Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: soda72 on December 28, 2007, 11:53:27 AM
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Midway
Japanese Air Attack on Midway, 4 June 1942
At 0430 in the morning of 4 June 1942, while 240 miles northwest of
Midway, Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo's four carriers began launching 108
planes to attack the U.S. base there. Unknown to the Japanese, three U.S.
carriers were steaming 215 miles to the east. The two opposing fleets sent
out search planes, the Americans to locate an enemy they knew was there
and the Japanese as a matter of operational prudence.
For Information about the AvA:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=44
Axis - Rooks
-A6M2
-D3A1
-B5N2
Allies - Knights
-F4F
-SBD
-TBM
-B26
-B17
Other settings:
kill shooter on
Friendly collisions are off
Fuel burn is 2.00
armored AAA at 0.25
hard AAA at 1.25
soft AAA at 1.25
We'll try these settings and see how it goes.. If the map doesn't work out for the AvA, i'll reload avasml with forks setup....
Allies
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g185/s0da72/allies_midway.jpg)
Axis
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g185/s0da72/axis_midway.jpg)
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(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g185/s0da72/ahss7_midway.jpg)
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Biggest map Iv ever seen. It will take hours just to find a fight.
If I were you I would disable troop planes/GVs and make down times less then 5secs, and CV hardness at max. Theres going to be people trying to sink the CVs and ruining the fights.
Also since the map is soooo huge the fleets are pretty much going to be one huge one. So best bet is to make all ack 0.10 or so. You get within range of 2 or 3 fleets with all that puff ack its like people shooting 5"ers.
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so you turned off dar? how else can this be "historic"?
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AAA has been changed to.....
armored AAA at 0.15
hard AAA at 0.15
soft AAA at 0.15
Bomber formations has been disabled....
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I'm somewhat baffled as to why B-17Gs and B-26s and TBMs are enabled on a June 1942 setup...
Psssst! B-25C perhaps better than any of those.
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They may not be the exact models needed for the map, but they should be ok for subs.... the b-17, b26, and TBF were all present during the battle,,,
However if it's hurts game play in the AvA they will be taken out...
Having taken off prior to the Japanese attack, American bombers based on Midway made several attacks on the Japanese carrier fleet. These included six TBF Avengers in their first combat operation, and four B-26 Marauders (armed with torpedoes). The Japanese shrugged off these attacks with almost no losses, while destroying all but three of the American bombers.[32]
Battle of Midway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Midway)
Grumman TBF Avenger (designated TBM for aircraft manufactured by General Motors) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TBF_Avenger)
Photo #USAF 75712AC Hiryu Under B-17 attack at Midway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hiryu_f075712.jpg)
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Well, technically the version AH has is a mid-1944 model, up-engined, and with wing hardpoints (and more fuel, I think). And according to the wiki link all of 6 made it into Midway.
I bring it up for the sake of debate. When the only plane the axis have is the A6M2, the TBM is pretty much overkill, and the B-17? Forget about it. It's a meat grinder compared to the B/C models around in '42. Also, -26Bs such as the one modeled in AH are early '43 models. The earlier mid-'42 models were mostly used in Europe, and had less defensive armaments (single tail gun, single 30cal tunnel gun, other changes)
You could put the B-29 in for all I care :D
I'm just saying, don't expect to kill any with the axis planes you have listed :cool:
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If the B26's were loaded with torpedos they should be taken out. In AH level bombing is too effective against CVs.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The earlier mid-'42 models were mostly used in Europe, and had less defensive armaments (single tail gun, single 30cal tunnel gun, other changes)
Originally posted by Raptor
If the B26's were loaded with torpedos they should be taken out. In AH level bombing is too effective against CVs.
Substitute JU88?
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The SBD-5 is also a 1943 aircraft with better performance than the SBDs used at Midway.
It'd be ok I guess if the 1942 D3A2 had been added instead of the 1936 D3A1.
But against the US planes in this setup the Japanese have no chance. Only the F4F-4 is correct, all other American aircraft are a year or more too modern.
All of the Japanese aircraft are correct.
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I've scanned through the comment's with the set up and be it after I played in it all night and I report that you have to try it before you bash it.
This set up is a piece or original & unique match ups that seem to play out in an unusual mannor. I mean that no side can take claim to an advantage & unlike most set ups in the SEA or AvA we don't know who will win the day based on the MOTD. In other word's we have a fair fight!
All night the side's pushed back and forth in a way you can't seem to find in the MA or in an FSO anymore.
This is just down right fun game play! Thanks to Soda72 for providing the concept for it :) WTG
As for the timeline of the planes... every one can just shut up right now. We all had a chance to vote in a new plane not to long ago & we elected to get a new American bomber (the B25).
The set up guy's have to work with what we have & we have giant holes in plane set's. Where is the HE111 or the Betty? So until the plane set is complete or close to it we have to deal with it.
MGD
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Havn't flown in it a whole lot but I like it. Nice change and if you get erked off about getting shot down too much you can always lay out on the beach and sip a beer:D
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And of course if it's a stale night and there's no one else on in the AvA... you can always find a nice spot under a palm to relax:aok
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Originally posted by Imoutfishing
I've scanned through the comment's with the set up and be it after I played in it all night and I report that you have to try it before you bash it.
This set up is a piece or original & unique match ups that seem to play out in an unusual mannor. I mean that no side can take claim to an advantage & unlike most set ups in the SEA or AvA we don't know who will win the day based on the MOTD. In other word's we have a fair fight!
All night the side's pushed back and forth in a way you can't seem to find in the MA or in an FSO anymore.
This is just down right fun game play! Thanks to Soda72 for providing the concept for it :) WTG
As for the timeline of the planes... every one can just shut up right now. We all had a chance to vote in a new plane not to long ago & we elected to get a new American bomber (the B25).
The set up guy's have to work with what we have & we have giant holes in plane set's. Where is the HE111 or the Betty? So until the plane set is complete or close to it we have to deal with it.
MGD
Agreed, on all points. I believe everyone who was in there last night had a great time. In addition to being a good plane set, the map is just plain beautiful, and Soda has hit the carrier hardness and locations right on the button. Bomber people get to practice their trade without destroying the fight.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Karnak
But against the US planes in this setup the Japanese have no chance.
The A6M2 owns the setup in one on one encounters. In multi plane fights things even out some because you have to work hard to bring down the heavily armored Navy Planes and the Zeke is quite fragile.
In fact the Zeke is so maneuverable I was successful several times with half of my elevator gone.
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PTO setups are usually among the least popular with the AvA. The planes available for a PTO setups is limited and do not match up very well when looking for 1 on 1 fights. As Kong already mentioned if you can find a multi plane fight things become much more interesting with the setup. The f4f-4 has a better chance in pairs even if multiple zekes come in with an alt advantage. If you can put aside the urge to HO the fights can last for several minutes and are quite fun...
The 1 on 1 fights can be fun as well, but make sure you come in with reasonable expectations. If you're planning on turn fighting a zeke 1 on 1 in a f4f don't expect to win, just enjoy it for what it is. If you can last 30 seconds without 'extending' away you've done real good. Sometimes you can get the zeke driver to make a mistake, and make him pay for it, but don't count on that happening to often.
In any case even if you are shot down, the CV's are close enough to get back into the fight within a couple of minutes. The ability to get back into the fight quickly after being shotdown is what really makes this setup fun. The planes in this setup have been used before, but it's the map that has made it fun.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Well, technically the version AH has is a mid-1944 model, up-engined, and with wing hardpoints (and more fuel, I think). And according to the wiki link all of 6 made it into Midway.
I bring it up for the sake of debate. When the only plane the axis have is the A6M2, the TBM is pretty much overkill, and the B-17? Forget about it. It's a meat grinder compared to the B/C models around in '42. Also, -26Bs such as the one modeled in AH are early '43 models. The earlier mid-'42 models were mostly used in Europe, and had less defensive armaments (single tail gun, single 30cal tunnel gun, other changes)
Krusty, The B-17s deployed to Midway were B-17Es, the same type that the 8th AF began combat operational missions with. Same armament as the G model, except it didn't have the chin turret. Inasmuch as the Zeros can barely catch a B-17, they will almost certainly be attacking from the rear... With the usual consequences.
Those B-26s were A models. No difference in bomb loads.
Unnfortunately, with our laser aimed (sic) bombsight, B-17s will be very effective at killing CVs.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Unnfortunately, with our laser aimed (sic) bombsight, B-17s will be very effective at killing CVs.
I wasn't in the AvA for too terribly long last night, but with formations disabled and CV hardness jacked up, the CVs remained after several passes.
With the ack turned way down, several people were coming in low, which let the zekes catch them fairly easily. It was like launching ping pong balls against them, but the 17s did eventually go down. I personally got 3 kills against vs. one air-to-air death (a second one bombed me while taking off).
The B26s, on the other hand, were a pain in the behind. They have forward firing .50s which makes HOing them very risky, and are too fast to catch in a tail chase (unless they want to be).
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Now I see a bunch of new sit-reps :) Most of them lean to the fun side a few do not.
The one who don't see the big picture with out question voted in the B25 and thus helped crippled the efforts to create progessive scenerios like we have in the AvA now.
Get in here and try it. The current set up offers something for everyone given the plane set they have to work with.
Anything less is hear say and unfounded.
MGD
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I think Midway is the most balanced PTO setup AH can offer at the moment.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Krusty, The B-17s deployed to Midway were B-17Es, the same type that the 8th AF began combat operational missions with. Same armament as the G model, except it didn't have the chin turret. Inasmuch as the Zeros can barely catch a B-17, they will almost certainly be attacking from the rear... With the usual consequences.
My regards,
Widewing
Just to back up Widewing on this one. The RAF experiment with the early B17Cs/Fortress I's ended in November 41 with all the lessons learned. There were not early model 17s in combat in the ETO in 42/43. It started with E models on the first few raids and quickly progressed to the F
In the Pacific this was true as well as the early 17s were pretty much gone or relegated to training duties by early 42 as most of those in combat were lost in the Phillipines. The 5th AF went to war with E models and then Fs.
I can post a nice photo of an E model on the field at Pearl on December 7, 1941 as well.
This image is two 17Es at Midway during the battle. The one on the left has the ball turret while the one taking off has the remote belly turret that was less then successful.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/midway17s.jpg)
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That sure is a pretty terrain. Well done!
I popped in yesterday for a bit. Nobody in there, so I did touch and go's in a B-26 for a while. Somebody (Soda?) outdid themselves on that terrain.
Too bad this can't have a bigger population. This is THE setup I've been waiting for.
Again, nice job AvA staff!
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I believe Raptor made the terrain.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Somebody (Soda?) outdid themselves on that terrain.
That would be Raptor and the CM team... They did a great job....
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Originally posted by Widewing
Inasmuch as the Zeros can barely catch a B-17, they will almost certainly be attacking from the rear... With the usual consequences.
In reality didn't B-17s normally cruise at about 180mph giving the A6M2's 300+mph a rather significant overtake?
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This set-up has been so much fun that I decided to post some pics to possibly generate more interest. The map is awesome, the set-up well tuned, the fights quick to find, and the battles are fierce.
#1 is a nice view of Midway, with the classic matchup F-4F vs. A6M2. Here, I think Oldman is about to make me auger my Zeke (again), but it's a great shot.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051816_midway12sm.jpg)
#2 Shows the effect of the A6M2's turning ability on frustrating a pair of P-40B's. This shot was selected due to its nice visual appeal.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051842_midway02sm.jpg)
#3 This a shot a second later from the perspective of the second P-40B. Things are looking grim, but help is on the way!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051868_midway05sm.jpg)
#4 Shows the same engagement, where the 1v2 has become 2v2 and is just now transitioning to a 2v1 (and eventual 2v0). This was a great fight, and notice that spectacular sky!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051890_midway06sm.jpg)
#5 Shows where not to be relative to an FM2.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051911_midway07sm.jpg)
#6 Is after a banzai charge into 5 cons, and an attempt to use KILLSHOOTER as my wingman to take on this pair of FM2's. It didn't work, but I giggled all the way to the tower at how close it was.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051931_midway08sm.jpg)
#7 Is, um, me probably not gonna land this one, but it is a spectacular death.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051971_midway09sm.jpg)
#8 Shows how proper flap management allows the P-40B to dance successfully with the A6M2. This is a split second before I'm choosing another free cartoon airplane.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199051992_midway10sm.jpg)
#9 Shows that the F-4F really can knife fight with the A6M2. Don't believe those who say that it cannot. The Wildcat is very tough, and can accept some shots to get position. This sortie drifted all the way from Midway to the IJN fleet. Every time I got a pair of Zero's down to a single, another would show up. It was a blast, and the number of holes I landed with some 15 minutes later was impressive.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1144_1199052012_midway11sm.jpg)
I still die much more than I kill, but I am having fun, and this set-up has been the most fun I've had in a while. If you haven't stopped by, please consider doing so.
to all those involved with this set-up! :aok
EDIT: I shrunk the pics to 1/2 size, full size available upon request.
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nice pics
:)
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Thank you for posting those Geo. I had a lot of fun fighting with you last night.
And thanks for the map Raptor. Best one I've seen in my opinion!
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Glad you all are enjoying the 16 square miles of coral:aok
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Raptor does good work doesn't he? :)
Show off!
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Originally posted by soda72
As Kong already mentioned if you can find a multi plane fight things become much more interesting with the setup. The f4f-4 has a better chance in pairs even if multiple zekes come in with an alt advantage. If you can put aside the urge to HO the fights can last for several minutes and are quite fun...
The 1 on 1 fights can be fun as well, but make sure you come in with reasonable expectations. If you're planning on turn fighting a zeke 1 on 1 in a f4f don't expect to win, just enjoy it for what it is. If you can last 30 seconds without 'extending' away you've done real good. Sometimes you can get the zeke driver to make a mistake, and make him pay for it, but don't count on that happening to often.
Agreed on all points here.
I absolutely got pwn'd repeatedly yesterday in the F4F. There are some hella bad blind spots in that plane- I'd say I got killed 3 times and never even knew the guy was back there until my blood was splattered all over the canopy (olklok, I'm looking at you...you too MGD).
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"Toonces, check six you got a zeke on your tail."
Thinking: What, that guy 2.0k out? He's no threat.
BAM BAM BAM! "What the....?"
HOST: Olklok shot you down.
HOST: You have been killed.
"WHERE THE HELL DID THAT GUY COME FROM?!!!?"
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Okllok picks, that's why he goes from 2.0K to zero in no time.
Then he runs runs runs runs runs. FAR away as fast as he can... And since he's in an FM-2 you can't catch him.
He's ruined quite a number of good fights with those tactics. I don't even go in the arena when he's there any more.
Love the map. Enjoy the Zeke... But it seems a lot slower than it should be, especially with the FM-2 there.
Takes all day to catch Buffs in it and then you die... Boring.
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Love the map and the setup. Actually getting spoiled by its beauty and have little interest going into standard maps.
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Love the AvA arena, been my fav since it was the CT, used to go by HiJacker but was off for a bit. I still see some of the old faces (when you get real close lol) and a lot of new ones. Sure do miss the old VF27 days, was a lot of fun then too. Midway is great, I get killed alot mostly by KONG, he always has my number (better than me) you would think that as long as I have been at this I would be pretty good, but i usually end up on the recieving end of a long burst, but boy do i have fun!:lol
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Originally posted by Skull-1
Okllok picks, that's why he goes from 2.0K to zero in no time.
Then he runs runs runs runs runs. FAR away as fast as he can... And since he's in an FM-2 you can't catch him.
He's ruined quite a number of good fights with those tactics. I don't even go in the arena when he's there any more.
Love the map. Enjoy the Zeke... But it seems a lot slower than it should be, especially with the FM-2 there.
Takes all day to catch Buffs in it and then you die... Boring.
FYI The FM2 isn't enabled. The F4F-4 is. The F4F-4 is only faster than the A6m2 under 4k. Above that the A6m overtakes it at all altitudes. Also, if the zero stays at 5k and the wildcat goes to the deck, the zero will outrun it and catch up to it.
The wildcat is the weaker plane by far, with 1000fpm less climb rate, less speed at all but the deck, twice the turn radius, lack of cannons (not an issue against the a6m2 though), and the views available.
Might want to consider that before saying things are unfair for zero pilots :D
I agree on principle about the bombers, though.
P.S. Here ya go, F4F-4 vs A6m2:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=f4f4&p2=a6m2
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Originally posted by Krusty
FYI The FM2 isn't enabled. The F4F-4 is. The F4F-4 is only faster than the A6m2 under 4k. Above that the A6m overtakes it at all altitudes. Also, if the zero stays at 5k and the wildcat goes to the deck, the zero will outrun it and catch up to it.
The wildcat is the weaker plane by far, with 1000fpm less climb rate, less speed at all but the deck, twice the turn radius, lack of cannons (not an issue against the a6m2 though), and the views available.
Might want to consider that before saying things are unfair for zero pilots :D
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Krusty the times that I was in there the fights were otd. Theres no need to gain alt untill okpick comes in. Even then hes always 5k+ above the fight waiting for a 1v1 to start so he can dive in.
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I don't doubt it. One reason I stopped flying in AvA. Not him, but everybody in general does it.
But I wouldn't blame the plane (as skull was) when it's pretty much out-classed by the zero in this setup.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I don't doubt it. One reason I stopped flying in AvA. Not him, but everybody in general does it.
But I wouldn't blame the plane (as skull was) when it's pretty much out-classed by the zero in this setup.
Skull isn't wrong, Krusty, the FM2 is enabled here. See the other thread.
- oldman
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The other thread? I missed that one. I was going off of the first post in THIS thread, which said F4F-4, hehe.
Okay, then. I'm sorry, my mistake!
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Since today is the last day
A6M2
f4f
have been disabled
and
f6f
p40e
and
a6m5b is enabled
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well, i didn't mean this as a bash on okllok (or MGD). in 4v4 engagement, if i'm getting picked, that's poor SA on my part.
i say good flying. i can't pick for crap.
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are you crazy soda....take the f4f out and place a f6 with all them 50 cals. against only a little zeke. OMG the japs aint got a chance now........oh wait a min...u can't make everybody happy i guess...lol
the way i see it is if it aint a challenge then whats the point of trying all
although the 4v1 thing really does suck. others should have honor and expand there fighting capabilities
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Both the p40 and the F6F are doing really good vs the 0s. F6F is almost unteachable by them