Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Mox on March 20, 2000, 02:14:00 PM
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I hate the lamers that fly their bombers to 40K...
I'm starting to see more and more of this kind of lameness. Several known squads are starting to do this on a regular basis. I have a film of bomber at 38K that fly's with one of the more upstanding squads here. I know The Wrecking Crew, and many other squads frown on this type of dweebness.
How do you guys feel about this?
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-20-2000).]
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I feel like the B-17 or B-26 couldn't reach 38k in reality. B-17 had a max altitude of 33k. I don't know what the max altitude of the B-26 was, but something that was nicknamed the Flying Prostitute because it had no visible means of support couldn't have gone too much over 30k.
That said, I don't really like the trend of calling people "dweebs" because they use their equipment in ways that are hard to deal with. Everybody is going to use what they have to the greatest effect. People who fly their bombers high do it because it is effective. People who fly the F4U-1C do so because it is effective (I don't like that a plane which saw 1 hour of combat is modeled, but I don't blame people for using it. Look at the kill rates, it is the only plane with a kill rate that is distinctly better that 1 for 1, it has about a 1 for 1.8). I'm not a dweeb because I fly a Spitfire (its not that good, look at the kill rates, its at less than 1 for 1).
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-20-2000).]
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I agree that this is getting old. It would be one thing if the operational ceilings of all the planes were correctly modeled, but I was in a F4U the other day chasing a B17 who was at 32K. Once I got to 30K the F4U became to unstable to fly .. the tail swinging back and forth, no power ... very frustrating. I thought the operational ceiling on the F4U was 36K??
Regardless, the strato buff's are getting REALLY old. I know that the wrecking crew and the musketeers generally fly no higher than 25K and usually around 21K.
I guess the same argument can be made about this as the sitting on the spawn point thread ... if the game allows it, then why not ... but I still think IMHO that strato buffs are a little much.
-Sn1p3r
(http://crystal.cleardata.net/~bpetting/snipe-f4u-card.jpg)
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Karnak is correct.
Altitude is the proper tactic when using bombers. It evens the playing field out in their benefit.
There is nothing wrong with what they are doing. Same goes for head on attacks.
If it works, then it isn't stupid.
Hans.
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Hi all
Each aircraft has an it's own plus points - the 109 its speed and rate of climb, the Spit its turn rate, the Nik with its deadly cannons... blah, blah, blah... So, I don't see anything wrong with using the bombers advantage - its ceiling capabilities. It takes bombers ages to get to this height, and a P38 can make the same height in half the time, if the pilot decides to chase then it's up to him. I bombed at lower altitudes and you often get shot down, so which is it? Fly high (25k-33k) and get to your target and help your countrymen, or fly lower and take a lot more risk (and loads of time wasted in flight)? If the target is an airfield in 'your territory' you can afford to fly lower, but taking out the nme Radar at low height is almost suicidal unless in numbers...
What next? "Hey you 109 guys using your faster speed to catch me, not fair..." (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
'Nexx'
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 03-20-2000).]
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Originally posted by Karnak:
That said, I don't really like the trend of calling people "dweebs" because they use their equipment in ways that are hard to deal with.
(edited 03-20-2000).]
It's called exploiting in my book. It was not designed to be this way, thus a person doing this that IS aware of the bug is exploiting a known bug.
Whats the point of taking a Buff so high that you are out of the range of ALL enemy fighters? Is that really a challenge?
I guess I just don't get it...
I've seen this more and more... both the Knights and the Bishops are doing this DAILY. If I see a Rook do this I usually ask them to bring the strato down to a reasonable alt.
How about the major squads agree on a max alt?
FYI if you look at my poor stats you'll see I spend a lot of time in bombers and I've never flown above 32K (except for testing) on a bomb run.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-20-2000).]
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While I agree on the 25k (loaded) to 30k (unloaded) service ceilings, I wonder if any Hog or Spit driver would stop attacking me because I fly an allied plane?
You want historic behaviour for buffs but fighter jocks can use the fantasy setup how they like it.
Az
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Originally posted by Replicant:
Each aircraft has an it's own plus points - the 109 its speed and rate of climb, the Spit its turn rate, the Nik with its deadly cannons... blah, blah, blah... So, I don't see anything wrong with using the bombers advantage - its ceiling capabilities. 'Nexx'
Yes but you should know that your exploiting a bug since the bombers were not designed to go that high and didn't in real life.
I don't have a problem with a person i a G10 running it at it's maximum speed, because it was designed (in game) to do that... what if the G10 actually flew at 900mph? Would you say "go ahead and use it?" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Even though you knew that the plane was not designed (in game) to do that and never did in real life?
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by azrael:
While I agree on the 25k (loaded) to 30k (unloaded) service ceilings, I wonder if any Hog or Spit driver would stop attacking me because I fly an allied plane?
You want historic behaviour for buffs but fighter jocks can use the fantasy setup how they like it.
Az
I think the term I'm looking for is "accurate" not "historic".
I look forward to a Historical Arena, I feel that is where I'd spent a lot of my flying time.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Hi
Originally posted by Mox:
Yes but you should know that your exploiting a bug since the bombers were not designed to go that high and didn't in real life.
I don't have a problem with a person i a G10 running it at it's maximum speed, because it was designed (in game) to do that... what if the G10 actually flew at 900mph? Would you say "go ahead and use it?" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Even though you knew that the plane was not designed (in game) to do that and never did in real life?
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
I think there are many exploitations going on, not just bombing, look at the spawn points etc... 'If it all was real, we'd all be dead...' (He's dead Jim! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) Then again, bombers would be bombing in large formations with little friends etc... something that doesn't happen often in AH. As for the 'it didn't really fly that high in real life', well, I haven't a clue what height the B17 really flew at, and I don't go round looking at all the stats for each aircraft and then only fly them to those stats (because I don't know half of them, and some books give different info to other books! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) If enough people are disenchanted with the capabilities then HTC might do something about it...
Anyway, I think it's still a wonderful game and bloody good show HTC! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
'Nexx'
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 03-20-2000).]
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Any B17 over 28k is a superdweeb, and probably a scorepotato to boot. Period. I rarely even make it into the 20's when I'm flying a buff, usually only up to about 15k.
Maybe if they gave the .50s thier teeth back it might help with this problem.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ:
Any B17 over 28k is a superdweeb, and probably a scorepotato to boot. Period. I rarely even make it into the 20's when I'm flying a buff, usually only up to about 15k.
Maybe if they gave the .50s thier teeth back it might help with this problem.
Good point CJ, I have noticed a increase in the number of stratodweebs since the guns were nerfed.
Maybe the nerfing has caused some pilots to go completly out of range of any weapon in the game. I just don't get it....
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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The guns in the bombers are fine IMO,if anything they are killed too easy and need durability raised.. Also if your so concerned with historic accuracy then you wont attack a bomber unless your flying an axis plane-right? BTW,saying it`s only the Bishop and Knights doing it is a crock of sh*t and you know it! How about you gaming the game in your Spitfire shooting paratroops cave? I guess you think thats historic? I haven`t been flying the super high buff runs -usually I go no higher than 27k-but you can bet if I know a F4U1c with it`s holy water hispanos is coming I`ll go as high as needed to escape that one ping wonder,with this plane in the arena I don`t blame any buff driver for grabbing as much alt as they can.
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slight difference in the superdweebdom of flying the 17s over 28k and strafing troops w/ the armored nancyboy dweebmobile. The 17s couldna fly that high, period. Because of factors that either can't be or aren't modeled the ones in AH can.
And most of the time when I strafe troops I'm already in the air when they were dropped. That day at 15 I happened to sit back down in time to see a low dot approaching so I launched cause I knew it was a goon. Next time bring cover.
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Originally posted by weazel:
BTW,saying it`s only the Bishop and Knights doing it is a crock of sh*t and you know it! How about you gaming the game in your Spitfire shooting paratroops cave? I guess you think thats historic? I haven`t been flying the super high buff runs -usually I go no higher than 27k-but you can bet if I know a F4U1c with it`s holy water hispanos is coming I`ll go as high as needed to escape that one ping wonder,with this plane in the arena I don`t blame any buff driver for grabbing as much alt as they can.
Weazel,
I'm not saying that Rooks don't fly strato bombers, I'm saying it's generaly frowned upon. I will make it a point to tell the Rooks that are doing it, and they usually agree and come down to a reasonable alt.
Weazel, all I ask, is that you do the same to your country. Fair enough? Some of the problem is education, if a newbie does it I understand I will try to explain why it's frowned upon.
Strafing troops is entirely different.. it did happen in history and was a very common occurance. I'm not argueing the problems with strafing and believe me I have some stronge opinions on that too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The F4UC problem needs a thread on it's own... I agree with you on the Hogs cannons.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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All countries StratoDweeb, and all who do it should be chastized and educated as too why they shouldn't do it.
One very funny thing tho Mox, yep Strafing is historic, but I don't quite think it was done while rolling around on your landing gear at 30 mph.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"
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Obviously those who complain about buffs do not fly them often. Go check the scores. The B-17 typically has the 2nd worst kill ratio (C-47 is the worse) in this game: about 1 kill per 2 deaths (.5). The B-26 is a little better at about .7 . I have never seen a fighter with a worse ratio (they are typically .85 to 1.85 . Remember that for a buff to get to 30+ K, it usually takes over an hour, buffing is a big investment of time, that can be ruined by a guy who has invested little. A fighter has a climb rate that is several times greater than the buffs. Often buffs get blown out of the sky before they get a chance to drop their load. I fly buffs about 1/2 of the time and think that they are too easy to kill, gamewise. I have a terrible kill ratio against buffs, yet have managed to kill several at 30+ K.
Buffs had 3 means of defence, large formations, escorts, and alt. Because this is a game, the first 2 rarely happen. The only chance a buff driver has in this game is to go high. If you enter enemy teritory in a buff at 15 K, you will most often get wasted before you get a chance to look through the bombsight. Often at these alts you must deal with multiple cons, yet you are the only gunner, how realistic is that? When you attack a buff in a fighter, he is usually alone or too far from another buff to benifit from mutual support, how realistic is that? If you want reality, perhaps each buff driver should be flying a lead plane that has 19 drones with 6 otto gunners in each plane.
Anyway, the point of my rant is that you winers should try this game from the buffs point of view before bashing tactics. Spend 1/3 of your time alone, slow, low, relitively unmanuverable, and at the mercy of Luke Skywalker in his F4U 1C, and then come back and gripe about buffs.
eskimo
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I'm starting to see more and more of this kind of lameness. Several known squads are starting to do this on a regular basis. I have a film of bomber at 38K that fly's with one of the more upstanding squads here. I know The Wrecking Crew, and many other squads frown on this type of dweebness.
CaveJ may frown on this but just this afternoon, I found at least two Wrecking Crew if not three who were flying at 30+K to take out the Bish radar facility. Two B17 and an F4. I know two of them were Bull and Handy.
Cave, I know you rarely fly at 30+, and I respect that. You might want to talk to your squadmates, however. They are exploiting this dweebishness we all wish HTC got rid of.
-Ding
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Originally posted by Mox:
I'm not saying that Rooks don't fly strato bombers, I'm saying it's generaly frowned upon. I will make it a point to tell the Rooks that are doing it, and they usually agree and come down to a reasonable alt.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
I just been up to intercept a B17 over Bish radar... dar got bombed whilst I was directly overhead and I was at 26k and I didn't see any of the Wrecking Crew that dropped the eggs... was reported by someone else at 35k
I wasn't angry though as I agree entirely with Eskimo...
'Nexx'
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OK OK LET THE FULL TIME BOBMER PILOT HAVE A SAY IN THIS!!!!!!! Thank you. Now many of you know that I fly buffs full time, so of all ppl I should know what it's like. K now why I get high alt is so you can't shoot me, and whats wrong with that? Nothing right? And another thing, I never fly above 25k, it takes too long to get there anyway. I rememeber yesterday in the arena Mox, when you and I where talking. I rememeber I told you that it took 1 hour for me to reach 25k in a half loaded 17, where as it took you only 10 mins to reach 25k in your fighter. Plus it only takes 1 or 2 hits from your dweeb plane (F4U-1C) to take me down. So listen, it offends me that someone calls me a dweeb because I fly high. I don't call you a dweeb because you fly your fighter high, now do I? So please just STOP IT, as buff driving is already HELL, and you don't have to make it harder.
*phew*........*takes breath* sry I just had to get that off my chest. Sry if I offened anyone. I'll see yall in the arena, and rememeber, if you see a bomber at 25k bombing your HQ, it's probly someone else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) .
later all
Capt'n Beefcake
"RASA FRASA......STUPID ONE HIT KILLS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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ooops I didn't read eskimo's post heheheh (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) anyway all I have to say is DAMN RIGHT ESKY! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
ah you know my name (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hi all
Just been reading about the B17G in two different books and they say that the max ceiling was 35,000ft (B17F at 37,000ft) though it didn't mention whether this was laden or not, probably unladen. I know that they often went in large formations at 20-25k with escorts part/full way.
Anyway, what I'd like to know is this data correct at all (or are my books crap! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) ) and can anyone recommend some good reads on the 17? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Thanks!
Regards all
'Nexx'
[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 03-20-2000).]
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>Just been reading about the B17G in two different books and they say that the max ceiling was 35,000ft (B17F at 37,000ft) though it didn't mention whether this was laden or not, probably unladen. I know that they often went in large formations at 20-25k with escorts part/full way.
Yeah, that's right. The vast majority of the time the attacks were in the 25K range. A B-17 was certainly CAPABLE of getting up to 30K+, but at that altitude bombing accuracy diminished and it got really, really hard on the crews.
I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere in my books that in the early days the RAF would use that 30K+ altitude for only short periods to outclimb the Germans, use their faster speed at that altitude, and scoot away before going back down.
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John Sponauer
Senior Editor, SimHQ.com
jsponauer@simhq.com
Grandson of a Navigator (15th AF, 460th BG, 761st)
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I do spend alot of time in the bombers. In every tour I've been ranked in the top 3 for bomber score (I was 214CaveJ during the beta tours).
I assume the score page lists total sortie time in seconds? If that's the case, I've got 74+hrs in bombers for beta tour 1 and over 100hrs in bombers for beta tour 2, beta tour 3, and tour 1. So far in tour 2 I only have 32-33hrs, but I'm currently ranked 3rd in points for the bombers.
I believe most of these guys are going above 30k because a)they can't shoot or carry gunners who can't shoot, or b)they have problems w/ the nerf .50s that are installed on the buffs.
It's still rediculous. I haven't ventured above 28k in a VERY long time, and, as I've said elsewhere, I'm usually found down around 15k, throwing hundreds of Nerf .50 cal rounds at enemy fighters.
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Fly as high as you like... I don't mind.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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When I fly bombers, or anyone in my squad for that matter, we never exceed 25k. First of all, it just takes too long to go higher. Second, it's not fun IMO. Third, I LIKE to shoot at fighters, because at 25k they will usually be coming in low from the 6 position. That being said, I usually fly around 15k. I personally don't like to see bombers flying any higher than about 30k myself. If you go higher than that, only the p38 can get to you. It seems kind of strange that the one fighter we have that was designed specifically to bring down bombers (190A8) can barely reach 30k.
It also gets on my nerves when someone accuses only Knights and Bishops of doing this. It's like saying that only Rooks get gangbanged, meaning it's just not true. (What were those numbers late last night ... oh yeah, 17 bish, 12 rook, 5 knights. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I must say we put up a pretty good fight and even managed to take 4 bases. ) Need more proof, ok here it is: About 50% of the people playing this game switch sides regularly. (Maybe they just turn into Mr. Hyde when they become Knights. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) )
IMHO this is a bug in the game, but it is a bug that HTC is aware of. Remember, they lowered the ceiling for the b26 just recently. I've also heard that modifications to the bombing accuracy (or bombsight) are planned. Hopefully this will put an end the threat of the 35k stratobomber once and for all.
Just my $.02
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Nothing makes me laugh harder than guys "please make it easier for me to shoot you down" Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! What base are you flying from? I'll be right over with a C-47 full of Kleenex... Are you the same types that get mad when a P51 wont stall fight your Spitfire?
And as for you morons who complain about the accuracy of buff bombsights... Well I guess you fail to understand NOBODY would fly buffs if they needed a 100 plane formation to ensure hitting the AAA guns at a fighters strip. Maybe you still don't get it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) If 10% of your countrymen fly buffs, then you would need 1000 players on your side to get to the required 100 bomber formation you would need to sucessfully attack your target. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Coyote
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Eskimo, well said!
Coyote, ROFLMAO!
Seems like this whole board is turning into
"Why won't the rest of you dweebs/lamers/geeks/whatevers play this game the way _I_ tell you to?"
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So....The Wrecking Crew Frowns on this eh?
Hate to pop ur bubble, but I dont think anyone cares (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude Out!
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So how fast does an unloaded (no bombs) buff take to climb to 35k with 25%???
Hmmm... maybe a couple of fighterdweebs in an unloaded 17 could be quite lethal for stratobuffs?
-vlkn- in
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I don't have a problem with buffs going stratosphere, and I'm always on the hunting side (flown maybe 1 bomber sortie this tour). If they want to spend an hour getting up there, risk still getting hit and failing (38s can still catch), all to knock out radar for 1/2 hour, more power too them. Sure it's frustrating to see them go overhead, but moreso because I didn't scramble soon enough to intercept than it is because they're too high.
The only time I see a problem with this is when they fly off the map to gain alt. I haven't seen this in a bit, I don't know whether it's not possible anymore or people just haven't been doing it as much.
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Fatty
FAT DRUNK BASTARDS (http://fdb.50megs.com)
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My only problem with Strato-buffs is the incredible bomb accuracy.
I'd like to see a WW2 account of a B17 hitting a single gun emplacement from 30k with a single bomb !
Could such a precision have been available then, the war would have ended in 1943 !!
In-game however, if a guy wants to spend 30 mns watching his alt gauge turn,I have no problem with that...
I am definitely waiting for a historical arena anyway ,feels more "immersive" to me...
Spooky says :
"Just meet me and YOUR score WILL go up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) "
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Alright, I love a good brawl.
Hopefully this will be a thing of the past.
Something hasn't been mentioned though:
In the 25-30k range, lone buffs have a pretty good chance of defending themselves against enemies. No really.
Going any higher is ridiculous, but let's face it: If it isn't challenging, they will get bored and go away.
When I see someone that high, I make a couple informational comments on some nasty channel, and let it go. I ain't gettin' my panties into a knot over it.
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Yes, you are (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
CRASH
I'm not a dweeb because I fly a Spitfire
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-20-2000).][/b]
[This message has been edited by CRASH (edited 03-21-2000).]
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If the equipment supports it, people will do it. The only fix is :
1. get rid of the laser guided bombs.
2. fix the buff ceiling.
All the rest is just hot air.
CRASH
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Greetings people
I am too totally tubular "mad" to write in here what I am
realy thinking about MOXIBABY ....and others who are writing same stupidity..
I am a 100% bomber guy I dye more often then
a figther but someone as to do the job (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
MOXI no figthers is easy for you to kill so you are crying out for easyer pray is that mean that you are not even a good figther ?? I personnely would not want a kid like you in my team sry to say.
MOXIBABY for 5 days fly only B-17 and go fly
trough Bish or Rooks territorie to bomb ther
HQ after those 5 days.......
(without flying a figther)then come back here
and tell us about your feilings THEN and THEN
only I will be more interresting reading your
complains.
I DARE YOU MOXI or sh..........
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Best regards gents :)
Ranker...out!!!
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Originally posted by Rude:
So....The Wrecking Crew Frowns on this eh?
Hate to pop ur bubble, but I dont think anyone cares (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude Out!
BTW Rude you know damn well I started this thread because I caught (what I thought was
honorable pilot) doing exactly this... IT WAS YOU! I have it all on film, you being shot down by me at almost 40K.
Did I enjoy it? No it was a complete waste of time but I try to catch all the strato dweebs when I can, and film it.
So I guess *****The 13th TAS***** is one of the less than honorable squads around. IMHO.
I guess the only worse thing you could have done was alt-f4 when I got to you.
Flame away guys....
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by RANKER_ONE:
Greetings people
I am too totally tubular "mad" to write in here what I am
realy thinking about MOXIBABY ....and others who are writing same stupidity..
I am a 100% bomber guy I dye more often then
a figther but someone as to do the job (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
MOXI no figthers is easy for you to kill so you are crying out for easyer pray is that mean that you are not even a good figther ?? I personnely would not want a kid like you in my team sry to say.
MOXIBABY for 5 days fly only B-17 and go fly
trough Bish or Rooks territorie to bomb ther
HQ after those 5 days.......
(without flying a figther)then come back here
and tell us about your feilings THEN and THEN
only I will be more interresting reading your
complains.
I DARE YOU MOXI or sh..........
I'm not sure I understand what the hell your trying to say in English BUT if you go look at my scores you will see I spend a lot of time in Bombers and c47.
I do not fly fighters often and when I do I don't fly them well. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Why then are you biching agains us when we
try to save our bellybutton doing a mission ???
check what weazel wrote he is right 100% you
should know that then ????
I appologies I know I was rude cause I was piss I am not knowne to be rude with people
so I am very surry MOX please accept my apologies.
Regarding my English writing well I trie to
do my best because you see not too many fellows here write french (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Best regards gents :)
Ranker...out!!!
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Originally posted by Beefcake:
OK OK LET THE FULL TIME BOBMER PILOT HAVE A SAY IN THIS!!!!!!! Thank you. Now many of you know that I fly buffs full time, so of all ppl I should know what it's like. K now why I get high alt is so you can't shoot me, and whats wrong with that? Nothing right? And another thing, I never fly above 25k, it takes too long to get there anyway. I rememeber yesterday in the arena Mox, when you and I where talking. I rememeber I told you that it took 1 hour for me to reach 25k in a half loaded 17, where as it took you only 10 mins to reach 25k in your fighter. Plus it only takes 1 or 2 hits from your dweeb plane (F4U-1C) to take me down. So listen, it offends me that someone calls me a dweeb because I fly high. I don't call you a dweeb because you fly your fighter high, now do I? So please just STOP IT, as buff driving is already HELL, and you don't have to make it harder.
Capt'n Beefcake
Beefcake <S!> for not flying above 25K!
For the record I rarely ever fly the uber Cannon Hog because I feel it's got it's own problems (the guns of course). The F4UC's guns are WAY overmodled in my opinion, but thats just my opinion... they will be tuned down in due time.
Beef if you don't fly high then this entire thread does not apply to you! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by RANKER_ONE:
I appologies I know I was rude cause I was piss I am not knowne to be rude with people
so I am very surry MOX please accept my apologies.
Regarding my English writing well I trie to
do my best because you see not too many fellows here write french (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
No problem Ranker. If you had written it in French I would have had to get it translated =)!
See ya up there Ranker!
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Mox,
Please do go on about the 20mm on the F4. You say they are overmodeled? If they are, I'll stand with you to get them fixed.
What do you base your opinion on? Do you have military experience with the 20mm or other weapons? Have you done any ballistics tests in the game and compared the results to those you would get from readily available ballistics programs?
Are you not arguing the ballistics but find the damage they do unacceptable? Do you have any experience in this area?
Have you flown aircraft equipped with the 20mm in some country's air force?
Please let us know the experience base from which you form your opinion.
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Don't hate tha playa, hate tha gaaaaaaame!
The BUFFs need fixed flight models and a realistic Norden. That will be the end of the strato-dweebs.
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Buffs over 35k are a pain but they can be killed in a 38.
I've been over 40k in a 38 so I don't see what the problem is.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Buffs are able to fly high but so does p38 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I think it's our own fault if somebody came @35k with b17 but none of us is over 25k waiting him/her...
After all we usually know where he/she is heading...
I've seen few times couple b17 in very high alt but it's usually enough if you send one of 'em down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(Too)Often my p38 is also going downstairs with quite impressive speed but so what ?
Theres new one waiting in hangar (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Staga
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
Mox,
Please do go on about the 20mm on the F4. You say they are overmodeled? If they are, I'll stand with you to get them fixed.
What do you base your opinion on? Do you have military experience with the 20mm or other weapons? Have you done any ballistics tests in the game and compared the results to those you would get from readily available ballistics programs?
Are you not arguing the ballistics but find the damage they do unacceptable? Do you have any experience in this area?
Have you flown aircraft equipped with the 20mm in some country's air force?
Please let us know the experience base from which you form your opinion.
Man I never knew I would have drawn this many problems from one simple post! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
No I don't have any experience with firing 20mm cannons from a plane nor does anyone here. Well I doubt anyone here, including the entire hitech team, but I could be wrong about that and I'd love to talk to the person that has that type of real life experience. So in effect we all are just going on our opinions...
The main problem I have with the hogs cannons is range and lethality. I agree they should be lethal but I don't think they should be lethal at 1.5K and completely destroy a HUGE aircraft with 1 shot. It's almost as if every single cannon shell IS a golden shell tipped with depleted uranium and loaded with HE.
Why does a HogC pilot fly the HogC? Because it gives them a very real advantage in AH and what gives them such a advantage? The GUNS of course.
There are many others here that feel the same way I do about the Hogs 20's and I’m sure just as many people that don’t agree with me.
Everyone can fly the F4UC if they want to and use the advantage of the guns but not everyone is playing this game to start out with such a advantage. I like a challenge (also the same reason I don’t fly my buff to 40K), so I rarely ever fly it, because I feel it gives ME (I wont speak for the others here) a big advantage over my opponents that don't fly the HogC. One ping kills are common for me when I’m shooting with the HogC’s guns.
Why is it so absurd that the Hitech crew “could” have made a mistake in there programming of the guns on the HogC? They made the mistake on the B17’s altitude…
I honestly feel they will tune the Hogs cannons down soon. (Pure speculation on my part)
I have a lot of respect for the good pilots in this game and even more respect for the ones that DON’T fly the HogC as their primary plane.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-21-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Rude:
So....The Wrecking Crew Frowns on this eh?
Hate to pop ur bubble, but I dont think anyone cares (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude Out!
Rude,
frankly we dinnae care if anyone cares or not. When we're going bombing we prefer to operate accurately and stay under 28k. I have been tempted to become a stratodweeb though, because I'm sick of the nerf .50s the armorers installed on my buffs.
Ranker,
Mox is squeaking in general, and I'll stand with him and squeak too. My credentials in the bombers are established, and anyone who cares to can go look them up. As I've said, I've finished every tour since Beta Tour 1 ranked in the top 3 points wise for bombers, and I haven't climbed above 28k since around the begining of Beta Tour 2.
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I took a C205 to 37K once! That's right and I have proof! Can you actually see ack at 30K? I usually bomb from 20-25K and have a hard time picking them out.
I dont fly the F4U. I dont know why, I just dont. Seems like a pretty little plane though.
The 13th TAS squadron seems alright to me. Got some good pilots in there. They must have some honor. RUDE is kinda rude though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Life is like a box of chocolates, and that is all I have to say about that!
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Swager
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-21-2000).]
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The 13th TAS Squad is no less honorable for flying a bomber at max altitude than Handy and Bull flying their F4U's at 30K. They win a lot by doing that and I beleive they have a right to due it! Honorability for a squad in my opinion is based on attitude not altitude.
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Originally posted by FDAce:
Honorability for a squad in my opinion is based on attitude not altitude.
Agreed and with that said I'd like to apologize to all of the 13th TAS that does NOT do the strato flights. I guess I assumed if the CO of the squad did it then the rest of them do and thats not a fair assumption.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Mox:
No I don't have any experience with firing 20mm cannons from a plane nor does anyone here. .... So in effect we all are just going on our opinions...
The main problem I have with the hogs cannons is range and lethality. I agree they should be lethal but I don't think they should be lethal at 1.5K and completely destroy a HUGE aircraft with 1 shot.
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Well, you're wrong. There are guys in here that have flown aircraft with 20mm. Not WW2 Fighters, but experienced none the less. I'll let them reveal themselves if they choose. <I never flew fighters>
We are not ALL just going on opinion. I think perhaps the most vocal complainers are. As in most things, the guys that have been there, done that don't do the complaining.
I'd like to see YOUR films of one ping (one hit sprite? is that what you're saying?) kills on a previously undamaged buff or even multiple ping kills of any undamaged aircraft at 1.5K. In fact, I'll offer you $30, a month's free flying, if you can supply Pyro or HT with such a film that they can authenticate. I'll wager that $30 that you can't do it. You just agree to take back what you say here if you can't supply the film within 30 days, OK?
Mox, have you ever shot any weapon extensively? Are you a licensed pilot? Have you ever flown anything solo?
Sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you; I'm not. But I'm getting a little tired of guys whining with nothing to support it except pure, unbiased, unsubstantiated opinion.
I've had guys that aren't pilots tell me that a rudder trim tab works under different aerodynamic principles when attached to a high horsepower airplane as opposed to a low horsepower airplane. The basis? Opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
I've had guys that have never even shot a BB gun tell me that you can't hit any target at 1k with any type of weapon. The basis? Opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
I've had guys tell me that shooting from a fighter is like trying to shoot while jogging in place. The basis? Opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
You're certainly entitled to your opinion that the 20's on the hog or the .50's on any plane, or this or that, or any old thing is incorrectly modeled. Until you back it up with some fact, some film or some other verifiable, repeatable data....I think I'll just trust HT and Pyro, ok?
These guys were key in developing WB, a LIGHT YEARS step up from AW DOS. I believe they do the research, have the data and clearly have the EXPERIENCE to program this stuff into a flight game <yeah, you read it right, game, not SIM, game> as well as anyone reading this board or even in this business.
Remember the Flap/Lift/Drag discussion? The suggestion was that our flaps were all drag and no lift at all. The gentlemen involved did some verifiable, repeatable testing. Guess what? HT and Pyro checked it out and it's going to change.
There's your formula.
If you're gonna whine, show the proof.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Originally posted by Toad:
Originally posted by Mox:
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Well, you're wrong. There are guys in here that have flown aircraft with 20mm. Not WW2 Fighters, but experienced none the less. I'll let them reveal themselves if they choose. <I never flew fighters>
I'd like to see YOUR films of one ping (one hit sprite? is that what you're saying?) kills on a previously undamaged buff or even multiple ping kills of any undamaged aircraft at 1.5K. In fact, I'll offer you $30, a month's free flying, if you can supply Pyro or HT with such a film that they can authenticate. I'll wager that $30 that you can't do it. You just agree to take back what you say here if you can't supply the film within 30 days, OK?
Mox, have you ever shot any weapon extensively? Are you a licensed pilot? Have you ever flown anything solo?
Sorry if it sounds like I'm picking on you; I'm not. But I'm getting a little tired of guys whining with nothing to support it except pure, unbiased, unsubstantiated opinion.
Ok let me start off at the top...
If there are pilots here that have flown Hogs with 20mm then I'd love to hear their perspective on the guns here. Since there's none here, as I had guessed then we ALL are going on opinions... agreed?
I wont get into a betting match with you nor do I need your money. As I simply said prior "I" feel there's a problem with the guns, and I'm basing "my" opinion on several things,
1) what I can do with the guns as opposed to the other guns in the game.
2) the kill stats in the game for the F4UC (kinda hard to dispute that)
3) others opinions, some of which I regard highly
"Mox, have you ever shot any weapon extensively? Are you a licensed pilot? Have you ever flown anything solo?"
not many guns, I had my pilots license when I was 17, and yes I've flown several Cessna's solo. I'm not sure why you asked these questions because they have absolutely nothing to do with the Hogs cannons. We are talking opinions here, you are welcome to yours, as I am to mine.
Mox says: "Toad, is the sky red, it looks red to me?"
Toad responds: "no it's blue, shut up you whiner because you cannot "prove" it's red"
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I could just as easily be arguing that you're wrong and you have no way to prove that the guns are working as they should.
Just opinions Toad, just opinions...
It seems the guns on the F4UC are a hot topic with the people that fly them regularly. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I personally have 3 friends that will subscribe once the hogs cannons are nerfed to a reasonable level and/or fixed. The HogC's guns are the ONLY reason they will not subscribe here. I've explained over and over to them to stay the hell away from the HogC's but with so many flying them it's kinda hard to do so. Two of them had some bad times with Torque while they had their free 2 weeks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm sure HiTech and the rest of the crew did some extensive research to model the guns but even they can make mistakes. I'm fairly confident that they will either find their mistake and correct it our turn the guns down in some way to promote better play balance.
With all this being said, this is the best Online Sim I've every played. I'd also have to say that this is the best online community I've ever been a part of.
When did opinions become a "whine"?
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Hiyas Mox!
Thanks for the apology to my squad.
Cyas Up!
Rude Out!
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 03-21-2000).]
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Mox,
Ballistics is a relatively simple, known science. If you have the muzzle velocity, projectile weight, ballistic coefficient and a few other factors, it's real easy to compute range and trajectory. It's one of tghe few things a computer can do really well. It isn't opinion, it's basically physics. It's repeatable and delivers the same results for anyone performing the same experiment.
For a quick intro at an excellent site, may I suggest:
http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/ (http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/)
I believe Pyro has the necessary data on the gun rounds to plug into a ballistics program. I believe he also uses a good ballistics program. Therefore, I believe he has given us a basically "good" guns model.
If you disagree, why don't you do some ballistic computations and challenge his results? Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.
Now the damage model is not an exact science. Even the USAF is having trouble developing a computer model for that. Maybe that's where you should focus your complaints.
In any event, I'll open my previous offer to anyone. I'll pay HTC $30 to cover one month's flying if ANYONE can send Pyro a film showing themselves as they "completely destroy a HUGE aircraft with 1 shot" as Mox would have us believe.(That is ONE hit sprite Mox?) We're talking a clean, undamaged HUGE aircraft here.
Or send in a film showing a kill on a previously undamaged aircraft at a range beyond 1.4K as Mox suggests is possible.
Send films of either type to Pyro and if he authenticates it, I'll pay your AH for one month.
Put up or shut up.
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GAWDDD not again Mox!!
Last night a member of your squad was razing the bish for making a hi alt attempt on your dar, calling them dweebs and all, saying haha didnt work did it?.Now I refuse to say anything derogatory about a fellow Michiganian but I think you rooks need to do some self examination (no not that kind) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thirty minutes later I investigated a dot over one of our bases and guess what, hi alt(35k+) rook 17.
I finally engaged (wallowed around) at 38K!! in a p38, I pinged him, he pinged me, I ran out of ammo and gas, end of fight.
Now Im not a buff pilot, but the simple solution has been stated many,many times before in these forums, make hitting your target a little closer to historic, thats up to HTC. If a B17 will climb to 38K and still be able to hit its target, thats where you will find them.
Shamus
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Originally posted by Toad:
Mox,
Ballistics is a relatively simple, known science. If you have the muzzle velocity, projectile weight, ballistic coefficient and a few other factors, it's real easy to compute range and trajectory. It's one of tghe few things a computer can do really well. It isn't opinion, it's basically physics. It's repeatable and delivers the same results for anyone performing the same experiment.
For a quick intro at an excellent site, may I suggest:
http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/ (http://www.lascruces.com/~jbm/)
I believe Pyro has the necessary data on the gun rounds to plug into a ballistics program. I believe he also uses a good ballistics program. Therefore, I believe he has given us a basically "good" guns model.
If you disagree, why don't you do some ballistic computations and challenge his results? Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.
Now the damage model is not an exact science. Even the USAF is having trouble developing a computer model for that. Maybe that's where you should focus your complaints.
I agree ballistics "without lag" is an easy science. However we have lag here and some of us have much more than others. Net lag can cause many odd things to happen, as I'm sure you’re aware of, but until we have a formula for the ballistics WITH net lag, we're all just blowing smoke.... and making "best guesses".
<Gets in car and drives to 210 Park Blvd. Suite 100 Grapevine, TX to get Pyro to explain in detail how the ballistic and damage models are done> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm sure it's much more difficult to get an accurate damage model working. Why is it that the HogC's cannons out damage (or seem to out damage) all the guns in the arena including the 30mm? Is it the guns or the damage model... who knows but I know I usually will go down with a single ping from a HogC where as I don't notice it near as much with ANY other cannon plane.
Toad can I assume your primary ride is the HogC? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) If it is do you think you would do just as well in the F4UD?
Seriously Toad don't take any of this personal, as I tend to get into some heated arguments from time to time. I'm a skeptic most of the time and generally don't believe too many people until I'm confident they are not full of toejam.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Shamus:
GAWDDD not again Mox!!
Last night a member of your squad was razing the bish for making a hi alt attempt on your dar, calling them dweebs and all, saying haha didnt work did it?.Now I refuse to say anything derogatory about a fellow Michiganian but I think you rooks need to do some self examination (no not that kind) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thirty minutes later I investigated a dot over one of our bases and guess what, hi alt(35k+) rook 17.
Well I tried to see how everybody felt about this "stratodweeb stuff" and it seems apparent many of the squads do it and will continue to do it. I know I had several people post to this thread that felt it was wrong, exploiting, or flat out cheating to do it but it seems the consensus is to exploit, so I guess everything is open now.
I'm torn I guess... do I stay with the ones that I call honorable or do I claim open season on any and all exploits? If it can be done in game, a guess you guys see it as fair and square.
<Ponders the thought of eating and getting to watch TV since I'll be flying at 40K>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Solution is simple-Dump The Quakehog!
At the moment it is the only plane I hate to see while flying a bomber,anything else is just another kill. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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LOL!
So now Pyro should build a super accurate, realistic ballistics model and then fudge it for NET LAG?
I guess then you'd want to fudge roll rate for NET LAG, of course; don't forget acceleration and climb rate too. In fact, lets just adjust the whole game to compensate for the never constant, ever changing, un-quantifiable NET LAG! Forget trying to do it as well as you can...let's just dumb stuff down till a bunch of guys that play a lot of flight sims think it's "just right". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Great idea! Wonder why no one has thought of it before! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Yeah, I fly the F4UC quite a bit. Always used to be a T&B guy in previous games, but time flys and arenas change.
Studied the -51 under Rude in AH and found that a B&Z guy can live a long time IF he's careful. When the F4C came out, I gave it a try as a B&Z plane. Not really as good in that role as the -51 but the guns do make up for it. Don't ya just HATE that? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I'm willing to bet if you stuck this exact same gun model on a FW you'd hear no complaints at all. Just simpering, fawning adulation about the wonderful German engineering. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Originally posted by funked:
Don't hate tha playa, hate tha gaaaaaaame!
The BUFFs need fixed flight models and a realistic Norden. That will be the end of the strato-dweebs.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) yup and it would get rid of buff pilots all together per my previous outstandingly intellegent post. I love me.
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Coyote
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Originally posted by Spooky:
My only problem with Strato-buffs is the incredible bomb accuracy.
I'd like to see a WW2 account of a B17 hitting a single gun emplacement from 30k with a single bomb !
Could such a precision have been available then, the war would have ended in 1943 !!
Alas, one more person who can't see the BIG picute (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) 1 BUFF IN AH HAS GOT TO BE ABBLE TO DO THE SAME WORK AS A WHOLE BOMB GROUP WOULD BE ABLE TO DO IN REAL LIFE OR NOBODY WOULD FY THEM BECAUSE YOU COULD NEVER GET ENOUGH OF THEM IN THE AIR TO DO ANY GOOD!!!!!
Why must such obvious things be explained!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Argggggh!!!!!!!!!!! Shoot me now!.. NO Really! Shoot me! Some of you will jump at this chance!!!!!!!!!!!
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Coyote
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Yea, what coyote said!
B-17's had about a 1% hit rate. In this game you could do better dive bombing in a fighter. If the buffs were to be made historically acurate, this game would become nothing but a big furball because there would be no field captures and tactical/strategic bombing.
What this game needs is to create even more of an incentive to fly buffs, not eliminate the few incentives that exist.
eskimo
[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 03-22-2000).]
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The bottom line is that if you are in the fighter, then YOU get to decide when and if you will fight a buff. If you are frustrated with a buffs ability to defend itself, then you suck at buff attack! (like me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) Heck, they are dying 2 to 1 against fighters.
Quit your dang whining! What do you expect? How high should the kill ratio against buffs go? 20 to 1? You dweebs would probably still whine!
I can just see the posts now:
"Last night I attacked a formation of 20 B-17's and only shot down 16 of them before I was killed! This is outragous! Historically B-17's were only defended by school boy's with slingshots! This game sucks... bla bla bla"
Hey, I'll fly buffs at those odds! Sounds like fun... got nothing better to do than to fly for an hour just to be someones cannon fodder. I like being killed. In fact I think that I will just go taxi into the control tower about 75 times and then call it a night! I can die even more that way!
Think about it guys,... it's a GAME! If you don't want the other guy to stand a fair chance, then go buy a box sim and check the box that says "beginner"
eskimo
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(repost glitch)
eskimo
[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 03-22-2000).]
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(I can't see my reply and don't know if this is my 3rd resonce, or if they keep getting lost?)
Hmmm,... I don't see any of the GOOD buff hunters complaining about buff modeling and tactics.
eskimo
[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 03-22-2000).]
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Some of the Crew have taken to 30K+ buff runs, they are not a challenge, and I call them Dweeb Runs.
It was much more fun to intercept the Buffs at 30K+ in a G10, even though I was shot down.
Because I have only seen the Bish bomb our dar from this height I will only bomb the bish Dar. IF I see the bish stop I will stop.
It is a really lame thing to do, I would rather organize a realistic multi bomber raid with escorts!
Is this sim about Laser accurate bomb sites, Bombers that can easily fly above their service ceiling? or is it about ACM.
We need a strategic shift in thinking/game play to make bombers important, give them a mission.
We need a reason for folks to fly more buffs.
This will give folks a reason to attack bombers, and others a reason to defend them.
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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Downtown, no offense, but you are a Moron... Oh hell with it , I hope I offended u! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) I won't waste my breath destroying your weak points since It is highly doubtful your IQ level could handle the stress... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I flew a 26 or 28k sortie against the Nits last night, I hit a pony, who must have ditched, (No Kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) ) then I think I got a spit (Blew Up Real Good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) then I put a lot of rounds into a third spit, but the P-38 with him shot me down.
Much more interesting and enjoyable run.
Again my 30K protest will continue, I only know to fight fire with fire, I leave strategy to those who can think more originally.
When I stop seeing buffs over 30K I will stop flying buffs over 30K.
I wasn't making points, I was stating my opinion, you are entitled to yours, everyone has one, just like everyone has an A******.
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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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*punt*
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this thread is 3 months old... it's irelevant
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yea it is hog guns are still touch of death enabled. and alot of strato buffs (no 17 ever went 300 kn level at 15 k with a full bomb load and im not a pilot at all) alot of us feel that the 50s are still way to weak as far a damage ( am i a balistics expert no)but it aint a balistics question its a damage question. and i for one have just stoped chasin buffs ( just like in wb) because of the silly edge they have.