Print Page - Buff Leathality Range

I am sorry but the buff guns are just TOO leathal at long ranges PERIOD. When I am getting hit at D15 something needs to be done. D15 means he see's D11 (accounting for rear lag bit). Tonight cave started hitting me at D15 and by D10 my plane was shot to pieces (F4U-1C) this I feel is rediculous, the gunnery range on buffs is JUST too long.

[This message has been edited by BigJim (edited 02-14-2000).]

Wanna know a secret? Buffs in AH do have a sort of otto... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

I'll tell you the answer.

Ready?

Leave buff gun lethality and range where it is right now.

Simply deny the gunners the zoom view.

I think that would balence it.

Regards,
Wab

Actually, its not a lag, buffs actually do hit far (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
1600 yards hits with buff gunners is not impossibility, its every day thing in AH.
You can do that into a plane ahead of you.
I have shot down a plane 1400-1500 yards ahead of my B-17.

BigJim I started shooting at 1400 yds on my FE, and that was mainly to make sure I was hitting you when you actually entered lethal range of me guns because you were flying a hawg, and I assumed it was a -1C. Those are the only birds that really worry me when I'm in a buff. Pieces of your bird dinnae start flying off on my FE until 700yds, and the approach you used had both the tail guns and upper turret firing on you.

And the netlag issue, in our situation today, when I started shooting at 1400yds on me FE, you shoulda been seeing me at about 1100yds. Netlag makes the bird on your six appear to be farther away. Conversely, a bird at your 12oc you will see closer to you than he sees (you see 1000yds, he sees 1300-1400yds)

And the guns were turned down in version 1, or the hardness of the fighters turned up, or something, but something has happened to the buff guns. Once upon a time I was damn near untouchable until I ran out of ammo. Now I'm lucky if I kill a bandit and keep flying. Any of the sharp shooters get on me and that's it, send the notice to me next of kin, because I have 0 chance of surviving, even if I take them down since the guns were fubared (and it's not my gunnery, I'm a damned fine shot in the buffs)

Quote

Originally posted by 214CaveJ:

<snip>
And the guns were turned down in version 1, or the hardness of the fighters turned up, or something, but something has happened to the buff guns. Once upon a time I was damn near untouchable until I ran out of ammo. Now I'm lucky if I kill a bandit and keep flying. Any of the sharp shooters get on me and that's it, send the notice to me next of kin, because I have 0 chance of surviving, even if I take them down since the guns were fubared (and it's not my gunnery, I'm a damned fine shot in the buffs)

BigJim;

I do not want to quote HTC, but in the past they have in content said that BUFF guns do have a tad more range than fighter guns. This is because of the range differences for six views caused be the internet, I believe.

Example:
The plane on your six shows d1.2k, but the plane is actually only d800.

Remember this always, "Objects in the Rear View Mirror, They Appear FARTHER Than They Are".

Gun effectiveness works on range from the plane doing the shooting, not vice versa. This is the purpose that BUFF guns shoot farther. Other wise a fighter could sit on a BUFF's six, just out of the BUFF's gun range and shoot without any chance of ever being hit

Example:

BUFF sees fighter on its six at d800 - BUFF guns are out of range and not effective
Fighter sees BUFF on its twelve at d550 - The fighter parks at this range and shoots down the BUFF.

As to the BUFF gunnery skill of CavemanJ, he is exceptional. I can testify to that fact. He has shot me down many many times. This is pretty much widely known about him. He is a tough opponent.

Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

Mino

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-15-2000).]

Cave and Mino
I understand the neg lag thing, this means on my 12 I read 1.5 (he sez he read 1.4) so in this case the neglag thing changed with distance cause a d15 (me) he read d14 (100yrds diff) at d10 (me) he read 700 yrds (300 yrds diff) now this report seems to fly in the face of the "compensation" HT built in??? since I was reading FARTHER on my 12 than HE was on his SIX??????

You'll have to get a film BigJim.

I am certain a film would convince the folks at HTC the validity of your discussion.

Mino

Quote

Originally posted by BigJim:

I understand the neg lag thing, this means on my 12 I read 1.5 (he sez he read 1.4) so in this case the neglag thing changed with distance cause a d15 (me) he read d14 (100yrds diff) at d10 (me) he read 700 yrds (300 yrds diff) now this report seems to fly in the face of the "compensation" HT built in??? since I was reading FARTHER on my 12 than HE was on his SIX??????

BigJim all I can say is maybe you were lagging. I've checked the typical netlag thing many times while flying in tight formation with other Crew members. In one flight I showed Redstar's Corsair tucked in on my right wing at 24yards (more like 24ft, but does it matter that close? =). According to Redstar he was in front of me, showing me to be 54yards.

I believe you lagging would account for the discrepencies. I seem to recall that after our first encounter you rounds came zinging by me 30-45 seconds after you had started falling from the sky. I also recall telling you "nice lag" or something similar.

Simple fix- cut the effective range of both fighters and buff gunners by 50%.

Yeah, and to stop people climbing so high let's cut every planes climbrate in half. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

I would prefer though, to see the "magical" aiming help for bomber guns fixed.
(http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/g_own.gif)
When you aim along the black line, in RL the bullet stream would follow the lower red line, and you would miss. But in AH the "magic aiming help" automatically puts the bullets on the upper line, compensating for the effects of the bullet stream being "blown back" and making it meet the crosshairs at convergence range.

Add in the extra guns firing when they should be hitting their own aircraft or unable to fire(mid-upper and ball turrets usually) and you get up to 6 guns shredding the fighters when they get near convergence range. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)

Juzz, are you serious? Maybe that's why my gunnery in Buffs are so pathetic, I've always compensated for forward speed, etc. when shooting at incoming A/C... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)

"In training, upon being told it was time to
solo, the instructor said, “You tried to kill
me enough times, now try it with a check pilot.”"

We don't do anything funky with the buff bullet trajectorys. They will fly like the would in real life. i.e. Under your diagramed aim point. The bullets will fall slightly behind the aim point. Btw this is not as much as you would expect from first glance. Its only due to the drag of the bullet in the direction of the fwd vel. of the plane.

HiTech

Same here, Rip, but I always manage to take a couple with me anyway.

Taking away zoom fixing any perceived problem? I never use zoom, and I can take bombers down all day long.

An unescorted bomber should be in big trouble when it meets any late-war type that frequents the arena. It is my opinion that most pilots are becoming smart enough about the weak spots of the bombers. We all simply have learned better ways to kill them. F4U-1C vs. Buff = dead Buff, if the F4U pilot has any sense at all. The only possible exception is when the Buff has a significant alt advantage.

Juzz;

You sure about that?

Anytime I have ever sighted a hunting rifle in, I always adjusted the sight to hit my target at an expected range.

The instant a bullet leaves the barrel, it begins falling. This is physics. To reach ANY target accurately, the sight must be set to compensate for this drop. You adjust the sight so that initially the bullet is aimed slightly upward. The falling trajectory of the bullet then crosses at the sighting line for the distance that is desired.

This chart is for bore sighting the P-38
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-38/38BSC.gif)

So if HTC models the upper red line on your diagram, how is this wrong?

Thanks!

Mino

juzz I'm gonna tell ya straight up: you're nuts
if it were as you describe I'd be even more lethal on my buff guns than I am currently =)

I swear it's true - shoot out 90º to the right side of a buff and observe the tracers.

What I see is the tracers appearing to the left of the sight line, then "blowing back" to cross the middle of the gunsight at a certain range from the plane, which I assume is the convergence setting. Ie: they appear to follow top red line in the diagram.

What I would expect to see is the tracers start out along the middle of the sightline, then getting "blown back" due to air resistance - thus following the bottom red line in the diagram.

Intentional or not, there's certainly something odd going on here... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

ok juzz, from which gun are you talking about?
are you firing all gun positions (primary fire) or just the station you're manning? (secondary fire). If you're firing all positions you're seeing the tracers from the guns that are closer to the front.

I can tell you from experience that you _must_ lead your targets if you expect to get hits, even if they're only 200yds away.
The only times ya dinnae have to lead the target is a straight on six or head on 12 attack. And then ya gotta lead the bandit if they veer off any from a straight line into the guns

Hmmmmmmmm! Did anyone at AH ever shoot trap and skeet or jackrabbits?

BigJim:
I thought this sounded like a complaint from a guy who does not spend much time in BUFFs. I just checked your stats and I was right. In the B-26 and B-17 you have been killed 2 times and have 1 kill.
In fighters you have killed 30 B-26's and been killed 12 times by them. Against B-17's, you have killed 16, and been killed 10 times by them (Better BUFF killing stats than I have!). The stats don't mention bails.
Speaking for those of us who spend 1/2 or more of our time in BUFFs, we think that the odds already favor the fighters plenty.
B-17's have enjoyed 1832 kills at the expense of 3269 deaths. That is not a great ratio, especially if you consider that the BUFFS spend 3 to 5 times the amount of time getting to altitude and to enemy teritory as the fighters must spend to intercept them.
B-26's have 3019 kills, at the cost of 4255 deaths, a little better than the B-17, but still, a far worse ratio than any fighter experiences.
Personally, I would like to see Gunner improvements, such as automatically switching to the next gun when it is moved to the extent of it's track. IE, track a target down from the tail and automatically switch to the ball when the gun travel hits bottom.
I would like to suggest that you spend about 1/3 of your time in BUFFs for awhile and then tell us what you think of the BUFFs leathality.
Don't forget that there must be an incentive to fly any particular plane. No one wants to just fly around and be someone's cannon fodder, which is often what BUFF driving is!
eskimo

heheh I got you thoughts the first time Eskimo. I have a friend who flies the buffs alot and he gave me the same speech so maybe I better just keep quiet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)

[This message has been edited by BigJim (edited 02-18-2000).]

Sorry about the triple post. I sent it on a computer at work that wouldn't show the reply. I couldn't figure out what was going on. Still havn't?
eskimo.

As long as the buffs are being simulated as manned by a single, or at most 2 or 3 gunners, the lethality question is mute.

Just my opinion.

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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BigJim on February 14, 2000, 11:46:00 PM