Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Ghastly on December 31, 2007, 09:35:23 AM
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Can you reasonably expect to be able to kill tanks with the armament on the -1C?
If so, is there another effective method other than coming in from behind and aiming for the base of the turret?
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The Hispanos will track them, but other than that all you'll do is run up the hits and get the kill when someone single-pings him with an AP round or bomb.
The 2x1000lb bombs she carries are the best method of killing Ostwinds, M4s, Panzers, and T-34s. Tigers, however, are bomb-proof. :rolleyes: The US HVARs aren't as effective tank-killers as some of the German or Russian rockets, however at the very least you should track them.
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A yak 9t from the rear on most tanks will get you a kill out right just use the 37mm only so your sure of where your hitting the tank.
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Originally posted by lyric1
A yak 9t from the rear on most tanks will get you a kill out right just use the 37mm only so your sure of where your hitting the tank.
I'd like to see film of this.
The 37 mm on the T is HE and not AP.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Tigers, however, are bomb-proof. :rolleyes:
Nearly bomb-proof. 1 1000 lb bomb placed properly will kill them. I've gotten quite good at it :)
What makes the Tiger so tough, unlike any other armor, is that a near miss won't harm it (a near miss will kill other tanks). Beyond that, not only does it have to be a direct hit but it has to be in the proper location (on the flat behind the turret).
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i have been able to turret panzer's with the cannon's i cant do it on command but Ive done if a few times. I come in a on step angle i would guess over 75 degrees and i would get they smoking after a burst.
but bombs and rockets are the best way. Rockets you can kill a tank but more then likely you'll just track them.
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Originally posted by lyric1
A yak 9t from the rear on most tanks will get you a kill out right just use the 37mm only so your sure of where your hitting the tank.
The 40mm on the K4 are even better for that.
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Originally posted by lyric1
A yak 9t from the rear on most tanks will get you a kill out right just use the 37mm only so your sure of where your hitting the tank.
Most of the time it will just take out the gun... but this will sometimes yield you the kill once they are finished off.
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Yak-9T come in low and shoot them in the gas tank. Blow them up in 4-5 shots.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
Yak-9T come in low and shoot them in the gas tank. Blow them up in 4-5 shots.
Film
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Originally posted by trax1
The 40mm on the K4 are even better for that.
When did the k4 get a 40 mm cannon?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Either way, Vans, Tiger hardness vs. bombs needs a serious looking at. Even if 2000lbs dropped within a tank-length wouldn't be enough to blow it apart, at the very LEAST the concussion of that much explosive material would do nasty things to the crew.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
Yak-9T come in low and shoot them in the gas tank. Blow them up in 4-5 shots.
With Bronk on this one... Film
I fly the 9T a lot and have not done it before. Only got the gun.
Originally posted by Saxman
Either way, Vans, Tiger hardness vs. bombs needs a serious looking at. Even if 2000lbs dropped within a tank-length wouldn't be enough to blow it apart, at the very LEAST the concussion of that much explosive material would do nasty things to the crew.
I have been saying this for a while Saxman. If you dropped a 1k egg short it would still cause enough damage to the crew from the shock wave. Hitting short on the sides would still jack it up enough to stop it (tracked). Been a big issue, but what do I know being an ordnance guy. :rolleyes:
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a direct hit w/ @ a 500lbs egg will kill a Tiger.
(@=250kg works too)
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Originally posted by WMLute
(@=250kg works too)
Give or take 51.155655lbs. :D
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I've tried the YakT at busting GV's, forget it it wont happen.
You might get lucky IF the tank took that much damage already, but the weapon is with high explosive rounds not armor piercing. B-25's gun can pierce a tank with HE round from the rear because were talking about a 75mm vs a 37mm both are slow velocity.
Hurricane D model had pair of 40mm 2pound anti tank guns under the wing and can easily blow up a tiger with magic shot, or turret or disable a tank easily.
I suggest using Hurri's if ords arn't available or anything with bombs on it.
Tiger tanks are quite easy to destroy with 1000lb bombs, 500lbs I may of destroyed perhaps 2 this tour. Would say 20 tigers destroyed with 1000lbers. Overall 20+ tanks destroyed with Hurri-D only one with YakT thats after it was already damaged took my full ammo load.
F4u-C is good if your coming off a CV but a F4u-D would be no perks doing it and guns will do the same effect on an osti as F4u-C
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Originally posted by Adonai
were talking about a 75mm vs a 37mm both are slow velocity.
The Yak-T 37mm NS-37 has about the highest velocity of all guns in this game at 900m/sec. That's why this gun has such superb ballistics.
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The Hurri D can kill every GV in game, including the Tiger. But it's small volume of fire makes it less suited to attack M3's, M16's, jeep's. Attacks on Ostwinds border on suicidal for the same reason.
The Il-2 easily shreds all light armored vehicles and the Panzer IV. Sherman is a bit more difficult, you actually have to aim for the right spot there. T-34 are almost impossible to kill, and Tigers actually are. A Ostwind however is a fun target to attack with the Il-2
The B-25 can easily kill anything with it's gun package, but it's low speed, size and bad maneuverability (compared to the other tank-busters) results often in a premature death (auger, flak hits or the famous "WTF? He shot me with his tank gun!?!?!" :D)
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Originally posted by Bronk
Film
next time im bustin GV's with it i will.
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Mass defeat of tanks from the aviation cannon, widely advertised in films and memoirs, in most cases concerns to "tall stories". To punch the vertical armour of the average or heavy tank from 20-mm - 45-mm of an aviation gun simply it is impossible. Speech can go only about the armour of a roof of the tank which in is some times more thin vertical and made 15-20 mm at average and 30-40 mm at heavy tanks.
Quoted from success of NS-37 weapon vs tanks.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Nearly bomb-proof. 1 1000 lb bomb placed properly will kill them. I've gotten quite good at it :)
What makes the Tiger so tough, unlike any other armor, is that a near miss won't harm it (a near miss will kill other tanks). Beyond that, not only does it have to be a direct hit but it has to be in the proper location (on the flat behind the turret).
Why do GV drivers never suffer "pilot" wounds? a 500kg bomb hit 2 meters from the hull might not kill a Tiger but it would certainly scramble the crew's brains if not outright incapicicate [sp?] 'em.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Either way, Vans, Tiger hardness vs. bombs needs a serious looking at. Even if 2000lbs dropped within a tank-length wouldn't be enough to blow it apart, at the very LEAST the concussion of that much explosive material would do nasty things to the crew.
Its purposely i believe, 'cause there too easy to bomb gvs. They probably want to make Tiger little less vulnerable to airstrikes. As it was said above, you still can blow Tiger with 1x1000 or even 500lb, just need aim better.
btw, i told it many times - tank's crew is not affected by shockwave at all, no matter how big or close bomb was (until armour is ok and hatches are closed).
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rockets on the 190F8 will kill all tanks. just gotta get good aim first
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Thanks folks. I wasn't entirely positive whether the rounds in the -1C were HE or AP, and given that the -1C in R/L was "used to good effect in an air to ground role", I thought I might be my fault that I've not had much luck with it. But it appears as though the general consensus is that it's a pretty much a waste of time to use the -1C if your intent is to eliminate tanks - which is pretty much what I've experienced.
(And no, I don't consider doing a bunch of "unnoticed" damage that I get a kill credit for sometime later when someone actually kills it as anything but a waste of time.)
So unless someone thinks that I should be able to consistently track a tank with it (in my experience trying to track them doesn't seem to be effective either - once in a while but usually they just absorb the shells without slowing down ...) I'll stick to bombs (and/or rockets, although bombs are usually MUCH more effective for me.)
In which case I'll generally use the -1D anyway.
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Yeah tracking a tank is rather useless, would take just as long to track a tank as taking up a Hurri-D and blowing his turret out or engine or both. Quite simple instead of aiming guns at tracks, climb high above the GV from behind, dive down on top, I use my guns at 450 converg and get usually 4-6 shots off before i pull out.
On general you will more likely turret the tank, if he stops suddenly you more likely shot his engine out either way you stopped him.
I kinda enjoy tracking tanks in middle of no where though, you see them run circles for 5-10 minutes before realizing nobody is running them supplies.
It does take ALOT of practice to aim those 40mm, they are pretty easy to aim, if you want to make sure you hit and kill something set your guns to 250converg
I've used 650 in the past but seem to only hit side of the tanks at 400 out so I settled with around 400-450
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Originally posted by Overlag
rockets on the 190F8 will kill all tanks. just gotta get good aim first
CC that Overlag :) The first time I got a tiger with rockets alone I was quite amazed :D
The armor penetration values for the Pb1 (the rocket on the 190F8) will punch through ANY tank we have in game :)
But the one thing I have been trying to get out of HT (with little success) has been if AH uses strike angle in its calculations for the Pb1 (and other true HEAT rounds). Sometimes Ill get a kill on a tank (they blew up when the rockets hit) and I thought the rocket would have hit at a angle that would have defeated the round.
Something I hope HT replies to :)
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Originally posted by Bronk
I'd like to see film of this.
The 37 mm on the T is HE and not AP.
ditto
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Originally posted by Bronk
I'd like to see film of this.
The 37 mm on the T is HE and not AP.
The B25 has HE to and that can take out tigers. It's not impossible you just have to hit them in the right spot.
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The B-25 has a 75mm for one thing. Where is this "right spot" anyway? Need film.
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yakTs gun can and will kill tanks.
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Originally posted by Slash27
The B-25 has a 75mm for one thing. Where is this "right spot" anyway? Need film.
Film of the B25H?
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Originally posted by zorstorer
CC that Overlag :) The first time I got a tiger with rockets alone I was quite amazed :D
The armor penetration values for the Pb1 (the rocket on the 190F8) will punch through ANY tank we have in game :)
But the one thing I have been trying to get out of HT (with little success) has been if AH uses strike angle in its calculations for the Pb1 (and other true HEAT rounds). Sometimes Ill get a kill on a tank (they blew up when the rockets hit) and I thought the rocket would have hit at a angle that would have defeated the round.
Something I hope HT replies to :)
im sure more than once ive seen my rockets bounce off, but, when they do hit, i love the big explosion lol
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Originally posted by Larry
Film of the B25H?
Film of a Yak 9T killing a Tiger.
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WTF? huh, what, whos that?
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IL2 eassy vaporize a Panzer,M4 or smoke a T34 in 1 pass , or trak a tiger with 2 long burst same trak,: fire the cannon only in turet from 45 degrees or higher angle
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For those interested on the b-25 pumpkin gun killing tanks.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213987&perpage=50&highlight=75mm&pagenumber=1
It is capable of 1 shot kills on tigers. Ask lusche.:D
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Originally posted by Bronk
I'd like to see film of this.
The 37 mm on the T is HE and not AP.
Don't film very much but I shall trust me it may be HE but it will kill tanks.
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Originally posted by trax1
The 40mm on the K4 are even better for that.
Never tried 109k4 on tanks will keep it in mind.
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Originally posted by lyric1
Never tried 109k4 on tanks will keep it in mind.
The K4 doesn't have 40mm cannons as stated in his post and the German 30mm's will not kill a tank.
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Originally posted by Bronk
I'd like to see film of this.
The 37 mm on the T is HE and not AP.
Posted in the "New Love" thread as well:
I didn't believe it until I saw / did it for myself. The first two links include kills of a panzer with the Yak's 37mm gun, followed immediately by me smacking the ground. This is in the DA, but I don't think the MA settings are any different. Note that unlike the 75mm from the B-25, this took multiple hits.
(BTW, it is OK to laugh at my awful gunnery, poor angle of attack and general sucky flying ability. I will just claim that it is because I never fly Yaks, and see if you buy it. ;))
First Pnzr Kill (http://www.mediafire.com/?66tmjtyzinl)
Second Pnzr Kill (http://www.mediafire.com/?dyjqyztgltt)
We started to try to the 37mm against a T-34. I didn't do any appreciable damage, but a few of the hit sprites looked promising. I can't tell if they are armor hits or track hits, you can judge for yourself. Unfortunately I didn't have any time to try multiple sorties.
Useless T-34 attack (http://www.mediafire.com/?9xznytb1n9h)
My squaddies had film of their own. Rifle used a flat vs. rear attack and eventually got a kill as well. I've asked him to send me the film, and will post it when he does so.
These are the films from Soup. The first film corresponds to my second film above. The next two show Rifle's attacks. which were low angle shots vs. my high angle shots. I won't link Soup's T-34 film because all you can see is that I didn't scratch him, so there really isn't anything to see IMO.
Probably won't get Rifle's film until tomorrow.
Soup Film 1 (http://www.mediafire.com/?4r1ld5n1dmj)
Soup Film 2 (http://www.mediafire.com/?5xwkg1b19vn)
Soup Film 3 (http://www.mediafire.com/?cshjwxgxnhb)
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Originally posted by lyric1
A yak 9t from the rear on most tanks will get you a kill out right just use the 37mm only so your sure of where your hitting the tank.
are you kiding i have to hit them 2 to get them smokeing and then quite a few more to kill them and yes i hit them dead flat into the rear
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Originally posted by trax1
The 40mm on the K4 are even better for that.
it is a 30 and 1 40mm doesnt do as much damage as 1 37
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HUH well done target. Didn't think it possible I stand corrected.
Thanks.
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Thanks for the testing El Target. Any luck killing a Tiger with it?
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Originally posted by splitatom
are you kiding i have to hit them 2 to get them smokeing and then quite a few more to kill them and yes i hit them dead flat into the rear
Well yeah you have to hit them to get them smoking & then hit them some more to kill them. Never said it was a 1 shot deal.
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Considering the very vast majority of tanks in WWII were killed NOT by gun or cannon fire but by ord.
Typically even under the best of circumstances the best gunfire could hope to do was disable the tanks engines or tracks
In the case of german tanks. Most werent destroyed by aircraft but disabled and abandonded by the crew because of their overcomplexity in design and inability (with the exception of the tracks) of the crews to repair them in the feild.
The ease in which they are killed outright by gun/cannon fire in game has reached a point nothing short of absurdity.
Killing tanks outright with gun/cannonfire should be the exception due more to blind luck for even the very best of pilots and not the rule.
On the otherhand. as someone pointed out.
Dropping a 1000 pound bomb next to even a Tiger should destroy it as the concussion from the blast would be more then enough to turn the crews brains to scrambled eggs.
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Bomb blasts did flip over panzers and panthers.
After D-day, as the allieds were advancing through France, the 8th Airforce knew that a Panzer division (or some large group) was in a certain French town. Hundreds of bombers bombed this town, and when the infantry advanced, they found tanks flipped over, german tank crews totally shell-shocked with busted eardrums and over-pressure injuries.
I believe I read this in Stephen Ambrose's "Citizen Soldier", or one of his other books.
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I & Rogerdee have been working on a skin for a former p47 pilot who flew with the 358th f/g he said you could kill tigers with 50 cal's, how ever he says napalm worked best it sucked the air out of your lungs causing them to collapse & you suffocated & if you survived that you would then cook in the tank or as the tank crews tried to get out they burned. They liked napalm more so than bombs.
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Originally posted by lyric1
I & Rogerdee have been working on a skin for a former p47 pilot who flew with the 358th f/g he said you could kill tigers with 50 cal's, how ever he says napalm worked best it sucked the air out of your lungs causing them to collapse & you suffocated & if you survived that you would then cook in the tank or as the tank crews tried to get out they burned. They liked napalm more so than bombs.
:rofl
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How dare you laugh at the fact that he thinks a ricochetting 50 caliber bullet could destroy a 50 ton tank!
:lol
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Lil late here but I have had exelent luck killing panzers with the 9-T. Just come in low at the rear and I can kill them in 3 or 4 shots if my aim is good. T-34's are tougher but I have managed to smoke the engine several times but never kill them and I don't think I've ever killed a Tiger this way.
I think the most spectacular panzer kill I ever did was when a panzer had parked in a fighter hanger and we didn't have any ord at the base so I got on the deck with my trusty 9-T, blasted the tank and flew through the explosion in the hanger... Wish I would have recorded that, I would have posted screen shots :) I bet the tank driver was pissed.
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It was pretty common for allied fighters (mainly american) to leave some fuel in drop tanks incase they run across tanks simply dropping next to tank then strafe it, strafing a tank with 50 cal however im sure scared living crap outa the tankers.
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Originally posted by Adonai
It was pretty common for allied fighters (mainly american) to leave some fuel in drop tanks incase they run across tanks simply dropping next to tank then strafe it, strafing a tank with 50 cal however im sure scared living crap outa the tankers.
Those things bounce like a crazy when they hit the ground... not really knowing where they are going to land would make it hard to judge where to drop them... :huh
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Originally posted by E25280
Probably won't get Rifle's film until tomorrow.
I got one film from Rifle. It is actually of him in the MA killing a panzer with the Yak (http://www.mediafire.com/?41tjwbjzm1x). Again, he uses a low angle and appears to shoot for the engine box.
After thinking about it, I know I have killed panzers with the 37mm HE on an osti (usually I die long before I can get close enough, but it has happened on occasion), so the fact the Yak can kill them should not have been such a surprise after all.
Originally posted by Slash27
Thanks for the testing El Target. Any luck killing a Tiger with it?
We didn't actually do any testing against the Tiger.
The Panzer and Ostwind have only 12-15mm armor on top, and 20mm armor in the rear. Given the Panzer can be killed from the rear, we can assume the Sherman with 19mm armor on top and the T-34 20mm could also be killed with well placed shots from above. The Tiger has 25mm on the top. I wonder if that would offer just enough protection to keep it safe?
(Armor values from this site (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php) that someone posted a while back.)
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Originally posted by Adonai
It was pretty common for allied fighters (mainly american) to leave some fuel in drop tanks incase they run across tanks simply dropping next to tank then strafe it, strafing a tank with 50 cal however im sure scared living crap outa the tankers.
Chuck Yeager and his wingman dropped their droptanks with fuel in them with the purpose of seeing if they could get them to explode. They strafed the droptanks until they were out of ammunition, but they wouldn't burn.
MYTH BUSTED.
Source: Chuck Yeagers biography "Yeager".
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How dare you laugh at the fact that he thinks a ricochetting 50 caliber bullet could destroy a 50 ton tank!
:lol
Well my post is based off some facts & as I said it came from a former jug pilot not us cartoon warriors. I think I would take the word of this man who was there & flew such missions & risking his life. You can snicker at me & my post I don't mind that, how ever you discredit the like's of this man who served with courage & distinction & great honour. He says you could kill a tiger with 50cal's I am not going to second guess him. Should you? http://www.p47pilots.com/P47-Pilots.cfm?c=incP47BiographyHome.cfm&vm=BIO&pilotid=80&p=Joseph%20P.%20Celauro
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Originally posted by lyric1
Well my post is based off some facts & as I said it came from a former jug pilot not us cartoon warriors. I think I would take the word of this man who was there & flew such missions & risking his life. You can snicker at me & my post I don't mind that, how ever you discredit the like's of this man who served with courage & distinction & great honour. He says you could kill a tiger with 50cal's I am not going to second guess him. Should you? http://www.p47pilots.com/P47-Pilots.cfm?c=incP47BiographyHome.cfm&vm=BIO&pilotid=80&p=Joseph%20P.%20Celauro
Its relitively easy to discredit these bogus claims as the only way he would know if he managed to destroy the tanks he strafed would be if he landed and went to see if they were distroyed.
I doubt very much he was able to tell how much damage he did while traveling at several hundred miles per hour while trying not to hit the ground.
not to mention trying to avoid any return fire that would have been comming up from the ground.
Because unlike us cartoon pilots. If he screwed up. he didnt have the luxury of being able to immediately re-up another cartoon aircraft.
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He has confirmed kills on tanks. Although I don't know if he killed tigers him self in this fashion I didn't think to ask him that. I will the next time I speak with him, I asked could you kill tigers using nothing but the eight 50's on a jug he said yes but napalm was the best way to kill tanks.
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Then he is wrong.
Can't really argue with physics, and the armor penetration values of a .50 caliber round are well documented.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Then he is wrong.
Can't really argue with physics, and the armor penetration values of a .50 caliber round are well documented.
Well let me ask you this then. Can p47's destroy & sink a Geman destroyer with 50cal's alone? Lets see who knows the answer to that one. So lets for a moment presume the answer is yes if you can sink a destroyer with it's amour & it is many times thicker than a tanks & not to forget all the AAA that a ship like this would throw up at a air attack would you at least concede that a tiger tank could meet the same fate?
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Originally posted by lyric1
Well let me ask you this then. Can p47's destroy & sink a Geman destroyer with 50cal's alone? Lets see who knows the answer to that one. So lets for a moment presume the answer is yes if you can sink a destroyer with it's amour & it is many times thicker than a tanks & not to forget all the AAA that a ship like this would throw up at a air attack would you at least concede that a tiger tank could meet the same fate?
Comparign apples & oranges.
Destroyers are actually not armored better than a Tiger, which has ALL of it's components protected by a thick armored shell.
The absence of AAA doesn't improve the physical ability of a .50cal round to penetrate armor.
(What's the point in producing heavy tanks when they are pierced by mere machinegun bullets?)
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Originally posted by Lusche
Comparign apples & oranges.
Destroyers are actually not armored better than a Tiger, which has ALL of it's components protected by a thick armored shell.
The absence of AAA doesn't improve the physical ability of a .50cal round to penetrate armor.
(What's the point in producing heavy tanks when they are pierced by mere machinegun bullets?)
Ok take out the AAA I threw that in for good measure. You almost have the answer find out if & how a destroyer can be sunk with only 50cal's then when you know that you will see that a tank can be doomed in the same situation.
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Originally posted by lyric1
Ok take out the AAA I threw that in for good measure. You almost have the answer find out if & how a destroyer can be sunk with only 50cal's then when you know that you will see that a tank can be doomed in the same situation.
:rofl
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Originally posted by lyric1
Ok take out the AAA I threw that in for good measure. You almost have the answer find out if & how a destroyer can be sunk with only 50cal's then when you know that you will see that a tank can be doomed in the same situation.
Lyric, as much as I like defending VB's with you you are wrong. .50's will not kill a tank in the game.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Lyric, as much as I like defending VB's with you you are wrong. .50's will not kill a tank in the game.
And surely no a Tiger in real life too. Tanks would have been utterly useless.
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Just to point out, I was asking about in-game, not real life. WWII aircraft could potentially have done many things in real life that they were simply to valuable to risk in attempting given the low probability of success.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
Yak-9T come in low and shoot them in the gas tank. Blow them up in 4-5 shots.
Bug if so..... Tiger is diesel.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Bug if so..... Tiger is diesel.
No it isnt. Maybach HL 230 P 45, first versions had a weaker Maybach HL 210 P 45. Both are gasoline engines.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Lyric, as much as I like defending VB's with you you are wrong. .50's will not kill a tank in the game.
Agreed I am talking about in real life.
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From "Flying Guns World War II. Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45. By Anthony G. Williams and Emmanuel Gustin":
"The ineffectiveness of air attack against tanks should have caused no
surprise because the weapons available to the fighter-bombers were not
suitable for destroying them. Put simply, the heavy machine guns and
20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but
insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance.
The RPs and bombs used were certainly capable of destroying the tanks
but were too inaccurate to hit them, except occasionally by chance."
You may also take a look at "Allied Fighter-Bombers Versus German in North-West Europe 1944-1945: Myths and Realities" by Ian Gooderson, published in Journal of Strategic Studies. 1991, vol. 14, No. 2. Coming basically to the same judgements.
BTW, fighter-bomber pilots claimed MUCH more enemy tanks destroyed than the actually did:
"The evidence gathered by the OR teams indicated that very few tanks
were destroyed by air attack. A British War Office analysis of 223
Panther tanks destroyed in 1944 revealed that only fourteen resulted
from air attack (eleven to RPs and three to aircraft cannon). During
the Mortain battle of 7-10 August, the RAF and USAAF launched
sustained attacks on a German armoured column over a period of six
hours, claiming 252 German tanks destroyed or damaged in nearly 500
sorties. It was subsequently discovered that there had only been a
total of 177 tanks or tank destroyers deployed by the Germans and just
46 of those were lost, of which only nine could be attributed to air
attack (seven to RPs and two to bombs). During the German retreat from
the Falaise pocket later in August, the RAF and USAAF claimed 391
armoured vehicles destroyed. Shortly afterwards, the battlefield was
examined and only 133 armoured vehicles of all types were found, of
which just 33 had been the victim of any sort of air attack."
Source again: "Flying Guns World War II"
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Impressive Lusche as always in regards to your research & data. Mr Celauro may be wrong I can't say for sure it did or didn't happen I can only repeat what he said. That aside for a moment use that depth of knowledge you have & find out if a destroyer could be sunk with 50cal's only, call it a challenge if you will.
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Originally posted by lyric1
That aside for a moment use that depth of knowledge you have & find out if a destroyer could be sunk with 50cal's only, call it a challenge if you will.
Hmm... I have not much knowledge about naval warfare at all. I could imagine it is indeed possible: Bullets raking all over the ship, setting things afire, secondary explosions, gradually reducing the ship into a burning hulk... But I don't know if such a thing ever happened.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Hmm... I have not much knowledge about naval warfare at all. I could imagine it is indeed possible: Bullets raking all over the ship, setting things afire, secondary explosions, gradually reducing the ship into a burning hulk... But I don't know if such a thing ever happened.
It did happen & there is gun camera footage of it. Two p47's attack it & they were pilots from the Tuskegee airmen. Can't find the gun camera footage at the moment so here is a link to stat's of the Tuskegee airmen http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/uploads/stats.pdf
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I think I know which camera footage you're talking about. They used it in the HBO movie.
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yes they did.
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Originally posted by E25280
I got one film from Rifle. It is actually of him in the MA killing a panzer with the Yak (http://www.mediafire.com/?41tjwbjzm1x). Again, he uses a low angle and appears to shoot for the engine box.
After thinking about it, I know I have killed panzers with the 37mm HE on an osti (usually I die long before I can get close enough, but it has happened on occasion), so the fact the Yak can kill them should not have been such a surprise after all.
We didn't actually do any testing against the Tiger.
The Panzer and Ostwind have only 12-15mm armor on top, and 20mm armor in the rear. Given the Panzer can be killed from the rear, we can assume the Sherman with 19mm armor on top and the T-34 20mm could also be killed with well placed shots from above. The Tiger has 25mm on the top. I wonder if that would offer just enough protection to keep it safe?
(Armor values from this site (http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php) that someone posted a while back.)
i cant get a steap enough angle most rounds amed at the turet they all bounce off especialy shermans and t-34 i have been killed by ricosheying rounds from canons
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Originally posted by lyric1
Impressive Lusche as always in regards to your research & data. Mr Celauro may be wrong I can't say for sure it did or didn't happen I can only repeat what he said. That aside for a moment use that depth of knowledge you have & find out if a destroyer could be sunk with 50cal's only, call it a challenge if you will.
they have a dogfights episode night fighters 2 f-6 sunk or cripled a jap destroyer they straffed it sides then they shot down the smoke stacks and the boilers exploaded inside the ship
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Originally posted by lyric1
It did happen & there is gun camera footage of it. Two p47's attack it & they were pilots from the Tuskegee airmen. Can't find the gun camera footage at the moment so here is a link to stat's of the Tuskegee airmen http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org/uploads/stats.pdf
Strafing a ship with unprotected / improperly protected ammunition or fuel on deck, causing said ammunition or fuel to catch fire and explode, is a far different thing than strafing a fully enclosed tank.
For sake of argument, even if the tank is carrying an external jerry can of gasoline that catches fire, that fire is going to be small enough that the tank needs only drive out of the fire. On a ship, fires are much harder to "avoid."
This is soooo apples and oranges as to be useless to the discussion.
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Originally posted by E25280
Strafing a ship with unprotected / improperly protected ammunition or fuel on deck, causing said ammunition or fuel to catch fire and explode, is a far different thing than strafing a fully enclosed tank.
For sake of argument, even if the tank is carrying an external jerry can of gasoline that catches fire, that fire is going to be small enough that the tank needs only drive out of the fire. On a ship, fires are much harder to "avoid."
This is soooo apples and oranges as to be useless to the discussion.
Well I would say no to apples & oranges & yes to unprotected ord. The man who said you could take out tigers with 50cal's I am not going to second guess. He was there & maybe he did do that him self or that he new others that did? I don't know the answer to that as of yet. I do understand that 50's have almost no penetration on tank armour, so if he is right there must have been a way it was done. As I said I don't know yet how, but I did remember that a destroyer was sunk from reading a book about the Tuskegee air men from many years ago. So how did they sink that ship? it turn's out a hatch was not secured on board & when the planes attacked one or more shells came through the hatch & struck a ord magazine & that was that ship sunk. So maybe the pilots got lucky & attacked a tank that was vunerable in a similar fashion being serviced with the engine bay exposed or got a stray shell inside through a open hatch hitting the tanks ord. My point in comparing the ship to a tank was that it would be more unlikely if not impossible to take out a ship in this manner but it happened. So could it be plausible to have a tank go out in a similar fashion? I would say anything is possible. In one of Lusche's post's about research on battle damage it mentions that bullets could not damage tanks except occasionally by chance.