Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Fencer51 on December 26, 2007, 10:49:52 PM
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"Double Black Chevron" flown by Hauptmann Herbert Kutscha, Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 11 circa February 1945.
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_1.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_2.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_3.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_4.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_5.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_6.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_7.jpg)
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you may be my new best friend...virtually of course :aok
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Excellent work as usual.
My only nit-picks would be:
- The exhaust discolouring on the fuselage looks too uniformly curved.
- The left fuselage doesn't seem to have the correct hand and foot ports for the pilot.
Eg: As in this film (24 seconds, Youtube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR-Fdr9LE10)
I look forward to using this one, Fencer, those upper-wing surfaces look fantastic.
Thanks mate.
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Fencer-
Really appreciate you doing all these skins for JG11. So I hate to make any comment, other than thanks, but...
I really believe that this A-8 is not just Gray. Judging from the only picture I have of this particular craft, starting at where the canopy joins the windscreen, the color changes from gray to a greenish brown (again, I'm not sure of the color number). I've examined the picture under normal and artificial lighting and I'm almost positive of it.
I will try and get a good scan of the picture tomorrow and post it here. Hopefully it will show what I am talking about.
Regardless.... for taking the time, and putting forth the effort you have for producing the skins for our Gruppe!
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Originally posted by Xasthur
- The left fuselage doesn't seem to have the correct hand and foot ports for the pilot.
It has the two that the guy uses to board the a/c, and what is shown on every line drawing I have, photos and profiles.
Yee gods we are using Youtube for a reference now. What's next? GI Combat comics?
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Originally posted by Angrist
Fencer-
Really appreciate you doing all these skins for JG11. So I hate to make any comment, other than thanks, but...
I really believe that this A-8 is not just Gray. Judging from the only picture I have of this particular craft, starting at where the canopy joins the windscreen, the color changes from gray to a greenish brown (again, I'm not sure of the color number). I've examined the picture under normal and artificial lighting and I'm almost positive of it.
If it is the profile from Aircraft of the Aces #6, don't bother. I have that book. I have scanned it in myself and the scan looks brown all over but it definately is grey in the book. There are numerous other planes on that page and the previous one with the same grey color. I can see no differentation showing any greenish hue.
If you have an actual photo let's see it.
[edit] And I need to redo the wear on the wings, that does not look right.
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Originally posted by killnu
you may be my new best friend...virtually of course :aok
My life is complete when I make Killnu and Greebo happy with my skins in one week. :aok
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Originally posted by Fencer51
It has the two that the guy uses to board the a/c, and what is shown on every line drawing I have, photos and profiles.
Yee gods we are using Youtube for a reference now. What's next? GI Combat comics?
I'm not trying to give you a hard time. Whilst youtube may well be a poor reference can you really dispute the nature of this clip? It's actual wartime footage... Can there be any greater resource than that?
I just can't see the foot-hole, that's all.
Like I said, it was just a suggestion, not an attempt to detract from your work, which I have always praised and shown appreciation for.
[Edit] You're right, I thought I saw a second grab point on the actual fuselage when in fact there is just one... the hand-hold which you have illustrated. He is obviously standing on the retractable foot-peg initially. My apologies.
My point stands, I wasn't trying to detract from your work at all and in this case, Youtube has proved to be a decisive reference.
What about the exhaust burns?
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With the exhaust, you will see what I mean in this picture. The exhaust has stained a portion just above the black/white outline area right back along the fuselage rather than in a curved line such as in your skin. A small detail but a detail nonetheless. I mean this in no other way than a constructive criticism.
(http://www.tgplanes.com/fwpips.jpg)
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Not every smoke stain was the same. I have photos of 190s without smoke stains. But people expect them to be there, so I put one on it. I will play with it some more.
As to YouTube, I should have put a smiley after it. Sorry did not mean to indicate your assistance was unappreciated.
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Of course, it would be impossible for them all to be the same. To my eye your exhaust stain suggests the engine being run whilst the aircraft is stationary more than when it was actually in flight, which would seem to be unlikely.
I read to much into the post, I can see that you were just joking around, my apologies.
In any case, my point with the exhaust is that I would expect the exhaust to be blown out more. Air flow would push the exhaust heat back out into a more steadily declining line along the fuselage, if you get what I mean.
More like a 45 degree decline rather than an exponential decline.
Maybe even try lightening it right up and make it appear as though the aircraft is new from the factory? Nothing dictates that all skins need be battle-hardened and severly weathered. That could be interesting.
Just some food for thought...
Regards,
-Arch
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Originally posted by Fencer51
If it is the profile from Aircraft of the Aces #6, don't bother. I have that book. I have scanned it in myself and the scan looks brown all over but it definately is grey in the book. There are numerous other planes on that page and the previous one with the same grey color. I can see no differentation showing any greenish hue.
If you have an actual photo let's see it.
[edit] And I need to redo the wear on the wings, that does not look right.
Yes, that is the profile I'm referring too. Didn't appear solid grey to me, but I'll bow to your knoiwledge on this.
Anyhow...thanks again
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What about profiles 2, 3 and 6 ? Do you see green there? They are the same basic upper color.
Lets see what ya got, I want it right, but I have done everything but examine it under a microscope! >G<
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Originally posted by Fencer51
What about profiles 2, 3 and 6 ? Do you see green there? They are the same basic upper color.
Lets see what ya got, I want it right, but I have done everything but examine it under a microscope! >G<
Profile #2: 190 A-8 of 7./JG1
-Yes, it appears to change to a mottled Greenish Brown over the Grey at about the same point as Profile #7, generally where the sliding canopy meets the windscreen.
Profiles #3 & 6: 190 D-9's of JG3 and 6
-Both of these appear to be a solid grey (much like what you have modeled on the JG11 A-8 here)
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Stupid Question Time.
How old is your book? Mine is from 1996.
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Originally posted by Fencer51
Stupid Question Time.
How old is your book? Mine is from 1996.
Well, this is actually Stampf's book I am looking at, but the last reprint date in it is 2001.
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One other difference I just noticed....
Your spinner is a solid yellow and black, where as the picture I have it is black w/ offset yellow circle?
Just for Reference sake...here is what I am looking at. The difference in color of the grey in Profile 6, and the color of the A-8 you are doing in profile 7 is noticable here. This is a very clean scan, and exactly as the book appears.
(http://xs122.xs.to/xs122/07524/scan.jpg)
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The spinner is that way due to wrapping issues with the mapping. Its either solid yellow or nothing.
That is either a 74/75/76 scheme or a 81/75/76 scheme. The RLM colors of LW planes are open to debate. You can check 6 resources and get 6 different colors for any specific RLM color. It is either a grey or a grey brown. I am not even sure they did a 81/75/76 scheme.
Your CO said he would prefer the 74/75/76 version so that is what I went with.
[edit] Check your forum for a RLM sheet.
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Fair enough:aok
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I'm not a fan of the weathering. The exhausts look too much like a pattern and curve down too steeply, and the foot scuffs just don't do it for me. I also have trouble in the scuff marks area. It takes a lot of work to get it looking "right."
Also, you have 2 halves of the spinner. It doesn't stretch as much as it sandwitches both halves together. Both halves are mirror images of the bitmap you have to work with (it takes whatever you have and applies it to both sides). What you do is you put in the stripe, like the default has, only it doesn't truly spiral. It is like a lop-sided ring. When spinning, and when viewing from 1 side, it gives the illusion of a spiral.
Previous skin spiral spinners:
From an angle that helps the illusion:
http://www.netaces.org/skins/190a8/skin1.jpg
Breaking the illusion, but still not so bad (you can see where it bends back around):
http://www.netaces.org/skins/190a8/skin4.jpg
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Per Xasthur I have redone the exhaust. Did a few other things and added some more stencils as well.
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_8.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_9.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_10.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_11.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_12.jpg)
(http://www.4thfg.org/Fencer/JG11_A8_13.jpg)
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Fencer I see only that one pic with a small portion of the top of the exhaust stain, for reference. Correct me if I'm off base here, but why would exhaust stain mottle like you've done it? Wouldn't it be more of a streak? It's like it's been sponge-patterened the way kids dab at paper with paint on a sponge.
Like the airflow of the exhaust either stains the fuselage or doesn't at all, the terminator is really sharp for airflow.
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^-- what he said. Better, but still needs teaking.
A minor point, but a highly visible one:
Looking at the photo of the men stepping down from (or is it "up to?") the plane, you can see the darker color by the canopy, and a lighter shade by the cowling/MGs.
It's got grey/grey on the wings, it would have a continuation of this camo on the upper surfaces. The same shades. It would follow basic patterns along the spine, but with 2 colors (rarely ever solid grey, just from what I've seen)
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I was very sleepy when I wrote that. It should read
"It looks like the airflow of the exhaust either stains the fuselage, or doesn't at all. The terminator is really sharp for something made by airflow."
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The exhaust in the first shot looks fantastic.
The way the lighting softens it a bit, I think that's perfect.
:aok
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Originally posted by moot
Fencer I see only that one pic with a small portion of the top of the exhaust stain, for reference. Correct me if I'm off base here, but why would exhaust stain mottle like you've done it? Wouldn't it be more of a streak? It's like it's been sponge-patterened the way kids dab at paper with paint on a sponge.
Like the airflow of the exhaust either stains the fuselage or doesn't at all, the terminator is really sharp for airflow.
Thanks for the input. Please refer to Luftwaffe Colours Volume 5 Section 3 and others of that series. I am happy that the exhaust matches that shown in several photos in style and "kids dab at paper" inplementation.
Cheers.
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Oh, Fencer, nice job on fixing the prop spinner.
The half spiral looks great. Well done.
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Originally posted by Krusty
^-- what he said. Better, but still needs teaking.
A minor point, but a highly visible one:
Looking at the photo of the men stepping down from (or is it "up to?") the plane, you can see the darker color by the canopy, and a lighter shade by the cowling/MGs.
It's got grey/grey on the wings, it would have a continuation of this camo on the upper surfaces. The same shades. It would follow basic patterns along the spine, but with 2 colors (rarely ever solid grey, just from what I've seen)
That would be a great point, if the photo was of the plane in question.
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I don't have that book. Having it, I thought you'd say why it looked so different than other fluid stains on aircraft.
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If it's not, I'm sorry. I thought it was.
EDIT: Other than the one profile shown, what are you using as references? I am highly skeptical that the upper surface was all one color. I could be wrong, but nothing the LW did suggested they'd just use a single grey for the top of the spine (so you see my knee-jerk reflexes are kicking in here)
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Maybe it's not that strange after all..
http://warbirddepot.com/images/gallery/Reno07/1_Brown/RNOdf_1589-1280.jpg
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I'm not sure what a restored warbird pic of an F-7F has to do with 190s... but okay.
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Looks great Ken. Can't wait to get her up! :aok
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The exhaust stain marks have sharp terminators and mottle-like clump patterns.