workers who can't prove they are in the country legally.
"Workers are being fired, of course," she said. "Nobody wants to find out later on that they've got somebody working for them who's not here legally."
When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.
She said the flagging economy, particularly in the construction industry, also is contributing to an immigrant exodus.
"As the jobs dwindle and the environment becomes more unpleasant in more ways than one, you then decide what to do, and perhaps leaving looks like a good idea," she said. "And certainly that creates a problem, because as people leave, they take the jobs they created with them."
Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.
"We have a free market. It'll adjust," he said. "Americans will be much better off."
He said he's not surprised illegal immigrants are leaving the state and predicts that more will go once the employer-sanctions law takes effect next month.
"It's attrition by enforcement," he said. "As you make this an unfriendly state for lawbreakers, I'm hoping they will pick up and leave.
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:aok
I predict by June of next year when it is realized just how much better off Arizona is, this law will be emulated by the other states.
Can you imagine California doing this?
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Originally posted by Tac
I predict by June of next year when it is realized just how much better off Arizona is, this law will be emulated by the other states.
I predict by next year, regardless of the "real" outcome, all you will hear about are the people who were "hurt" by this and how the state is suffering.
Real success does not fit the proper template for the media to report.
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Originally posted by Tac
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html
PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.
For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.
And by all appearances, it's starting to work.
"People are calling me telling me about their friend, their cousin, their neighbors -- they're moving back to Mexico," said Magdalena Schwartz, an immigrant-rights activist and pastor at a Mesa church. "They don't want to live in fear, in terror."
Martin Herrera, a 40-year-old illegal immigrant and masonry worker who lives in Camp Verde, 70 miles north of Phoenix, said he is planning to return to Mexico as soon as he ties up loose ends after living here for four years.
"I don't want to live here because of the new law and the oppressive environment," he said. "I'll be better in my country."
He called the employer-sanctions law "absurd."
"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."
There's no way to know how many illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona, especially now with many returning home for normal holiday visits. But economists, immigration lawyers and people who work in the immigrant community agree it's happening.
State Rep. Russell Pearce of Mesa, the author of the employer sanctions law, said his intent was to drive illegal immigrants out of Arizona.
"I'm hoping they will self-deport," Pearce said. "They broke the law. They're criminals."
Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license.
Nancy-Jo Merritt, an immigration lawyer who primarily represents employers, said her clients already have started to fire workers who can't prove they are in the country legally.
"Workers are being fired, of course," she said. "Nobody wants to find out later on that they've got somebody working for them who's not here legally."
When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.
She said the flagging economy, particularly in the construction industry, also is contributing to an immigrant exodus.
"As the jobs dwindle and the environment becomes more unpleasant in more ways than one, you then decide what to do, and perhaps leaving looks like a good idea," she said. "And certainly that creates a problem, because as people leave, they take the jobs they created with them."
Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.
"We have a free market. It'll adjust," he said. "Americans will be much better off."
He said he's not surprised illegal immigrants are leaving the state and predicts that more will go once the employer-sanctions law takes effect next month.
"It's attrition by enforcement," he said. "As you make this an unfriendly state for lawbreakers, I'm hoping they will pick up and leave.
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:aok
I predict by June of next year when it is realized just how much better off Arizona is, this law will be emulated by the other states.
Can you imagine California doing this?
Fear and terror... give me a flippin break. I hope Megadelnahandsomehunk takes her church back with her when she goes too.
I hope your correct!
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It was reported in the local news (Tucson) last week that the court challenge to the law was dismissed. It goes into effect on Jan. 1st.
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I think Oklahoma just passed a similar law and is seeing similar results. So far however, the only comments in the press were about some store owners who cater to illegal immigrants complaining that their customers seem to be disappearing.
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(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/Forum/Burritos.jpg)
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I predict by June of next year when it is realized just how much better off Arizona is, this law will be emulated by the other states.
That's a real good question. The power of the business' lobbyists' in California might be much greater than that of Arizona. Plus, Even with a Republican Governor, California's still primarily a Dem. state....And you can't really guess how they will vote. Then, there's the question on whether or not they would actually enforce such a law. Too many iffy's on Cali.
As far as the other states, My guess is that they will notice the influx of illegals' leaving Arizona, to try their luck in other places, and when the individual states' problems become bad enough, they will follow Arizona's example.
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I just got back from Home Depot. There were probably 75 illegal "migrant workers" looking for work in the parking lot. They must not have gotten the memo.
Living in Phoenix, it's hard to believe that this law will have any effect on anyone. The local media is filled with stories of how the sanctions against businesses who employ illegal immigrants will be devastating and how our local economy is doomed. Never mind the fact we have to shut down major thoroughfares every other week to accommodate a march by non-citizens. Never mind the fact that our hospitals are near bankruptcy because of services that go unpaid. Never mind the fact that our auto and identity theft rates double most other states. Never mind the fact that millions of dollars of tax free income goes out in the mail to tens of thousands of illegal workers every week.
No, this law is the dooming element in the future of the Arizona economy. :rolleyes:
I'm so looking forward to watching this town get smaller in my rear view mirror on my way outta here! 28 days and counting.
:aok
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They prolly go to California, San Francisco and LA seem to be advertising for them
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Californians will be less welcoming than you suspect. Anger over the invasion in progress is coming to a head in California as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see similar legislation passed in CA in the very near future.
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I hate burritos. Why would anyone think that mashed up beans would be good in anything?
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Funny thing about Burritos is that was an American contribution to the Mexican food menu and its popularity has since then trickled back across the border into Mexico.
At least thats what a dude said on one of those cooking shows I have to air.
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Originally posted by E25280
I predict by next year, regardless of the "real" outcome, all you will hear about are the people who were "hurt" by this and how the state is suffering.
Real success does not fit the proper template for the media to report.
And how will it be suffering?
The only ones who stand to gaim by illegals being here are the ones operating their business illegally.
Now their profit margins will be more in line with those who operate businesses legally.
Here in Jersey we have alot of illegals too.
I know there are alot of contractors that hire illegals.
I am not one of them.
I cant charge a penny more then the businesses who do business illegally.
The only difference between my business and theirs. besides legality.
Is how much profit the owners get.
And dont delude yourself into thinking that illegals are willing to work for alot less then citizens.
I know of alot of contractors that will tell you that while they are willing ot work for less. It isnt all that much less. Or not as much less as one would beleive.
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Originally posted by Tac
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html
For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.
That's good news to me. The fact that it was voted on by the people gives it that much more credibility!
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
That's good news to me. The fact that it was voted on by the people gives it that much more credibility!
Oh really? This goes to show how important it is to keep liberal judges off the bench...as well as the idiots who appoint them (Jimma, in this case)--59% of California voted FOR this, 1 judge chits on them
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/03/19/prop.187/
Approved by voters in 1994, the proposition would have denied health care, education and welfare benefits to illegal immigrants. Almost immediately, Judge Mariana Pfaelzer granted its opponents' request for a restraining order, which prevented it from taking effect.
In her final ruling, Pfaelzer rejected California's attempt to regulate immigration, which she said is the federal government's responsibility.
Judge Pfaelzer's ruling strikes down portions of the initiative that would have required law enforcement, teachers, social service and health care workers to verify a person's immigration status. Under Proposition 187, they would have had to report illegals to authorities and to deny them social service, health care and education benefits.
The American Civil Liberties Union's Southern California chapter was one of the five groups which sued to stop Proposition 187. In a statement, ACLU spokesman Mark Rosenbaum said Pfaelzer correctly denied California's attempt to regulate immigration.
"[It is] not a matter for individual states to attempt to formulate their own rules and procedures," Rosenbaum said. "School teachers and doctors are not substitutes for INS agents."
But California Gov. Pete Wilson, who supports Proposition 187, vowed to appeal, "so that the will of the people can be upheld."
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Originally posted by E25280
I predict by next year, regardless of the "real" outcome, all you will hear about are the people who were "hurt" by this and how the state is suffering.
Real success does not fit the proper template for the media to report.
You nailed it. Immigration....Iraq War...you name it. The press is in the business of drama. If there is none, the cameras have nothing to record.
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I don't see how making business owner liable for hiring an illegal is a responsibility of the federal government.
The feds are responsible for securing the border and preventing their illegal entrance as well as being responsible for the procedures to allow people to enter the country legally.
Once a person is in the country, in your state, ILLEGALLY it is the responsibility of the state to ensure their business are complying with the state law. They may not be responsible for deporting or 'correcting' the status of the illegal but they sure as heck as responsible for the legality of their businesses.
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Its a fine line we walk in this issue. Its hard not to be perceived as racist. I know, please don't think I am implying that in any way.
I truly believe that it is the responsibility of the Federal Government to secure our borders. I am at a loss as to why they don't. Beyond that, I think it is great that these two states (AZ and OK) have stepped up and heard the citizen's voice, thus, signing in Laws that punish employers who employ people who come here illegally.WTG!
There isn't a day goes by here in Phoenix where the illegal immigrant isn't portrayed as a victim in the media. Heck, the reporters that bring it to you are normally Hispanic. If they aren't dying in the desert in the summertime, they are being forced to stop loitering in the parking lot of a furniture store in central Phoenix. Poor them. The fix is easy. Come legally, we will be accommodating.
bj229r, Arizona passed a similar law in 2005 (IIRC) that banned illegal immigrants from access to publicly funded services like the County Hospital, certain charities and schools. It was put under injunction by a Federal judge and that was the last I heard of it. It's not surprising the same thing happened in California.
:aok
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Come legally, we will be accommodating.
Now that's just racist!
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Originally posted by Tac
I don't see how making business owner liable for hiring an illegal is a responsibility of the federal government.
The feds are responsible for securing the border and preventing their illegal entrance as well as being responsible for the procedures to allow people to enter the country legally.
Once a person is in the country, in your state, ILLEGALLY it is the responsibility of the state to ensure their business are complying with the state law. They may not be responsible for deporting or 'correcting' the status of the illegal but they sure as heck as responsible for the legality of their businesses.
Problem is, we have these "do-gooders" that make "illegal immigrant" friendly towns and cities, which prevents the Feds from doing their work.
The larger problem is the national attitude in general. We are a nation of laws, yet seldom do we see it enforced uniformly. So many in this country simply do not "get" that some actions have consequences. We've raised a generation around Barney the Dinosaur preaching that coming in last is just as wonderful as finishing first.
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Originally posted by moot
Now that's just racist!
Green Card please.....
:D
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Its a fine line we walk in this issue. Its hard not to be perceived as racist. I know, please don't think I am implying that in any way.
I truly believe that it is the responsibility of the Federal Government to secure our borders. I am at a loss as to why they don't. Beyond that, I think it is great that these two states (AZ and OK) have stepped up and heard the citizen's voice, thus, signing in Laws that punish employers who employ people who come here illegally.WTG!
There isn't a day goes by here in Phoenix where the illegal immigrant isn't portrayed as a victim in the media. Heck, the reporters that bring it to you are normally Hispanic. If they aren't dying in the desert in the summertime, they are being forced to stop loitering in the parking lot of a furniture store in central Phoenix. Poor them. The fix is easy. Come legally, we will be accommodating.
bj229r, Arizona passed a similar law in 2005 (IIRC) that banned illegal immigrants from access to publicly funded services like the County Hospital, certain charities and schools. It was put under injunction by a Federal judge and that was the last I heard of it. It's not surprising the same thing happened in California.
:aok
Libs cannot get what they want through the ballot box, more often than not, which is why they sooo picky about appointing judges
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Will this do?
(http://slawson.org/radio/images/monopoly20small.jpg)
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I wonder why a state with a republican controlled legislature and governor doesn't have something like that in place?
(http://blogs.chron.com/texaspolitics/archives/PerryntReligion_1_BRS.JPG)
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
I just got back from Home Depot. There were probably 75 illegal "migrant workers" looking for work in the parking lot. They must not have gotten the memo.
Living in Phoenix, it's hard to believe that this law will have any effect on anyone. The local media is filled with stories of how the sanctions against businesses who employ illegal immigrants will be devastating and how our local economy is doomed. Never mind the fact we have to shut down major thoroughfares every other week to accommodate a march by non-citizens. Never mind the fact that our hospitals are near bankruptcy because of services that go unpaid. Never mind the fact that our auto and identity theft rates double most other states. Never mind the fact that millions of dollars of tax free income goes out in the mail to tens of thousands of illegal workers every week.
No, this law is the dooming element in the future of the Arizona economy. :rolleyes:
I'm so looking forward to watching this town get smaller in my rear view mirror on my way outta here! 28 days and counting.
:aok
I agree but somehow arizona has the largest growing population in the US.
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Originally posted by rpm
I wonder why a state with a republican controlled legislature and governor doesn't have something like that in place?
(http://blogs.chron.com/texaspolitics/archives/PerryntReligion_1_BRS.JPG)
Arizonas Govenor (Janet Napolitano) is a dem.
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sooo.. when I said a couple years ago that the solution was simply to arrest the employers... It was a workable solution?
lazs
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It is that simple, don't persecute the illegals. After all they are just looking for a better life. Hammer the employers who use them to undercut the wages of citizens and legal aliens alike. A few high profile prosecutions would scare off the employers.
There won't be a shortage of labour (or labor as you say). There are many many candidates out there who want to move to America legally. If it's true that America needs workers and so many illegals can find work then there is plenty of work for legal immigrants.
It does seem a logical?
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cpxx.. not only that but we used to have a very good program that allowed guest workers from mexico... only the workers tho... no family members who should have been in school or no women not able to work.
There is no problem with needing slave labor.. the problem is with needing new democrat socialist voters.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sooo.. when I said a couple years ago that the solution was simply to arrest the employers... It was a workable solution?
lazs
It's the only truly workable solution which is why it was and will be resisted by those who want the cheap labor and votes.
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Seems like the whole kink in any system that's put into place is that the 'feelings' of illegal immigrants always comes before what is lawful and right. Used to be that I thought this was almost strictly a democratic flaw ~ turns out that republicans have that same ball-less flaw too.
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Let's not forget about the florida wet foot dry foot rule either. This is a law that needs some rethinking as well. They said the illegal mexican aliens would be fined 10,000.00. This is so for every 10k taken from an illegal immigrant (as if they would be able to collect it) it goes right to a cuban migrant who makes it to shore in florida. For every cuban that makes it ashore they get 10k and are able to collect social security with in 5 years of living in the U.S. We aren't able to collect social security until we are 65 if they still have the money then. These are some things that don't get spoken about too much by the dept. of immigration huh?
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The US has always set different immigration policies for specific countries that we consider to have oppressive governments, or who we have other political interests with. For example, we let in entire boatloads of Vietnamese immigrants, without making any of them swim and without adjusting immigration quotas for other countries.
It's hard to draw a parallel between our national policy concerning Cuba with our national policy concerning Mexico. Yes, the quality of life in Cuba is arguably better than the quality of life in parts of Mexico, but the whole political prisoner and nation isolation bit we have going on with Cuba makes our policy on Cuban immigration a special case.
It's not quite apples and oranges... more like comparing tangerines and oranges. They are similar issues, but it's definately not the same situation.
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Does anyone else find it strange to see TxMom type "Ball-less"? Just feels weird to me.
:D
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Originally posted by cpxxx
It is that simple, don't persecute the illegals. After all they are just looking for a better life. Hammer the employers who use them to undercut the wages of citizens and legal aliens alike. A few high profile prosecutions would scare off the employers.
There won't be a shortage of labour (or labor as you say). There are many many candidates out there who want to move to America legally. If it's true that America needs workers and so many illegals can find work then there is plenty of work for legal immigrants.
It does seem a logical?
NO it dosent when "you" can hire 12 to do the work of who "I" hire 4 then go home and share with "3-4" when I am "1". they hijac the economy.
if they want a better life let it start in mexico, its a very rich state. the gov down they is very selfish.
lets send the guns to help.... oh wait we do allrdy :|
GO! good riddance!
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Does anyone else find it strange to see TxMom type "Ball-less"? Just feels weird to me.
:D
Yeah, sorry. I think that's not even a word. ballless? Looks odd to have three L's next to one another. But then with the little hyphen there, it doesn't look right either. So ~ I don't think that's actually a word.
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I think I just have the whole "June Cleaver" impression. Was odd to hear (see) you say that.
:D
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Originally posted by cpxxx
It is that simple, don't persecute the illegals. After all they are just looking for a better life. Hammer the employers who use them to undercut the wages of citizens and legal aliens alike. A few high profile prosecutions would scare off the employers.
There won't be a shortage of labour (or labor as you say). There are many many candidates out there who want to move to America legally. If it's true that America needs workers and so many illegals can find work then there is plenty of work for legal immigrants.
It does seem a logical?
Don't bother prosecuting thieves either. After all, they are just looking for a better life.
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Fear??
Terror??
Oppression??
And, may I ask....WHO is it that is breaking the law, again?
If you aren't in America legally...GTFO.
68ROX
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I didn't say that you shouldn't prosecute the illegals.. just that you wouldn't have to. better to do the arrests that do the most good... for every 100 employers you arrest and jail... 100,000 illegals will simply leave. Any that stay can be arrested when they get caught.. if they get caught.
It is just so much easier and effective to arrest the traitorous scumbag employers. It is sorta like.. you can understand why an enemy soldier does what he does but a traitor really sucks.
lazs
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That is what you get laz with the American god, the mighty $$$$.
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Hmm... I thought the American god was rights for the individual milo? Nothing wrong with making a buck tho.
I am just saying that if some try to compete for the "mighty$$$$" by playing fair and others do it by using slave labor and making everyone else pay to make it worth while for the slaves (free health care and housing and schools) that....
It is a real violation of individual freedom... a real violation of the real American way.
lazs
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Originally posted by texasmom
Yeah, sorry. I think that's not even a word. ballless? Looks odd to have three L's next to one another. But then with the little hyphen there, it doesn't look right either. So ~ I don't think that's actually a word.
LOL this reminds me of Ghostbusters
"Sir! He called me ***k-less!...."
"Is THIS true?"
"Yes your honor, THIS man has no ***k":rofl :rofl
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No laz, the god $$$$ trumps all else.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Don't bother prosecuting thieves either. After all, they are just looking for a better life.
You are not comparing like with like. Thieves are criminals. As far as I know it's not a criminal offence to be illegal. If it was the prisons would be full of them. My sister was illegal back in the eighties in New York. She worked damm hard and even paid taxes. I know many like that. I know of some who run businesses, pay their taxes and hire Americans citizens. Are they criminal?
The reality is that America like most western countries needs immigrants. The problem is that unscrupulous employers prefer illegals. Those employers are the cause of the problem.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
As far as I know it's not a criminal offence to be illegal.
... hence the term "illegal alien."
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Originally posted by cpxxx
You are not comparing like with like. Thieves are criminals. As far as I know it's not a criminal offence to be illegal. If it was the prisons would be full of them. My sister was illegal back in the eighties in New York. She worked damm hard and even paid taxes. I know many like that. I know of some who run businesses, pay their taxes and hire Americans citizens. Are they criminal?
The reality is that America like most western countries needs immigrants. The problem is that unscrupulous employers prefer illegals. Those employers are the cause of the problem.
cpxxx,
The key word here is illegal. Yes it is a violation of criminal law to be here in the USA as an illegal immigrant. You can, and many do, get a hearing on it. Many waive the hearing knowing it just takes time they would use to come right back into the country. Yes they are arrested and held in the Border Patrol holding facilities.
Getting some immigrants is a good thing. Getting rather large numbers of them and especially the ones who don't intend to do anything but rob, burglarize and other criminal acts here is not good.
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CPX,
I dont mean any personal offense but if your sister was here illegally then yes, she was a criminal. Illegal = against the law = criminal. You dont pay your parking ticket you are technically a criminal. You enter private property without permissions you are a criminal. You refuse to leave private property when asked to by the authorities, you are a criminal.
Entering a sovereign nation without permission and remaining in it when it is clear even to non-english speakers that it is against the law (hence the term 'illegal') is a criminal act.
The amazing thing is, its an individual committing a crime against an entire nation not against another individual.
I wonder how she paid taxes as an illegal though. You need a social security number to pay taxes.
Prisons ARE mostly full of illegal aliens if you haven't noticed. Those that commit violent crime and get caught that is. If anyone gets rounded up in an INS sting they get deported rather quickly instead of being thrown in jail..and you know why? because they are foreign citizens and cannot be held in US prisions unless the crime committed is something like rape or murder (and even then most of those get deported which is great..they get to be in their own country's prisons.. US prisons are like a holiday inn in comparison).
That businesses bear blame for it? Sure they do. Hence why the Arizona law is great news. However, just because there is a job open in Arizona is still no excuse whatsoever for an individual to cross a border illegally and reside illegally in a country. That is the sole responsibility of the person committing the crime. Its not like 'oops i found myself one day working for this guy in arizona' you know.. they planned before hand how to enter the US illegally and planned to remain illegal working for people like those until they become eligible for any carebear laws that benefit THEM over the legal aliens and US citizens.
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what they said.
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My sister will be delighted to be described as a criminal:eek: Luckily she is now hiding out back here raising her kids. It is possible to have a social security number and be illegal by the way.
Look you cannot resolve the illegal immigrant problem by treating them as if they were murderers, rapists or thieves. Most just want to work, provide for their families, better themselves. It is insanely difficult to get a green card unless you meet certain standards or are lucky.
We're not just talking about Mexicans here. Many of you would claim Irish heritage and there was a strong tradition of emigration to the USA. No more, the only way in now is to go illegally unless you get lucky with the visa lottery or have some in demand skills. Yet those who go illegally find work, often highly paid work. The same goes for people in most other countries who wish to move to the USA. If there is work available why is it so difficult to get a green card?
Clearly the system needs reform and a good way to start is to stop the employers from hiring illegals. Then legal immigrants or Americans can get those jobs, pay taxes and contribute to the country.
Viewing illegals in simplistic terms as mere criminals contributes nothing to solving the problem.
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they are criminals. that is not to say that they are all terrible people.
but that also doesn't excuse the flagrant disregard for the law or the people who those laws have been enacted to protect.
this is not an issue of immigration. all americans are immigrants. this is an issue of illegal immigration.
just as breaking and entering is a crime, so is illegal immigration.
she would be in violation of our nations laws.
she makes it harder for people who wish to play by the rules to have an opportunity to do so because we have to spend so much of our national resources combating those who dont want to be bothered with waiting in line or just fighting for a better life back home.
it is also a matter of ideology. you say that your sister was back home now?
oh that's nice. so she came here, took what she could and then kept her allegience elsewhere? i want immigrants who want to stay here. to become americans. to raise americans. legal migrants commit to this aim. illegals do not. (by proxy of thier decision to stay outside of the system)
those who don't want to do that? fine. but be documented and have to renew and be checked regularly. no more hiding in the fringes. guests. not stowaways.
do i think that borders should be open? sure. ideally, i think i should be able to live anywhere in the world that i please. but not under a false pretense and forged documents.
people who want more immigration need to begin thinking in terms of fair exchange. would i want to move to their country? no? why? maybe corruption or civil unrest or lower standard of living...is it easy to live in others countries? nope. most have even harsher laws than we do. so how do i win in this exchange unless i can feel comfortable knowing that the people who i am surrounded by are generally law abiding.
yes. the employers are part of the blame. just as the pusher is part of the drug problem. but that don't excuse the abuser. not one iota.
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Best news I have read in a long time
,Adios MOFo's !
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Of course the more unsavory illegals probably aren't holding down a job that can be impacted by enforcement of employment laws. Still, it will relieve a lot of pressure on our social infrastructure, well, Arizona's anyhow, for now.
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Mexican illegals seem to have a VERY high rate of alcoholism, the fewer in this country, the fewer killing innocent people with their unlicensed, uninsured cars
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Clearly the system needs reform and a good way to start is to stop the employers from hiring illegals. Then legal immigrants or Americans can get those jobs, pay taxes and contribute to the country.
Some things are so simple, and you wouldn't have to spend billions on a fence and put us in Fortress America mentality.
shamus
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Heh.. I saw a debate and Giuliani's answer to the illegal immigrant question was to build a fence and institute a national ID card.
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Originally posted by Suave
Heh.. I saw a debate and Giuliani's answer to the illegal immigrant question was to build a fence and institute a national ID card.
His attitude before he started running for pres was quite diferent
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Look you cannot resolve the illegal immigrant problem by treating them as if they were murderers, rapists or thieves. Most just want to work, provide for their families, better themselves. It is insanely difficult to get a green card unless you meet certain standards or are lucky.
cpxxx,
Sorry, but they have intentionally broken our laws and are criminals.
Did she get a SSN lawfully or through document fraud?
Look: bottom line, as simple as I can say it...
It doesn't matter a bit how difficult it is to get a Green Card. Tough. If its too difficult then go elsewhere. Its not our job to make it easy for anyone. We've settled our frontiers. We have no particular need for more immigrants.
If we allow you in, you will jump through every hoop, fill out every document, pay every fee, wait any period we so choose, and IF you are let in, then it is a priviledge you should be thankful for. It is not a right.
If at any time, any of those conditions are unacceptable, then you are free to go elsewhere. Period.
Regards,
Wab
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I am not aware of any method to secure a social security number without receiving clearance from the INS as a resident. You can get a temporary number that is given to you as a work permit while your residence documents are processed but not before submitting your immigration documents.
I *am* a legal immigrant and believe me, coming from Colombia is a hell of a lot harder than if i came from an Euro nation or Mexico or any other south american country. This drug problem has us flagged very heavily.
My entire family went through the immigration process and we did receive our greencards within the year. Were we lucky or did we merely follow the rules? I do not know. Almost every immigrant ive met have had a smooth experience with the INS and some have had to wait a couple of years (given legal temporary status by INS to remain in country) but its worked out fine.
What's real sad is that most people in the US illegally that eventually do try to attain legal status the right way have to leave the US and return.. if they leave the US in a plane or get checked by border patrol that hurts them a lot because it gets flagged in the computer that they exited the country when they had no legal entry permit (or long expired tourist visa) and when they submit their legal paperwork to INS that flag usually causes their applications to be denied or have a buttload of trouble getting it approved.
I dont know your sister's status right now but I do hope she gets her status straightened out. Things might get very unpleasant past this election. :(
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Originally posted by cpxxx
My sister will be delighted to be described as a criminal:eek: Luckily she is now hiding out back here raising her kids. It is possible to have a social security number and be illegal by the way.
Look you cannot resolve the illegal immigrant problem by treating them as if they were murderers, rapists or thieves. Most just want to work, provide for their families, better themselves. It is insanely difficult to get a green card unless you meet certain standards or are lucky.
We're not just talking about Mexicans here. Many of you would claim Irish heritage and there was a strong tradition of emigration to the USA. No more, the only way in now is to go illegally unless you get lucky with the visa lottery or have some in demand skills. Yet those who go illegally find work, often highly paid work. The same goes for people in most other countries who wish to move to the USA. If there is work available why is it so difficult to get a green card?
Clearly the system needs reform and a good way to start is to stop the employers from hiring illegals. Then legal immigrants or Americans can get those jobs, pay taxes and contribute to the country.
Viewing illegals in simplistic terms as mere criminals contributes nothing to solving the problem.
Does your sister drive on the emergency stop lane when there's traffic jams too?
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Originally posted by bj229r
Mexican illegals seem to have a VERY high rate of alcoholism, the fewer in this country, the fewer killing innocent people with their unlicensed, uninsured cars
verry ignorant statement, and a stupid stereotype. enough said.
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Take the booze part out and it's mostly right.
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milo... are you an American or do you know a lot of Americans? If so.. you must only know the very worst of us. Probly tho.. you just believe what people tell you.
lazs
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jb88.. this is one of the things that you and I agree on. I am sure that there are others but so far.. this is about all I have seen.
I too would not mind open borders but.. open borders and socialism do not work.
The only way that will work is to lower the standard of living of everyone in the country to that of the poorest who enters the country. Free school.. free medical.. free money... free housing... all yours just for crossing a border.
Get rid of the "free" stuff for everyone and then.. open the borders.
That isn't going to happen in the forseeable future sooo.. we need to act in a practical manner to stop the drain on the taxpayer and the lowering of quality of life for our citizens.
We do that by getting rid of the problem.. the problem is that we have filled our yard with bird feeders full of bird seed and now we have way too many birds.
we have to get rid of the feeders.. sure.. some.. a few.. of the birds who are too stupid or habituated (by us feeding them) will starve while cheeping away in the empty feeders but in the end.. it is the only way.
Bust into the employers houses in the dead of night with our ninja swat teams and drag em out into the floodlights and throw em into vans where they will be driven off to prison.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Bust into the employers houses in the dead of night with our ninja swat teams and drag em out into the floodlights and throw em into vans where they will be driven off to prison.
lazs
And too think, you were ready to get rid of all the ninja police. ;)
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I was joking. simply go to their business with the coke bottle accountants. take the records and then send em a letter to appear in court.
the cowardly traitors will just show up to court and then go to prison.. where else they gonna go?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I was joking. simply go to their business with the coke bottle accountants. take the records and then send em a letter to appear in court.
the cowardly traitors will just show up to court and then go to prison.. where else they gonna go?
lazs
Mexico?
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good enough for me.
lazs
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Originally posted by AKIron
Mexico?
:rofl
Funniest thing I've heard all week! Thanks!
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Originally posted by AKIron
Mexico?
Nope, they can't go to Mexico. Mexico actually enforces their immigration laws.
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Originally posted by eagl
Nope, they can't go to Mexico. Mexico actually enforces their immigration laws.
how dare they, don't they understand there are gringos that are just seeking a better life?
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Mexico has to be tough of immigration. They have no (working) social welfare system for the Illegal Americans' to suck dry.
:t
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Originally posted by eagl
Nope, they can't go to Mexico. Mexico actually enforces their immigration laws.
True, unless you have enough pesos.
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Originally posted by AKIron
True, unless you have enough pesos.
which is another very strong arguement for only accepting those who wish to be on a genuine path to citizenship for any length of time.
latino governments and people are indoctrinated with more corruption by any standard.
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Originally posted by sunfan1121
verry ignorant statement, and a stupid stereotype. enough said.
Because a statement SEEMS cruel doesn't make it any less true--google 'illegal alien dui' and you will find a sea of innocent DEAD people who would be alive but for the people behind my 'ignorant' statement
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55965
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/
http://www.totaldui.com/dui_articles_dui_bill_and_illegals.htm
http://kerryfoxlive.com/wordpress/?p=556
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/KTVKLNews20071022_Alba-Cano_annabelle-sandoval.199171411.html
http://beta.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071218/NEWS03/71218065/0/NEWS03
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=92015&ref=rss
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/vdarecrimevictims.html
http://virginiabeach.injuryboard.com/general-personal-injury/recent-dui-wreck-in-virginia-beach-sets-off-national-immigration-firestormfox-news-stirs-controversy.php
Though no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens, a number of groups have produced estimates based on data collected from prisons, news reports and independent research.
Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.
link (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103)
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Originally posted by bj229r
Mexican illegals seem to have a VERY high rate of alcoholism, the fewer in this country, the fewer killing innocent people with their unlicensed, uninsured cars
Just talk to any I.C.E agent and you will find out that there is FAR more problems than drunk driving Illegals. ALOT of the crimes commited here are by illegals.
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Originally posted by Tango
Just talk to any I.C.E agent and you will find out that there is FAR more problems than drunk driving Illegals. ALOT of the crimes commited here are by illegals.
Lets not forget the MS13 gangs. I read that the black gangs stopped fighting eachother because the mexican ones were taking over in LA
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Originally posted by Tango
Just talk to any I.C.E agent and you will find out that there is FAR more problems than drunk driving Illegals. ALOT of the crimes commited here are by illegals.
Yup, just ask the families of Nick Erfle, Brandon Winfield, Hugo Arango, Kristopher Eggle, Saul Gallegos, David March, Tony Zepetella, Daniel Golden. I could list many more but these are all cops killed by illegal aliens.
it is estimated that 95% of all homicide warrants in the US are against illegal aliens. Almost 2/3 of all felony fugitive warrants are for illegals.
There are around 240,000 illegal alien sex offenders in the US with an average of 4 crimes per criminal. That's almost one million sex crimes that have been committed in the US.
I could go on and on. Open borders? You got them... hope you are pleased.
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In May, I'll fly out and mow your grass Steve. You know, since all the "Illegals" are leaving. But, it's gonna cost you $327.50. I get a 2 hour lunch and 3-20 minute breaks. You also need to supply the mower and gas.
Who says Americans wont take these jobs?!
:D
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
In May, I'll fly out and mow your grass Steve. You know, since all the "Illegals" are leaving. But, it's gonna cost you $327.50. I get a 2 hour lunch and 3-20 minute breaks. You also need to supply the mower and gas.
Who says Americans wont take these jobs?!
:D
Thing is when I was a teenager, I mowed yards and raked leaves for spending money. I'm sure there are teenagers out there that would rather do that then flip burgers at Burger king.
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we got along just fine before the latest influx.
we will get along just fine when the law starts getting enforced as well.
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
In May, I'll fly out and mow your grass Steve. You know, since all the "Illegals" are leaving. But, it's gonna cost you $327.50. I get a 2 hour lunch and 3-20 minute breaks. You also need to supply the mower and gas.
Who says Americans wont take these jobs?!
:D
There's plenty of kids who will do it for 5 or 10 bucks. The thing about americans not taking the jobs is a myth.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
There's plenty of kids who will do it for 5 or 10 bucks. The thing about americans not taking the jobs is a myth.
Yeah the frikin illegals even put the dang kids out of work with their stake bed toyotas sittin three abreast.
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Heh, if Steve lives much south of Flagstaff he doesnt HAVE any grass:)
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I enjoy mowing my own lawn.
lazs
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me too.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I enjoy mowing my own lawn.
lazs
Not me. Sounds like a 'son' job to me.
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I have not had a "lawn" since I left the home I grew up in. Never missed it a bit. I'm also alergic to the most common grass here, bermuda grass.
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Originally posted by bj229r
Heh, if Steve lives much south of Flagstaff he doesnt HAVE any grass:)
Steve lives about 200 miles south of Flagstaff on the west side of the Metro Phoenix area. I assure you, if he has an HOA, he has grass.
:aok
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
There's plenty of kids who will do it for 5 or 10 bucks. The thing about americans not taking the jobs is a myth.
I have a bud who does lawns and landscaping for three or four medical plazas, a hospital and a few apartment complexes .
He is a recently retired fireman. He started this a few years ago when he was still with the FD due to the one on, two off schedule.
It pays quite a bit more than 5 or 10 bucks a pop.
Matter of fact, it pays quite well. He is a gringo and didn`t even have to learn a second language. :)
When it comes to home lawns around here, most folks do what they have always done..............do it themselves.
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A guy I know has a landscaping business.. he hires no illegals.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
A guy I know has a landscaping business.. he hires no illegals.
lazs
Yep..........it`s amazing. Even U.S. citizens can do it.
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There is a guy here who cleans up dog poop for a living. The name of his business is Clean Paws.
He's your average white guy.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I enjoy mowing my own lawn.
lazs
Not me. But dammed if I'll pay somebody to do it while I'm healthy.
Glove
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Steve lives about 200 miles south of Flagstaff on the west side of the Metro Phoenix area. I assure you, if he has an HOA, he has grass.
:aok
Flagstaff is closer to Phoenix than 200 miles. I lived in 4 HOA's in the Tucson area. Only one of them required any lawn in the common areas and they took care of the maintenance of it and that spans a time from 86 to 2004.