Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GFShill on December 26, 2007, 10:00:28 PM
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Someone had once posted the top fighters in kill/death a looooong time ago, before the proliferation of Spitfire, 109, and Corsair subtypes. Just curious to see if it is a particular variant of Spitfire, because in my opinion the Spitfire Mk VIII is the top knight of the skies, and I'm curious as to how close the LA-7 and N1K are in the mix.
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Spitfire's, as well as P51, N1K and other rides with a lot of usage are far from being #1 in K/D ratios.
Undisputed #1 is Tempest , followed by usual suspects like 262, 163, F4U-C and -4, Hurricane II, Typhoon, 109K.
First Spit's usually to be found > rank # 20, with La7 & N1K not being that much better.
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Honestly, I think the 262 and 163 shouldn't be counted in that list.
The F4U-1A is also in the Top 20, IIRC. I think that puts more Hog variants in the top end of the k/d range than any other type with multiple models.
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well the temp is the fastest prop plane. as far as k/d death goes the spit16 and temp are the best. the spit16 is better then the spit8 in almost all ways. the spit8 just gets more gas.
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it would be nice to see some Info to back these thoughts up.
i think the yak is up there too
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Originally posted by DmonSlyr
well the temp is the fastest prop plane. as far as k/d death goes the spit16 and temp are the best. the spit16 is better then the spit8 in almost all ways. the spit8 just gets more gas.
ehhh
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Originally posted by DoNKeY
ehhh
ditto
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Originally posted by DmonSlyr
as far as k/d death goes the spit16 and temp are the best.
You never cared to actually look up the numbers, didn't you?
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The best fighter in this game is the one you know the best...
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Top 10 K/D last 6 months:
Chute 2520.00
Ship Gunner 247.85
Tempest 6.18
Me 262 5.81
Me 163B 5.71
Tiger I 3.45
F4U-1C 2.58
F4U-4 2.54
Gunner 1.79
Sherman VC 1.64
Fighters only:
Tempest 6.20
Me 262 1.00
Me 163B 4.57
F4U-1C 2.20
F4U-4 2.67
Typhoon IB 4
Hurricane Mk IIC 4
Bf 109K-4 3.8
Ki-84-Ia 1.625
Fw 190D-9 3.2
Non-perk fighters only:
Typhoon IB 1.53
Hurricane Mk IIC 1.47
Bf 109K-4 1.46
Ki-84-Ia 1.38
Fw 190D-9 1.33
P-38J 1.32
Ki-61 1.32
F4U-1A 1.32
A-20G 1.27
P-47-D25 1.27
Fw 190A-5 1.24
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Top 10 K/D last 6 months:
Fighters only:
Tempest 6.20
Me 262 1.00
Me 163B 4.57
F4U-1C 2.20
F4U-4 2.67
Typhoon IB 4
Hurricane Mk IIC 4
Bf 109K-4 3.8
Ki-84-Ia 1.625
Fw 190D-9 3.2
Something went wrong with cut&paste.. the planes are ranked correctly, but the k/d values of the second half are not. ;)
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Originally posted by Lusche
Spitfire's, as well as P51, N1K and other rides with a lot of usage are far from being #1 in K/D ratios.
Undisputed #1 is Tempest , followed by usual suspects like 262, 163, F4U-C and -4, Hurricane II, Typhoon, 109K.
First Spit's usually to be found > rank # 20, with La7 & N1K not being that much better.
I know he asked for the #1 plane, but the kill death ratio has little to do with how good a plane is, it's rather whom is flying it. K/D also IMO doesn't show what the best plane in the game is by any means. The better planes tend to be flown a lot by noobs which kill the stats on K/D.
Look at LA7's for instance, if flown in the right hands it's likely one of the best planes in the game. However because every noob and his brother flys it, well it's K/D likely sucks.
The reason spits are down in the 20's with the LA7's is the same reason, every noob and their brother fly them. Put a spit in the hands of a good pilot and it's a great plane. Far better than the #20s.
Then look at the K-4's on the list.. I don't think the K-4 is all the ubber and it's pretty damn hard to kill with it. Yet it's ranked top 10 because a lot of good sticks fly them.
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Originally posted by crockett
I know he asked for the #1 plane, but the kill death ratio has little to do with how good a plane is, it's rather whom is flying it.
That may be, but he specifically mentioned K/D in his post. ;)
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There are no "best fighters", only "Best Pilots."
Someday I want to be one...
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Originally posted by DmonSlyr
well the temp is the fastest prop plane.
The P-47N is the fastest prop plane in the game. Second fastest is the Ta 152. Third: Bf 109K-4. Fourth: Spitfire XIV. Fifth: P-51D.
I believe the Tempest is in the top 10 somewhere, but not in the top 5.
Deck speed on the other hand...
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Originally posted by Lusche
Something went wrong with cut&paste.. the planes are ranked correctly, but the k/d values of the second half are not. ;)
Oops. Forgot to drag the K/D w/the plane. Oh well, not doing it again. :)
[EDIT] Oops again, I also left the A20 in the non-perk fighters list.
[EDIT] OK, I lied... I re-did it:
Fighters only:
Tempest 6.18
Me 262 5.81
Me 163B 5.71
F4U-1C 2.58
F4U-4 2.54
Typhoon IB 1.53
Hurricane Mk IIC 1.47
Bf 109K-4 1.46
Ki-84-Ia 1.38
Fw 190D-9 1.33
Non-perk FIGHTERS only:
Typhoon IB 1.53
Hurricane Mk IIC 1.47
Bf 109K-4 1.46
Ki-84-Ia 1.38
Fw 190D-9 1.33
P-38J 1.32
Ki-61 1.32
F4U-1A 1.32
P-47-D25 1.27
Fw 190A-5 1.24
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Originally posted by Viking
The P-47N is the fastest prop plane in the game. Second fastest is the Ta 152. Third: Bf 109K-4. Fourth: Spitfire XIV. Fifth: P-51D.
I believe the Tempest is in the top 10 somewhere, but not in the top 5.
Deck speed on the other hand...
The F4U-4 edges out the 109K for third fastest. 453 mph at 26,700 feet. The P-51B is faster than the D, 443 mph vs 441 mph. Nonetheless, your point is well taken. The Tempest is only the fastest at sea level, and at 16,000 feet, the P-51B and Fw 190D-9 are equal in speed to the Tempest.
My regards,
Widewing
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You are right of course; I always seem to forget the -4 for some reason.
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Originally posted by Viking
The P-47N is the fastest prop plane in the game. Second fastest is the Ta 152. Third: Bf 109K-4. Fourth: Spitfire XIV. Fifth: P-51D.
I believe the Tempest is in the top 10 somewhere, but not in the top 5.
Deck speed on the other hand...
P-47N is not fastest, only at Alt it can sustain it with wep on, however F4u-4 can match the P47N at alt without Wep on.
Tempest on other hand is like the F4u-4, has a very nice blend of acceleration and sea level speed that makes it the fastest, along with an empty Typhoon can be pretty darn fast on the deck as well. Speed alone is just a factor, P-51B is probably top 5 as fastest on the deck but guns wise I doubt it will ever hold a high k/d ratio
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Originally posted by GFShill
because in my opinion the Spitfire Mk VIII is the top knight of the skies
Well, nothing that can be called "top" in the skies is a knight
KIDDING
Best planes: F4U-4
That is all
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Originally posted by Adonai
P-47N is not fastest, only at Alt it can sustain it with wep on, however F4u-4 can match the P47N at alt without Wep on.
I don't know what you're trying to say here, but at 470+ mph at 30k (probably faster at higher alt) the P-47N is clearly the fastest (unless the Ta 152 overtakes the P-47N at higher alts, no data available).
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Viking, the point is that there are never any fights at 30k ft in the lwma. You really want to be at 20k ft or higher before the P-47N starts to outshine its rivals.
On the deck a lot of the mediocre aircraft can run down the P-47N without too much difficulty, which makes your statement misleading, because what really counts for the arenas is the best IAS, not TAS. Fwiw, I rarely see P-47N's in the arenas, but I do see a few D-models because of the perk points.
Of the non-perked aircraft, I see more Spit 16's than anything else.
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Originally posted by Viking
I don't know what you're trying to say here, but at 470+ mph at 30k (probably faster at higher alt) the P-47N is clearly the fastest (unless the Ta 152 overtakes the P-47N at higher alts, no data available).
the TA-152 best preforms at 48,000 feet at if i remember right 496 MPH i would have to look it up tomorrow
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Originally posted by Viking
I don't know what you're trying to say here, but at 470+ mph at 30k (probably faster at higher alt) the P-47N is clearly the fastest (unless the Ta 152 overtakes the P-47N at higher alts, no data available).
incorrect.
Performance of the P-47N-5-RE included a maximum speed of 397 mph at 10,000 feet, 448 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 460 mph at 30,000 feet
Me-109k14 had top speed 470mph at 30k as reported in few flight tests
Ta-152 Maximum speed: 759 km/h at 12,500 m using GM-1 boost (472 mph at 41,000 ft using GM-1 boost)
Now this is using hi-octane fuel at those alts as well, as fuel declined in germany the planes wern't getting those speeds as on paper due to cheaper refinement of the fuel. Even at those speeds your never clearing doing 460 or 472 unless some how you plan on chasing a plane down even then i'd give Ta-152 a win over P47N at those alts (from a few fights myself in FSO and Snapshots)
if Do-335 would of been in service in 1945 to combat the P47N it would clearly match the P47N in speed easily at 480mph at 30k
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Originally posted by Adonai
incorrect.
Performance of the P-47N-5-RE included a maximum speed of 397 mph at 10,000 feet, 448 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 460 mph at 30,000 feet
Me-109k14 had top speed 470mph at 30k as reported in few flight tests
Ta-152 Maximum speed: 759 km/h at 12,500 m using GM-1 boost (472 mph at 41,000 ft using GM-1 boost)
Now this is using hi-octane fuel at those alts as well, as fuel declined in germany the planes wern't getting those speeds as on paper due to cheaper refinement of the fuel. Even at those speeds your never clearing doing 460 or 472 unless some how you plan on chasing a plane down even then i'd give Ta-152 a win over P47N at those alts (from a few fights myself in FSO and Snapshots)
if Do-335 would of been in service in 1945 to combat the P47N it would clearly match the P47N in speed easily at 480mph at 30k
getem boy getem
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Rawr kilz
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Originally posted by Adonai
incorrect.
Performance of the P-47N-5-RE included a maximum speed of 397 mph at 10,000 feet, 448 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 460 mph at 30,000 feet
Me-109k14 had top speed 470mph at 30k as reported in few flight tests
Ta-152 Maximum speed: 759 km/h at 12,500 m using GM-1 boost (472 mph at 41,000 ft using GM-1 boost)
Now this is using hi-octane fuel at those alts as well, as fuel declined in germany the planes wern't getting those speeds as on paper due to cheaper refinement of the fuel. Even at those speeds your never clearing doing 460 or 472 unless some how you plan on chasing a plane down even then i'd give Ta-152 a win over P47N at those alts (from a few fights myself in FSO and Snapshots)
if Do-335 would of been in service in 1945 to combat the P47N it would clearly match the P47N in speed easily at 480mph at 30k
You seem to be arguing about real-life performance ... in a thread about a game. Get some perspective.
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Viking, the point is that there are never any fights at 30k ft in the lwma. You really want to be at 20k ft or higher before the P-47N starts to outshine its rivals.
On the deck a lot of the mediocre aircraft can run down the P-47N without too much difficulty, which makes your statement misleading, because what really counts for the arenas is the best IAS, not TAS. Fwiw, I rarely see P-47N's in the arenas, but I do see a few D-models because of the perk points.
Of the non-perked aircraft, I see more Spit 16's than anything else.
Altitude was not a consideration in the original premise.
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Originally posted by Viking
You seem to be arguing about real-life performance ... in a thread about a game. Get some perspective.
Actually if the games historically accurate, your list of planes that are fastest would be incorrect. Im not arguing just helping you get the facts correct
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This thread is about the planes in this game, and how they perform in this game. If you have any complaints or grievances to the accuracy of the game I suggest you make your own thread, preferably in the Aircraft and Vehicle forum.
I don't really care how these planes performed in real life 60+ years ago. It is pretty irrelevant.
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Originally posted by Viking
This thread is about the planes in this game, and how they perform in this game. If you have any complaints or grievances to the accuracy of the game I suggest you make your own thread, preferably in the Aircraft and Vehicle forum.
I don't really care how these planes performed in real life 60+ years ago. It is pretty irrelevant.
Isn't game based on how planes performed 60+ years ago?
If it was irrelevant we would see Tie Fighters in this game. Actually more like having Do-335's and other planes didn't see service.
If you have any complaints or grievances to the accuracy of the game I suggest you make your own thread
lol?
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It is irrelevant to this discussion and the intention of this thread.
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Originally posted by Adonai
Isn't game based on how planes performed 60+ years ago?
Loosely perhaps: if it was then most people wouldn't be able to successfully fly let alone land these planes. It is a game.
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Yep cartoon planes where people can hit tree's and re-up 5 seconds later.
Or better yet, Sheep that can stop a 56 ton tank.
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Originally posted by 2fly
There are no "best fighters", only "Best Pilots."
Someday I want to be one...
So do I...
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Huh, no YakU in the list? All those nubs who fly the great plane and pork the stats -(
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Originally posted by Adonai
Rawr kilz
Adonai my sheep Rawr better then that give me something better or to the curb with you.
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Of the non-perked aircraft, I see more Spit 16's than anything else.
Because you maybe see them more of a threat than the P-51D, which has both more kills & more deaths each tour.
But as most people tend to lump all Spitfires together: The "Spit" icon is of course the most numerous one in the arenas. All the different Spitfires added together have a total 18.5% of all kills & deaths.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Top 10 K/D last 6 months:
Chute 2520.00
Ship Gunner 247.85
Tempest 6.18
Me 262 5.81
Me 163B 5.71
Tiger I 3.45
F4U-1C 2.58
F4U-4 2.54
Gunner 1.79
Sherman VC 1.64
Fighters only:
Tempest 6.20
Me 262 1.00
Me 163B 4.57
F4U-1C 2.20
F4U-4 2.67
Typhoon IB 4
Hurricane Mk IIC 4
Bf 109K-4 3.8
Ki-84-Ia 1.625
Fw 190D-9 3.2
Non-perk fighters only:
Typhoon IB 1.53
Hurricane Mk IIC 1.47
Bf 109K-4 1.46
Ki-84-Ia 1.38
Fw 190D-9 1.33
P-38J 1.32
Ki-61 1.32
F4U-1A 1.32
A-20G 1.27
P-47-D25 1.27
Fw 190A-5 1.24
You forgot the number one and two killers in the game
#1 ground
#2 trees
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This thread is about the planes in this game, and how they perform in this game. If you have any complaints or grievances to the accuracy of the game I suggest you make your own thread, preferably in the Aircraft and Vehicle forum.
I don't really care how these planes performed in real life 60+ years ago. It is pretty irrelevant.
It is supposed to be that this game is based on the actual performances and FM that so many people think there is superb, and I have no reason to argue them. Other than that there is no reason to play this game.
If you not interested in RL plane performances why do you play this game? Most of the people here they play because they like WWII fighters and I think it’s their right to do, if you may.
If you don’t want to play with people that like WWII fighters try something else like Battlefield 1942, or a Nintendo or a PS.
You won’t fell the difference anyway
PS if you are not interested about planes that were 60+ years ago why do you want the ME 410 in the game? And what exactly Me 410 do you want. The one that is based on the actual performance or an Me 410 that is based on HT imagination?
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There really isnt a single answer since the pilot makes the plane "shine". A good pilot can make the most of an "ordinary" plane and a great stick makes anything he's in "uber".
So I'd say the following 3 planes stand out (perked or not)....
#1) Hurricane
The "average" pilot views the game as a "dogfight" and the hurricane combines exceptional "2-D" capability with high leathality. Put anyone in a hurricane and they become somewhat dangerous...
#2) Tempest
Again for the avergae pilot we have firepower and speed, for the above average pilot a tremendous low alt E fighter (where most of the "action" is)
#3) 109K
above someone posted the "K" was a "poor" plane chosen by good pilots or something to that effect. Actually the K is probably the single most formidable plane in the game in a non scenario element. It simply requires a good pilot that understands how to use it.
Accordingly if I see a hurricane I worry about the 20mm...
If I see a tempest I worry about getting picked and if I see a 109K I just worry....
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It really depends on who your asking but over all in the game i would say the tempest.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
It really depends on who your asking but over all in the game i would say the tempest.
Naw... Tempest meets F4U-4 Co-E, Co-Alt... Tempest is dead in short order.. Unless it runs away.
The best overall fighter is the F4U-4. Great speed, acceleration and climb. Superior handling and will easily out-turn any of its late-war competitors. Plus, it can carry 2k in bombs, + 8 rockets and operate from a carrier. Nothing else compares.
Think about this: On the deck, 1v1, the Tempest cannot beat the La-7 given equal pilots. On the other hand, the La-7 can barely hang with the F4U-4.
Urchin and I did some comparison duels with the La-7 and F4U-4. While the La-7 holds its own initially, as the fight slows down, the F4U-4 takes command (those marvelous flaps).
Climb to 10k and the La-7 is clearly much over-matched.
My regards,
Widewing
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I was suprised the mossies not anywhere on the list....
Looking at just this months raw numbers a couple of things really suprised me.....
1) Looking at a few of the well known rides the "leading" model isnt the "best" one...
Spit VIII 0.9442 vs Spit IX 1.1243 [spit XVI 1.0959]
P-38L 0.7951 vs P-38J 1.4710
P-47N 0.7902 vs P-47D25 1.531
190D-9 1.3574 vs 190A-5 1.3915
I left the 109 off since it's not clear cut with all but the E holding up well and even the E doing much better then the spitI or P-40B etc...as a "cult" ride:D the 109 attracts a "better" overall class of pilots I think...{actually within the scope of the airwar as presented in AH its a very good plane} with the F being a greatly under appreciated killer...
Here are the random things that really stood out to me....
The 190A-5 has a significantly better k/d ratio then EVERY spitfire (so does the A-20:aok )
The 109K, 152 and Tiffie (in that order) are the top 3 non perk k/d ratio birds...
The 190A-5 has better numbers then the hurricane and La-7 as well....
So I draw the following conclusions based on the raw data....
1st and formost as I always have said the A-20 is as good as any fighter:aok :rofl since it beats all the spitties the hurricane and the la-7.
More seriously however good pilots have favorite rides...
The F4U-1a, P-47-D25, 190A-5 and P-38J & SpitIX clearly stand out. your statistically more likely to be facing "baron von uber" then "the bonnie noob" when you meet one.
Also the A-20 appears to attract a better class of pilots then the Mossie or 110's since the numbers are so skewed [A-20 1.4, 110G 0.64, Mossie ~1.0]
Obviously to some degree the lower numbers on some planes reflect the Jabo lemming role to a degree while planes with low use have numbers skewed as well [moot, ww etc in 152 this tour?]
Overall my biggest suprise is the mossie having such low numbers. Even with Jabo/gv hunting I'd expect it to have numbers on par or higher then the A-20 given its speed/firepower advantage....
*** at edit ***
I left the hogs out above for same reason as the 109's, only suprise was the poor numbers for the D and the fact that the C actually has better numbers then the -4
While I certainly cant disagree that the -4 hog is easily the best fighter in the game (prop or jet IMO) it isnt readily usable by even a "better" pilot IMO. The strengths are formidable but subtle since its as much in the combo of "slow speed" & power/acceleration" as raw speed or firepower. IMO most sticks fair worse in the -4 then in a tempest la-7 or other ride unless they fly the other hogs reasonably well....
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Originally posted by Adonai
P-47N is not fastest, only at Alt it can sustain it with wep on, however F4u-4 can match the P47N at alt without Wep on.
Tempest on other hand is like the F4u-4, has a very nice blend of acceleration and sea level speed that makes it the fastest, along with an empty Typhoon can be pretty darn fast on the deck as well. Speed alone is just a factor, P-51B is probably top 5 as fastest on the deck but guns wise I doubt it will ever hold a high k/d ratio
Max speed at 30K...
P-47N: 476 mph WEP/436 mph MIL
F4U-4: 445 mph WEP or MIL (at 30k, there's no MAP boost using WEP)
On the deck, the P-51B is not among the fastest, able to reach only 358 mph. In comparison, the 109K-4 can do 368 (as can the P-51D), with the F4U-4 doing 376 mph, P-47N at 366 mph, and the Tempest doing 387 mph.
The P-51B shines at middle altitudes and very high altitudes.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by humble
Obviously to some degree the lower numbers on some planes reflect the Jabo lemming role to a degree while planes with low use have numbers skewed as well [moot, ww etc in 152 this tour?]
A clear yes. I guess the recent discussion on Ta-152's FM has made a few of the better, more analytical sticks to take her up for a few sorties, resulting in a better K/D:
Ta152 K/D
Tour 91 - 1.06
Tour 92 - 1.19
Tour 93 - 1.22
Tour 94 - 0.995 (!)
Tour 95 - 1.57
Two players alone were able to boost the TA-152 k/d by app. 0.25...
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Originally posted by Widewing
Max speed at 30K...
P-47N: 476 mph WEP/436 mph MIL
F4U-4: 445 mph WEP or MIL (at 30k, there's no MAP boost using WEP)
On the deck, the P-51B is not among the fastest, able to reach only 358 mph. In comparison, the 109K-4 can do 368 (as can the P-51D), with the F4U-4 doing 376 mph, P-47N at 366 mph, and the Tempest doing 387 mph.
The P-51B shines at middle altitudes and very high altitudes.
My regards,
Widewing
ahh I couldn't remember if it was P-51B or not heard someone tested it to best top 3 on the deck (without perks) so leaving out F4u-4 and tempest, would be La7, P51-D P51-B ?
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There really isnt a single answer since the pilot makes the plane "shine". A good pilot can make the most of an "ordinary" plane and a great stick makes anything he's in "uber".
I agree, I flew variety of planes and I believe I would shine in a Fw190 but been willing to understand the 109 more and more I fly it, so far my K/D has done nothing but risen since i been flying my primary 2 birds.
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Originally posted by Adonai
ahh I couldn't remember if it was P-51B or not heard someone tested it to best top 3 on the deck (without perks) so leaving out F4u-4 and tempest, would be La7, P51-D P51-B ?
La-7, 190D, Typhoon, P51D & 109K, P-47N, Ta-152H, Spit XIV, F4U-1 & P-51B
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Back in November, I did some 40k speed runs comparing the Ta 152 and P-47N.
At 40,000 feet, the Ta 152 could reach 453 mph. That's mighty fast. However, the P-47N was able to attain 462 mph. The 152 required WEP, but the P-47N was above FTH, so WEP provided no increase in power.
Adding to the difference was the far superior acceleration and climb of the P-47N above 30k. The 152 required a 50 mile run to reach max speed from 400 mph, but the P-47 needed just 30 miles (and was 9 mph faster). Maneuvering was tested subjectively. I found the Jug far more stable and a much better turner, especially as it could utilize flaps very easily and efficiently.
At 450 mph @ 40k, I executed a zoom climb in each. The P-47's greater mass carried it about 1,000 feet higher.
From 43,000 feet, I dived each to its maximum speed. In Mach, the results were:
Ta 152: 0.88 Mach
P-47N: 0.91 Mach
Both recovered without drama using trim tabs.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Lusche
La-7, 190D, Typhoon, P51D & 109K, P-47N, Ta-152H, Spit XIV, F4U-1 & P-51B
You can add the F4U-1A at 366 mph, a dead heat with the P-47N.
My regards,
Widewing