Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: mna78 on January 03, 2008, 07:40:20 AM
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As per the title really, my usual turn planes are not the best for this kind of flight, what would be a good choice?
Obviously criteria would be: good fuel loadout, decent amount of ammo, cannon's preferable, strong and fast up at 15k.
My intial thoughts would be for the P51D or FW190-A8 anyone got any input on this?
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A8 would be a good choice with the 30mms. It also has an A2A rocket capability that is fun but hard to use. If you intend to stay high and want to cruise a long way, the TA152 is a good choice also.
For .50 cal birds I'd take the 47N over the 51 for bomber work, 8 x 50 cals is a hoot and the N shines up high.
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If you can handle the slow speeds and climb rate (if you're chasing buffs up) the 190 A8 is the best.
If spot buffs in the tower and want to catch them as they come back or run them down on their way home, the 109 K4 is the best.
Should only take you about 3 minutes to climb past 10k with WEP off.
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Or 190D
20mm cannons, good climb rate to 15k, decent performance at altitude, good armor for attacking buffs
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152 or a G14 with Gondolas gets my vote. In Mid-War I like the Yak9T, fun plane, big gun.
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P-38. Good guns package, fast, climbs better than 190s, 2 engines to help you land after the single-ping-engine-death phenomenon.
190As are often just too slow to catch a bomber. If you're patrolling for them, already at alt, it's great, but not if you have to give chase.
109 G14 with gondolas also is good, as is the typhoon, tempest, la7 (but very short range), mosquito, and if you're patient (because it's slow) the 110G.
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The perfect buff hunter would have:
- good rate of climb and reasonable high speed to get into position
- heavy armament to ensure quick kills
- a radial engine because you will be shot in the face and a radiator hit ends all your attacks in a few moments
- sturdy airframe and / or good armor
- no perk tag, so you can afford it ;)
There is no ideal plane in the set, but we have a many which come close in some respects.
If you go out on anti buff patrols: 109A8, all P47's, the F4U's (especially the -C). All are durable (radial engines) and have ample firepower. The A8 is maybe the best dedcated bomber killer of them all: Small size, heavy armor and excessive firepower.
If you expect the buffs to be really high (25K and above), go for the Ta-152 or P-47N. The Spit 14 has similar good high altitude eprformance, but it's short legs and somewhat lesser armament make this plane more suitable for intercept missions (and it's perked).
Other interceptors: 109K-4 (no plane climbs faster to altitude and still has enough WEP for combat), G-14 with gondolas.
Typhoons & Tempest have speed & firepower for this job, but they are quite vulnerable, they easily lose their radiator.
Ultimative buff hunter is of course the 262 :t
But of course there are many more capable planes. Actually you can kill buffs in most of the planeset. Setting up your attacks properly is ten times more important than choosing the "best" plane for the job.
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The P-47s and the typhie have been mentioned, but in hindsight I think I'd lump them with the 190As. They're good if you're already up and searching for something to kill, but their really pathetic rate of climb makes them less than satisfactory for scrambling and chasing bombers
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Originally posted by Krusty
The P-47s and the typhie have been mentioned, but in hindsight I think I'd lump them with the 190As. They're good if you're already up and searching for something to kill, but their really pathetic rate of climb makes them less than satisfactory for scrambling and chasing bombers
This exactly why I put them under "anti buff patrol" and not under "interceptor" in my post...
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Originally posted by mna78
As per the title really, my usual turn planes are not the best for this kind of flight, what would be a good choice?
Obviously criteria would be: good fuel loadout, decent amount of ammo, cannon's preferable, strong and fast up at 15k.
My intial thoughts would be for the P51D or FW190-A8 anyone got any input on this?
P51 would be good, if it wasn't for its 50 cals...
Go with the FW190 (that includes the TA-152)
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Originally posted by trigger2
P51 would be good, if it wasn't for its 50 cals...
6 .50cals put every bomber out of service quickly. Even the B Pony will do.
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Here's my list of preferred buff hunters:
Bf 109G-14
Bf 109K-4
Bf 110G-2
F4U-1C
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Me 163
P-47D-25
P-47D-40
P-47N
Ta-152H
Tempest Mk V
Typhoon Mk I
Yak-9T
Generally, I leave buffs alone if I'm in anything else.
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When I hunt buffs I dedicate that flight to positioning to intercept buffs. For a buff patrol, the jugs rule with ponies coming in up close second. It's really easy to cockpit shot buffs from 800 out with the .50's once you learn your angles.
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Any German plane, with the exception of the 109E and the 109F, and the 109G2 w/o gondolas, would be fine for buff hunting.
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I dunno... I once bagged a full formation of B-17s in a 109E, and had 24 20mm rounds left over when I landed.... This was a little while before the 109s were redone.
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Mosquito.
Rate of climb is good up to relevant altitudes, great gun package, lots of ammo, super easy over-the-nose view, holds E very well for zooming after the pass and absorbs lots of damage as long as it is not in the cockpit.
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IMO Mossie not so good for buff hunting. I get single-ping pilot wounds every time, and I've unloaded all my hispanos in 2 passes before (rate of fire is ludicrous). It can, but I don't think it's very good at it.
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Originally posted by trigger2
P51 would be good, if it wasn't for its 50 cals...
Go with the FW190 (that includes the TA-152)
.50 cals are sufficient enough to take down any bomber in this game. It's just a matter of hitting at the convergence spot and at the right spot (wing, wing root, cockpit, elevators, etc...). Of course, as with all things in life, YMMV.
ack-ack
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Yak-9U has 1x 20mm with 120 rounds, and 2x 12.7mm with 170 rounds or so each. Still, I took out a spitfire and 3 B24s in a single sortie once. I had to set the last bomber on fire with just the 12.7mms, and it took 3 passes after I ran out of cannon, but I did it!
So, basically, my point just now is ... well, probably obvious, but aside from that, my point is, there are some plane much better suited to it, but ANY plane can kill bombers, regardless of the lack of weaponry onboard, as long as it can CATCH said bombers. Don't shy away from early 109s or yaks etc. I wouldn't choose 'em as my first pick, but once you get more used to it, have some fun.
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Originally posted by Krusty
So, basically, my point just now is ... well, probably obvious, but aside from that, my point is, there are some plane much better suited to it, but ANY plane can kill bombers, regardless of the lack of weaponry onboard, as long as it can CATCH said bombers. Don't shy away from early 109s or yaks etc. I wouldn't choose 'em as my first pick, but once you get more used to it, have some fun.
That reminds me:
Oh what a joyous day it was when I managed to shoot down 999000's B17 with my Hurricane I. :D
Of course I still wouldn't recommend flying the Hurri I for buff hunting missions ;)
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Originally posted by Krusty
IMO Mossie not so good for buff hunting. I get single-ping pilot wounds every time, and I've unloaded all my hispanos in 2 passes before (rate of fire is ludicrous). It can, but I don't think it's very good at it.
The mossie is a great buff killer but you have to be patient and set up your aproach carefully. I try to get at least 3.5K ahead of the buffs, off set at about a 45 dgree angle, and about 1500ft above them. Turn into them and get a front quarter angle shot into the cockpits. If I miss I usually get a couple of engines or start a fuel fire which is a good kill, just have to wait a little bit for it.
That tactic works real well for the mossie unless your going up against someone who guns really well, and in that case it really doesn't matter what your flying.
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LOL got a film or screencap of that hurr1 kill? :D
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Originally posted by Krusty
LOL got a film or screencap of that hurr1 kill? :D
Unfornaturely not :(
(But it's one of that few sorties I actually remember. Tour 92, Ndisles. Took me a century to climb to 12k)
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Originally posted by Lusche
But of course there are many more capable planes. Actually you can kill buffs in most of the planeset. Setting up your attacks properly is ten times more important than choosing the "best" plane for the job.
Case in point.
While in the EW recently spotted a radar contact closing on the base I was at. Upped my Hurri MK1 in anticipation of a bit of fun, got above the approaching dot only to discover that it was a set of 88's inbound. Thought, what the he**, and dove in aiming for the cockpit. 1 down. Climbed back on my perch and set up for the next run. In the end all three buffs went down with me only receiving a few scratches.
Later in the LW heard about inbound buffs and took up a 110G2, guns only, to intercept. Wound up chasing the buffs across a full sector before I could get within range, in short I got impatient and wound up right off their dead six position where I died instantly.
The moral of this story is, as Lusche so eloquently, pointed out.
It's not the plane, it's the method of your attack.
With the gun package of the 110G2 had I gotten ahead of the buffs and set up a diving attack on the formation, as I did with the Hurri MK1, the outcome would have been entirely different.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
The mossie is a great buff killer but you have to be patient and set up your aproach carefully. I try to get at least 3.5K ahead of the buffs, off set at about a 45 dgree angle, and about 1500ft above them. Turn into them and get a front quarter angle shot into the cockpits.
I've tried the mossie before in late war for buff hunting and found it to be very much lacking personally. It just doesn't compete in the MA compared to the other aircraft are available for the purpose. Positioning takes too long, compresses rather quickly, and burns E off too quickly to be viable for me at least.
When you are buff hunting in MA alot of times you are dealing with buffs low-alt or on the deck and the mossie just doesn't have the means to regain it's position back unless you knock 2 bombers out in one pass. I've often found myself in the position of either A) chasing a shot right up their arse, or B) being picked while trying to buff hunt in a mossie.
Added on top of that is the mossies size and tendency to turn into a fireball after a couple pings vs. the laser .50's of most buff pilots and you get yourself a bad experience quickly.
The jug can take more damage and is more accurate(for me at least) at much longer ranges than the mossie. You can also pretty much keep your E state the same and dispatch the formation at the same time in a jug. It's superior visibility just tilts the scale more towards the jugs favor.
I may just be used to the jug for this purpose and that is making me biased, but the points I tried to make above have me tending to think that the mossie is a poor buff hunter overall, at least in the LW enviroment and even moreso for someone who is new enough to be asking which plane to hunt buffs in.
EDIT: if the OP would like films of angles to take when hunting buffs with .50's I'd be more than glad to provide them, just PM me.
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Originally posted by trotter
Or 190D
20mm cannons, good climb rate to 15k, decent performance at altitude, good armor for attacking buffs
The Dora is only good if you don't get shot.
That big old annular radiator hangin' out the front is a magnet for linked .50cal fire and will very quickly put an end to your powered flight time.
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Suprised no one said c205 yet. I have very good luck killing bombers with this plane. It has an awsome climb rate, very good cannons, and has good performance up high. I can usually kill a fight of bombers in 3-4 passes. It's only down fall is range.
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I don't say C205 because I've unloaded all 500 rounds evenly into all 3 planes of a B-24 formation and not got the kill til the guy died over his runway (death of a 1000 paper cuts!)
If you're in position sure, but it generally is rather slow to catch a full-speed bomber set.
Now, if only bombers cruised at historical speeds...
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Originally posted by bushi
Added on top of that is the mossies size and tendency to turn into a fireball after a couple pings vs. the laser .50's of most buff pilots and you get yourself a bad experience quickly.
Mossies no longer seem to be prone to turning into fireballs.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mossies no longer seem to be prone to turning into fireballs.
That's good to know. I like to take a mossie up from time to time and am glad that they adjusted that. Still, it's a big target with a big cockpit to shoot at for laser mgs and I really don't think it's a new-person friendly plane to hunt buffs in at all. Going after buffs is hard enough until you get the hang of it, to start doing it in a mossie is just more of a handicap.
Then again, opinions are like, well you know. I am sure there are some people that might do a fine job starting in a mossie to buff hunt, but I think they are few and far between.
EDIT: Just to toss this in, I am talking about mossies in regards to AH2 and not their actual service.
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Mossie is probably the best buff killer in the game. The ballistics on the 20mm and center mounting makes it easy to reach out and tag buffs well beyond convergence of the buff guns. At the same time the high rate of fire puts alot of lead on target. The mossie is fine up till 480 or there abouts so the comments on keeping E up baffle me....mossie basically kills a buff every pass.
The A-20 is also a pretty good buff killer as long as you dont press your luck to far. It's actually much more vulnerable then the mossie...
I dont generally look for buffs but if they happen to show up I'll shoot them. I dont normally ever get killed by buffs unless I'm trying to keep a base up and get trapped into a rear attack....
Was 9-1 vs B-17's, 12-1 vs B-24's, 11-1 vs B-25's...
B-26's give me more fits...10-3
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Originally posted by humble
Mossie is probably the best buff killer in the game. The ballistics on the 20mm and center mounting makes it easy to reach out and tag buffs well beyond convergence of the buff guns. At the same time the high rate of fire puts alot of lead on target. The mossie is fine up till 480 or there abouts so the comments on keeping E up baffle me....mossie basically kills a buff every pass.
Was 9-1 vs B-17's, 12-1 vs B-24's, 11-1 vs B-25's...
B-26's give me more fits...10-3
I could be flying them wrong when I take them up, I grant that. I just have more success with a jug or p51 than any other plane when buff hunting.
Currently this tour:
5-0 vs lancs, 3-0 vs 24's, 2-0 vs 25's, a smattering of the others with no deaths to buffs using a jug.
Previous full tour:
65-7 vs B24's, 43-1 vs lancs, 28-4 vs B17's, 20-1 vs B26' and a smattering of others.
Maybe the jug and pony have just been good to me while swatting down bombers, I dunno. Mossies just don't do it for me when buff hunting.
EDIT: Yes, I like to hunt buffs :)
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p-47 is the only p i use for buff hunting and normaly i use a 109-k4
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I dont have alot of time in the mossie per se. I flew it alot over the last tour...I enjoy the A-20 alot more and IMO it excels in MA 1 on 1's compared to the mossie. However the mossies speed and firepower more then compensate for its much poorer stability at high AoA in a multicon enviornment. I actually reposted an old buff kill clip on the BBS recently...
cockpit shot (http://az-dsl.com/snaphook/Buffrun.ahf)
Typical buff attack profile for me...orient on the cockpit and then one wing root. In the mossie I can often get a 2nd buff if the original shot on the cockpit hits the lead...
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Originally posted by Lusche
That reminds me:
Oh what a joyous day it was when I managed to shoot down 999000's B17 with my Hurricane I. :D
Of course I still wouldn't recommend flying the Hurri I for buff hunting missions ;)
I actually killed 2 B-26's in a Hurri I one day. :)
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Thanks for all the responses, tried a P47 yesterday got to get used to looking down whilst cruising around at 15k flew straight over a set until a nearby squadie called out they position. Got to practise with those .50cals too...
And just now in MA I upped a 109-K4 to intercept a buff raid, that 30mm is deadly, a few rounds & BOOOM!!!
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Originally posted by Krusty
I don't say C205 because I've unloaded all 500 rounds evenly into all 3 planes of a B-24 formation and not got the kill til the guy died over his runway (death of a 1000 paper cuts!)
If you're in position sure, but it generally is rather slow to catch a full-speed bomber set.
Now, if only bombers cruised at historical speeds...
OK but on the Relative Projectile Strength page it shows the 20mm on 205 the second hardest hitting in the game...second to the Hipanos. B-17's are the only buff in the game that gives me fits. Lancs are by far the easiest. I target one spot on buffs... the inner left hand engine. Catch that on fire and wait till the boom! I will admit the 30mm are far better but whats the challenge of that:lol
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The 205 has the exact same gun as the Fw190 and Me109s, a Mg151/20. I don't think it's that strong. There are 2 types of Hispanos, those are the strongest top 2, then there's the US M2, which ties Hispano, then I think there's a Japanese gun that's stronger than the MG151/20.
Sometimes the 205 can kill bombers. Don't get me wrong. But it's happened enough times that it sticks out in my mind where a 205 can unload and not do much damage.
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The bigger problem with the 205 is that it doesn't take damage that well. I can kill buffs in Spits too but if I get shot there goes a wing.
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The BEST, IMNSHO, was the 3x20mm gondolas armed G-10. Very good ROC, high speed, very stable gun platform, big punch. But they took it away. Maybe to many whines from buff drivers :lol :huh
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G14 with 3x20mm does the same thing. G14 is the new "G10" of old. Just a little slower above, say, 18k+ (still a worthy bomber killer, though)
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Hello mate, the G-10 was much faster and better climber for high-alt intercepts. Compared with the G-10, above 20K the G-14 is a sitting duck.
Think about a K-4 with gondolas .... :cool:
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What ever im in. Buff's are easy to kill if you know where to hit them.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
What ever im in. Buff's are easy to kill if you know where to hit them.
Well, 2 pages of information about the best aircraft for buff hunting and we all missed the obvious.
:rolleyes:
...-Gixer
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If I'm alone vs. a formation of 3 buffs, e.g. B24s, I like to make 90 degree slashing attacks because it minimizes the chance of taking damage myself. For this reason, I don't find the 6x.50 cal armament very effective, but anything with 2 high velocity 20mm or an Mk 108 will do.
190A8 with the 30mm package is my first choice for bombers below 20k ft. Above 20k ft the 152 is worth consideration, if you can get up there in time.;)
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without a doubt, the Schwalbe....hands down...
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Originally posted by Gixer
Well, 2 pages of information about the best aircraft for buff hunting and we all missed the obvious.
:rolleyes:
...-Gixer
If you can see Vanscrew, he can see you. If you can't see Vanscrew, you may be only seconds away from death.
ack-ack
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My personal preferences if I'm upping just to look for buffs.
1. 262
2. 110G-2
3. 109G-14 with gondolas
That said I've shot more down the last couple months with any F4U. Just aim for an engine and set a blaze.
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The .50s are highly underrated for buff busting. I've landed 7 buffs in a P-51B- fire is your friend.
Hit a fuel tank, pull out, let him kersplode, do it again.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If you can see Vanscrew, he can see you. If you can't see Vanscrew, you may be only seconds away from death.
ack-ack
I don't play in GV's mate. Are you saying Vanscrew is so good either way I'm dead? :rofl
What on earth are you going on about?
...-Gixer
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I like the 38 for buff hunting even though you will hear a lot of no-no's from people about that haha. Honestly though, I rarely ever get pw's in that aircraft. 95% of the time (and that's no exaggeration) when I get a pw, I'm also missing half of my aircraft, so it doesn't really matter.
I say 38, because it has pretty decent climb, and speed compared to buffs.
Great range, so you don't need as much fuel, but can still stay with them if you need to chase, etc.
Armament is great, especially the ballistics, hitting power, and centerline.
Two of everything, hehe, gets you home if you take damage.
So far this tour,
8-0 vs B-24's
5-0 vs Lancaster's
3-0 vs B-26's
Havn't meet any of the other bombers, so I'm doing alright I guess, being 16-0 on them.
donkey
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Originally posted by Lusche
6 .50cals put every bomber out of service quickly. Even the B Pony will do.
From the perspective of a buff driver, I hate to see anything above my altitude and not on my 6... this means that I'm facing a high deflection, slashing attack the makes for a difficult defense. This is what the experienced buff hunters do... The ones I love to see, come up clawing for altitude on my six. They usually have an appointment in the tower that I am happy to facilitate.
To paraphrase many: "it's not the airplane but the pilot".
When Hunting buffs I go for something with cannons like the A8 or Dora if I'm at altitude... A spit16 or 109K if I'm trying to intercept.
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Originally posted by Gixer
I don't play in GV's mate. Are you saying Vanscrew is so good either way I'm dead? :rofl
What on earth are you going on about?
...-Gixer
Hehe...guess they don't have chuch norris jokes on the bottom of the planet
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Krusty
IMO Mossie not so good for buff hunting. I get single-ping pilot wounds every time, and I've unloaded all my hispanos in 2 passes before (rate of fire is ludicrous). It can, but I don't think it's very good at it.
same reason i wouldnt use a p38 either....
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A8 and G14
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Originally posted by Overlag
same reason i wouldnt use a p38 either....
If you set up your attack right, there is little fear of getting a pilot wound or shot down. I always come in fast and at a steep angle, fire at the lead bomber, destroy it. Extend, climb and repeat. 3 passes, 3 kills and no pilot wound.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Hehe...guess they don't have chuch norris jokes on the bottom of the planet
ack-ack
Errrr... No. :D
...-Gixer
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As it has been said before, and I agree with it, It's not the plane, it's the way you attack.
Donkey, in my opinion the 38 is one of the worst (but it's not) Because it's such a large target and is very easy to get a PW...maybe you've just been getting lucky or the bombers couldn't gun. Either way, if you don't know what you are doing, it's very easy to get killed by buffs in any plane. But to list a few of my favorite buff hunters: Ta-152, 190-D9 or A8, 109-G14 and K4. But I kill a lot of buffs with .50 cal American planes (Usually 51 (both models) or F4U-1A or D.)
#S#
Banshee7
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Originally posted by Gixer
Errrr... No. :D
...-Gixer
Lucky you ^__^
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Banshee7
But to list a few of my favorite buff hunters: Ta-152, 190-D9 or A8, 109-G14 and K4. But I kill a lot of buffs with .50 cal American planes (Usually 51 (both models) or F4U-1A or D.)
#S#
Banshee7
What about the 262 and 163? Haven't done it in a while but nothing funnier then busting up someones 2 hour HQ mission with a 10min flight in a 163.
Personally If I want to frustrate buffs I'll grab a 262, but in general I just don't bother with them.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
What about the 262 and 163? Haven't done it in a while but nothing funnier then busting up someones 2 hour HQ mission with a 10min flight in a 163.
Personally If I want to frustrate buffs I'll grab a 262, but in general I just don't bother with them.
...-Gixer
I hate them ragged POS planes :D I occassionally take one up but i like to gain more perkies than use em:aok
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Originally posted by Banshee7
As it has been said before, and I agree with it, It's not the plane, it's the way you attack.
Donkey, in my opinion the 38 is one of the worst (but it's not) Because it's such a large target and is very easy to get a PW...maybe you've just been getting lucky or the bombers couldn't gun. Either way, if you don't know what you are doing, it's very easy to get killed by buffs in any plane. But to list a few of my favorite buff hunters: Ta-152, 190-D9 or A8, 109-G14 and K4. But I kill a lot of buffs with .50 cal American planes (Usually 51 (both models) or F4U-1A or D.)
#S#
Banshee7
I guess you're speaking from you experience, so you must not being flying the 38 the "right" way. I have only gotten ONE, yes one, pw this tour so far combined with the last tour (I seem to lose more ailerons then anything else), and no, I don't just BnZ so as to stay "safe."
What's more, if you attack buffs right, they will see a very slim profile, which is smaller then some other single engine planes. All it is is setting up your attack.
Feel free to disagree with me.:aok
donkey
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Not disagreeing with ya....just saying what happens to me. PW is not as big of an issue as losing Engine oil for me. That and a few rudders, ailerons.....the whole shi-bang
#S#
Banshee7
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If you absolutely need to fly a bomber that can eat fighters for lunch then fly the Dragon. This month, so far, Im 25K to 11D in KI67s with about 30 sent home with their pants on fire. Thats in attacks on airfield ords only from 10,000' to 14,000'.
Come into an airfield at 4,000' in B-24s, dancing along in the konga line, and you deserve what you get. I see these heavy cannoned fighters just chew them to death.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
If you absolutely need to fly a bomber that can eat fighters for lunch then fly the Dragon. This month, so far, Im 25K to 11D in KI67s with about 30 sent home with their pants on fire. Thats in attacks on airfield ords only from 10,000' to 14,000'.
Come into an airfield at 4,000' in B-24s, dancing along in the konga line, and you deserve what you get. I see these heavy cannoned fighters just chew them to death.
I don't think he meant hunting WITH buffs. I think he meant hunting FOR them. :rolleyes: