Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: crockett on December 27, 2007, 06:24:32 AM
-
In California, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has just won approval from legislators for a major health-care reform which will expand coverage to most of the state's uninsured.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7157980.stm
I bet Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave and I'm quite sure Newt Gingrich will commit suicide if Arnold is successful. Larz will likely have a heart attack..
So we have a Republican governor whom supports health care I bet they try to deport him..
-
Originally posted by crockett
In California, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has just won approval from legislators for a major health-care reform which will expand coverage to most of the state's uninsured.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7157980.stm
I bet Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave and I'm quite sure Newt Gingrich will commit suicide if Arnold is successful. Larz will likely have a heart attack..
So we have a Republican governor whom supports health care I bet they try to deport him..
Republican President Huckabee will bring universal health care to all Americans by 2010.
After all, it is what Jesus would want us to do as a nation under God. No one should ever be left out, and suffer from want.
SIG 220
-
Originally posted by SIG220
Republican President Huckabee will bring universal health care to all Americans by 2010.
After all, it is what Jesus would want us to do as a nation under God. No one should ever be left out, and suffer from want.
SIG 220
lol that made me laugh. Im' not sure which is funnier, they you think Huckabee will be pres or that a Republican will bring a national health care plan to the table. (other than Arnold that is)
:lol
-
Originally posted by crockett
lol that made me laugh. Im' not sure which is funnier, they you think Huckabee will be pres or that a Republican will bring a national health care plan to the table. (other than Arnold that is)
:lol
Since the Democrats will control both houses of Congress, it is a given that they will introduce legislation, whether a Democrat or Republican is in the White House. It won't matter. It will happen.
-
arnie is not much of a republican... he was ten times better than the commie he was running against tho.. we really have no choices here.
Health care is not a right. You have the right to take care of yourself.. you don't have the right to make me pay for it. that is extortion and theft.
lazs
-
plus.. kalifornia gun bans are going to pretty much stop the selling of new firearms in kalifornia.. the testing alone is so prohibitive that most manufacturers are simply saying screw kalifornia. They don't want to make "kalifornia" versions of their firearms.. not enough profit in it.
lazs
-
With the fiscal mess in California, I'm quite curious where the money is going to come from. The nanny state there has bled the coffers dry.
BTW Arnie is a RINO.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arnie is not much of a republican... he was ten times better than the commie he was running against tho.. we really have no choices here.
Health care is not a right. You have the right to take care of yourself.. you don't have the right to make me pay for it. that is extortion and theft.
lazs
Exactly. Arnold was NEVER a republican. However, compared to the communists of california, a left leaning moderate appears to be a Reactionary.
-
Whether you fellas choose to realise it or not.
We already have a universal health care in this country.
All you have to do is walk into any hospital ER in the nation and talk to the staff there and you will find out the large number of people that come in every day and get treated whom are both not emergancy cases nor are they insured.
Alot of the lost cost hospitals suffer on account of this could be made up for if they could only get the insurance companies to actually pay the money they are supposed to for those who are insured.
One of the largest single losses Hospitals suffer is through the difficulty hospitals have in collecting money from the insurance companies that is rightfully owed to them.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Whether you fellas choose to realise it or not.
We already have a universal health care in this country.
All you have to do is walk into any hospital ER in the nation and talk to the staff there and you will find out the large number of people that come in every day and get treated whom are both not emergancy cases nor are they insured.
Alot of the lost cost hospitals suffer on account of this could be made up for if they could only get the insurance companies to actually pay the money they are supposed to for those who are insured.
One of the largest single losses Hospitals suffer is through the difficulty hospitals have in collecting money from the insurance companies that is rightfully owed to them.
And that's the exact reason why govt should be involved and why big business shouldn't be controlling what doctors can or can't do.
It's a conflict of intrest to have a company whom has to make a profit but is also the deciding factor on if a patent gets treated or not. If a company makes a profit should not dictate whom gets treatment and who doesn't or what medicine a doctor can or cant' prescribe.
-
Originally posted by crockett
And that's the exact reason why govt should be involved and why big business shouldn't be controlling what doctors can or can't do.
It's a conflict of intrest to have a company whom has to make a profit but is also the deciding factor on if a patent gets treated or not. If a company makes a profit should not dictate whom gets treatment and who doesn't or what medicine a doctor can or cant' prescribe.
And this is why socialism is evil. It is the doctor's interest in profit that made them doctors in the first place.
Of course YOU want to take power away from the doctors, and place it in the hands of the incompetent politicians who have NEVER been doctors (for the vast majority).
One of the biggest money losses from hospitals is not arguments over inflated costs with the insurer. It's that hospitals are required to treat anyone who enters, regardless of whether or not they can pay. A lot of money is lost at the inability to turn away Illegals, who shouldn't be in the country anyway.
-
Originally posted by crockett
And that's the exact reason why govt should be involved and why big business shouldn't be controlling what doctors can or can't do.
It's a conflict of intrest to have a company whom has to make a profit but is also the deciding factor on if a patent gets treated or not. If a company makes a profit should not dictate whom gets treatment and who doesn't or what medicine a doctor can or cant' prescribe.
No entity outside a corporation can afford to be involved in large scale health care. Given the cost involved in pharmaceuticals and physical care, there is no way a non profit entity could hope to even survive, never mind provide any real amount of care.
The government has shown that it cannot possibly run anything efficiently. Imagine the current level of bureaucracy in the government trying to run health care, when for profit corporations cannot truly control costs. Nothing besides disaster will result.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
And this is why socialism is evil. It is the doctor's interest in profit that made them doctors in the first place.
Of course YOU want to take power away from the doctors, and place it in the hands of the incompetent politicians who have NEVER been doctors (for the vast majority).
One of the biggest money losses from hospitals is not arguments over inflated costs with the insurer. It's that hospitals are required to treat anyone who enters, regardless of whether or not they can pay. A lot of money is lost at the inability to turn away Illegals, who shouldn't be in the country anyway.
You miss the point Larz.. It's not just about people whom can't pay. People that can pay end up losing everything they worked their entire lives for because of medical expenses.
Middle class people whom "think" they have good insurance end up getting turned down over and over for treatment. These people pay their bills yet the insurance company denies their treatment.
It has nothing to do with socialism and everything about doing what is right and having medical treatment that isn't dictated by profit.
Oh and btw being my mom is a nurse and has been the director of a few different nursing homes. Not to mention working in Hospitals and doctor offices. Well I think I have a pretty damn good understanding of how insurance companies try to get out of paying a bill.
Sure the illegals cost us money we shouldn't be paying, but is that a reason to not have health care for the citizens of this country?
btw Why is we never hear you *****ing about no bid contracts that the govt gives out like hot cakes to defense contractors? Is that not your tax dollars too? Is it ok to waste tax dollars or things Republicans support? If you can call it socialism it's bad but big business is ok?
-
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
No entity outside a corporation can afford to be involved in large scale health care. Given the cost involved in pharmaceuticals and physical care, there is no way a non profit entity could hope to even survive, never mind provide any real amount of care.
The government has shown that it cannot possibly run anything efficiently. Imagine the current level of bureaucracy in the government trying to run health care, when for profit corporations cannot truly control costs. Nothing besides disaster will result.
BS..
Go price a drug in the US then go online and price it in Canada it's the same in Mexico as well. We get charged double and sometimes triple for the "EXACT" same medicines, the reason is because our govt won't stop the price gouging.
It costs so much because the pharmaceutical companies get away with ripping us all off. Why? because the lobbyist and these companies hold more power than the people of this country.
-
btw every other civilized non 3rd world country in the west, has managed to do it, with the exception the USA.
-
Originally posted by crockett
BS..
Go price a drug in the US then go online and price it in Canada it's the same in Mexico as well. We get charged double and sometimes triple for the "EXACT" same medicines, the reason is because our govt won't stop the price gouging.
It costs so much because the pharmaceutical companies get away with ripping us all off. Why? because the lobbyist and these companies hold more power than the people of this country.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Those other countries control the prices of goods sold in their country that are produced in the U.S. Were it not for the fact that those corporations exist in the U.S., and make a profit, those cheap drugs that the citizens of Canada and Mexico enjoy wouldn't exist at ANY price. WE are subsidizing Canada and Mexico.
-
Originally posted by crockett
It has nothing to do with socialism and everything about doing what is right and having medical treatment that isn't dictated by profit.
It is NEVER right to steal one man's money to pay for the incompetence of another. FOR ANY REASON.
-
the Canadian govt controls the price of drugs sold in Canada.
-
crock-it.. how do you justify that you go on about your life choosing what you pay for... computers.. internet service.. snacks maybe booze and cigs and cable tv and a movie now and then but...
because you refuse to pay for your health care.. It is somehow up to me to pay for it?
how do you justify taking my money to pay for your health care?
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
arnie is not much of a republican... he was ten times better than the commie he was running against tho.. we really have no choices here.
Health care is not a right. You have the right to take care of yourself.. you don't have the right to make me pay for it. that is extortion and theft.
lazs
Agree!If you cant afford to pay for your own health ,you should die:noid
-
Arnold is married to one of the Kennedy clan, could be some political pillow talk going on.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
crock-it.. how do you justify that you go on about your life choosing what you pay for... computers.. internet service.. snacks maybe booze and cigs and cable tv and a movie now and then but...
because you refuse to pay for your health care.. It is somehow up to me to pay for it?
how do you justify taking my money to pay for your health care?
lazs
He's entitled to other people paying for his health care. Hillary told him so.
I hope Ahnald The Medicator works out better than Gray-out Davis did with his energy plan.:lol
-
Healthcare for Americans? Lol that is ludicrous. Now get your butts over to Iraq and win their civil war for them.
-
Originally posted by crockett
In California, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has just won approval from legislators for a major health-care reform which will expand coverage to most of the state's uninsured.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7157980.stm
I bet Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave and I'm quite sure Newt Gingrich will commit suicide if Arnold is successful. Larz will likely have a heart attack..
So we have a Republican governor whom supports health care I bet they try to deport him..
And THIS is how he's gonna pay for it:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222318
-
we have universal healthcare already....
they would even save croks life..when he shows up in the ER from being Beach slapped at the local pub
-
The government has shown that it cannot possibly run anything efficiently. Imagine the current level of bureaucracy in the government trying to run health care, when for profit corporations cannot truly control costs. Nothing besides disaster will result.
So true... imagine walking into your local Division of Motor Vehicles and trying to get some immediate attention... sorry, take a number, have a seat... these are the same people who will be providing your health care. Want to complain about it? take another number...
-
Originally posted by john9001
the Canadian govt controls the price of drugs sold in Canada.
And a a result their medications are affordable and the citizens of their country have the "choice" of having private medical care or govt provided care.
You think it's ok that hospitals charge $5 or more for a freaking aspirin here in the US? Any other industry price gouging like that would not be acceptable.
You think the power company could get away with charging us 5000% more than what it costs them to produce the power? Can your local city get away with charging you 5000% more for water? what about the local gas company could they get away with it?
These are all examples on things that the govt helps control the prices on. You think heating oil companies would get away with jacking up the price of oil by 5000% over the fair market price? Hell no the govt would be all over it.
Yet pharmaceutical companies and hospitials get away with it and people die every year because they can't afford the medication that would save their live or give them a better quality of life. However somehow it's everyone else's fault because I guess they can't afford it.
-
Originally posted by Gunthr
So true... imagine walking into your local Division of Motor Vehicles and trying to get some immediate attention... sorry, take a number, have a seat... these are the same people who will be providing your health care. Want to complain about it? take another number...
I guess you have never waited in your doctor's office. Funny anytime I've seen a doctor I'd say on average I've waited 30mins in the lobby.. Then if I'm lucky another 20 mins in the private room.
Guess waiting at the tag off isn't so bad. Hell I just renewed my tag last month and I only waited about 15 mins. Damn the man!.
-
Originally posted by crockett
And that's the exact reason why govt should be involved and why big business shouldn't be controlling what doctors can or can't do.
It's a conflict of intrest to have a company whom has to make a profit but is also the deciding factor on if a patent gets treated or not. If a company makes a profit should not dictate whom gets treatment and who doesn't or what medicine a doctor can or cant' prescribe.
Big part of the problem isnt just the insurance companies deciding what treatments are given. Which yes is a problem.
But also in just getting the insurance companies to actually pay up on treatment they agreed to pay for in the first place and dont.
I knew a nun who used to run the finance dept at a hospital.
And one of her biggest complaints was in just getting the insurace companies to just pay up on money they actually owed.
Seems agreeing to pay for treament ius one thing.
them actually sending the money to pay for the treament they agree to pay for is an entirely different matter.
And I know just for that hospital alone ten years ago the debt owed to it by insurance companies ran in the double digit millions.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
crock-it.. how do you justify that you go on about your life choosing what you pay for... computers.. internet service.. snacks maybe booze and cigs and cable tv and a movie now and then but...
because you refuse to pay for your health care.. It is somehow up to me to pay for it?
lazs
First off what makes you think I don't have insurance. I didn't say anywhere in here that I don't have insurance. I didn't say I refuse to pay for insurance. I also don't drink other than socially and I don't smoke.
Quit pulling your assumptions out of your arus, much like everything else you tend to say.
I do have medical insurance for emergency cases but I choose not to pay for things like prescription coverage. You want to know why?
I'll tell you. I was paying $400+ (think it was $120ish week) a month for full health coverage through one of the largest insurance companies in this country. I went to the Doctor about a year or so back to get a prescription.
The doctor gave me two prescriptions in which I needed both. Guess what the insurance company turned down the coverage for 1 of the two. That medicine here in the US cost me $137.00 for a little 60gram tube of ointment for psoriasis.
Yet in Canada where prices are regulated, I could buy the exact same medication 60grams for $65.00 or 120 grams for $124.00.
So there I was paying over $100 a week for full coverage and Im' a pretty healthy person whom rarely ever has to go to the doctor. Yet after all that paying with no insurance claims. I couldn't get a simple prescription filled.
So Lard maybe you are dumb enough to pay for something that you never get, but Im' sure as hell not going to do it. So that's why I ask for the govt to step in. Because the private sector has show it CAN NOT be trusted to provide quality and fair service.
In our country it's not the doctor whom decides what treatments you will get. It's the suites at your insurance company whom pick profit over people's health.
Originally posted by lazs2
how do you justify taking my money to pay for your health care?
lazs [/B]
Funny you should ask that.. You know what I don't support the war in Iraq, yet my tax dollars are paying for it. I don't like George Bush.. Yet my tax dollars pay for his bellybutton to fly all over the world in Air Force one.
I don't like most of my govt, but my tax dollars pay their salaries so they can screw us over. I can't think of the last time I had to call the police for protection yet my tax dollars pay for police. Same can be said for the Fire Department.
There are a hell of a lot of things that I may not like that my govt does, but guess what my tax dollars pay for it. So you know what, I'd say after all the years I've paid my taxes, well I should damn sure have the ability to get what every other non third world country in the west has..
That's affordable health care, if you haven't figured that out yet.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Big part of the problem isnt just the insurance companies deciding what treatments are given. Which yes is a problem.
But also in just getting the insurance companies to actually pay up on treatment they agreed to pay for in the first place and dont.
I knew a nun who used to run the finance dept at a hospital.
And one of her biggest complaints was in just getting the insurace companies to just pay up on money they actually owed.
Seems agreeing to pay for treament ius one thing.
them actually sending the money to pay for the treament they agree to pay for is an entirely different matter.
And I know just for that hospital alone ten years ago the debt owed to it by insurance companies ran in the double digit millions.
Yes that's the entire point I'm making. We don't have a bad health care system. Hell the Us has some of the best health care in the world. The problem is half the population in this country can't afford it.
The reason is because the "free market" system has been extreemly abused and the govt refuses to step in and protect the citizens of this country from the abuse.
Do I say we must have free health care paid for by Uncle Sam? Hell it would be nice but I know it likely will never happen. However I do expect "AFFORADABLE" health care. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Again why should I have to pay double the amount for the exact same medication that a person in Canada can buy for half the price?
Would you not be a little annoyed if you had to pay 100k for a car here in the US that was built in this country. Then turn around and find out that the Canadians could buy the same car for $50k?
Then you find out, the only reason for the price difference is because the company can "get away" with charging more here. Would that not upset you specially if all the other car makers did the same so they could control the market? Does that sound like the free market working the way it should?
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Exactly. Arnold was NEVER a republican. However, compared to the communists of california, a left leaning moderate appears to be a Reactionary.
Hey, I was born and raised in California!
SIG 220
-
Originally posted by crockett
BS..
Go price a drug in the US then go online and price it in Canada it's the same in Mexico as well. We get charged double and sometimes triple for the "EXACT" same medicines, the reason is because our govt won't stop the price gouging.
It costs so much because the pharmaceutical companies get away with ripping us all off. Why? because the lobbyist and these companies hold more power than the people of this country.
You are implying that all the millions of dollars the various drug companies give to their Washington lobbyists allows them to influence the Congress.
SIG 220
-
Originally posted by SIG220
You are implying that all the millions of dollars the various drug companies give to their Washington lobbyists allows them to influence the Congress.
SIG 220
No the millions of dollars that Washington lobbyist allows them to do good things and help mankind. They must just be there to make sure politicians work for the people and not big biz.
serious man I know I'm coming off as an bellybutton with this response.. but really WTH do you think they do? Buy everyone roses and sing Kumbaya around a fire holding hands?
It's not just Congress they buy all politicians, from the state level all the way to the top at Washington.
-
I have all the compassion in the world for people who are in need.
I also believe people need to PLAN for their futures, be it medical emergencies or retirement.
However, since we live in a "no consequences for bad choices" society, we the tax payers frequently are forced to be the buffer to those who simply feel it is "owed" to them.
-
Originally posted by crockett
The reason is because the "free market" system has been extreemly abused and the govt refuses to step in and protect the citizens of this country from the abuse.
Man, you are way off base.... way off. My wife and I are both health care professionals. i'm going to now tell you why things are so expensive. you might not like it, but here it is plain and simple:
Free riders that don't pay... do you think hospitals just throw up their hands and not collect? They raise their prices to those who can pay and try to make up every penny they can.
Insurance compaines that pay a minimal amount for procedures: Insurance companies are in business for profit so they drive the prices down at every opportunity. Often a patient can get screwed by this because if he/she has the means to pay, the health care providor will pursue them for the difference.
Malpracticve insurance: the populace has become so litigious in their efforts to find someone to blame for their troubles/misfortune/ get rich quick that Dr's and facilities must pay exorbatent prices for adquate coverage. What does this mean to you? The Doc's services become more expensive since he/she isn't going to, and cannot be expected to, operate at a loss.
So you can put away your fantasy that the citizens of this country are being abused by the health care system. It's the other way around and citizens are reaping what they sow.
Fixing healthcare actually has some definitive answers. Here's a couple:
Stop giving free health care to those who cannot pay and are not citizens of the US. Results: IMMEDIATELY good health care becomes available to EVERY single US citizen at a reasonable price. IMMEDIATELY.
Reign in frivilous law suits and change the attitude of the country where it is felt that someone has to pay for the misfortunes of others. Remember when, sometimes, it was just a matter of bad luck and nobody got sued? Results: very quickly, as insurance rates drop, Docs will lower prices(competition will take care of this) and the public will beneift accordingly.
You are 180 degrees off. It's not the people of this country that need protection from the healthcare industry, it's the healthcare industry that needs protection from people.(illegal aliens, fraud, litigious parasites)
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Man, you are way off base.... way off. My wife and I are both health care professionals. i'm going to now tell you why things are so expensive. you might not like it, but here it is plain and simple:
Free riders that don't pay... do you think hospitals just throw up their hands and not collect? They raise their prices to those who can pay and try to make up every penny they can.
Insurance compaines that pay a minimal amount for procedures: Insurance companies are in business for profit so they drive the prices down at every opportunity. Often a patient can get screwed by this because if he/she has the means to pay, the health care providor will pursue them for the difference.
Malpracticve insurance: the populace has become so litigious in their efforts to find someone to blame for their troubles/misfortune/ get rich quick that Dr's and facilities must pay exorbatent prices for adquate coverage. What does this mean to you? The Doc's services become more expensive since he/she isn't going to, and cannot be expected to, operate at a loss.
So you can put away your fantasy that the citizens of this country are being abused by the health care system. It's the other way around and citizens are reaping what they sow.
Fixing healthcare actually has some definitive answers. Here's a couple:
Stop giving free health care to those who cannot pay and are not citizens of the US. Results: IMMEDIATELY good health care becomes available to EVERY single US citizen at a reasonable price. IMMEDIATELY.
Reign in frivilous law suits and change the attitude of the country where it is felt that someone has to pay for the misfortunes of others. Remember when, sometimes, it was just a matter of bad luck and nobody got sued? Results: very quickly, as insurance rates drop, Docs will lower prices(competition will take care of this) and the public will beneift accordingly.
You are 180 degrees off. It's not the people of this country that need protection from the healthcare industry, it's the healthcare industry that needs protection from people.(illegal aliens, fraud, litigious parasites)
I don't think I'm 180 degrees off on this. You say part of the reason things cost so much is because people don't pay. Why do you think most of them don't pay?
Do you not think it's possible that they can't afford it? This is the entire issue at hand. If health care was "AFFORDABLE" more people would be paying their bills.
Hell man I was in a car wreck a few years ago. I wasn't hurt but my neck was sore, so I went to the emergency room just to get checked out. In the end the bill was something like $800 dollars to sit there 4 hours, get 2 X-rays and talk to the Doctor for literally 5 mins. (I'm not BS on the 5 mins either).
So there I am lucky I had insurance that I had been paying 100+ a week for.. Even then I think I got stuck with somewhere around $150 that came out of my pocket.
So now lets go back to the cost of insurance I'm single and make decant money so I can afford to pay for insurance. Yet I run my own business so it cost me even more now.
Now what if it's some single mom whom has 2 kids? Remember not everyone can have jobs where they get full benefits and make 50 - 100k a year.
It's easy to sit there with a big head and say well "I" can afford insurance it's their fault if they can't. blahh blahh blahh blahh. Like some do on this forum. The point is the System is broken and needs to be fixed.
You talk about Malpractice insurance yea I know law suites are an issue and there are a lot of A holes whom look for their big lottery ticket. On the other hand we all know hospitals and doctors screw up. So while I can agree there are a lot of frivolous law suites, there are also a lot of legit law suites.
At the end of the day, nothing will ever change until the govt gets involved and comes up with a plan where the average American citizen can afford health care.
-
Well Crockett, for every story like yours, there's many like this one I'll tell you...
At one of my previous jobs, my coworkers were a married couple. They had two kids. Kid #2 they didnt know about til she had stomach pains and went to the ER. 45 minutes later, she gave birth. (Pretty sad when you're that obesse and don't know you're knocked up, eh?) Since she wasnt aware :rolleyes: she was pregnant, she drank and partied it up all during the pregnancy. Result...a kid with severe autism.
Now over the years, they had the chance to sign up for insurance offered at work. But they opted to blow their money on cars, recreational vehicles and found a way to have Social Security fund the kid's health woes. They'd visit Doctr's and specialists, hit the ER when the kids was having severe issues....and never make any attempt to pay the bill. Their car was their mailbox. The backseat was overflowing with collection letters from the hospital, trying to recoup some of the fees. Nope.
Its these kind of "well we deserve it' attitudes that are killing clinics and ERs across the country.
Someday, somehow, someone won't be afraid to be the "meany" and make these people contribute to their balances.
-
Australia has pretty good public health care and for the most part it's free.
For example:
The birth of our daughter.
Sarah was a high risk pregnancy, which meant pretty much constant monitoring of her B.P. and regular renal specialist appointments.
Many many trips to hospital with high B.P. scares and she spent the last week in hospital before an emergency C-section at 33 weeks followed by 3 weeks NICU care for Brianna and 2.5 weeks (in a private room) hospital for Sarah.
Total cost, nada, nothing, zip.
pretty darn good IMO.:aok
Oh, and there are many pharmacutical companies that manufacture and develop in Oz.
-
Over here, health care is free for all.
Well, not exactly free, we have to pay ~30 € every time we go to see a doc. However, no one has to pay more than 100€ for medical expences in a year, so if you have gone three times to see a doc or whatever, you get a special card that gives you free health care for the rest of the year.
All of this is tax funded naturally, but I really dont have a problem with the government taking some of the tax money to fund that health care for all citizens. In fact, it is one of the things I would gladly pay tax for, and I hate taxes and socialism with the intensity of a detonating hydrogen bomb.
I know some people think that everyone should take care of themselves, and get their own insurances or whatever, but guess what, not all people are flawless. Some are alcoholics, some are insane, some are just plain careless and some are stupid. For whatever reason, some people fail to take care of themselves. And rather than having those people starve to death in the streets or dying in the gutter from pneumonia or whatever, I have no problem whatsoever with the government paying for their hospital care with my tax money. Thats like me giving them some of my money to pay for their hospital expences. To me, that seems like the Christian thing to do anyway.
-
LePaul of course there are people whom take advantage of things. There always will be but is that a reason that everyone else should get screwed?
SD67 and Hortlund both of your countries are obvious communist countries and have plans of world domination. All must fear govt controlled health care in the US, as it is a evil plan by FEMA to take control of this country. Oh and they plan to make Larz pay for all of it after they take his guns away.
:rofl
btw how are the immigration policies, as I'm slowely giving up on this country.
-
This is about money and individual fiscal responsibility.
I doubt more than a few here, and elsewhere, are heartless to human suffering.
If, by some miracle, healthcare was without cost to anyone including costless to the government, the understandable arguments on this thread would not exist.
Obligatory charity does not set well with some; with others, it does.
Self-imposed and also unavoidable poverty has always existed and always will.
Jesus spoke of these things often.
It's a personal moral issue as to helping others... or not.
Think about it.. what person here, in exchange for a tax refund, would walk into a hospital and unplug life support from a young child who is without insurance and carry them to the street and watch them die?
Personally, I can not abide human suffering because it makes me suffer, but that’s just me. I don’t presume to enforce these feelings on to others, thus Lazs, et al, and I never discuss fairness or unfairness of forced charity. He is entitled to his feelings too and I know he is not heartless.
It's about money and fairness.
TIGERESS
-
I pay for you, you pay for me, so everyone is on the safe side, whats the Problem ?
It works, at least here.
-
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
I pay for you, you pay for me, so everyone is on the safe side, whats the Problem ?
It works, at least here.
There was a time in your country when that was not true, dear, regardless of which country you are in.
Things changed at some point and probably amid these types of arguments.
The US is moving towards universal health care regardless of the arguments to the contrary.
TIGERESS
-
crock-it.. nice rant but not answering my question. You pay for the war in iraq because the government took your money to do it.. they at least have some basis tho.. the only function the government should be allowed is the defense of the country and enforcing peoples rights. You have no right for me to pay for your health care.
the fact that our taxes are being wasted in other ways does not make it ok to steal even more.
As for your insurance.. I was talking in the grand "you" how could I know what kind of insurance you have? no matter what it is tho.. I should not have to pay for it.
I shouldn't have to pay for your car insurance either... you can get car insurance the same way you get health insurance.. you can get PL and PD only for a very cheap amount and take your chances.. spend the extra on whatever you want.. You can get more involved car insurance with a very high deductable and spend the money you save on your hobbies and... take your chances..
Same for health insurance.. I know people paying less than $60 a month with a $4,000 deductible.. you could do that and use the rest of the money on your hobbies... like you do by not having perscriptiptions... you could go full boat and no deductible.. it is up to you... don't blame me for your choices.
It is like blaming me if you have to pay a high deductible when you wreck your car.. you made your choice.
car insurance costs many here more than their health insurance.
Again.. you have no right to take my money to pay for your insurance. either get insurance or not... either get full coverage or some stripped down plan and enjoy your hobbies whatever they are. I bet you have a computer and internet and a cell phone and cable tv and a number of things.. If they are more important than health insurance fine... your choice.. if not.. get the health insurance.
in any case the choice is yours but you have no right to ask me to subsidize your lifestyle. It is immoral.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
I pay for you, you pay for me, so everyone is on the safe side, whats the Problem ?
It works, at least here.
Unfortunately the people in this country have yet to figure that out. Too many selfish people I guess that are scared to death of change.
-
Originally posted by crockett
Unfortunately the people in this country have yet to figure that out. Too many selfish people I guess that are scared to death of change.
Selfish? You described yourself perfectly. You want everyone else to pay for you.
-
Originally posted by crockett
I don't think I'm 180 degrees off on this. You say part of the reason things cost so much is because people don't pay. Why do you think most of them don't pay?
Most of them don't pay because they are illegal aliens. That's right. a large percentage of people that don't pay are here illegally. Did you really read what I posted?
If health care was "AFFORDABLE" more people would be paying their bills.
I already told you why health insurance isn't affordable for many. The solutions are right there in my post. Were the govt to take control of pricing without the two fixes I've mentioned, EVERY hospital in the US would be bankrupt inside of a few months. Think about it. You want to reduce how much hospitals charge but not reduce how much it costs them to operate. Does this make sense to you? You seem to have the notion that hospitals make tons of profit. Contrarily, many hospitals are already running in the red, many have closed down due to financial collapse, yet you want to reduce their income without reducing their costs. While your idea of everyone having insurance is a noble one, your solution to the problem would destroy the health care industry, literally, in less than a year.
-
Originally posted by LePaul
Selfish? You described yourself perfectly. You want everyone else to pay for you.
Actually if you pay for health insurance you are already paying for everyone else. As it was already posted in this thread. Part of the reason medical treatment costs so much in this country is because there are a lot of people whom can't pay. So in return hospitals charge more for their services to cover the costs. The extra costs is then passed on to you by way of insurance premiums.
If you actually used your brain, you would understand that I have said what I want 4 or 5 times in this thread. However it seems you and Larz failed reading and comprehension class in school. (obviously another topic)
If you understood this you would have read that I asked for "affordable" insurance. I did say free health care would be nice but I also said I know that will never happen.
So how you come to the conclusion, that I somehow expect you to pay for me is beyond me. Then again I guess it comes back to the "reading & comprehension" thing again. You should actually support "affordable" health insurance because it would cost you less.
That's the whole theory behind "affordable", hence the need for govt regulation. Then again, I'm arguing with two of the guys on this forum whom still can't figure out what "global warming" means.
-
strange how those stating "it works here" are the same countries where if the sicko has the funds, they travel here for treatments as we do it faster and better..
nope, don't care to have my doctors office look like my local DMV .. the waiting room is bad enough.
like it has been stated already .. NO ONE in the US is denied treatment TODAY. Just pop your head into your local ER about midnight during the next full moon phase and take a poll...
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Most of them don't pay because they are illegal aliens. That's right. a large percentage of people that don't pay are here illegally. Did you really read what I posted?
I already told you why health insurance isn't affordable for many. The solutions are right there in my post. Were the govt to take control of pricing without the two fixes I've mentioned, EVERY hospital in the US would be bankrupt inside of a few months. Think about it. You want to reduce how much hospitals charge but not reduce how much it costs them to operate. Does this make sense to you? You seem to have the notion that hospitals make tons of profit. Contrarily, many hospitals are already running in the red, many have closed down due to financial collapse, yet you want to reduce their income without reducing their costs. While your idea of everyone having insurance is a noble one, your solution to the problem would destroy the health care industry, literally, in less than a year.
Economics works in magical ways some times.
You can go the serve only a few people, but charge those people out the bellybutton route. (our current health care system)
Or you can serve in bulk and charge a fair affordable price and still make the profits by dealing in volume.
Health care is a different ball game, because every nurse and doctor takes a oath to give service in a ethical manor. Ethics or Profit is not a choice which should be made in reguards to health care.
Yet, we obviously can't snap our fingers and have a magic system tomorrow nor will it ever be a easy thing to fix. Should that stop us from doing it?
You act as if it can't work, yet it works in every other civilized western country in the world. Sure it might be tough to fix and cost some money, but it's never going to get cheaper or any easier to fix later. You can bet your bellybutton it will have to be fixed at some point because even under the current system hospitals are going broke and closing their doors.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
strange how those stating "it works here" are the same countries where if the sicko has the funds, they travel here for treatments as we do it faster and better..
[/b]
Rubbish. The quality of our healthcare is in the absolute top of the world. And its free. To claim or insinuate that the quality is any lower here than in the US is pure BS.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
strange how those stating "it works here" are the same countries where if the sicko has the funds, they travel here for treatments as we do it faster and better..
nope, don't care to have my doctors office look like my local DMV .. the waiting room is bad enough.
like it has been stated already .. NO ONE in the US is denied treatment TODAY. Just pop your head into your local ER about midnight during the next full moon phase and take a poll...
You are very wrong. No one is denied emergency treatment in this country. However people are most definitely denied treatment even for life threatening illnesses and many of those people DO have insurance.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
It's about money and fairness.
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?
This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.
-
[
You can go the serve only a few people, but charge those people out the bellybutton route. (our current health care system)
I've already explained why prices are high. You are blaming the wrong people for the situation.
Ethics or Profit is not a choice which should be made in reguards to health care.
so you expect Dr's to go to school for nearly a decade.. then not make a profit? You expect nurses to work for no profit?
You act as if it can't work
It simply cannot work the way you've suggested. You would destroy healthcare in the US... as I've already stated.
current system hospitals are going broke and closing their doors.
Yet your solution is to have hospitals charge less without reducing their operating cost. I'll ask you again.. it would be nice if you actually answered questions you were asked, does this make sense to you?
-
Originally posted by Gunthr
So true... imagine walking into your local Division of Motor Vehicles and trying to get some immediate attention... sorry, take a number, have a seat... these are the same people who will be providing your health care. Want to complain about it? take another number...
Crockett said: I guess you have never waited in your doctor's office. Funny anytime I've seen a doctor I'd say on average I've waited 30mins in the lobby.. Then if I'm lucky another 20 mins in the private room.
Guess waiting at the tag off isn't so bad. Hell I just renewed my tag last month and I only waited about 15 mins. Damn the man!.
Crocket if you are waiting 30 minutes to see a doctor now, with national healthcare you are going to be waiting much much longer and there won't be a thing you can do about it. And that will be the least of your worries. Look at VA hospitals - not exactly a good model for dispensing government care are they? National health care would be a disaster in this country. In governmental bureaucracies in the US, you cannot get rid of incompetents, who will keep getting bigger salaries year after year regardless. Then, with government involvement, you get all the regulations like racial quotas and affirmative action in the hiring of surgeons, physicians, and nurses, and all the rest.
Then, as Lazs points out, there is the question of whether the government, with its monopoly on violence and coercion, should be ethically allowed to forcibly make me pay for someone elses healthcare if I don't want to. I think its wrong. We should all have a free choice in the matter. There is enough government interference in our lives as it is.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?
This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.
Darwin said it best ..
-
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?
This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy. Hortlund
There are cultural systems for this, ie Family, Friends, Churches, Charitable Organizations, Community and so on. We already provide welfare and free health care to those you listed. We don't have to get national healthcare to take care of them.
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
[
Yet your solution is to have hospitals charge less without reducing their operating cost. I'll ask you again.. it would be nice if you actually answered questions you were asked, does this make sense to you?
I'm not going to keep saying the same thing over and over so here it is as simple as I can put it.
Insurance.. prices are insane and insurance companies are caught in the middle of making a choice between paying for a service or making a profit. We all hope they don't put profit first, but we all know that's not the case in the real world.
Medication.. in this country costs two to three times more than it does in other countries such as Canada and even Mexico. For this there is no excuse. There is no excusable reason other than greed. This is a clear cut area that MUST have govt control and regulation.
If the prices of medication were cut in half and we paid the same as Canadians pay. Well guess what? Insurance would cost us less too. Hospitals would charge less as well. Why is that? Because they would be paying less.
Sure it cuts into the billion of dollars of profits pharmaceutical companies make by ripping of the people of this country. Yea know what? I don't give a damn. Seems to me if they couldn't make a profit selling the very same drugs to Canadians and Mexicans.. Well I'm sure they wouldn't sell them now would they?
Just this one thing alone would cut the cost of health care in this country by massive amounts. As medication makes up the biggest expense to both insurance companies and the end user.
After that we can start working on other things, but just this one thing would cut prices by a tremendous amount. The pharmaceutical companies are as big of a problem or bigger than illegals.
At this point illegals and lawsuits is a whole different ball game. One thing is certian our govt damn sure COULD put the stop to the price gouging that goes on in the pharmaceutical market.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
Darwin said it best ..
Lets just hope you never need a life saving surgery and then look to your insurance company whom turns down your treatment. That would be an ironic thing.
-
Originally posted by Gunthr
Crocket if you are waiting 30 minutes to see a doctor now, with national healthcare you are going to be waiting much much longer and there won't be a thing you can do about it. And that will be the least of your worries. Look at VA hospitals - not exactly a good model for dispensing government care are they? National health care would be a disaster in this country. In governmental bureaucracies in the US, you cannot get rid of incompetents, who will keep getting bigger salaries year after year regardless. Then, with government involvement, you get all the regulations like racial quotas and affirmative action in the hiring of surgeons, physicians, and nurses, and all the rest.
Then, as Lazs points out, there is the question of whether the government, with its monopoly on violence and coercion, should be ethically allowed to forcibly make me pay for someone elses healthcare if I don't want to. I think its wrong. We should all have a free choice in the matter. There is enough government interference in our lives as it is.
Actually the VA hospitals in this country were some of the best in the country. They didn't go to **** until the management was put into the hands of private business whom had to worry about profits.
That was the fault of our president elect and his cronies whom claim to support our troops.
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?
This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.
To understand my personal stance you can't just take a single sentence out of context like that.
Please re-read, in full, the post from which it came, dear.
You will see my feelings do agree with your feelings and also validates the rational of others as far as their feelings about how their money is spent.
I just don't purport to spend other's money. I leave that to the professional money spenders in Congress.
I am, helplessly, a peacemaker, dear.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
Rubbish. The quality of our healthcare is in the absolute top of the world. And its free. To claim or insinuate that the quality is any lower here than in the US is pure BS. [/B]
You can't seriously be naive enough to think it is free, or anywhere close to being free?
-
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hortlund
Rubbish. The quality of our healthcare is in the absolute top of the world. And its free. To claim or insinuate that the quality is any lower here than in the US is pure BS. [/B]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trust me when I say its not free... someone is paying for it in the form of taxes.
I have needed to use health care services in other countries due to extensive international business travel over the years and I can tell you from personal experience... our US health care delivery sucks sucks sucks, relative to delivery I have used in other countries.
I wish I could have delivered my two sons in a good hospital in Paris.
We may be on the bleeding edge of medical science but health care delivery just plain sucks and is God awful expensive relative to any other country I know of! I had to pay out of pocket so I was aware of the expenses.
IMV, we in the US are getting RIPPED OFF!
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by crockett
Lets just hope you never need a life saving surgery and then look to your insurance company whom turns down your treatment. That would be an ironic thing.
please post a link to a credible story were the person died because the insurance company said No to such a surgical procedure
-
Originally posted by Eagler
please post a link to a credible story were the person died because the insurance company said No to such a surgical procedure
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22357873/
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Aetna_Loses.asp
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Eagler
please post a link to a credible story were the person died because the insurance company said No to such a surgical procedure
I think there was a case in media just week or two ago.
-
One of the east coast states, I think New Hampshire, started a statewide healthcare program and in less than a year it exceded the budget by millions.
Stupid California is already in the red 15 billion and this program costs 15 billion.
With the US being the most taxed western nation already I can't even imagine what we will start giving up to pay for National Healthcare. I'm thinking Freedom completely. Think about this, if the government is running it they then will start making rules you will absolutely have to abide by in order to meet the terms of their coverage. Maybe you have to check every week to see if you exercised or did you have a beer etc. Worse yet some 22 year old clerk may decide that you lived long enough.
-
Originally posted by Getback
One of the east coast states, I think New Hampshire, started a statewide healthcare program and in less than a year it exceded the budget by millions.
Stupid California is already in the red 15 billion and this program costs 15 billion.
With the US being the most taxed western nation already I can't even imagine what we will start giving up to pay for National Healthcare. I'm thinking Freedom completely. Think about this, if the government is running it they then will start making rules you will absolutely have to abide by in order to meet the terms of their coverage. Maybe you have to check every week to see if you exercised or did you have a beer etc. Worse yet some 22 year old clerk may decide that you lived long enough.
That would be Massachusetts, I believe.
TIGERESS
-
I'm not going to keep saying the same thing over and over so here it is as simple as I can put it.
I asked you a "Yes or no" question which you have never answered. You are not saying the same thing over and over again. You are so worried about winning an argument that only you are having that you refuse to have a reasonable discussion.
If the prices of medication were cut in half and we paid the same as Canadians pay.
There's reasons why drugs are more expensive in the US that have nothing to do with profit and greed. Are you interested or would it be simpler for you to just blindly(and incorrectly, AGAIN) point the blame at the drug companies?
-
Originally posted by Hortlund
What about those who fail to take care of themselves? The poor, who cant afford insurance? The alcoholic who spends his money on booze instead of insurance? The idiot who spends his money on an Xbox360 instead of insurance? What of them? If they get sick, what are we to do with them? Let them starve? Let them die in the gutter? Say f uck em and let them die? What about those in the categories above who have children?
This issue is much more important and much more complex than some ideologic stand motivated by fantasy.
Key term there is: "fail to take care of themselves"
Lesson: if you make poor choices, you suffer the consequences. Get up, dust yourself off & make better choices. What are we, babysitters to adults?
If someone screws up, let them suffer. That will factor in to their decision making process the next time they're choosing between screwing up & doing right.
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I asked you a "Yes or no" question which you have never answered. You are not saying the same thing over and over again. You are so worried about winning an argument that only you are having that you refuse to have a reasonable discussion.
There's reasons why drugs are more expensive in the US that have nothing to do with profit and greed. Are you interested or would it be simpler for you to just blindly(and incorrectly, AGAIN) point the blame at the drug companies?
As memory serves, Steve, the high cost of drugs here is tied to very expensive American drug company R&D.
I just grips me to pay more for the same thing here I have bought in other countries for a lot less. Seems like all individual Amercians are subsidizing medicine development for most of the world.
You are the HC professional though, so I look to you for some answers, guidance, and insight.
TIGERSS
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
I asked you a "Yes or no" question which you have never answered. You are not saying the same thing over and over again. You are so worried about winning an argument that only you are having that you refuse to have a reasonable discussion.
There's reasons why drugs are more expensive in the US that have nothing to do with profit and greed. Are you interested or would it be simpler for you to just blindly(and incorrectly, AGAIN) point the blame at the drug companies?
What is your important question? This?
so you expect Dr's to go to school for nearly a decade.. then not make a profit? You expect nurses to work for no profit?
Of course I don't expect them to work for free, but is money the only reason a doctor chooses his profession? I'd sure hope not.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
As memory serves, Steve, the high cost of drugs here is tied to very expensive American drug company R&D.
I just grips me to pay more for the same thing here I have bought in other countries for a lot less. Seems like all individual Amercians are subsidizing medicine development for most of the world.
You are the HC professional though, so I look to you for some answers, guidance, and insight.
TIGERSS
Here's more: In Canada, the drug companies cannot advertise to their drugs directly to the consumer, i.e TV and radio commercials. In the US, the drug companies spend over 3 billion a year on advertising. Guess who pays for this? That's right, the average Joe. Just like any other product you buy, advertising costs are built into the price of drugs.
Another reason: The Canadian govt puts caps on how much drugs cost there. That's a good thing right? WRONG! .. unless you are Canadian or buy there. The drug companies have to make a profit to stay in business so they absorb their losses in Canada and make up for it by raising prices elsewhere... like the US.
another: The exchange rate: while this has evened out recently, in recent past the Canadian dollar was only at 60 to 70% of the US dollar.
Another: The costs of the FDA. This could be construed as part of R&D. It is the FDA's job to " take clear steps to try to make sure that those products are safe and effective, or accurately labeled, not misbranded, not adulterated"
In Canada for instance, there is no entity like the FDA.
This is why the drug companies had such a fit over American buyers buying drugs online from Canada. It isn't greed, it's simple economics. They cannot afford to sell their products at Canadian costs worldwide...they'd be out of business. Interestingly enough, one of the biggest companies complaining of the practice was GlaxoSmithKline, which happens to be an English based company.
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Here's more: In Canada, the drug companies cannot advertise to their drugs directly to the consumer, i.e TV and radio commercials. In the US, the drug companies spend over 3 billion a year on advertising. Guess who pays for this? That's right, the average Joe. Just like any other product you buy, advertising costs are built into the price of drugs.
Another reason: The Canadian govt puts caps on how much drugs cost there. That's a good thing right? WRONG! .. unless you are Canadian or buy there. The drug companies have to make a profit to stay in business so they absorb their losses in Canada and make up for it by raising prices elsewhere... like the US.
another: The exchange rate: while this has evened out recently, in recent past the Canadian dollar was only at 60 to 70% of the US dollar.
Another: The costs of the FDA. This could be construed as part of R&D. It is the FDA's job to " take clear steps to try to make sure that those products are safe and effective, or accurately labeled, not misbranded, not adulterated"
In Canada for instance, there is no entity like the FDA.
This is why the drug companies had such a fit over American buyers buying drugs online from Canada. It isn't greed, it's simple economics. They cannot afford to sell their products at Canadian costs worldwide...they'd be out of business. Interestingly enough, one of the biggest companies complaining of the practice was GlaxoSmithKline, which happens to be an English based company.
mmm... makes sense.
And, why should Canada bother itself with a Canadian FDA since the US is doing it... it would be redundant, wouldn't it?
I always assumed the FDA was funded 100% by taxpayer dollars and not at all by the drug companies.
Yes, I would consider the cost of the FDA to be an R&D expense one way or the other.
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
mmm... makes sense.
I always assumed the FDA was funded 100% by taxpayer dollars and not at all by the drug companies.
TIGERESS
Here's an eye opener for you:
"Approximately half of the FDA’s budget for regulating the drug industry comes from the drug industry itself, in the form of fees paid to speed up the process of drug approval."
-
From the same state that gave us Ronald Reagan. The times, they are a changin'.
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Here's more: In Canada, the drug companies cannot advertise to their drugs directly to the consumer, i.e TV and radio commercials. In the US, the drug companies spend over 3 billion a year on advertising. Guess who pays for this? That's right, the average Joe. Just like any other product you buy, advertising costs are built into the price of drugs.
False
All drugs and health products approved by Health Canada can be advertized.
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Another reason: The Canadian govt puts caps on how much drugs cost there. That's a good thing right? WRONG! .. unless you are Canadian or buy there. The drug companies have to make a profit to stay in business so they absorb their losses in Canada and make up for it by raising prices elsewhere... like the US.
Not quite
unlike the portrayal in the popular media, not all prescription drugs have regulated prices in Canada; only those with existing patents may be subject to price controls (Anis & Wen, 1998).
To determine what constitutes an excessive price, the PMPRB compares the prices of the drug in other industrialized countries, the prices of similar drugs used to treat the same illness in Canada, and changes in the Canadian consumer price index (PMPRB, 2003). (Note: The PMPRB compares the price of Canadian drugs with the average price of the same drug in France, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Switzerland, Great Britain, and the United States). These regulations essentially create a price ceiling for certain drugs. Additionally, the provincial health plans are responsible for negotiating a price with drug manufacturers. Since these provincial health plans act as a single-payer system, they have considerable monopsony power in negotiating prices (Anis & Wen, 1998; Pecorino, 2002). Monopsony refers to the situation in which there is a single demander of a good or service; this is analogous to the more familiar monopoly in which there is one supplier.
Originally posted by SteveBailey
another: The exchange rate: while this has evened out recently, in recent past the Canadian dollar was only at 60 to 70% of the US dollar.
Not quite. US market is closed for drug imports ie protected market with unrestricted pricing....
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Another: The costs of the FDA. This could be construed as part of R&D. It is the FDA's job to " take clear steps to try to make sure that those products are safe and effective, or accurately labeled, not misbranded, not adulterated"
In Canada for instance, there is no entity like the FDA.
Wrong.
Ever heard of Health Canada?
Originally posted by SteveBailey
This is why the drug companies had such a fit over American buyers buying drugs online from Canada. It isn't greed, it's simple economics. They cannot afford to sell their products at Canadian costs worldwide
BS
-
Boy does this thread need one of these:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/257_1198872437_smiley27[1].gif)
(shamelessly stolen from the FDB site)
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Here's more: In Canada, the drug companies cannot advertise to their drugs directly to the consumer, i.e TV and radio commercials. In the US, the drug companies spend over 3 billion a year on advertising. Guess who pays for this? That's right, the average Joe. Just like any other product you buy, advertising costs are built into the price of drugs.
Something about this has never set right with me....drug companies advertising prescription medicine directly to the consumer. They already 'advertise' directly to the providers; the only thing I can come up with is that the drug companies want more money and so they advertise to the consumer. That just pushes up the price of the pill; why don't they take that 3 billion and drop the prices or put it in R&D?
And crockett, do you think drug companies are in the business of drugs just to make money? I'd sure hope not, eh?
-
Originally posted by Fury
Something about this has never set right with me....drug companies advertising prescription medicine directly to the consumer. They already 'advertise' directly to the providers; the only thing I can come up with is that the drug companies want more money and so they advertise to the consumer. That just pushes up the price of the pill; why don't they take that 3 billion and drop the prices or put it in R&D?
And crockett, do you think drug companies are in the business of drugs just to make money? I'd sure hope not, eh?
Well how else would we know that we had little carton monsters living under our toenails?
-
All reasonable arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, I am not comforted by the thought that our government, the government that has guaranteed the future insolvency of the social security system, may take over the health-care system.
Label me paranoid and cynical.
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Here's an eye opener for you:
"Approximately half of the FDA’s budget for regulating the drug industry comes from the drug industry itself, in the form of fees paid to speed up the process of drug approval."
OOOH MY GOD :O
TIGERESS
-
crock-it.. If I am failing to understand you it is because you are not making yourself clear because.. .as usual.. you really don't even know what you think.
If you claim that every other civilized country in the world has a workable system as you have done... then you must be for socialized medicine where those who won't pay get their care paid for by those who can.
You can put it any way you want but if you want to copy other countries as you claim then what you want is socialized medicine. You want to limit what people providing a service can charge and do that by force of government. You also want to take away money from some to pay for others. you did not deny this earlier.. earlier you said that was fine with you since you were forced to pay for stuff you didn't want all the time.
so, I asked you if you thought that doing one thing wrong gave us a reason to add to that and you never answered.. instead... you went on to some BS about me not understanding something as simple as warming and cooling happening to the planet. and... you started spouting off on "regulation"
What "regulation" would you impose that would give everyone health insurance and not be socialism... not extort from some to pay others? What regulations would you impose?
lazs
-
Drug advertizing...
Saw a new one just the other day on TV... when listing possible side effects they said... "and may ocassionally be fatal" as if they were talking about bloating or something :huh
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by Shuckins
All reasonable arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, I am not comforted by the thought that our government, the government that has guaranteed the future insolvency of the social security system, may take over the health-care system.
Label me paranoid and cynical.
Amen to that! Perhaps France can be contracted to run it.
This is the age of globalization and out-sourcing, is it not?
hahahahahaha :rofl
TIGERESS
-
Originally posted by lazs2
crock-it.. If I am failing to understand you it is because you are not making yourself clear because.. .as usual.. you really don't even know what you think.
If you claim that every other civilized country in the world has a workable system as you have done... then you must be for socialized medicine where those who won't pay get their care paid for by those who can.
You can put it any way you want but if you want to copy other countries as you claim then what you want is socialized medicine. You want to limit what people providing a service can charge and do that by force of government. You also want to take away money from some to pay for others. you did not deny this earlier.. earlier you said that was fine with you since you were forced to pay for stuff you didn't want all the time.
so, I asked you if you thought that doing one thing wrong gave us a reason to add to that and you never answered.. instead... you went on to some BS about me not understanding something as simple as warming and cooling happening to the planet. and... you started spouting off on "regulation"
What "regulation" would you impose that would give everyone health insurance and not be socialism... not extort from some to pay others? What regulations would you impose?
lazs
Larz if you would stop arguing with me just for sport, long enough to read what I posted. You would see how I think we can drastically cut the cost of health care in this country. Without costing you a penny more in taxes. You would save money.
Yes I would love free quality health care. However Im' smart enough to understand it will never happen in this country. Hence the reason I have said "AFFORDABLE" health care over and over and over. yet youi keep ignoring that and continue on and on with the same rant about commie's.
Steve sorry man you come up with a lot of stuff there but being in the profession or not, I don't think you know everything about it.
Really man do you honestly think they would sell their products in Canada if they were losing money? Sorry bud I don't buy it.
2bighorn has it on the mark as far as Im' concerned.
Oh and you brought up commercials as a reason. Lets get real man. Why do companies advertise? Simple so they can sell more product. Do we really need advertising for every drug on the market.
Last time I checked it's the doctor whom is supposed to know what to prescribe his patents. I never knew I was supposed to tell him what I wanted because I saw it on TV or in a magazine.
While Canada's system might not be perfect, I've yet to ever hear a Canadian whom would trade their system for ours. They damn sure have the right aditude toward their price caps.
-
Bighorn, you're just being an argumentative *******. I'm trying to have a civil conversation. save your text, you are on my ignore list.
-
Originally posted by Tigeress
Amen to that! Perhaps France can be contracted to run it.
This is the age of globalization and out-sourcing, is it not?
hahahahahaha :rofl
TIGERESS
That's probably the best solution yet. :rofl
-
Another reason: The Canadian govt puts caps on how much drugs cost there. That's a good thing right? WRONG! .. unless you are Canadian or buy there. The drug companies have to make a profit to stay in business so they absorb their losses in Canada and make up for it by raising prices elsewhere... like the US.
The retail price of drugs in the US is much higher. The money the drugs companies receive from sales is similar in both countries (and the UK, Germany etc) is actually much the same.
That's because the big insurance companies in the US negotiate the same sort of discounts foreign governments do. So the vast majority of drug sales in the US are well below retail price.
The difference is foreign governments typically negotiate prices that apply throughout the country, whereas insurance companies only want low prices on their own purchases. That's why an individual in the US has to pay so much more for his pharmaceuticals.
The end result is that the drug companies make their profits in all countries, at similar levels. Those who get drugs through their insurance companies in the US get the same sort of deal Canadians do. The only ones paying more are small numbers of retail purchasers in the US.
-
so you are saying that all we have to do is tell doctors and medicine companies how much they can sell their products for?
Yet.. you go and use canada as an example of how it can all work and that is socialized medicine.
How can you claim to not be for socialized medicine when you praise socialized medicine?
But.. tell me again.. how are you going to make it all affordable.
I can tell you how to do it.
Simply roll back treatment to 1950.. no procedure or medicine that didn't exist in 1950 can be used here. the costs will plummet. should cost about $25 a month tops.
lazs
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Bighorn, you're just being an argumentative *******. I'm trying to have a civil conversation. save your text, you are on my ignore list.
Didn't want to hurt your feelings. I'm just pointing out some facts.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
so you are saying that all we have to do is tell doctors and medicine companies how much they can sell their products for?
Yet.. you go and use canada as an example of how it can all work and that is socialized medicine.
How can you claim to not be for socialized medicine when you praise socialized medicine?
But.. tell me again.. how are you going to make it all affordable.
I can tell you how to do it.
Simply roll back treatment to 1950.. no procedure or medicine that didn't exist in 1950 can be used here. the costs will plummet. should cost about $25 a month tops.
lazs
Never mind it's not even worth arguing about it with you.
-
I don't think you know everything about it.
You are certainly 100% right about that. I don't.
The information I posted was from papers and articles written on the subject by assorted authors and researchers. I glean my information the same way you do, I read it somewhere or watch it on TV, or the occasional conversation w/ a Doc/hospital administrator. I have done a lot of reading about it, my wife recently had to do reasearch on it for school.
Think about this though. in one thought you say the hospitals are price gouging us. In another sentence you say hospitals are going out of busniess(financial failure). They can't really be doing both.
My point is not to score here, it is to show that in order for us to have cheaper health care. we need to lower the operating costs of the system.
I'm with you, I'd like to see all of our citizens have access to the best of care. Unfortunately, getting there would involve some very hard choices for politicians who are too cowardly to act.(not just dems... all of the paid off, unethical turds).
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
You are certainly 100% right about that. I don't.
The information I posted was from papers and articles written on the subject by assorted authors and researchers. I glean my information the same way you do, I read it somewhere or watch it on TV, or the occasional conversation w/ a Doc/hospital administrator. I have done a lot of reading about it, my wife recently had to do reasearch on it for school.
Think about this though. in one thought you say the hospitals are price gouging us. In another sentence you say hospitals are going out of busniess(financial failure). They can't really be doing both.
My point is not to score here, it is to show that in order for us to have cheaper health care. we need to lower the operating costs of the system.
I'm with you, I'd like to see all of our citizens have access to the best of care. Unfortunately, getting there would involve some very hard choices for politicians who are too cowardly to act.(not just dems... all of the paid off, unethical turds).
The ones whom I've heard about going out of business tend to be in large cities in the poor areas of town. I know there were a bunch that closed in Cali several years back and of course that's likely due to the illegals.
The others tend to be inner city hospitals in low income areas. Simple logic tells me the people for one reason or another can't or don't pay their bills so the hospital is forced to close.
That doesn't mean that they wern't price gouging it just means people couldn't pay their bills. Which kinda almost proves my point about the fact it simply cost far too much.
When you add in the fact that hospitals are notorious for changing $5+ for just a aspirin well the argument is already slated against them.
Hell with the wreck I had, I sat in the emergency waiting room for something like 2 hours b4 they even gave me a triage. At that point they put a neck brace on me that the billed the insurance company something close to $100 for it.
Now I had sat there in the waiting room for 2 hours and aperantly didn't need a neck brace, yet it was covenant enough to use on my so they could bill the insurance company. I mean I was sooo glad they were so worried that I might have a neck injury 2 hours after I had signed in.
I think they just wanted to bill the insurance company for it. So inreality if the hospitals can't make it will out that kinda BS. We there is no other option than to have more govt funding. I mean lets get real here the entire system is broken and it's not going to fix it's self.
-
Originally posted by crockett
I think they just wanted to bill the insurance company for it. So inreality if the hospitals can't make it will out that kinda BS. We there is no other option than to have more govt funding. I mean lets get real here the entire system is broken and it's not going to fix it's self.
Maybe they put it on just as a preventative measure. I mean think what would happen if you walk in, possible neck/whiplash complaints, they give no brace, you turn your head and something snaps & you become paralized. Think of the lawsuit & potential claim! It is just they world we live in. Also, how much do you guess it costs to run an ER for an hour? what would personnel costs be? Overhead, fixed costs? recouping costs for the equipment?
You want something which is more affordable, for who? you or everyone?
Government steps in to fix it, it may be more affordable for some, but more expensive for others. People that make money and pay a huge portion of the taxes all ready will be paying more to cover health care for those that choose not to buy it or can't afford it. I am glad I don't have to choose to get rid of coverage over a meager $130 prescription the insurance wouldn't cover. To choose not to have it, especially if it is available for you to purchase is significantly irresponsible.
-
Originally posted by BigGun
Maybe they put it on just as a preventative measure. I mean think what would happen if you walk in, possible neck/whiplash complaints, they give no brace, you turn your head and something snaps & you become paralized. Think of the lawsuit & potential claim! It is just they world we live in. Also, how much do you guess it costs to run an ER for an hour? what would personnel costs be? Overhead, fixed costs? recouping costs for the equipment?
You want something which is more affordable, for who? you or everyone?
Government steps in to fix it, it may be more affordable for some, but more expensive for others. People that make money and pay a huge portion of the taxes all ready will be paying more to cover health care for those that choose not to buy it or can't afford it. I am glad I don't have to choose to get rid of coverage over a meager $130 prescription the insurance wouldn't cover. To choose not to have it, especially if it is available for you to purchase is significantly irresponsible.
Yea well if that was the case, why not do it when I first walked in the door? They waited two hours to do it and soon as the doctor saw me he took it off told me and said I didn't need it.
I'd buy the preventive measure had they done it soon as I checked in. That's like letting someone bleed to death and then giving them a blood transfusion anmd hoping you don't get sued.
-
Originally posted by crockett
That doesn't mean that they wern't price gouging it just means people couldn't pay their bills.
Why would they gouge prices and make it so people couldn't pay? How can you see this makes no sense?
These low income areas also happened to be heavily populated by illegal aliens.
The thing is, if you get govt involved and they force lower prices, more hospitals will go bankrupt, there wil be a greater shortage of Dr's and nurses. It's obvious.
If govt gets involved in helping pay bills for people,. who is going to pay for it? Nothing from the Govt is free. Someone always pays. Why do you expect those who choose to support themselves to support others who choose to be parasitic?
What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded andclosed some of America’s finest emergency medical facilities, and
caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing
their doors. Anchor babies born to illegal aliens instantly qualify
as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in
Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income
and Disability Income
many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis,
malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue, and Chagas disease.
In 1994, 74,987 anchor babies in California hospital maternity units cost $215 million and
constituted 36 percent of all Medi-Cal births. Now they account for
substantially more than half.
This is really obscene: When Linda Torres was arrested in Bakersfield, California with about $8,500 in small bills in a sack, the police originally thought it was stolen money. It was her SSI lump sum award for her disability: heroin addiction.
Until people admit that the illegal alien population is eroding our infrastructure, our country will continue its' sprial to third world status.
-
Originally posted by texasmom
Key term there is: "fail to take care of themselves"
Lesson: if you make poor choices, you suffer the consequences. Get up, dust yourself off & make better choices. What are we, babysitters to adults?
If someone screws up, let them suffer. That will factor in to their decision making process the next time they're choosing between screwing up & doing right.
A lot of people are born with problems, Is it their fault too?
-
Steve, I have to agree, that is really obscene!:O
-
Originally posted by SteveBailey
Why would they gouge prices and make it so people couldn't pay? How can you see this makes no sense?
These low income areas also happened to be heavily populated by illegal aliens.
The thing is, if you get govt involved and they force lower prices, more hospitals will go bankrupt, there wil be a greater shortage of Dr's and nurses. It's obvious.
If govt gets involved in helping pay bills for people,. who is going to pay for it? Nothing from the Govt is free. Someone always pays. Why do you expect those who choose to support themselves to support others who choose to be parasitic?
This is really obscene:
Until people admit that the illegal alien population is eroding our infrastructure, our country will continue its' sprial to third world status.
You claim to be in the medical profession and you have never heard of false billing?
In reguards to illegals.. Yea we all know the problems they create, and every politician talks tough on TV about them. At the end of the day they never do a thing about them.
Why do you think that is? Could it be our economy needs the cheap labor yet we are just afraid to say it in public.
I honestly can't blame an illegal for wanting to come here. Would you not try to better yourself and feed your family? We are never going to stop people from coming here for that very reason. The only way we will ever stop it, is to pump money into Mexico to help it build a stable economy there.
My dad has a construction company and can never find stable help. Hell he pays them good and treats them good yet none ever want to work.
One day my dad was otw to work and saw this kid walking down the street. He gave him a ride and ended up giving him a job. Hell we had the kid over for Christmas because he has no family here as he's from Mexico.
Hell my dad and step mother ended up giving him a room and a place to stay, because the kid works his bellybutton off. He's 18 or 19 years old and barely speaks a word of English, but he's learning. He has an ID but I'm pretty sure he's likely an illegal.
Yea know what? I say send 10 more if they work as hard as this kid does.
Sorry, illegal or not, IMO that kid has more right to be here than half the lazy tulips that were born in this country. That's a simple fact.
The problem is, we can't stop them from getting here and no matter what some like to claim. They aren't all bad useless criminals, most of them just want a better life. You can build a 20 ft wall and waste a bunch of money doing it and they will still get here. The only solution is for them not to have a reason to come here.
-
Occasionally you hear of doctors here rorting the medicare system, charging long consults for shorter standard ones. They lose their licences and are heavily fined when they are caught.
The medicare levy pays for the bulk of our health care system. It even can be levied on unemployment and pension benefits.
-
Under a national health care system, what would happen to all those fat juicy multimillion dollar lawsuits filed by rapacious liberal attorneys like that phoney hair-do boy Edwards?
Would the govt just stand idly by and allow itself to be repeatedly sued for what would no doubt be justifiable negligence cases? Or would the govt impose a ban on medical lawsuits... hmmm
-
so you guys are saying that the high cost of health care and insurance has to to only with price gouging?
that we could all buy cheap insurance and still pay for all the illegals and anyone who chose not to work or pay by simply regulating profit?
That we have a lousy medical system that has created no new drugs or procedures worth the money?
The government controls medicare. it is a failure and a money pit. Medicare covers millions of people who all pay into it.
Why does the government not try all these inovative plans with medicare? they can "negotiate" for care and drugs on a county wide level and give the drugs and service to the people on medicare.
Shouldn't medicare be the best system in America if simply have a government run program is the answer?
lazs
-
You claim to be in the medical profession and you have never heard of false billing?
Are you implying I'm not telling the truth? "I claim" ?
why don't you explain to me what false billing is? Go ahead.
I know what fraudulant billing is.. never heard of false billing.
IMO that kid has more right to be here than half the lazy tulips that were born in this country. That's a simple fact.
Exactly what is a simple fact? Go ahead, tell me all about it for once instead of ignoring my questions and changing the subject. Just once, support your assertions instead of moving on when challenged.
They are criminals. They have NO right to be here. Many many of them continue their criminal ways, many of them violent. I guess that's ok with you as long as your dad can have cheap labor and no-one you care about gets hurt. You're a great guy. :aok
-
Why do you think that is? Could it be our economy needs the cheap labor yet we are just afraid to say it in public.
I think that is because most politicians are cowards and it would take a brave soul to withstand the screaming of the illegal alien activists and left wing nutjobs.
The "cheap labor" argument is vapor. Show me where our country wasn't functioning due to a labor shortage in our entire history. come on, back up your statements. Where in the history of the US did our economy fail, people starve, our armed services stop defending us for lack of cheap labor? Where? when? Show me one disaster that could have been prevented by having millions of illegal aliens providing cheap labor... just one.
Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.