Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MrRiplEy[H] on December 26, 2007, 04:12:58 PM
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This could be really cool for games like AH and fps.
Duh.. DIY trackir (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw)
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http://carl.kenner.googlepages.com/glovepie
I use glovepie to emulate trackir with my headset, but you can use it for mapping all sorts of controller inputs (including wii). IE its a ready made wii-trackir emulator thats been around for quite a while.
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Wow, so when there is a hot chick, with major cleavage on TV, and the camera guy won't pan down, you can just stand up and get a better view! Brilliant!
I would love to see that technology implemented.
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http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/
Been using one for years in flight sims.....love it.
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LOL@myself.. so trackir is actually doing the same effect? I always thought it was limited to sideways tracking. I think I have to try it.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
LOL@myself.. so trackir is actually doing the same effect? I always thought it was limited to sideways tracking. I think I have to try it.
Earlier versions of TrackIR only had X/Y axis of movement. But newest version has everything wii remote can do and 'roll' motion. You can see video on their site.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
LOL@myself.. so trackir is actually doing the same effect? I always thought it was limited to sideways tracking. I think I have to try it.
Yes, it's exactly the same thing. Full 6DOF. There are some AH2 vids on that naturalpoint site...
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i bought Naturalpoints trackir aprox 6 month ago,
especialy because i like to fly Helis (FSX),
what can i say, i sucseeded all the Heli Missions on the
first try! with the Headtracker.
This is a great tool to widen your SA towards reality,
today i even didnt bother flying around without the headtrack on! LOL
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But it must be disorienting because your head motion is not accurately transformed to screen (the screen itself is stationary).
What was striking in the display I posted above was that he treated the view like a port to outside world. With trackir you don't get a natural head motion.
So in the end motion tracking together with HMD is the only way to go.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
But it must be disorienting because your head motion is not accurately transformed to screen (the screen itself is stationary).
.
It isn't. You can get used very quickly.
Even when flying a bubble canoply plane like the P51D I can precisely tell which way/angles I am looking relative to my plane, even without having any visual clue like cockpit frames, headrest or panel.
That's why TIR is so formidable in dogfights.
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
What was striking in the display I posted above was that he treated the view like a port to outside world. With trackir you don't get a natural head motion
Trust me, that thing works EXACTLY like a TIR. A camera and a few LED's. There is no difference. The motion is as natural or non-natural as with that Wii controller. I could produce the same result with my Trackir... If I only had such a nice screen ;)
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Originally posted by Lusche
It isn't. You can get used very quickly.
Even when flying a bubble canoply plane like the P51D I can precisely tell which way/angles I am looking relative to my plane, even without having any visual clue like cockpit frames, headrest or panel.
That's why TIR is so formidable in dogfights.
Trust me, that thing works EXACTLY like a TIR. A camera and a few LED's. There is no difference. The motion is as natural or non-natural as with that Wii controller. I could produce the same result with my Trackir... If I only had such a nice screen ;)
No it doesn't.. he coded the software with a different idea in mind. The technology itself is indeed the same.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
No it doesn't.. he coded the software with a different idea in mind. The technology itself is indeed the same.
What different idea? The image on screen is moving relative to your head position, which is read by scanning some IR dots. Thats the basic idea behind both.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Trust me, that thing works EXACTLY like a TIR. A camera and a few LED's. There is no difference. The motion is as natural or non-natural as with that Wii controller. I could produce the same result with my Trackir... If I only had such a nice screen ;)
No it doesn't, this guys software is wierd. I can't see a real purpose for it tbh in the way it maps views.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
No it doesn't, this guys software is wierd. I can't see a real purpose for it tbh in the way it maps views.
Both TIR and Wii just give the positional data of their controllers to whatever program it calling for it. May it be some game like AH2 or that fancy images we see in that clip.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Both TIR and Wii just give the positional data of their controllers to whatever program it calling for it. May it be some game like AH2 or that fancy images we see in that clip.
Watch the video ... again... and again... and again... until you see what is different cos I can't be arsed explaining it.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Watch the video ... again... and again... and again... until you see what is different cos I can't be arsed explaining it.
Because you can't? Because there ain't a difference on the controller side?
Here he is explaining:
(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4335/wiica6.jpg)
"The sensor bar is simply two sources of infrared light.When the camera sees the two dot's of light, it's going to give an approximate location of my head horizontally, vertically and in distance."
That is, it reads the sensors position in 3D space.
Now guess what a TrackIr does?
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7519/trackiradzh3.jpg)
It's camera sees 3 dots, which gives it a pproximate location of my head horizontally, vertically and in distance. (And additionally it can also read rotation around Z-axis, because it has 3 light sources instead of only 2.)
So if you plug in my TrackIr instead of that Wii controller & camera, it would provide exact the same positional information to that graphics program he is using for demonstration.
A very short youtube clip - you can see that my head is moving in 3D space in that ostwind turret. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1leyHEDh2o0) The reason the Wii film is much better looking is the big screen and the carefully selected graphics.
At naturalpoint you can read:
"This whole experience is commonly called a "VR fishtank" method (as opposed to the "VR Goggles" experience you may have seen in movies), because you don't have to wear any sort of headset or hardware. Everything is handled using advanced motion capture techniques.
The point of TrackIR is to make controlling your game's view completely seemless and natural. You will forget you have TrackIR setup at all, because looking at your monitor is like looking through a window into a 3D world."
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
What was striking in the display I posted above was that he treated the view like a port to outside world. With trackir you don't get a natural head motion.
he was moving around a few meters left/right/forward/back to even see
that effect on the screen. Inside a cockpit you mostly sit on the same place
and just move your Neck & Head around, and this is for what trackir is made for.
Beside that, it works doing the same thing what he is doing with trackir,
but i dont know what game needs you to run around in front of your Monitor *g*
MrRiplEy why dont you look for some Trackir Videos on the www
to even understand what we are talking about. I use myTrackir also
for Racing with LifeforSpeed & rFactor, so i dont need a 3 Monitor
setup to have the needed SA while overtaking.
turn your head left and you look to the left.
And you say with trackir you dont get natural motion?
While flying, i use both legs for pedals, both hands for Stick & throttle,
and my head for looking around, whats more natural?
and the best thing is after1 minute you forget about that you
are using Trackir at all ! because its more natural to use your neck/head
to look around than your hand moving a mouse.
On the other hand i understand everyone who didnt tryed out a
head tracker, its not believable at all.
Hey Trackir works with every virtual Glases too,
if you are into VR (like me) this is one further to the
reality, especialy with real 3D glasses 8)
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Originally posted by Lusche
Because you can't? Because there ain't a difference on the controller side?
...That is, it reads the sensors position in 3D space.
[/B]
you're getting close.
But I'll help, name one instance of trackir use where the window is 'fixed'.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
you're getting close.
But I'll help, name one instance of trackir use where the window is 'fixed'.
You still do not seem to get the difference between the controller input (Wii vs TIR) and any graphic / VR / game software that is using the inputs.
TIR is reporting: Head position (X,Y,Z)
that Wii sensor is reporting: Head position (X,Y,Z).
Did you actually watch that 7sec youtube clip of mine? You would have noticed that it's the same kind of fully 3D movement, just not as pretty as in this guys vid. But that's not the controllers fault.
You continue to claim there is one, yet fail to produce any arguments or facts. Instead you are playing silly 3rd grader games "I know but I won't tell" :rolleyes:
Why just simple telling poor Lusche where he is wrong? ;)
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Originally posted by Lusche
You still do not seem to get the difference between the controller input (Wii vs TIR) and any graphic / VR / game software that is using the inputs.
TIR is reporting: Head position (X,Y,Z)
that Wii sensor is reporting: Head position (X,Y,Z).
Did you actually watch that 7sec youtube clip of mine? You would have noticed that it's the same kind of fully 3D movement, just not as pretty as in this guys vid. But that's not the controllers fault.
You continue to claim there is one, yet fail to produce any arguments or facts. Instead you are playing silly 3rd grader games "I know but I won't tell" :rolleyes:
Why just simple telling poor Lusche where he is wrong? ;)
This guys driver interacts with the user on 3 points of reference, a world, a window, and a head position. A trackir or VR headset interfacts with the user on 2 points of reference, a world and a head position.
As I said I cannot see any purpose to the way it maps views, and as I posted above there is a link to some software thats been around for ages that will map a wii exactly to a TIR. This guy is trying to acheive something entirely different with is 3D interactive, which I as I said earlier I cannot see a practical use for.
I was not debating the methodology (LED/IR tracking), I am well aware of the technology Wii controllers use (a combination of optical tracking with accelerometers). I was debating the end result he was aiming for/getting.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
This guys driver interacts with the user on 3 points of reference, a world, a window, and a head position. A trackir or VR headset interfacts with the user on 2 points of reference, a world and a head position.
As I said I cannot see any purpose to the way it maps views, and as I posted above there is a link to some software thats been around for ages that will map a wii exactly to a TIR. This guy is trying to acheive something entirely different with is 3D interactive, which I as I said earlier I cannot see a practical use for.
I was not debating the methodology (LED/IR tracking), I am well aware of the technology Wii controllers use (a combination of optical tracking with accelerometers). I was debating the end result he was aiming for/getting.
WTF are you talking about? Go look at BlackShark 6DOF video....you'll get your world, window? and head position.
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Originally posted by Russian
WTF are you talking about? Go look at BlackShark 6DOF video....you'll get your world, window? and head position.
Tell me this then, does the screen in blackshark with regarrds to TrackIR represent a static 3 dimensional position or dynamic 3 dimensional position. Then tell me in this guys demo whether it is static or dynamic.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Tell me this then, does the screen in blackshark with regarrds to TrackIR represent a static 3 dimensional position or dynamic 3 dimensional position. Then tell me in this guys demo whether it is static or dynamic.
What part of "go look at Black Shark 6DOF video" don't you understand?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8HO8zu5QOc4
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The wiimote guys code didn't have artificial head movement which exaggerates your neck movements. He focused on getting a 3D like effect through an exactly correct point of view image. TrackIR does it partly but the software (games) are coded differently for practicality reasons (i.e. having to be able to move your game characters head without looking away from the monitor).
So whenever your point of view gets altered from the 100% natural one, you lose the 3D effect. Plain and simple. The wiimote guy said it in the video: Only one person gets the effect at a time so whenever the point of view is artificially changed it breaks the illusion.
Seems that some here just don't understand the difference.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The wiimote guys code didn't have artificial head movement which exaggerates your neck movements. He focused on getting a 3D like effect through an exactly correct point of view image.
And TrackIr can do just exact the same. That "artifical" exaggerated head movement is just a setting, included for convenience in computer games and freely adjustable. You could just disable it and you will have exactly the same effect you did see in that Wii film, with a exactly correct point of view image.
I can walk the very same way in front of that huge screen with my TIR and I will have the very same effect.
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
So whenever your point of view gets altered from the 100% natural one, you lose the 3D effect
You never have used a TIR with 6DOF, didn't you?
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Seems that some here just don't understand the difference.
You are trying to put a difference were there really is none.
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There is a big difference in seeing things naturally and having to look sideways when moving your head artificially.. :D
The wiimote version is limited but it's limited to real motion.
With trackir and current games the moment you move your head in x/y axis, you break the natural point of view and this leads to losing the wiimote guys effect. The view becomes like in the part where he displays how it looks through an outsiders eyes.
So while trackir has the capability to do the same it doesn't. Just for practicality as people aren't surrounded by monitors usually. No matter how you explain it, the motion and the view are not natural if the display doesn't hang in front of your eyes and display exactly the correct point of view to the spectator.
Which is why only HMD can ultimately solve the problem.
You said it yourself in this post:
Originally posted by Lusche
It isn't. You can get used very quickly.
There's no 'getting used to' when the tracking is natural i.e. the brain gets fooled by the motion.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
There is a big difference in seeing things naturally and having to look sideways when moving your head artificially.. :D
The wiimote version is limited but it's limited to real motion.
With trackir and current games the moment you move your head in x/y axis, you break the natural point of view and this leads to losing the wiimote guys effect. The view becomes like in the part where he displays how it looks through an outsiders eyes.
So while trackir has the capability to do the same it doesn't. Just for practicality as people aren't surrounded by monitors usually. No matter how you explain it, the motion and the view are not natural if the display doesn't hang in front of your eyes and display exactly the correct point of view to the spectator.
Which is why only HMD can ultimately solve the problem.
You are confusing again TrackIr and the applications that use it.
"So while trackir has the capability to do the same it doesn't." It does not, because the game calls for "exaggerated" movements. That Wii solution would have to use the very same method of movement scaling when playing AH. I can only once again assume the part of Mr. Broken record: Both that Wii and TIR are using the same technology, in the same way. The Wii only gives coordinates to whatever application is calling for it, and so does TrackIr.
"With trackir and current games the moment you move your head in x/y axis, you break the natural point of view and this leads to losing the wiimote guys effect. The view becomes like in the part where he displays how it looks through an outsiders eyes."
This is a typical misconception by someone who has never actually used a full TrackIr setup. It is simply not true. You don't lose the 3D effect. After a short adaption phase, it becomes natural. Your mind is perfectly capable of compensating that exaggeration. I do fly every day with my TIR and it's absolutely natural, fully 3D and I do not noticet that my movements are scaled in any way.
"No matter how you explain it, the motion and the view are not natural if the display doesn't hang in front of your eyes and display exactly the correct point of view to the spectator." [/B]
Isn't that the same with that Wii? Yes it is.
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When your perspective gets altered it's altered and no longer true. So when the applications call for this kind of thing you lose the point of view automatically. End of story.
The wiimote guys code is not applicable for game like AH directly, however it could be of some use tied to traditional method of view switching, leaving only the head tracking relative to the view seen at the time.
That would have very diminishing returns in a game like AH though. It takes game titles specially coded for head tracking to fully utilize this.
And as I repeatedly told you, TrackIR has the capability but practical applications do _not_ stick to true point of view because of the limitations of the display compared to the requirements of the game.
The HMD being therefore the only real solution in the end.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
When your perspective gets altered it's altered and no longer true. So when the applications call for this kind of thing you lose the point of view automatically. End of story.
Amazing. You don't use it yet you know how it feels using it. Even better than the ones using it...
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
And as I repeatedly told you, TrackIR has the capability but practical applications do _not_ stick to true point of view because of the limitations of the display compared to the requirements of the game.
The Wii solution is subject to the same limitations.
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The wiimote guys code is not applicable for game like AH directly, however it could be of some use tied to traditional method of view switching, leaving only the head tracking relative to the view seen at the time.
That would be just like a worse, old 2DOF version of TIR.
And again and again... the wiimote guys "code" is NOT different in any way.
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The difference between the wiiguys code and trackIR is that where trackir sells out the true POV and the immersion effect with it in order to be able to rotate your view outside the true display area, the wiiguy limits the viewer to the 'window' in order to remain truthful. You're right that the difference is in the code - but it's there.
You can only get less than 180 degree view with the wiiguys technology, which would be quite enough for 3D movies and specially crafted first person games. For simulations that is not quite enough even though it could be useful combined with traditional kind of view changing.
What you don't seem to understand is that they both use the same technique, the other just keeps it natural and TrackIR makes a huge compromise by the exaggeration of head movement. The view will switch similar to the wiiguys demonstration of outsiders point of view. The image still alters but it's not the correct point of view.
It's not possible Lusche, the screen should move with you if it was the correct pov once you move your eyes out of the bezel.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The difference between the wiiguys code and trackIR is that where trackir sells out the true POV and the immersion effect with it in order to be able to rotate your view outside the true display area, the wiiguy limits the viewer to the 'window' in order to remain truthful. You're right that the difference is in the code - but it's there..
It's not, because with a simple click I change the scaling from progressive to linear, and I have the same like "Wii-view".
The scaling is not hardwired. It's not compulsory. It's just a setting.
That developer (fascinating guy btw) simply choosed not to scale in that example - I can do the same with my TIR.
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Remember we've all seen trackir demonstration videos online and the breaking of the illusion is immediately viewable when the artificial tracking starts happening. The illusion breaks the moment the viewer stops looking dead forward and the move boosting code moves your point of view to where it isn't.
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Originally posted by Lusche
It's not, because with a simple click I change the scaling from progressive to linear, and I have the same like "Wii-view".
The scaling is not hardwired. It's not compulsory. It's just a setting.
That developer (fascinating guy btw) simply choosed not to scale in that example - I can do the same with my TIR.
Ok so now we're getting on the same page. What I'm trying to say here is that once you tick that scaling on - you're not in the wiiguys world anymore.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Remember we've all seen trackir demonstration videos online and the breaking of the illusion is immediately viewable when the artificial tracking starts happening. The illusion breaks the moment the viewer stops looking dead forward and the move boosting code moves your point of view to where it isn't.
That's the point - you did only see online vids. You don't use it. I do. Yet YOU do tell me the illusion is breaking...
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Originally posted by Lusche
That's the point - you did only see online vids. You don't use it. I do. Yet YOU do tell me the illusion is breaking...
Ooh boy.. please explain to me why the illusion never broke in the wiiguys display and why it breaks in every TrackIR demo I've seen.
Edit: I just figured it out. The demos are made with wrong technology i.e. the tracking device is not connected to the camera as the videos are captured directly ingame. This is a major problem for TrackIR marketing department by the way.. They make their product look bad.
Still the artificial scaling can't produce a trueful image. It just can't. Maybe you get used to it - but it's still not natural.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Ooh boy.. please explain to me why the illusion never broke in the wiiguys display and why it breaks in every TrackIR demo I've seen.
You have only seen them on your screen via internet - You haven't done it.
Also he is using a carfully selected image which is (from a cognitive psychological point of view) much better suited to "fool" (not meant negatively by me" the viewer. And he is using limited movements only, which are more convincing when seeing it on the internet.
If I had the same screen and picture, I could film myself using TIR and you would say "wow!" ;)
I just wonder why you don't believe me (and countless other users) when telling you I have full immersion?
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Maybe you get used to it - but it's still not natural.
That's true, but it's more a philosophical question as long as you don't notice it. :D
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
the tracking device is not connected to the camera as the videos are captured directly ingame. This is a major problem for TrackIR marketing department by the way.
LOL
if you connect the Trackir to a camera and walk around with it
you would have 100% the same effect like in the video. Maybe Lusche
could do a small vid with exsactly this?
Like i said before, this looks interesting, but using it this way is not
usefull to a racing game or flightsim (talk about Trackir marketing *g*). Connecting the wii controller
lets say to your breast, i can imagine playing lightgun games, wherer
you have to really duck, jump and/or move around in front of the TV.
but connecting the Trackir to the breast you have the same effect.
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This Track IR seems really natural for me.
Click image for an example of TIR at work.
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Paradigm%20Poster.jpg) (http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Paradigm.zip)
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That video provided no illusion of actually sitting in the cockpit it just panned the view around very two dimensionally. This is because it doesn't hold the true point of view i.e. you didn't have the tracker affixed to your camera.
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MrRiplEy[H] its fixed to your own Eyes, so you get the full effect.
connecting to a camera is just to show others what effect you get
using tracking hardware.
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Maybe this 7 second ostwind clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1leyHEDh2o0) (I mentioned it earlier in this thread, so might have seen it) gives a marginally better impression. Watch the Ostwind sight.
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Exactly but the videos that are captured in-game are filmed from the wrong POV so the effect is gone.
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Thanks all. I don't understand any of the technical stuff but I sure like the 3D effect no matter how it's achieved.
I'll probably have to wait as usual until a real simple inexpensive general jazzy 3D immersion thingie eventually emerges for us drooling masses.
:confused:
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track ir works fine for everything but the 6 view
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Originally posted by Halo
Thanks all. I don't understand any of the technical stuff but I sure like the 3D effect no matter how it's achieved.
I'll probably have to wait as usual until a real simple inexpensive general jazzy 3D immersion thingie eventually emerges for us drooling masses.
:confused:
Well it's not really 3D immersion :)
You can buy a 3D VR Headset that will work nicely with AH for US$399 ( http://www.vr920.com ). Using the glovepie utility it emulates trackir, and provides a 3D stereoscopic view of the AH world :) . The res is so so, but my headset (an emagin z800) only runs 800x600 and I find that a comfortable resolution in 3D (also keeps the frame rates high in 3d stereo mode).