Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Stoney74 on January 05, 2008, 07:36:01 PM
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For any questions, please...
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Wasn't the Yak-9U a mid to late late 1944 plane? This would be several months after the intended timeframe of this FSO. I know the Russian planeset has massive holes in it, but if the 9U is being used on the Russian side then perhaps the 109g-14 should be used instead of the g-6 for the Germans to even things out.
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Agreed! G-6 is no match Stoney. You really need to look at this, especially in the light of the way the last european based operation turned out.
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Well, the 190F8 is a bit early for this time period as well. I thought it'd be a better trade than the G-14.
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The precursor to the F-8 was the F-3, and it was basically a modification of the 190A-5. It didn't have as much weaponry options as the F-8.
You could just put the 190a5 in AS the F-3, using the centerline bomb (as was used historically) for the main armament. Then there's no need for the 9U.
The yak9U is a helluva lot more combat effective than the 190f-8, IMO. Being a generation 1 plane it has little quirks that make me question whether it should fly like it does. Anyways, it's blazing fast, once you dive it will hold its speed forever (FM bug?) and it'll just about out-turn the LW planes. If it had WEP it'd be perked!
EDIT: I wish we had so many more soviet planes!!! :furious Would make this SO much easier!
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What about either using A5s with bombs instead of F8s (like Krusty said), or not allowing the F8s to use the rockets and only bombs?
The Yak-9U really doesn't have a place in this FSO unless you give the other side a plane that can compete. Another option is leaving out the second Yak and giving the Russians some Hurricane IICs or Spit 5s (they had both of these a/c I believe).
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Why not swap the 9U with one of the Lend-Lease birds? Hurricane, P-40, etc.?
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Originally posted by Krusty
The yak9U is a helluva lot more combat effective than the 190f-8
The inclusion of the F8 was not meant to counter the 9U. It was meant to provide the German side with a tactical fighter, much as the 9T is included for the same reason. Both sides have two fighters to choose from, a tactical fighter, and an attack plane. The Soviet planeset has its own weaknesses, which I will not go into here. Regardless, the planeset will remain at 4 aircraft per side. The 9U is still in, and the G14 is not. None of the lend-lease birds are credible/competitive aircraft. If it screws up the balance of this FSO, I can adjust after Frame 1.
I respect your opinions, and always enjoy flying with you guys. I'm sorry you're not happy with the 9U, but that's the way its gonna be given the resources we have to work with.
And here I thought the GV stuff would be what generated all the fan mail
:D
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EA worth 10 pts? Is that a typo?
Why the 20k alt limitation?
AH events site still has okinawa up.
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All this hype over a plane that runs out of gas as soon as it gets off the runway... yeesh :p
No, to the G-14 (Yes I am flying LW side) Go center line egg like Krusty and others say on the F3 and use the A8 in a tactical role.
Oh yeah... are there only going to be two frames this month? (18th and 25th Jan) ??? :O
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A couple of questions:
The side that achieves supremacy on the ground in each EA shall be awarded victory points
How will this be determined? If all the GVs in the area are wiped out due to close air cover and/or GV to GV kills, is it a draw? 5 pts each side?
Air-to-Air Kills will comprise a total potential of 60 points
So is this to say that the Air to Ground kills will only impact the 10 pts possible for each EA?
(total aircraft shot down / total aircraft launched)*60.
Total aircraft shot down is equivalent to the number of aircraft my side launched, but that did not land successfully, correct? Or is it the number of enemy planes I 'kill" or get a proxy on? To further develop this, if my side launches 100 planes and 10 land successfully, 50 are scored killed, and 20 ditched and 20 captured, the formula would be 90/100*60, correct? And this would be the score my opponent gets. Or would it be 50/100*60?
As kills of the enemy and deaths of my sides planes usually do not equal out since bails, captures, ditches count towards enemy kill counts, but not deaths on my side.
Now onto planes:
1. every German plane is capable of carrying ordinance (at least one 250kg bomb or better per plane) and only the la5 (100kg bomb) and the il2 are capable on the Russian side. If this is a GV hunt, then the germans are way ahead in capability to execute a ground assualt using their planes.
2. With a 1.5 fuel burn, the 3 russian fighters will have very short legs. To last the full 2 hours, I'm estimating at least 2 refuels versus at most 1 for the axis birds.
3. In the air, I do see how the yak 9u and la5 can be considered better at low alt, but doesn't the axis iron shine at the higher altitudes? Granted this scenario has the participants fighting low altitude.
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Originally posted by forHIM
3. In the air, I do see how the yak 9u and la5 can be considered better at low alt, but doesn't the axis iron shine at the higher altitudes? Granted this scenario has the participants fighting low altitude.
Yak9U, La-5, 109g6, 190a5 comparison.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=yak9u&p2=la5fn&p3=109g6&p4=190a5
EDIT: You've got a good point here:
Originally posted by forHIM
1. every German plane is capable of carrying ordinance (at least one 250kg bomb or better per plane) and only the la5 (100kg bomb) and the il2 are capable on the Russian side. If this is a GV hunt, then the germans are way ahead in capability to execute a ground assualt using their planes.
While the IL2 can disable/kill many planes (each 100kg can kill a panzer by itself, the IL2 can carry 6 of them, plus the cannons alone), you are right about the ord capability. You could suggest that the 110C-4 be added as a Pe-2 stand-in, perhaps? The 110C carries 2x 500lb bombs (or is that 2x 1000lb bombs??) and could be quite potent.
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Krusty,
Thanks for the link. I'm just playing a little devils advocate here. If I'm the German CiC, I would put in my orders to go after every il2 I see. That would neutralize the benefits of the russian tank killer since it is weak in the air (slow, lumbering plane) versus high lethality 20 and 30mm axis cannons. Where as the german's have the capability to up every plane with a bomb, so as a russian cic, I can't really strategically target 1 plane and reduce the effectiveness of my opponents GV attack. You could argue that the 110-G2 is/will be the primary attack plane for the Axis and that it would be the one the russian cic targets. But what could a large squad of 109G6's with 1 bomb due to an entire 15 gv force? I know that the Mongrels (who will up between 23 and 29 fighters) could wipe out the entire GV force by ourselves with the G6, (assuming we could hit squat) as it only take 1 bomb to kill a tank and we'd effectively have 2 bombs for every enemy tank on the field.
And I'm not trying to beat this one into the ground, I look forward to this plane set. The yak's are the planes I love flying so I look forward to being on the allied side. But if we're given Axis planes than I'll relish killing those pesky little buggers :)
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I just can't understand this one Stoney. Why do the allies always get an advantage in the plane set, when we have European theatre set ups? Never fails. No one posting here suggests the Yak 9 U should be in the set up, yet it is staying?
JG11 may sit this one out. No interest in yet another axis slaughter. We went from months of events so close we were calling them "ties", to the last two being the most one sided affairs yet.
It's bad enough the Axis have outdated tanks to face off against the T34 with. Substuitute Tigers for the absent Panther then, same logic. Panther was the main battle tank of the German Army.
To say, "I'll look at it after frame 1 is the wrong approach in my opinion." To me this is yet another operation designed for an allied victory. We really need someone with some Axis "interest" in the "powers that be" group, really.
What a bummer to have this kind of set up after the break.
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Originally posted by Odee
All this hype over a plane that runs out of gas as soon as it gets off the runway... yeesh :p
No, to the G-14 (Yes I am flying LW side) Go center line egg like Krusty and others say on the F3 and use the A8 in a tactical role.
Oh yeah... are there only going to be two frames this month? (18th and 25th Jan) ??? :O
A8? Where do you see the A8 listed? Give the axis the A8 and this discussion is over with for me. At least Axis will have something with alittle speed that way.
EDIT: One other consideration. The FW190F-8 is not, nor was ever considered a "tactical fighter". It is a dedicated and heavily armoured, "Attack plane", which leaves the axis in a hole...
Out gunned and armoured on the ground.
Out gunned and (AH modeled) in the Attack role.
Out gunned and out classed in the fighter role...
Sounds fun.
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Mabey limit the number of 9Us available per frame?
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Originally posted by Husky01
Mabey limit the number of 9Us available per frame?
or something.
Now most know I am a firm believer in the "it's the pilot, not the plane" approach to "life", and I know some guys who can strap on a G-6 and pwn Yaks all day long...but sadly, I am not one of them.
FSO brings many of the best players in AH together most fridays for the best 2 hours of fun in the game. Guys in here are good. Damn good in many cases. For me that is all the more reason to have as flat a field as possible to play on. I don't give a hoot about GV's in FSO. It's not what me, nor my friends signed up for. It's fine now and again, but coming off the holiday break, and coupled with IMO, a bad set up, it's a let down. No biggie.
Match-ups like this one are status quo for us in the MA, and we do pretty good and have some fun with it, but look to FSO for something more realistic I guess. Thread was opened and discussion asked for. As a CO and active supporter of, and recruiter for FSO, I am, IMO fulfilling obligations to others by joining in the discussion. La5's and Yak9-U's against 109G-6 and FW190A-5 in the context of quality of flyers in FSO is well,...fubar.
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Originally posted by Stampf
A8? Where do you see the A8 listed? Give the axis the A8 and this discussion is over with for me. At least Axis will have something with alittle speed that way.
Actually the A-5 is faster than the A-8 at all alts but about 1k. :D
Doesn't seem as bad as you point out, Stampf. It's not exactly right, but it's not the end of the world. Also, panzers are more than a match for the T-34. Most times I run across one in my T-34 it kills me all too easily.
Overall the matchup isn't too bad, it's just the Yak9U, which has a 30mph+ speed advantage over all planes but the LA5 (only a 20mph advantage), and turns just as well as the 109g6. Compare the Yak9T with the Yak9U and it's a big difference. It's like an P40B vs a P40E.
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:huh :rofl :huh :rolleyes: :cry :aok
You're reaching my friend, but I luv ya and thank you for the giggles :D
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OMG I just saw something Krusty, I missed while rolling on the floor.
What A5 and A8 are you flying??
Wanna race?
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Well, an exaggeration I admit, but check the speed charts. A-5 is much faster than A-8 without WEP and even with WEP is faster than, or equal to, the A-8 at most alts save for the low "on the deck" (0-3k ish?) area.
EDIT: And that's the 2-gun options, I believe. You load MG151/20s or MK108s and the A8 becomes more of a pig than normally! :)
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LOL! I was waiting for your reply bro. I don't have to tell you to come out of the speed charts and back to the world of AHII flight simulations. :aok
You know damn well where the fight ends up, as well as the other advantages the 8 has over the 5 in this type of set up especially. ;)
Anyway, way off topic, as I am sure odee just made a typo when bringing the A8 into convo.
"La5's and Yak9-U's against 109G-6 and FW190A-5 in the context of quality of flyers in FSO is well,...fubar".
That's the bottom line with the "fighter" part of operation. Ground and attack have issues too, but controlling the air, is the key to success, so the rest is just academic.
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I think its a great idea stoney and a good setup. I do have a couple of questions however on how it'll play out. We have a 45 min "GV" segment and then a 45 min "air only" segment...hope I have that right.
So initially we have a need for both ground attack and fighters. Which raises 2 questions in my mind...
1) when a GVer is killed does he wait till 45 min are up or can he launch sooner.
2) After 45 min there are no ground targets so do any remaining attack planes just land or can they respawn to fighters like there GV countrymen.
The playability of the mechanics are really my only concern...you can have a guy who flies an attack plane well either forced to sit out since he has no targets or be cannon fodder...meanwhile the GVers are upping fighters vs the other GVers and the leftovers who only had 1 life to start.
My other question in on plane set....
The russian planeset is admitedly inadequate however your missing a couple of lendlease planes that would fit. The A-20G in particular was designed exaclty for the role in question. It was used in exactly the manner your suggesting in the battle of the bulge {I know the russians used it extensivly but have no 411 off thetop of my head}. Its xceptionally capable in the ground role and can hold its own suprisingly well in the air. It would be a much better and more balanced alternative to the 9U.
If we look at the 109/la-5 and 9T/A5 matchups they almost exactly flipflop.
The A-20 and IL-2 have (IMO) an edge vs GV's while the F8 and 110 have an air to air edge (that will be variable based on the IL-2/A-20 pilot capabilities). So the "2 on 2" airwar will be almost a dead heat and the "2 on 2" GV attack "war" will have a great match up of GV ability vs air to air ability...meanwhile the A-20 can help cover the IL-2s once they expend there ords...
As noted above once the IL-2s are focused on the russians have no real air to ground capability and the IL's cant really engage the F8's or 110's (trust me the A-20 can to a degree). The 9T has no ords and the 37mm really isnt a good tank killer compared to the gun/bomb/rocket packages of the german birds...
The A-20 has a great russian skin done by Greebo and was used in exactly the role you envision...it was a ground attack plane for armored colume interdiction and the russians used it extensively in that role...its really the perfect role for it in an FSO.
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Originally posted by Stampf
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To me this is yet another operation designed for an allied victory
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Well, if play balance is truly the goal, why not play this one from each side, then?
Run frames One and Two, then require all the squads to switch sides: Axis squads become Allied, Allied squads become Axis. Then run frames Three and Four with all the players flying IN the planes that they fought AGAINST in the first two frames?
IMHO, this side-switch is a bad idea only if play balance is not the goal.
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I probably would not participate in a side switch event, especially one "framed" around a "prove a point" origin. No interest here in flying the red star planes, nor proving any points. We will just have to endeavor to persevere...as the saying goes.
Nice to see ya Bino.
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Originally posted by TUXC
Wasn't the Yak-9U a mid to late late 1944 plane? This would be several months after the intended timeframe of this FSO. I know the Russian planeset has massive holes in it, but if the 9U is being used on the Russian side then perhaps the 109g-14 should be used instead of the g-6 for the Germans to even things out.
a yak would outrun about all the german planes ecept for the 109-k4 the g 14 does beat it on the deck at speed but cant match turning
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We have the Yak9T, why not use that? Theres no point in using the 9U unless you WANT the VVS to have an unfair advantage. Even though the 9T may be a BIT late (edit: NVM, the 9T would have been around in this time period), it is definately not to the extent of the 9U, and is a much more appropriate match for the Luftwaffe in this FSO.
If you REALLY want to have the 9U, you could at least give the Luftwaffe the choice to drop a few guns from the 109G6 for the performance of the G2.
The 9U literally out-everythings the 109G6, but, looking at the charts, the 109G6 and the 9T are almost equal (except in climb, but a 109 SHOULD be able to out-climb its competition :aok )
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Originally posted by Motherland
Theres no point in using the 9U unless you WANT the Luftwaffe to have an unfair advantage.
Typo?
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I meant the VVS, :rofl
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Originally posted by Motherland
We have the Yak9T, why not use that?
The Yak9T is being used.
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Originally posted by trax1
The Yak9T is being used.
In place of the 9U I meant. Not as a complement.
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Originally posted by forHIM
A couple of questions:
How will this be determined? If all the GVs in the area are wiped out due to close air cover and/or GV to GV kills, is it a draw? 5 pts each side?
Ok, from the orders, I will determine which squads are assigned to each EA. From the event logs, I will determine the kills for both sides and then determine the winner of that EA. The winner of that EA receives 10 points. There will be no partial credit, unless there is an exact tie, and then a draw will be declared for that EA. In that case, both sides will be awarded 5 points each.
So is this to say that the Air to Ground kills will only impact the 10 pts possible for each EA?[/b]
Yes. The close air support is intended to be a manner through which a side can impact the decision in the EA's. So, the more effective the close air support is, the more of a combat multiplier it is for the friendly GV's on the ground.
Total aircraft shot down is equivalent to the number of aircraft my side launched, but that did not land successfully, correct? Or is it the number of enemy planes I 'kill" or get a proxy on? To further develop this, if my side launches 100 planes and 10 land successfully, 50 are scored killed, and 20 ditched and 20 captured, the formula would be 90/100*60, correct? And this would be the score my opponent gets. Or would it be 50/100*60?
As kills of the enemy and deaths of my sides planes usually do not equal out since bails, captures, ditches count towards enemy kill counts, but not deaths on my side.[/b]
An air-to-air kill will be credited exactly as it is during a typical FSO--everything but a "ditched" or "landed successfully". I will determine the total number of kills (from the logs) and the total number of aircraft that launch (both at the beginning of the frame and at the T+45 mark). Kills divided by total number launched = %. That % will be multiplied by 60 to determine the total number of air-to-air points awarded.
An example:
The Soviets launch a total of 200 aircraft during the frame. Total Soviets killed = 100 (meaning 100 either ditched or landed). So, the Germans would score 100/200*60, or 30 points. While the potential score is 60, it will be very rare for either side to score 60. So, you can see that the EA victories are going to be very (but not more) important to the overall score.
Now onto planes:
1. every German plane is capable of carrying ordinance (at least one 250kg bomb or better per plane) and only the la5 (100kg bomb) and the il2 are capable on the Russian side. If this is a GV hunt, then the germans are way ahead in capability to execute a ground assualt using their planes.[/b]
The YAK-9T has some soft vehicle capability, but otherwise, you're correct. Done purposefully.
2. With a 1.5 fuel burn, the 3 russian fighters will have very short legs. To last the full 2 hours, I'm estimating at least 2 refuels versus at most 1 for the axis birds.[/b]
I actually considered a 2.0 for balance purposes. But, yes, they will have short legs, and that is also on purpose.
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Originally posted by Stampf
I just can't understand this one Stoney. Why do the allies always get an advantage in the plane set, when we have European theatre set ups? Never fails. No one posting here suggests the Yak 9 U should be in the set up, yet it is staying?
Tell you what, I will entertain a list from you to me, via PM or email, broken down by year from 1939 to 1945 that uses (1)the aircraft available to both the Germans and Allies for each year and (2) the aircraft in AH2 available to me as an Admin. You tell me what which aircraft during each year is a balanced match up. Fair enough? Perhaps no one else suggests that the Yak-9U should be in the setup...but its staying because, as the Admin, I believe it needs to be here. Its my decision, and if its a bad one, I'll man up and admit it.
JG11 may sit this one out. No interest in yet another axis slaughter. We went from months of events so close we were calling them "ties", to the last two being the most one sided affairs yet.[/b]
Personally, I would be disappointed if you did--I like flying with you guys. FSO is and has been a success because of squads like yours. Regardless, if you do choose to sit out, make sure you update your squad information on http://www.AHEvents.org
It's bad enough the Axis have outdated tanks to face off against the T34 with. Substuitute Tigers for the absent Panther then, same logic. Panther was the main battle tank of the German Army.[/b]
I've already received comments from others stating that the T-34 is outclassed by the Panzer IV.
To me this is yet another operation designed for an allied victory. We really need someone with some Axis "interest" in the "powers that be" group, really.[/b]
Obviously I disagree with you. My only interest is in providing a fun event for you guys. Don't forget, I fly them as well as design 'em. And my squad flies Axis every other frame.
What a bummer to have this kind of set up after the break. [/B]
Again, sorry you feel that way. After 15 hours of my personal time to admin an event, I'd hoped I'd do better.
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Stoney I think the combined arms approach is a good one to try...
Didnt see a comment on the A-20 (no formations) vs the 9u from you yet. I understand its a major change but I honestly think its a potentially good (and historically correct) plane. The 9T as a ground attack plane is very limited and only 1 russian bird would have ords vs all 4 german birds (potentially){unless la-5s carry bombs}. The russians operated more A-20G's then any other nation and used the plane extensively during the timeframe in question.
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the yak9t can take out panzers with like 5 hits from the 37mm
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Originally posted by humble
I think its a great idea stoney and a good setup. I do have a couple of questions however on how it'll play out. We have a 45 min "GV" segment and then a 45 min "air only" segment...hope I have that right.
I think you meant 45min GV segment and a 1 hour 15 min "air only" segment. There will be air for all 2 hours though.
1) when a GVer is killed does he wait till 45 min are up or can he launch sooner.[/b]
GV'ers all launch at T+45. I figured that the ground fight would take 10 mins or so to develop. So, perhaps the GV players spend 15-30 mins in the tower waiting to take off if they get killed earlier in the GV fight. This was the only way I could determine to make the mechanics of including GV's work. I realize that a 30 minute seat in the tower may not be someone's idea of a fun event, but as this is a fairly different way to set up an event, we're breaking some new ground here. If it doesn't work out, so be it. I'll not make the same mistakes twice.
2) After 45 min there are no ground targets so do any remaining attack planes just land or can they respawn to fighters like there GV countrymen.
The playability of the mechanics are really my only concern...you can have a guy who flies an attack plane well either forced to sit out since he has no targets or be cannon fodder...meanwhile the GVers are upping fighters vs the other GVers and the leftovers who only had 1 life to start.[/b]
Good point, and one I hadn't thought about. My original concept was to have GV'ers stay in GV's for the duration of the FSO. Ultimately I changed my mind and did not think about the attack pilots. I'll get back to everyone in a day or two and update the setup accordingly.
My other question in on plane set....
The russian planeset is admitedly inadequate however your missing a couple of lendlease planes that would fit...If we look at the 109/la-5 and 9T/A5 matchups they almost exactly flipflop...IL-2 [has] (IMO) an edge vs GV's while the F8 and 110 have an air to air edge (that will be variable based on the IL-2/A-20 pilot capabilities). So the "2 on 2" airwar will be almost a dead heat and the "2 on 2" GV attack "war" will have a great match up of GV ability vs air to air ability...The A-20 has a great russian skin done by Greebo and was used in exactly the role you envision...it was a ground attack plane for armored colume interdiction and the russians used it extensively in that role...its really the perfect role for it in an FSO. [/B]
When I made the previous statement about lend-lease aircraft, I was referring to the Hurri II and Spit V as they were suggested as subs for the Yak-9U. I was not talking about the A-20, but I did originally consider the A-20. I'm fairly confident that based on all the strengths and weaknesses of each aircraft in the planeset counteract each other to some degree given the entire setup. I could be wrong, but I guess we'll know after next Friday.
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Just because one side may have a "superior" plane set does not always result in a win "Look at DGS for instance the 190 A8 where extremely out match but every thing worked out for the best in the end).
Out comes of FSO are largely based on the frame CiCs planning and leader ship ability along with the squads them self. Obviously there are large gaps in the plane sets for both sides but until HTC fills the plane set there is nothing that can be done about it.
Few other points.
I believe that due to the Yaks short legs during the frame you will start to see a large swing in air superiority and momentum from Allies to Axis. Short legs not only effect how long you fly but how you fly. Due to the short legs the yaks will not be able to climb as high, stay in the fight as long, and maintain air superiority. When the yaks are forced to rearm this will cause many things the major one being, that by rearming you have to take your planes out of the air it more often then not causes confusion. Squads get split up people bend props rip off wings etc. The key to air superiority is being in the air and due to the yaks short legs I believe it will be very difficult to do this obviously this is something the allies will have to plan around.
Substituting the Tiger in for the missing panzer at the time would completely unbalance the ground game. The panzer in game is perfectly capable of killing a T34 with no problems. IMO the GV set is pretty balanced.
Stampf I would honestly hate to see you guys sit out. JG11 is a great addition to which ever side they are on. If you do not decide to fly in this one, all of you guys that are welcome to fly with AoM if we get to be Axis.
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Originally posted by Stampf
I probably would not participate in a side switch event, especially one "framed" around a "prove a point" origin. No interest here in flying the red star planes, nor proving any points. We will just have to endeavor to persevere...as the saying goes.
Nice to see ya Bino.
Sir, as always, I'll fly as I'm ordered to, sir!
;)
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Good news Bino.
Well we can't pass on the opportunity to fly the nicest skin in the game, the JG11 G-6.
(http://www.freewebs.com/ahjg11/109g6_jg11_1.jpg)
Stoney, never did dismissing the effort put into the Operation, enter my intentions and appologize if that residue of this text medium settled on you. That was not in my thoughts. We'll be there, and glad to be.
Up the Irons.
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Interesting discussion so far.
I'd like to remind everyone that may be viewing this who does not know the full depth of the contributing posters that we are all Pro's here.
Even though there is a discussion about the desire or disgust of a certain plane or planes available, the FSO group that has evolved is clearly capable of handling any and all conditions that they may be faced with.
As any scout or patrol group that flew a mission was well aware of, there were no certainties when it came to what might be found. They may have ran into a group that demanded they high tail it for home, they might have had an advantage, they might have been the underdog but maybe, just maybe, they could turn the tables.
The only thing relevant was preparation. This were a time when you expected the worst and hoped for the best, and were never surprised. You could and would deal with whatever was thrust upon you.
Now, I know the discussion here is based on a CM who wants to engage the players, and the players want to get the best they can out of this event. But we all know, at the end of the day, that no matter what the battle conditions end up being, you will all remember the theme I've sworn by, and shown, time after time.
It ain't the planes guys. You know this.
You design an event with 3 squadrons of Yaks against the entire US, and you know I'll be in, and have a blast with, those Yaks. I also know a great many of you in this discussion would be in the Yaks with me :) Just remember what we are all trying to do here. Nothings fair, every battle had a winner and loser, historically it's irrelevant. What can You do with the resources given, is there really no strategy that can overcome a perceived imbalance?
Is it Really the plane? I wonder, how much time spent debating plane sets might be used on researching how to overcome the other side.
Well, that's just me sticking my nose in :) Carry on.
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I dont think any comments on either thread are ment to be derogatory. I think the concept is great and obviously alot of work is involved. The limitations of the soviet plane set create obvious gaps. My only ongoing point of concern is the significant imbalance in "ground attack capability" inherent in the russian plane set. Both the 110 and F8 will make short work of the IL-2's IMO. I'd venture to say that IL-2 survivabilty will be zilch
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ROC, unit v. unit warfare doesn't ultimately come down to pilot skill alone. Even 1v1 the plane plays a big part.
I dislike when folks say "it's the pilot not the plane" and I'm not exactly saying the opposite. I'm saying whatever the pilot brings, the plane can bring even more or take some away.
There have been some FSO missions where one side gets totally slaughtered by the side with a better plane. It COULD have gone the other way, but frankly, when one side has a plane 30mph+ faster than the other, climbs better than or just as good as, turns tighter than, and zooms far better than the other size, it doesn't matter if you've got the average bottom-skilled FSO unit in that super plane, it will probably do much better than if they were in the worst plane in the set.
So, basically what I'm saying is the pilot plays a big role. Less so in unit v. unit, where teamwork and chance play a big part. However, the plane you GIVE that unit, and the planes you come up against, really do have an impact on the outcome.
Send F4Fs against Ki84s. F4Fs might get some kills, sure, but in general it will be a slaughter-fest for the Kis. Even if there are hot-shot pilots in that lesser-planed squad, they only need to be ganged or overwhelmed, or just to be caught looking the wrong way and all of a sudden the "hotshot" is in the tower, and as the sortie drags on it gets worse, less and less of the "lesser" unit to help cover itself, more and more numbers of enemies against them.
It's all academic, and I think the discussion has been fairly civil about the matter, but the yak's gonna own this one is my bet
:aok
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Originally posted by ROC
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every battle had a winner and loser, historically it's irrelevant. What can You do with the resources given, is there really no strategy that can overcome a perceived imbalance?
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Good post, sir, but I have to ask this about scenario design:
What is the objective of the scenario design? Does the design simply try to model an "historically accurate" rout? Or does each side have an even chance to "win", as defined in the scenario?
For example, let's say you choose to model the famous "Marianas Turkey Shoot". Do you set up point values and/or victory conditions in the scenario so the players will likely achieve a "draw"? Or do you leave all the victory point values and victory conditions "even", and so reward a huge mob of Corsairs for feasting on the outnumbered Vals?
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What is the objective of the scenario design? Does the design simply try to model an "historically accurate" rout? Or does each side have an even chance to "win", as defined in the scenario?
For example, let's say you choose to model the famous "Marianas Turkey Shoot". Do you set up point values and/or victory conditions in the scenario so the players will likely achieve a "draw"? Or do you leave all the victory point values and victory conditions "even", and so reward a huge mob of Corsairs for feasting on the outnumbered Vals?
Hi Bino. By “scenario” I am assuming you mean Squad Operations design, because there is a significant difference between a Scenario design and a Squad Operations design.
In FSO we would never setup a Marianas Turkey Shoot because it would be fun for one side and not much fun for another. In FSO the Admin CM’s (the guys that design the event) aim for historical game play, but not at the sacrifice of the fun factor. It is important that both Allied and Axis sides have a reasonable chance of winning the tour. For the average player winning the tour is not a priority, but simply engaging the enemy with his squadies and having some success. Success for the average player might be an assist or two, maybe a kill, or even just landing at the end of the frame with most of his squadies. The points and victory conditions we use in FSO are there just to give structure toward the end result which is a victory for the Allied or Axis side. If we did not have an ultimate goal (achieving victory by points or objectives met) then FSO would be nothing more than the MA with historical match up’s.
Could we design an FSO in the Pacific that was at the time period of the Marianas Turkey Shoot? You bet, but we would add more fighters (less Val’s and Kate’s) to the IJN side so both sides could have a chance of winning the tour. Both sides would have fun and both sides would enjoy some historical match up’s in the Pacific.
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I greatly appreciate the somewhat "out of the box" thinking on this one. I'd venture that the vast majority of fighting in the east was exactly this type of "mutual ground interdiction" over a fluid front which is what kept the air war so low. Obviously this will be a learning experience for all involved (although I think its not the 1st "combined arms" FSO or am I wrong on that).
Not knowing what restrictions (if any) the axis will have on ords I do think the allies might be at a serious disadvantage in that regard while the allies will have a significant edge in the "tactical air to air" with the 9T being a good match for the F8 under 10k. As already stated by stoney only time will tell...
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The Allied will be the Germans right?
I updated our red preference to either theFW190F8 or Bf110G2
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Axis = Germans
Allied = Russians
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Originally posted by RATTFINK
The Allied will be the Germans right?
I updated our red preference to either theFW190F8 or Bf110G2
Geebus Rat! Questions like that make me want to slap the school tax collector.:p
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18th...maybe we should have ordered take-out...
(http://www.freewebs.com/ahjg11/10908sn2.JPG)
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Axis = Germans
Allied = Russians
thx
Just wondering cause in the FSO Description, it states "Allied vs Axis" not the other way around :aok
How come we don’t include who is allied & axis in the "Setup" (http://ahevents.org/european-theatre/breaking-the-siege.html)? A good place to put it would be in any of these subjects 'Side Assignments:', 'Special Information:', or 'Field Order:'
One more observation of how the "Setup" could be better, would be to add the dates that the FSO will take place. I know you can look for the dates on the calendar & the AHII BBS, but in the out-line of the event/setup would be nice.
(http://mazeguy.net/symbolic/twocents.gif)
<>
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Originally posted by daddog
Hi Bino. By “scenario” I am assuming you mean Squad Operations design, because there is a significant difference between a Scenario design and a Squad Operations design.
In FSO we would never setup a Marianas Turkey Shoot because it would be fun for one side and not much fun for another. In FSO the Admin CM’s (the guys that design the event) aim for historical game play, but not at the sacrifice of the fun factor. It is important that both Allied and Axis sides have a reasonable chance of winning the tour. For the average player winning the tour is not a priority, but simply engaging the enemy with his squaddie and having some success. Success for the average player might be an assist or two, maybe a kill, or even just landing at the end of the frame with most of his squadies. The points and victory conditions we use in FSO are there just to give structure toward the end result which is a victory for the Allied or Axis side. If we did not have an ultimate goal (achieving victory by points or objectives met) then FSO would be nothing more than the MA with historical match up’s.
Could we design an FSO in the Pacific that was at the time period of the Marianas Turkey Shoot? You bet, but we would add more fighters (less Val’s and Kate’s) to the IJN side so both sides could have a chance of winning the tour. Both sides would have fun and both sides would enjoy some historical match up’s in the Pacific.
Exactly, in the end the above is the "mission" of FSO.
Does that mean that both sides will always be perfectly equal? No, but it does mean that we will never intentionally have a totally lopsided event.
In this event, both the Allies (Russians) and the Axis (Germans), have some advantages and disadvantages to work around. It is up to the CiC's and the squad CO's, to play into their advantages while taking advantage of the other sides disadvantage.
Does that make sense? :)
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Originally posted by RATTFINK
thx
Just wondering cause in the FSO Description, it states "Allied vs Axis" not the other way around :aok
How come we don’t include who is allied & axis in the "Setup" (http://ahevents.org/european-theatre/breaking-the-siege.html)? A good place to put it would be in any of these subjects 'Side Assignments:', 'Special Information:', or 'Field Order:'
Hmm, I guess we have always assumed that everyone knew who was "Allied" and "Axis" in WWII. Obviously an incorrect assumption. Easily corrected.
One more observation of how the "Setup" could be better, would be to add the dates that the FSO will take place. I know you can look for the dates on the calendar & the AHII BBS, but in the out-line of the event/setup would be nice.
A good suggestion. We can do that.
:)
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Sled I see your back from your vaction, hope you had a good time.
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Originally posted by SLED
Hmm, I guess we have always assumed that everyone knew who was "Allied" and "Axis" in WWII. Obviously an incorrect assumption. Easily corrected.
I kindda thought Germany would be the Axis but as I was looking into stuff on the ahevents.org site it is stated different ways. Thank you sir.
A good suggestion. We can do that.
:)
Thanks <>
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Originally posted by trax1
Sled I see your back from your vaction, hope you had a good time.
Thanks Trax,
Yes we did.
A little short, but aren't they always? :)
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The one thing I hate about vacations is I usually wish I was back at work so I can rest at the end.
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Thanks for the replies, everyone!
You confirmed what I had understood from previous posts in here: the events in FSO are intended to give each side a fighting chance. It seems that there are some different opinions on how to get to that point, in relation to the various planes and tanks. Boy, it sure would help if more planes and GVs were added to AH. Yup, it sure would.
But we all seem to have the same objective for FSO: a fun, fair fight.
*S*