Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: humble on January 03, 2008, 10:27:50 AM
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I knew that the F6F-5P was operational in the ETO during the invasion of southern France (VOF-1) and that is was deployed thruout the pacific integrated into most F6F equipped squads (along with the F6F-5N). I didnt know that it actually served at squadron strength in the PAC. VF-84 apparently flew a mix of F6F-5P's and N's in Feb/May 1945 prior to the Bunker Hill being kamikazed on May 11, 1945. I always thought only the VOF squads flew the F6FP (or FM-2) at squadron strength. This came from a piece of artwork I stumbled across that had a VF-84 F6F-5P along with some historical blurb.
Anyway I certainly hope that when the F6F's get redone that the 5P loadout is added as an option (should be either an ENY 5 bird or light perk IMO)....
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You will find that almost ALL -Ps were armed with .50cals only.
The majority of all photographs show this. I've only seen a few test planes with the cannons.
IMO the F6F should NEVER get cannons. Ever. It would be like adding cannons to the P-51. It just didn't have 'em (not counting the Allison-engined early model)
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Well, the -5N replaced the inboard .50s with 20mm. But we're not likely to get ANY nightfighters, so that's beside the point
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Originally posted by Krusty
You will find that almost ALL -Ps were armed with .50cals only.
The majority of all photographs show this. I've only seen a few test planes with the cannons.
IMO the F6F should NEVER get cannons. Ever. It would be like adding cannons to the P-51. It just didn't have 'em (not counting the Allison-engined early model)
VOF-1 flew the F6F5-P complete with cannon in support of the invasion of southern France. All 942 british F6F-5's (gannett?) were equipped with the 20mm package...which was designed from the start (all F6F-5's could accept the 20mm option with required field mods). Most of the P's & N's flew with the 20mm option if the belt links for the 20mm were available (which was the biggest problem). Significantly more 20mm armed F6F's saw combat then the Ta-152's or Nikki's we have here...as well as the -C hog. The F6F-5N's & P's were utilized for standard duties more often then not. Each squad had a few P's and N's...and they were cannon armed when logistics supported it (if they had 20mm links available).
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Originally posted by humble
VOF-1 flew the F6F5-P complete with cannon in support of the invasion of southern France. All 942 british F6F-5's (gannett?) were equipped with the 20mm package...which was designed from the start (all F6F-5's could accept the 20mm option with required field mods). Most of the P's & N's flew with the 20mm option if the belt links for the 20mm were available (which was the biggest problem). Significantly more 20mm armed F6F's saw combat then the Ta-152's or Nikki's we have here...as well as the -C hog. The F6F-5N's & P's were utilized for standard duties more often then not. Each squad had a few P's and N's...and they were cannon armed when logistics supported it (if they had 20mm links available).
the f6 with the 20 only had 2 and 4 50 cals
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Show me some pictures. If nearly a thousand of these planes served, there would be at least a few dozen photos of SOME of them.
Show me some pictures of these 20mm armed planes in service.
Then I might agree with you.
So far, there are NO photos that I've seen that show a 20mm armed Hellcat in service. [EDIT: Not counting radome-wielding night fighters] There's one really low res photo that's blurry of 2 planes in formation, but no notes, no location (could be stateside testing). The only other photos are on the production line or in test plane colors.
Let's put it this way.... Over 200 n1k2s served. About 12-24 Ta-152s served (12 for sure, 12 more were supposed to be sent). We have MANY photos of these planes, in many situations, in many states of repair/disrepair. They are easily proven to have existed just by looking at them and saying "Oh, there you are!"
We can't even do that for the F6F with 20mms.
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Pics have already been posted of VOF-1 planes in action that show the 20mm. It's also readily avialable in the unit histories. The configuration of the Gannetts is also readily available as well as documentation regarding the often fruitless search for appropriate gun belt links for the 20mm in the PAC.
The 20mm was not widely used in the F6F in US service, however it was designed to carry the 20mm from the beginning. VOF-1 did use the 20mm loadout and it was used on both the P and N in the PAC (however no question the 6 x .50 was in wider use on the P){I believe the N's almost always had the 20mm loadout.}
This isnt about "proving" anything, over 1400 P's were delivered with 20mm installed. They were removed in the field if so desired....but they came from the factory with the 20mm option.
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Well ... talk to Maj. R. Bruce Porter.
He flew a cannon equipped Grumman F6F-5N Hellcat night fighter with the VMF-542N during the Battle of Okinawa.
He assumed command of VMF-542 from Maj. W C Kellum and also took command of his F6F-5N ... F(N)76 BuNo 78669 ... it was the only cannon armed F6F in the squadron.
Kellum named the plane ... Millie Lou ... but Porter renamed it to ... Black Death.
He scored a very rare 2 kills in 1 night sortie, which combined with his other Corsair kills, made him an ace.
The 20mm option, as snapshook pointed out, was available for all F6F-5 models. It was typically the N and P variants that used the 20mm option. The 20mm were preferred for the night fighters due to the fact that they had to get real close and wanted to dispatch their prey quickly and get out of harm's way.
I think the number (if one could find such numbers) of F6Fs that flew with the 20mm option, it would far outnumber the amount of 3 cannon La-7s that flew during the war.
I personally don't think that the F6F needs the cannon option, but if and when HTC gets around to "perking" gun packages, it would be a cool addition to add the 20mm option to the F6F ... same as the 20mm "perk" package F4U and the 3 cannon "perk" package for the La-7.
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A LOT of things came from the factories sometimes, and sometimes they never saw any action period. Just saying "they came from the factory" means nothing. Look at the USN example of -Ps, they came from the factory with 20mms installed but there's next to no visual proof that they ever used them. In fact there's an abundance of proof to the contrary. A lot of -Ns also switched to all 50cals, also.
Simply saying "It came from the factory" is wishful thinking in this case. We can go back to the Spit Vc with 4x20mm example again, too. It's been rehashed many a time.
What does the Fairey Gannet (ugliest plane ever designed in WW2) have to do with F6Fs' armament?
Oh, and just saying that the brits had the belt links means they used the ammo is a spurious claim. You need to go one step further.
Like I said, if there's supposedly almost a thousand of these planes in service there would be photographic proof.
As noted in one of the longer previous 20mm-on-hellcat-posts, I noted that about half of the -Ps were supposed to go to the Brits, but were diverted to the pacific. They never got there in time, and at war's end were shoved overboard into the sea. That alone would account for a large number of them. Still, with about 400+ of these around, there should be SOME photos, right? I haven't seen any. If you've got some post them.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
The 20mm option, as snapshook pointed out, was available for all F6F-5 models.
That's one of the most misleading quotes from all the threads on this matter.
The mere fact that the wing could physically HOLD the gun does not mean it was an available option for the plane. Look at spitfires. They COULD mount a hispano inboard and outboard but they never did. It was physically possible, but NOT an option. Nobody did it. It's also physically possible to fill all the inner spaces of the wings and fuselage on a plane with a pilot's clothes and personal affects on ferry trips. It was NOT an option during combat sorties.
Spurious arguments, and highly misleading to say "they could all have it as an option" -- none but the night fighters did, and even those often had 50cals instead.
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Originally posted by Krusty
A LOT of things came from the factories sometimes, and sometimes they never saw any action period. Just saying "they came from the factory" means nothing. Look at the USN example of -Ps, they came from the factory with 20mms installed but there's next to no visual proof that they ever used them. In fact there's an abundance of proof to the contrary. A lot of -Ns also switched to all 50cals, also.
Following three weeks of uneventful missions, Porter flew night CAP on June 15, 1945. Having just received a letter from his fiancee, he was in a positive mood. He took off into a completely black night, with thick cloud cover and no moonlight. He evaded gunfire from some jumpy naval AA crews, and checked out his radar, machine guns, and fuel. He reported in to his ground control office (GCI) on Ie Shima, whose ground-based radar had the range to pick up distant bogeys. He ("Topaz One") and the GCI ("Handyman") stayed in contact as he circled lazily for almost an hour. Then "Topaz from Handyman, I have a bogey for you. Range 30 miles at 10 o'clock. Angel 13." The bogey had 3,000 feet of altitude on Porter, so he dropped tanks, firewalled the throttle, and armed his guns. The GCI kept reporting the closing distance, "Fifteen miles ... Ten miles ... Six miles"
At range three miles, Porter turned onto the course that "Handyman" indicated would bring him up behind the bogey. When he flipped on his Hellcat's radar, the bogey was still out of its range. Trusting in the GCI's guidance, Porter flew on; in a few minutes a tiny orange blip appeared at the top of his radar screen. He was right on target. "Contact" he reported to "Handyman." He looked to see if he could spot his target; in a few seconds he saw the bogey's exhaust flames and he satisfied himself that he was looking at a Ki-45 Nick twin-engine fighter, about 350 feet ahead. He opened up with all .50 caliber machine guns and the slower-firing 20mm cannon. As his machine guns used up ammo quickly, he let up on them, but continued with the 20mm, wanting to flame the Nick for a sure kill. Soon enough flames swept over the fuselage and the Nick lurched heavily to the right. Porter's tracer fire swept through the canopy. It was all over in about 2 seconds; he doubted that the pilot ever knew what hit him. "Handyman" radioed that the bogey had disappeared from his radar screen. Porter had scored his fourth confirmed kill.
That same night, an hour later: "Hello Topaz One from Handyman. I've got another bogey for you. Boegey at Angels 14. Indicated 180 knots. Vector 145 at Angels 13." Porter started the stern chase and altitude climb needed to close on the bogey, hoping that he could get in range before the bogey reached the fleet and its indiscriminate AA fire. The stern chase seemed to take forever, as "Handyman" radioed the closing range and altitude. Convinced that he was behind a Betty bomber, with its tail machine gunner, Porter had to be careful. He approached the Betty from just underneath and repeated his deadly gunfire. Once again the combined .50 caliber and 20mm rounds found their target; this time the Betty exploded in an expanding ball of exploding fuel. "Handyman" confirmed this kill as well. Porter was an ace!
(http://highironillustrations.com/rogues_pics/bruce_porter_2.jpg)
Porter walking down flight line (though you can't see them, the plane behind him is his personal plane "Black Death" armed with 4x .50 cals and 2x 20mm cannons.
(http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/HELLCAT.jpg)
Though you can't see it very well, restored F6F-5N with 20mm cannons.
(http://www.msmodelismo.net/artigos/noturno1/03.jpg)
(http://www.msmodelismo.net/artigos/noturno1/02.jpg)
As you can see in the above photos, these F6F-5N were equipped with 20mm cannons.
ack-ack
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Ack-Ack, that's the radome-wielding version (note it says "flipped on his radar"
The request everybody has been asking for (and will til perdition) is for a normal hellcat with 20mms (no radar radome or any other equipment).
Like I said, some of the night fighters had 'em. I've seen photos of many with wing radomes but all 50cals (no 20mms), so there were a lot of those too.
But show me a NON-NIGHT-FIGHTER that had the 20mms, in service. It's a mythical beast up to this point.
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Originally posted by Krusty
That's one of the most misleading quotes from all the threads on this matter.
The mere fact that the wing could physically HOLD the gun does not mean it was an available option for the plane. Look at spitfires. They COULD mount a hispano inboard and outboard but they never did. It was physically possible, but NOT an option. Nobody did it. It's also physically possible to fill all the inner spaces of the wings and fuselage on a plane with a pilot's clothes and personal affects on ferry trips. It was NOT an option during combat sorties.
Spurious arguments, and highly misleading to say "they could all have it as an option" -- none but the night fighters did, and even those often had 50cals instead.
Listen ... don't go getting testy, snotty, and/or condecending here.
I was simply re-enforcing the fact that the wing design could accommodate the option. I never inferred that because of that, 1000s were in action with the 20mm package.
Regardless of what you say or you needing "picture" proof ... there were cannon equipped F6F-5 in service. Just cause you can't find a picture doesn't mean they weren't used.
It is a known and documented fact that Maj. Porter flew a cannon armed F6F-5N and scored 2 confirmed kills with that plane. I can't imagine that he was the ONLY pilot in all of the Pacific that flew a cannon armed F6F-5N of the 1,400+ F6F-5Ns that were delivered.
Here is 4 of them ...
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/8d27f2dfc16687b449977b9e635a33fb2g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=8ubomwulmio&thumb=4)
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Sorry for my tone, but this has been rehashed over and over.
FYI: those are -Ns. Yes, some -Ns had 20mms (not too many, though).
The ever-ongoing-never-ending request for -5Ps (without radar equipment reducing the performance) is the issue at hand. These are just like the F6F we have in-game, only with 20mm.
Ack-ack:
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
(http://highironillustrations.com/rogues_pics/bruce_porter_2.jpg)
Porter walking down flight line (though you can't see them, the plane behind him is his personal plane "Black Death" armed with 4x .50 cals and 2x 20mm cannons.
(http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/HELLCAT.jpg)
Though you can't see it very well, restored F6F-5N with 20mm cannons.
(http://www.msmodelismo.net/artigos/noturno1/03.jpg)
Those are ALL 50call planes. No 20mms. The 20mms stick out about a foot and a half and have a huge round fairing at the base.
(http://www.msmodelismo.net/artigos/noturno1/02.jpg)
As you can see in the above photos, these F6F-5N were equipped with 20mm cannons.
ack-ack
THAT one has a 20mm. You can see the difference between it and the previous pictures.
Only, it's a -N night fighter. The -P didn't have the radome and that's why this is requested over and over. No real chance this game will ever get dedicated night fighters, and nobody would want the drop in performance from the equipment. The issue regarding the -P is that just about none had 20mms.
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Okay, just to clarify the issue, as it's getting muddled:
F6F-5N:
Night fighter. Some (not many) had 20mms. Not going to be in the game ever IMO.
F6F-5P:
Photo recon. Used as day fighter. None have been shown to have used 20mm thus far. This has been heavily requested as an excuse to tack on 2 hispanos to the currently-modeled F6F-5 in-game. Frivilous request, as it seems almost NONE had 20mms, let alone the claims of 900+.
Now, if you have photos of a -5P.... that's another matter.
It's all old hat. My tone was quite rude earlier because it's repetitive that this keeps popping up. Sorry for being rude (honestly).
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You're correct, the 20mm loadout was mostly used by the night fighting Hellcats for the reason stated by someone else earlier in this thread.
Another reason why 20mm cannons weren't widely used on the Hellcat wasn't as much due to any linkage shortage but rather due to incorrect lubrication oil for the cannons. The lubrication used would freeze up at higher altitudes and an order went out that cannon equipped fighters couldn't go above 12,000ft as a result until the correct lubrication oil that was used in the ETO could be sent to the PTO.
ack-ack
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The F6F-5 was configured at the factory to accept a mixed armament of two 20mm cannon and four .50 caliber machine guns. Aside from the -5N nightfighters, all Hellcats issued to the U.S. Navy were equipped with the standard armament package of six .50 calibers. I fired off an e-mail to Barrett Tillman a couple of years ago asking him if he had any knowledge of U.S. Hellcats being armed with 20mm cannon while on duty during WW II, and he replied that he had never run across any records stating that that was the case.
On the other hand, I have run across references in the past that the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm equipped some of its American built aircraft with cannon. Given the British military's propensity for equipping every monoplane fighter in its arsenal with mixed gun packages including both cannon and machine guns, it would be highly unlikely that they did NOT arm some of their Hellcats and Corsairs in such a manner. A lack of pictures means nothing in this case, because photos of American aircraft in the service of the British Navy are a good deal scarcer than those of the same aircraft in American service.
Regards, Shuckins
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The brits didn't have many hellcats, let along -5Ps. Most were diverted to the Pacific US fleets, and dumped overboard when they arrived too late.
If they had any -5Ps they would be a very small minority. They also did not go through the process of sticking 20mms onto the existing Hellcats they had, so they may not have had any on the -5Ps either.
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Actually, Krusty, the British accepted nearly 1,300 Hellcats under the Lend-Lease program. That is hardly a "few." British carriers and their American fighter aircraft were far more active in the Atlantic than they were in the Pacific. Hellcat and Corsair squadrons provided fighter cover for several attacks on the Tirpitz, to name just one of the many actions that they took part in.
Given the numbers involved, I maintain that it is more than just a little possible that the Fleet Air Arm flew some of their Hellcats armed with cannon.
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1300 seems a bit high from what I've read. Granted I've not been in contact with the experts or anything.
Of those 1300, the question is : How many were -Ps, and how many -Ps had 20mms? Definitely some. The brits loved their hispanos. But overall? A small amount is my guess.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Okay, just to clarify the issue, as it's getting muddled:
F6F-5N:
Night fighter. Some (not many) had 20mms. Not going to be in the game ever IMO.
All F6F-5Ns were used for daytime ops as well. When a max effort was ordered, the -5Ns loaded bombs and flew. Many -5Ns flew BARCAP sorties during daylight hours. Indeed, the F6F-5Ns often had more flight time on the airframes than the standard F6F-5 as they would often be flown around the clock.
Here's an example...
(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g300000/g305244.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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What is the round thing on the right wing of the f6f? Extra gas , radar? just wondering.
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Originally posted by Krusty
1300 seems a bit high from what I've read. Granted I've not been in contact with the experts or anything.
Britain took delivery of 252 Hellcat I (F6F-3) and 930 Hellcat II (F6F-5). Britain also received 22 F6F-3N and 80 F6F-5N fighters.
Total delivered to Britain was 1,284 F6Fs of all types.
A total of 1,434 F6F-5Ns were delivered by Grumman. It is estimated that 370 F6F-5Ns were delivered with factory fitted 20mm cannon, the guns coming from stocks delivered to Grumman for F7F-1 production (delayed by the Navy). These guns were not fitted with flash hiders, because they were originally issued for the F7F-1, which was a day fighter. Thus, F6F-5N pilots suffered severe flash blindness when firing the guns in the dark. Some units had flash hiders fabricated by the carrier's machine shops. Other units simply removed the guns and refit .50 cal Brownings in their place. Most units suffered with ammo feed jams. In these cases, careful stoning (deburring and breaking sharp edges) of the bolts and removal of all traces of cosmoline cured the problem.
I know of only one photo of an F6F-5P armed with 20mm... I have posted it to this forum in the past.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
What is the round thing on the right wing of the f6f? Extra gas , radar? just wondering.
Radar dome... Note that twice as many F6F-5Ns saw combat service as P-61s...
The Hellcat was far and away the most numerous and successful US night fighter in WWII.
My regards,
Widewing
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(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/VOF-1-F6F-5P.jpg)
As I said in my initial post the only squadron level use of the F6F-5P armed with 20mm cannon that I'm aware of is VOF-1. So I was a bit suprised to se that VF-84 had the P in large numbers (if in fact that is correct). It was part of the same task force that had the enterprise flying dedicated nighttime and dusk/dawn patrols vs the japanese mainland and received a number of 5N's after the Bunker Hill was hit.
Everything I've read shows that the 5P's were factory configured with the 20mm option.
Leaving everything else aside VOF-1's use would "qualify" the 5P by every standard I've seen argued. It saw combat, killed enemy planes and suffered losses on a squadron level in sustained combat.
I'd be curious how the use played out, after all the F6F is hardly "uber" compared to some late war rides and we have the 3 x 20mm loadout for the la-7 which was certainly a seldom used variation. Just using WW's number you had more 5N's then 3 x 20mm la-7s in service. Make it a perk ride on par with the C hog if need be...
Now moving on to the A-20 with the 4 x20mm loadout......:D
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Originally posted by humble
I knew that the F6F-5P was operational in the ETO during the invasion of southern France (VOF-1) and that is was deployed thruout the pacific integrated into most F6F equipped squads (along with the F6F-5N). I didnt know that it actually served at squadron strength in the PAC. VF-84 apparently flew a mix of F6F-5P's and N's in Feb/May 1945 prior to the Bunker Hill being kamikazed on May 11, 1945. I always thought only the VOF squads flew the F6FP (or FM-2) at squadron strength. This came from a piece of artwork I stumbled across that had a VF-84 F6F-5P along with some historical blurb.
Anyway I certainly hope that when the F6F's get redone that the 5P loadout is added as an option (should be either an ENY 5 bird or light perk IMO)....
VF-84 was flying F4U-1D's in February 1945. They did have a handful of F6F5-N's and F6F5-P's as per normal Navy/Marine Corps aircraft distribution for VF and VMF squadrons. Aircraft assigned to VF-84 were: (26) F4U-1D, (6) F6F-5P, (4) F6F-5N. VOF-1 was flying normal F6F-5's during Operation Dragoon. They didn't receive their first F6F-5P until October 1944. Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 3 October 1944 were: (20) F6F-5. Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 31 October 1944 were: (23) F6F-5 and (1) F6F-5P. Source located here (http://www.history.navy.mil/a-record/ww-ii/loc-ac/loc-ac.htm). According to other aircraft assignment records located on this site, no USN squadron flew the F6F-5P in squadron strength. There were, as alluded to previously, several VFN's and VMFN's that flew the F6F-5N in squadron strength.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Radar dome... Note that twice as many F6F-5Ns saw combat service as P-61s...
The Hellcat was far and away the most numerous and successful US night fighter in WWII.
My regards,
Widewing
Thank you Widewing sir.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
VF-84 was flying F4U-1D's in February 1945. They did have a handful of F6F5-N's and F6F5-P's as per normal Navy/Marine Corps aircraft distribution for VF and VMF squadrons. Aircraft assigned to VF-84 were: (26) F4U-1D, (6) F6F-5P, (4) F6F-5N. VOF-1 was flying normal F6F-5's during Operation Dragoon. They didn't receive their first F6F-5P until October 1944. Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 3 October 1944 were: (20) F6F-5. Aircraft assigned to VOF-1 on 31 October 1944 were: (23) F6F-5 and (1) F6F-5P. Source located here (http://www.history.navy.mil/a-record/ww-ii/loc-ac/loc-ac.htm). According to other aircraft assignment records located on this site, no USN squadron flew the F6F-5P in squadron strength. There were, as alluded to previously, several VFN's and VMFN's that flew the F6F-5N in squadron strength.
TY....
I've read a few sources the allude to 5P's for VOF-1 and the pic WW provided is pretty clearly a 5P...but I dont know the pics chronology. I know they never flew 5P's in the PAC (FM-2's & TBM's)...any place that would have the serial #'s etc on what birds VOF-1 had in 8/44?
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Actually, no you haven't.
There were only a few scattered Ps assigned to units. No full unit had all -Ps. If, as you suggest, you were trying to fulfull the AH criteria, it must have been in use at least at the squadron/unit/whatever level. Not scattered 3 here, 5 there.
Also, even in the photo WW showed (one I posted a long time ago in the other forum, but the link broke -- thanks WW!) even most of the -Ns had the 20mms removed. Those on the flight deck have all 50cals. Your photo, assuming it's a -P (too bad a resolution to make anything out) doesn't have any markings on the planes, nothing distinguishable. Might as well be test trials (not front line action?).
So they didn't have 20mms in 99.5% of all cases, they didn't even serve in unit strength, and they did see combat. That's pretty far short of the AH criteria (only one being met was they probably saw combat!).
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how does 12 airplanes supplied count as "squadron" or "unit" strength and roughly 300+ supplied not?
This sounds as though someone does not want a particular aircraft in the game.
Seems to me we already have some very rare aircraft tooling around now, why not allow some that definitely had numbers even if they did not fly in "squadron" strength.
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The last thing I want to see is Greebo in a cannon F6F! Can the rest of us get one but not him!!
:noid
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Originally posted by Bodhi
how does 12 airplanes supplied count as "squadron" or "unit" strength and roughly 300+ supplied not?
This sounds as though someone does not want a particular aircraft in the game.
Seems to me we already have some very rare aircraft tooling around now, why not allow some that definitely had numbers even if they did not fly in "squadron" strength.
It was a staffel. It was a single staffel all using the same plane.
Hey I didn't make the rule. HTC set that precedent long ago. The Ta152 barely counts, but it counts. Now, sketchy accounts of 2 Ta152C-0s flying alongside those 152Hs wouldn't count, same way having a squadron of 26 -5s and 3 -5Ps wouldn't count.
That's the way I see it, and I think most would agree.
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Problem is, you add a two 20mm and four .50 caliber option to the F6F and 75+% of F6F's in the MA will fly with that armament even though it represented a tiny fraction of historical F6F use.
Same goes for the quad 20mm Spits.
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No question it would need to ne either an ENY 5 or a perk ride similiar to the C hog. We actually already have the problem you mention anyway. How many people do you think fly the 2 x 20mm La-7 even though the 3 x 20mm was a very small % of total production #'s.
Everything I've ever read says the P's and N's left the factory with 2 x 20mm & 4 x .50. This may or may not be factually correct 411. I do know that both 20mm N's and P's did serve in active combat in the PAC. As mentioned normally mixed in as a part of the overall squad strength. Without doubt the N saw active daylight service in addition to it's designed role.
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Much as I would enjoy having a couple of Hizookas on my favourite ride, I don't feel it would be justifiable in the game. The planes should be modelled as near to the way they were usually flown in the war as is possible. This is also why I feel the 3 cannon La-7 shouldn't be in the game, or should at least be perked.
As others have said the only F6Fs to regularly use cannons in WW2 were the nightfighters and they had a heavy radar and a draggy radome on the wing. Any cannon equipped Hellcat should have the same radar fit. You could say the Me110G should have radar too, but that was flown as a day fighter in RL without the radar.
BTW the Fleet Air Arm's Hellcats and Corsairs all had the six .50s. The FAA bought some F6F-5N nightfighters but the war ended before they were deployed.
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Originally posted by Krusty
It was a staffel. It was a single staffel all using the same plane.
Hey I didn't make the rule. HTC set that precedent long ago. The Ta152 barely counts, but it counts. Now, sketchy accounts of 2 Ta152C-0s flying alongside those 152Hs wouldn't count, same way having a squadron of 26 -5s and 3 -5Ps wouldn't count.
That's the way I see it, and I think most would agree.
I do not believe that HTC ever set a rule regarding the inclusion of an aircraft. I think it is based more on their desire to see a particular aircraft modeled, and lately, the vote of the people.
As for the "staffel", my bet is that they never flew 12 aircraft at once, or if they did it was rare.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I do not believe that HTC ever set a rule regarding the inclusion of an aircraft.
My guess is that if Mr. HiTech wants, Mr. HiTech gets... See RV As an example, doubt there was a staffel of those :D
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As far as I know the only requirements HTC has mentioned are that the plane must have seen service within the time frame of WWII and have seen combat with enemy planes. If anyone can prove beyond reasonable doubt that these Hellcats did that, then they can be added to the plane set. Simple as that.
Any arguments that it would be an unhistorical weapon loadout because of its scarcity are irrelevant. Planes and perk costs are not decided by historical factors, only by game-balancing factors. The Main Arenas are NOT recreations of WWII, but arbitrary game-worlds where we "fight" with simulated WWII war machines.
THAT's why we have the Ta 152, C-Hog, 3-gun Lala, Me 163 and the other rare birds. And THAT's why the C-Hog is perked and the 3-gun Lala is not. The unperked C-Hog usage was unbalancing to the game, the Lala simply isn't.
In the upcoming CT the rules will of course be different. Perhaps these rare birds and loadouts will be available as character "upgrades", but certainly not available to all.
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Originally posted by humble
...any place that would have the serial #'s etc on what birds VOF-1 had in 8/44?
That website doesn't provide BuNo's for the aircraft. What it does provide is a weekly summary from the beginning of the war until September '45, of all aircraft in the Navy/Marine inventory, which unit was assigned to each CV or MCAS/NAS, and a by-type listing of all aircraft assigned to each squadron and the location of those aircraft.
For example, if you wanted to know how many of all types of aircraft were assigned to VMFN-533 in April of 1945, it will list all of their aircraft type and the location of those aircraft. If you want to know when the F7F or F8F arrived in theater, it will show you. If you want to know what observation squadron was assigned to the USS Washington in 1942, it will show you.
You can tell, for those squadrons deployed aboard ship, how many of a type they had aboard ship, and how many they left behind at Ewa.
As such, it is an invaluable reference on its own, and the Navy deserves kudos for providing such a resource to the public.
I think you'll find that the listing of aircraft is detailed enough that listing BuNo's isn't necessary, unless you're actually looking for the location of a specific aircraft BuNo which it does not provide.
Anyone interested in checking the aircraft mix of specific ships and squadrons on specific days (which could be correlated to specific battles) can find that information there.
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Originally posted by Furball
My guess is that if Mr. HiTech wants, Mr. HiTech gets... See RV As an example, doubt there was a staffel of those :D
Didn't you read when it was "released"?
The RV8 is a tool, not a plane. It was so HT could take off in the real thing, take off in the virtual thing, and compare how close they were. It's one reason this FM is better than AW and WB and IL2 and all those other games -- real world comparison.
He only beefed up the 3D model and "released" it for the con.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Didn't you read when it was "released"?
The RV8 is a tool, not a plane. It was so HT could take off in the real thing, take off in the virtual thing, and compare how close they were. It's one reason this FM is better than AW and WB and IL2 and all those other games -- real world comparison.
He only beefed up the 3D model and "released" it for the con.
I was joking. But thanks for the info anyway.
(Sounds like an excuse to me rather than a tool ;))