Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lusche on January 08, 2008, 09:23:04 PM
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A few statistics I have compiled for your edutainment. And yes, I have too much time at my hands, I know that, thank you. :p
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/203/usageuu1.jpg)
This is what comes closest to "usage" data: The combination of kills and deaths every plane in AH2 had over the last twelve months. EW & MW arenas after the score was split are unaccounted for. But those two arenas only have 1-5 % of all MA kills anyway.
No real surprise: On top of the list are the usual suspects. Only those players always claiming "all I see are Spixteens" could be surprised ;)
While the top 4 planes have about 25% combined, it's nice to see that all in all the plane usage is quite diverse
This is even more supported by the next figure:
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9202/fighterenynu2.jpg)
Fighter kills sorted by ENY. The twelve low-ENY planes are not dominating the arena in such a way than one could expect, neither in total kills nor in K/D. And more than one third of all kills made by fighters are achieved in ENY 20+ planes. Half of that low-ENY planes are perked though. I guess the numbers would change considerably if perks would be abandoned.
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/395/kdyo1.jpg)
One can see that the top five fighters are perked for good reason.
But one can only wonder while the Spit XIV (#23) still is. ;)
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1089/ta152sf5.jpg)
This is a small curiosity, illustrating the influence of BBS on plane usage. Mid december we had a small discussion about the TA-152 FM, resulting in a few pilots giving it a try. You can see the results. One particular player alone had 20% of all TA152 kills that month.
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3805/tankbusteraqo5.jpg)
While the Il-2 seems to be the undisputed King of the Tankbusters, the B-25H took the arenas by storm, considering it was introduced in September only. This can be seen when looking at the top 5 tankbusters only:
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/492/tankbusterbue3.jpg)
But please take note that the Il-2 has usually a K/D of 2.7 vs Panzer IV, while the B-25H has only a K/D of about 1.5.
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Interesting.
Among other things, that a Luftwaffe fighter (not 110 as I think that is mostly used for ground attack) doesn't show up until #17 in the D-9.
I wonder how it would look by usage divided according to airforces (American, British, Soviet, German, Japanese, Italian)
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:noid
Nice work Lusche :) Did you check out MiniD/AKDejaVu's past stats? Might be of some interest to you as a stat watcher..
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Originally posted by Lusche
One particular player alone had 20% of all TA152 kills that month.
Would that player be m00t by any chance?:noid
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cool charts lusche very interesting was really surprised at how many p51s are flown,thx for making
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Originally posted by kozhedub
I wonder how it would look by usage divided according to airforces (American, British, Soviet, German, Japanese, Italian)
I have made such a chart for fighters only:
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5001/fighternationswc9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5001/fighternationswc9.99cab35f84.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=529&i=fighternationswc9.jpg)
If one would include bombers too, the American share would certainly get substantially bigger, followed by the Soviet one (Il-2).
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:aok
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Interesting to see the Hurri show up just below the perk rides.
Also, it is readily apparent that the P-51 must be perked- all I see anymore are runstangs!
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Atleast these stats confirm why perked planes should be perked.
Also did you put together any GV stats?
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Originally posted by Lusche
I have made such a chart for fighters only:
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5001/fighternationswc9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5001/fighternationswc9.99cab35f84.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=529&i=fighternationswc9.jpg)
If one would include bombers too, the American share would certainly get substantially bigger, followed by the Soviet one (Il-2).
:cool:
Chart is as expected.
US/UK alone at least 60%, more with bombers as you would say since those two have the real heavy bombers.
I guess to be less part of the gang you should fly Axis and VVS planes.
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Originally posted by trax1
Also did you put together any GV stats?
Not yet... ;)
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Nice charts man.. good work
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Originally posted by Lusche
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/395/kdyo1.jpg)
TEMP is #1 only because they never come down from 30K unless they are BnZing a guy already in a fight, and zooms away at mach 2.
Neat charts :aok
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Lusche, I'd have made a graph to go with the nationality % of kills, one scaled for the relative proportions of each nationality. I probably would have made another one still with that scaled K% accounting for the ENY :D
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Great stuff Lusche...I personally love the stats, kinda gives the baseball card collector fetish feel to the game...I miss the monthly breakdown we used to get...I wish HTC would make the compilation engine more comprehensive on the stats pages so we could see more trends.
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Dam Lusche your right you have no life. Makes interesting reading though so i guess I have no life too if i find it so ;)
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Lusche, I think the time you took to do the charts was really nice of you to do, definally gave me a few ideas I was really suprised the Hurri-D didn't come up under tank busting aircraft! Left me pondering some ideas about aircraft being "overflown" thats really interesting the La7/Spit16 wasn't really overflown as I always cry on 200 lol.
Very nice Data compile
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Originally posted by Latrobe
TEMP is #1 only because they never come down from 30K unless they are BnZing a guy already in a fight, and zooms away at mach 2.
Neat charts :aok
4 Hispano Mk. V. Put 4 Hispano Mk. V. in the Me 262 and K/D x3.
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I object to Latrobe's comment not all Temp drivers are like that!
I hardly ever go over 10k in it. Main use is to gun down Bish lemmings trying to horde fields.
If they aren't already in LA7's they soon are and I kill em some more ;)
It can be easily beaten if your SA isn't up to scratch.
Bruv
~S~
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Thanks Lusche, informatative as always!
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Obviously a mistake. I've been told that all you see in the MA is LA7s and SpitTards. Fix your data and redo the graphs please :D
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Originally posted by Adonai
Lusche, I think the time you took to do the charts was really nice of you to do, definally gave me a few ideas I was really suprised the Hurri-D didn't come up under tank busting aircraft!
Oh, the Hurri D has always been a quite underestimated tank killer. It's ranked #15 with only 2.2 % of all plane kills on Panzer IV, even behind Spit XVI and P-51D. But I'd almost bet a majority of Pony kill credits results from our flawed kill credit system, where strafing tanks with .50 cals without doing any actual damage will give you the "kill".
BTW, there is a minor bug in the "Top 5 Panzer Killer" chart - I have listed one tour twice. Just disregard #7 :o
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Still an excellent job for those that enjoy reading stastics Lusche
I always read stats and compare planes and such, have my own pie graph as you Do just not as extensive, still good details showing 10-25 eny planes are pretty much equal in Kills Thats interestingly enough to know!
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Originally posted by Adonai
"overflown" thats really interesting the La7/Spit16 wasn't really overflown as I always cry on 200 lol.
Having a very short range, both planes (but especially the LA) have a disproportionaly high usage in base defense. So a player like me, doing mostly base defenses himself, will usually see much less of them than a player who spends most of his time attacking enemy fields who may indeed often see the sky infested with nothing but La's .
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Great information! Graph this again for the next tour and I bet you see the top non-perk planes jump even more in popularity. ;)
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Originally posted by dedalos
Obviously a mistake. I've been told that all you see in the MA is LA7s and SpitTards. Fix your data and redo the graphs please :D
Here ya go:
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4879/truthry8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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Originally posted by Lusche
Here ya go:
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4879/truthry8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Heh, I knew it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Perk the LALA-16s :furious :furious
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:lol
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I love it when you show the stats Lusche!!! it makes me wet... Seriously though stats are made much more interesting with graphs and charts, easier to spot trends too than just looking over raw data.
Good Work
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I'm surprised no one has complained that you put our bombers in with the fighters. :p
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Nice work Lusche.
I was slightly surprised that the P51 came in as most used. I expected to see the LA or spitfire edge it out slightly. I have to wonder if one particular squad stopped flying the mustang for a month if it would drop from it's no 1 slot.
I also was slightly surprised to see the C-hog as far up as it was. It doesnt seem like I see THAT many of them. Just lucky I guess because it is an awesome aircraft.
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Now lets see the stats for early war and mid war...
:D
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Originally posted by 2fly
Nice work Lusche.
I was slightly surprised that the P51 came in as most used. I expected to see the LA or spitfire edge it out slightly. I have to wonder if one particular squad stopped flying the mustang for a month if it would drop from it's no 1 slot.
Not very probable. The P-51 has 86379 more (kills+deaths) than the Spit 16, that's a difference of almost 7200 per tour. But it's easy to check. Which squad do you have in mind?
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That is some very interesting reading Lusche:aok
Thank you for the effort and post.
Now, to provide my nickels worth of free analysis:
I would expect to see the perk ride very high on the K/D charts. (1) Because they are the 'more powerful' rides; and (2) because usually the more experienced flyers take the perkie rides. The 2-weekers generally don't have enough points to grab and waste them.
Which Brings me to a second question. I wonder how many planes are better than their stats reflect (i.e. P51D) only because every 2-weeker and his brother log-on, grab one and fly into the bottom of a furball, last like a fart in a windstorm and then do it again. :D
Again, Great work Lusche... it is very interesting material. :aok :aok
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Originally posted by NCLawman
Which Brings me to a second question. I wonder how many places are better than their stats reflect (i.e. P51D) only because every 2-weeker and his brother log-on, grab one and fly into the bottom of a furball.
My guess:
First and foremost La-7 & Spit 16. Followed by planes like P-38L, P47N, F4U-D and other dumptrucks used for suicide bombing runs.
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My last post got me thinking even more, I wonder what the break down of plane usage would be by length of service in AH.
things that make you go ... hmmmmm.
Unfortunately, this is not something that can be pulled from the Scores section of the website, but would have been interesting to see just for curiosity sake.
to all
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I thought the F4U's would be higher in usage as many as i see. Then again I do more base defense especially aginst CV's added with the variant usage i guess it equals to what i see.
cool stats. :aok
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Originally posted by Lusche
Not very probable. The P-51 has 86379 more (kills+deaths) than the Spit 16, that's a difference of almost 7200 per tour. But it's easy to check. Which squad do you have in mind?
The 412th would cover about a third of those. They had over 2000 last month in the 51D. How many other pony groups are out there?
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Interesting.
These numbers certainly support making the P-47N an ENY 5 aircraft.
Nice work Lusche.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Interesting.
These numbers certainly support making the P-47N an ENY 5 aircraft.
Nice work Lusche.
Heh, I was mad at first, then I realized you were being sarcastic;) ---plane never had a positive K/D for the whole year, yet has eny of 5 (I DID ascertain I had 3% of ALL P47N kills for the year:aok )
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Yep, right down there below high performers like the F4F, zero, P47D-40, but right above the P-40E, an ENY 25 plane I believe.
Makes sense to me!
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Originally posted by bj229r
Heh, I was mad at first, then I realized you were being sarcastic;) ---plane never had a positive K/D for the whole year, yet has eny of 5 (I DID ascertain I had 3% of ALL P47N kills for the year:aok )
Maybe if people pulled back on the stick after releasing their ord and did not just race the bombs to the target, its K/D would be higher?
Just maybe? :lol
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I don't think you can count deaths in any way with plane stats. I also think you cannot rank them based on kills/deaths ratio. Obviously the perk planes will be ranked higher -- not because they are better killers, but because they are PERK planes, and pilots more often than not don't want to die (they don't do stuff they normally do).
Take the 262 for example. Its high kills/death has a lot more to do with being so fast nothing can catch it than it does with being a "super killer" -- against anything other than bombers flying level it's the hardest plane to get kills in -- even bombers can kill it with a lucky shot!
Doesn't mean the 262 is really the second best plane, it just means the deaths are low. Overall kills are also very low.
Note that the Spit8 and Spit16 are almost the same plane. Before we got either everybody was in the super-boosted SpitV. So I guess you could add those two together and you get about 9% for nearly-identical planes. That's a lot of spitties!
In general my thoughts are that the whole ENY balancing and MA splitting has totally upset the plane balance across the spectrum. I remember checking the plane stats well before the split and all that stuff took place, and checking them afterwards it was a completely different picture.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Obviously the perk planes will be ranked higher -- not because they are better killers, but because they are PERK planes
Most of them got the PERK states just because they are better killers. If they were like any other plane, their would be not much need for any perking at all ;)
Without perk limits, their K/D would drop considerable for sure, but planes like Tempest would still be ahead of the crowd in K/D terms just because of their performance.
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With respect to the F4U's...I have 2 thoughts/comments.
1) If you fly the arena's, most of the f4u's you see are actually -1A's. Yet the charts indicate otherwise - both the -1D and the -1C show greater "use" than the -1A. I'd hazard to say that most of the reason for the discrepency between how much you see the -1D and the -1A in the arena compared to their indicated use is the use to which the aircraft are put to in the arena - A handful of guys running suicide missions from a CV two miles off of a field are going to greatly increase the number of deaths in the -1D, which is going to exaggerate it's "use" in the charts above. Meanwhile, exactly the opposite is true of the -1C. It's status as a relatively poor performing fly perk plane with a brutal armament package means that it's not nearly as common to see as the chart would make it appear - but the guys who do fly it are good enough to get put those massive guns to good use, racking up lots of kills in a shorter time - which again exaggerates the "use".
So while the reality is you see more -1A's than both of the other too combined in the arena, it doesn't appear so because fewer deaths (and kills) are spread out over a much longer (on average) sortie. Ideally, the total amount of time players spent sortieing in each aircraft would be a much better measurement of "use", although I realize that Lusche had to work with what he can get, and if that's available, I've never seen it anywhere.
2) And with respect to the assumption that the K/D ratio for the -1C and -4 as compared to the rest of the plane set are good proof that they should be perked, that is a case of "statistics can prove anything you want if you start from the wrong assumption". The biggest reason that they have such markedly higher K/d ratios than other aircraft is not because they are so much better planes which proves they deserve their perks, but because they are perk planes in the first place and those that fly them are both more experienced, and more conscious of not losing the plane BECAUSE of the perk. If you perked the C202 or the Spit IX, you'd see a sudden and dramatic rise in the those aircraft's K/D ratio too.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Most of them got the PERK states just because they are better killers. If they were like any other plane, their would be not much need for any perking at all ;)
Without perk limits, their K/D would drop considerable for sure, but planes like Tempest would still be ahead of the crowd in K/D terms just because of their performance.
Sometimes that's true. Sometimes not. Most claim the Spit14 wouldn't see too much use (as it doesn't fly like a spit) if unperked. The Ta152 surely doesn't see much use. On the other hand, the Chog did, and the 4hog would, as would the tempest.
There is too wide a range. Some planes are perked to limit them, not because they are powerful, and some are perked because they are powerful. I've heard one comment from somebody at HTC (long ago) state the Spit14 is perked because it's a monster, with some reference to its extreme rate of climb. On the other hand we know the chog wasn't perked until it was horribly over-used (this back when hogs were NOT uber! Imagine now!)
So I think the high ratio is more about lack of deaths, rather than surplus of kills. Look at the 262. Ranked #2, but definitely NOT a super-lethal killer, like the tempest. Probably in reality it's in the lower 30s of the entire planeset.
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Originally posted by Krusty
. Look at the 262. Ranked #2, but definitely NOT a super-lethal killer, like the tempest. Probably in reality it's in the lower 30s of the entire planeset.
Lower 30s in which regard? Sorted by what?
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I was thinking the same about the F4U's. I know when i get in a perk ride I'm more careful take the time to climb out to a good alt to be above any fight. Even when i do loose a perk ride it's after multiple sorties in it of 3-4 kills a piece then i park it and go back to the -1A.
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The only things the 262 has going for it are its range, endurance, speed, acceleration, and armament. It is absolutely one of the least lethal planes in AH.
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Don't ever quote me on this, but ...
"What hub said!"
Lusche, just in an overall "effective killer" kind of ranking.
Try re-running the numbers with JUST kills, not kills+deaths. You'll find that they shift a lot. There are a lot more kills in the top3 than the others. Deaths can be from augering, second account killing, wing ripping for no fershlugginer reason, kill shootering, and many many non-combat-related reasons. Or just screwing around.
Just use kills and the outcome is a better representation on the chart.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
The only things the 262 has going for it are its range, endurance, speed, acceleration, and armament. It is absolutely one of the least lethal planes in AH.
Most that fly the 262 know it takes skill to fly, where as tempest is less then HALF the perks of 262 and much easier to fly. Alot of pilots ive talked to simply dont have the perks or do not want to spend 200 plus perks on it, since they can get same kills in a tempest and its cheaper. In regards Both planes are unique in their own way, and needs to be flown by skilled pilot or simply a "spitfire" could catch it and shoot it down.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Don't ever quote me on this, but ...
"What hub said!"
Lusche, just in an overall "effective killer" kind of ranking.
Try re-running the numbers with JUST kills, not kills+deaths. You'll find that they shift a lot. There are a lot more kills in the top3 than the others. Deaths can be from augering, second account killing, wing ripping for no fershlugginer reason, kill shootering, and many many non-combat-related reasons. Or just screwing around.
Just use kills and the outcome is a better representation on the chart.
No.
The "usage" chart (where kills and deaths are combined) was intendend to show just that, how much a plane is used in MA, or, to some degree how much impact it has. We don't have any "sorties flown" stats, so I had to come up with some kind of substitution. Counting kills only would result in exactly what you apparently like to avoid: An overestimation of planes like the 262, which happen to have very few deaths.
Planes like the F4UD are more numerous like their pure "kill" numbers indicate, because they are often used for ground attack duties.
But here you go, a chart which only accounts for kills:
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2604/plkillpf4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
And for comparison Kills&Deaths again:
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/203/usageuu1.jpg)
Not that much difference at the top, but the 262 goes up by 16 positions.
And regarding to the 262's lethality... don't limit your view on pure fighter vs fighter combat. The 262 can go anywhere and strike anwhere at will. It can quickly go and hunt that goons... or try to take out that buffs that are about to level your field before any other interceptor can reach them.
Sure, if you are in a fighter and aware of it's presence the 262 poses much less a danger than a Tempest...but the game is not all about dogfights ;)
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Originally posted by Lusche
Counting kills only would result in exactly what you apparently like to avoid: An overestimation of planes like the 262, which happen to have very few deaths.
True, but when comparing against the P-51 kills, the P51D has (let's say) 30,000 kills, and the 262 has (let's say) 1000 kills.
The P-51D is 30x better. However, if you compare kills/deaths, the 262 is suddenly the second best fighter by a long shot. I'm thinking specifically of this chart:
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/395/kdyo1.jpg)
Neither is perfect, as you've mentioned the flaws in the "kills only" ranking, but the same goes for bombers. You can't count how many times a bomber has flown around, hit nothing, and landed, or ditched, or just pulled the plug. That would skew those results a lot.
Neither is perfect, but I think "kills only" is a bit better for comparing the planes against each other, as in these charts.
EDIT: P.S. The charts are pretty cool, though :aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
True, but when comparing against the P-51 kills, the P51D has (let's say) 30,000 kills, and the 262 has (let's say) 1000 kills.
The P-51D is 30x better. However, if you compare kills/deaths, the 262 is suddenly the second best fighter by a long shot. I'm thinking specifically of this chart:
Well, with the K/D chart I was just presenting MA K/D values. Not ranking planes in dubious terms of "quality". The "better fighter" discussion is a complete different topic. The K/D chart can only be used as one argument in it.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Neither is perfect, as you've mentioned the flaws in the "kills only" ranking, but the same goes for bombers. You can't count how many times a bomber has flown around, hit nothing, and landed, or ditched, or just pulled the plug. That would skew those results a lot.
This is true, though I sometimes have the impression that very few bombers actually return to base unharmed. ;) (That 30k start raiders are rare species and one can argue about their impact on game)
Of course this isn't true for the Arado, which usually can easly avoid getting killed.
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I was being facetious- the 262 is a beast in terms of overall lethality. I wouldn't suggest furballing in one, but with regards to simply getting kills, without getting killed, it's certainly one of the best. I'd agree that it's not the ideal plane for the average MA engagement, but that's another discussion entirely.
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Nice work with the stats Lusche :aok!
Food for thought for you:
[list=1]
- Using kills+deaths as a proxy for usage assumes that each kill and death are worth the same amount of usage. Each death equals 1 usage point, and each kill is worth 1 usage point. This means that 1 kill is equal to 1 death.
The problem is that's not the case. We know that for some planes you can get more than 1 kill per 1 death and in others less than 1 kill per 1 death.
One way you can adjust for this is to multiply the kills by the k/(d+1) ratio and then add the adjusted_kills+deaths together. The k/d ratio tells us that 1 death = X number of kills. Multiplying total # of kills by k/d ratio of that plane then normalizes kills so that you are counting 1 kill = 1 death.
EDIT: adding the below items:
=======================
- The stats show the compilation of the total numbers added up over 2007. When drawing conclusions from this fantastic data we should remember that over the course of each tour those numbers are probably fluctuating as well. I'd be curious about median usage and the deviations per tour per model.
- We should also remember that comparing %'s can be a little misleading because they mask the scale of the differences. A 1% differential may not seem like a lot but if you have 10,000,000 kills+deaths in a year (not out of the range of possibility for AH) then 1% is 100,000 kills+deaths.
- It would be interesting to see aircraft series grouped together as well - for instance all spits as 1 group, all mustangs as another group, etc.
Again, fantastic work!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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That's an interesting thought there... Trying to normalize kills. Not sure if that's the best way to do it, but interesting idea!
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Originally posted by dtango
Nice work with the stats Lusche :aok!
Food for thought for you:
[list=1]
- Using kills+deaths as a proxy for usage assumes that each kill and death are worth the same amount of usage. Each death equals 1 usage point, and each kill is worth 1 usage point. This means that 1 kill is equal to 1 death.
The problem is that's not the case. We know that for some planes you can get more than 1 kill per 1 death and in others less than 1 kill per 1 death.
One way you can adjust for this is to multiply the kills by the k/(d+1) ratio and then add the adjusted_kills+deaths together. The k/d ratio tells us that 1 death = X number of kills. Multiplying total # of kills by k/d ratio of that plane then normalizes kills so that you are counting 1 kill = 1 death.
[/B]
That's more the direction of assessing some kind of a planes quality. I once dabbled a bit with it, but I didn't find it worthwile. I wasn't interested in that.
I rather see any kill as a single event. My "usage" table just states in how many events a certain plane had a part in - either as killer or victim. I did that because I can't quantify the number of sorties in any way.
EDIT:
OK.. I did it, just for fun:
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5470/formelxf8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Now, does this chart really tell us more? Looking at it one could think Tempest's have currently a huge impact on game, or you constantly run risk of getting shot down by them. Which isn't true at all. This charts does reflect actual numbers much less than (K+D) or kills only.
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Good topic and research Lusche... Thanks
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nice stats lusche.
I believe your origional combination of kills + deaths best indicates the chance of interacting with any plane in AH.
its simple really. very few people land in AH. those that do tend to have a few scalps. those that dont.. well they don't land because they got shot down and someone else is landing their scalps or got shot down after shooting them down.
a lot of lead is always flying around in AH and it tends to tag just about everybody.
its just as accurate a measure as flight hours per plane I think. thats the true stat missing from AH and one I have always been curious to see...
combined flight hours by all players for each airplane. :)
then you would really see what plane is used most on an hourly basis.
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That and kills or deaths per hour per type would be interesting additions. Man, what a bunch of dorks we are. :lol
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LUSCHE, you rock <<
>>
w00t seafire... w00t
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Just thinking out loud in text here :)..
Yeah, the kills*k/d approach can get a little interesting. I guess adding kills+deaths together bothers me inherently as proxy for usage. Noodling on this way back when the more I looked at this the more I didn't like the various ways of trying to tally up usage from the stats we have access to.
I think it boils down to what one defines as "usage". Is it # of sorties? Is it # of encounters/events? Etc. I've approached this in the past from a sorties perspective and have come away unsatisfied with the approaches I've tried.
If it's # of events then I can see where a kill and a death are equally weighted. But here are some caveats with counting kills + deaths as encounters as a proxy for evaluating usage rate.
total_events_per_model = kill_events + death_events + events_with_no_kills_or_death s
So we have data for the 1st two terms. But the last term is troublesome. For instance what about events where one or both parties escape? Worse yet, what about events where it's more than a 1v1? How do we count these events because if its more than a 1v1 then even if a kill / death is registered what about the planes in the furball that neither get the kill or becomes a death. They have all registered that the other planes were in the engagement therefore "in usage" yet this isn't recorded as an event in a stat anywhere.
Now of course I just want to make sure folks understand that I'm not criticizing your stats at all Lusche. I'm just intrigued by some of the riddles it leads to.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by dtango
Just thinking out loud in text here :)..
Yeah, the kills*k/d approach can get a little interesting. I guess adding kills+deaths together bothers me inherently as proxy for usage. Noodling on this way back when the more I looked at this the more I didn't like the various ways of trying to tally up usage from the stats we have access to.
I think it boils down to what one defines as "usage". Is it # of sorties? Is it # of encounters/events? Etc. I've approached this in the past from a sorties perspective and have come away unsatisfied with the approaches I've tried.
If it's # of events then I can see where a kill and a death are equally weighted. But here are some caveats with counting kills + deaths as encounters as a proxy for evaluating usage rate.
total_events_per_model = kill_events + death_events + events_with_no_kills_or_death s
So we have data for the 1st two terms. But the last term is troublesome. For instance what about events where one or both parties escape? Worse yet, what about events where it's more than a 1v1? How do we count these events because if its more than a 1v1 then even if a kill / death is registered what about the planes in the furball that neither get the kill or becomes a death. They have all registered that the other planes were in the engagement therefore "in usage" yet this isn't recorded as an event in a stat anywhere.
Now of course I just want to make sure folks understand that I'm not criticizing your stats at all Lusche. I'm just intrigued by some of the riddles it leads to.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
I see were you come from, but sadly throwing K/d in the mix doesn't help at all. Because it puts a kind of quality into it where we (or I ;)) am looking purely for quantity. So as # of sorties is not known, we can only count events. That's just the restriction of the data HTC is providing us. Examination of K/D is a totally different kind of shoe in my opinion. Scaling "events" with K/D in any way completely distorts the picture we get about the prevalence of certain plane types. The chances to get killed by a Tempest or Me 262 are really minimal each sortie, the K/D scaled chart seems to indicate otherwise. Best is to evaluate both usage and K/D charts seperately.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
That and kills or deaths per hour per type would be interesting additions. Man, what a bunch of dorks we are. :lol
Compiling that stuff is certainly one of the most dweebish things one can do. I truly qualify as a nerd now. But that has a long tradition with me...
This stuff was part of the first multiplayer combat flight "sims" I played before being able to go online:
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9316/hs129eh1.th.jpg) (http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hs129eh1.jpg)
:p
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With the data available, I don't think you'll be able to come up with a chart that shows plane usage in the MAs.
K/D is certainly no way to track it. There are 3 basic groups flying in the MAs,
[list=1]
- The Elite- This group flies with more skill, there for lands more scalps and dies much less. On the other hand, they are a small percentage of the population.
- The Average Player- This group is the middle of the road, they are moderately skilled, and land kills often. They also have big runs where they are complete newbis and spend more time dieing than they do lifting their gear, but thats ok with then, RTBin is a convenience.
- The newbs- This group is still working on the basics, learning the ropes. For them landing is a luxury, even without kills
[/list=1]
All three groups will fly an F4. One group will get lots of kills and few deaths, another most likely more kills than deaths, and the third far more deaths than kills. While the "Average" group is the biggest, there is no way the "elite" group and "newb" group will offset each other. The are a lot more newbs than there are elite players.
I think the "kills only" chart shows the usage closer. I'm sure there are a number of dedicated pony squads out there, and I think that is why the pony tops the charts, but the rest of the top 10 look like you would think they should. In the "kills only" chart the elite group comes closer to covering the lack of kills by the newbs, so I think it shows the usage more accurately.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
With the data available, I don't think you'll be able to come up with a chart that shows plane usage in the MAs.
K/D is certainly no way to track it. There are 3 basic groups flying in the MAs,
[list=1]
- The Elite- This group flies with more skill, there for lands more scalps and dies much less. On the other hand, they are a small percentage of the population.
- The Average Player- This group is the middle of the road, they are moderately skilled, and land kills often. They also have big runs where they are complete newbis and spend more time dieing than they do lifting their gear, but thats ok with then, RTBin is a convenience.
- The newbs- This group is still working on the basics, learning the ropes. For them landing is a luxury, even without kills
[/list=1]
All three groups will fly an F4. One group will get lots of kills and few deaths, another most likely more kills than deaths, and the third far more deaths than kills. While the "Average" group is the biggest, there is no way the "elite" group and "newb" group will offset each other. The are a lot more newbs than there are elite players.
I think the "kills only" chart shows the usage closer. I'm sure there are a number of dedicated pony squads out there, and I think that is why the pony tops the charts, but the rest of the top 10 look like you would think they should. In the "kills only" chart the elite group comes closer to covering the lack of kills by the newbs, so I think it shows the usage more accurately. [/B]
So, lets see, last night I tried taking off from a caped field lets say 20 times (more or less). I used a lala, niki, and Ki84. Half the attempts I died after the gear came up. The rest, I either got picked after a turn or two, or managed to take one or two of them with me. What category would I and the rest of the guys fighting there be in? :rofl
Wow, what a nice way to call the categories BS. What wrong with me? :O
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Originally posted by dedalos
What category would I and the rest of the guys fighting there be in? :rofl
(http://www.hickerphoto.com/data/media/29/white_baby_seal_T3507.jpg)
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Originally posted by dedalos
So, lets see, last night I tried taking off from a caped field lets say 20 times (more or less). I used a lala, niki, and Ki84. Half the attempts I died after the gear came up. The rest, I either got picked after a turn or two, or managed to take one or two of them with me. What category would I and the rest of the guys fighting there be in? :rofl
Wow, what a nice way to call the categories BS. What wrong with me? :O
I would think you'd fit in the "average group" this escapade would certainly fall under the " big runs where they are complete newbis and spend more time dieing than they do lifting their gear" :D
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
I would think you'd fit in the "average group" this escapade would certainly fall under the " big runs where they are complete newbis and spend more time dieing than they do lifting their gear" :D
:furious :furious :furious
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I wonder how many tons of virtual lead have been fired in Aces High's history...
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Originally posted by Latrobe
TEMP is #1 only because they never come down from 30K unless they are BnZing a guy already in a fight, and zooms away at mach 2.
Neat charts :aok
no i didnt i went in a 7000 and once on the deck i kill i had a kd of like 5-1 if not more in a temp
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Originally posted by Messiah
I wonder how many tons of virtual lead have been fired in Aces High's history...
If those electrons all got together at the same place and same time, a quantum singularity would result, and devour the entire planet in a nanosecond.
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Lusche.
I think it would be interesting to see your initial usage chart reworked to show usage by general airframe.
Grouping the P 51D/B together, The Bf 109s, the Fw/TA 190s, P 47s, Lavochkins, Typhoons/Tempests, all the Spitfires , etc etc.
!S
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Originally posted by kozhedub
Lusche.
I think it would be interesting to see your initial usage chart reworked to show usage by general airframe.
Grouping the P 51D/B together, The Bf 109s, the Fw/TA 190s, P 47s, Lavochkins, Typhoons/Tempests, all the Spitfires , etc etc.
!S
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8002/fighterfamilyusagepo1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Spitfires end up with having 18.5% of all Fighter kills & deaths.
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Now that chart reflects pretty much what you see flying in the mains.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
Now that chart reflects pretty much what you see flying in the mains.
Yes, but usually people lament about seeing only Spit 16's. Which isn't true at all ;)
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5302/spitdiszn8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
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Originally posted by Lusche
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8002/fighterfamilyusagepo1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Spitfires end up with having 18.5% of all Fighter kills & deaths.
Excellent, thanks.
This makes "usage" clearer to me I think because planes with many variants would have their % divided too many times.
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Well, then! PERK THE OTHER FIGHTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :furious
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Yep, ENY 5 for the P47N makes more and more sense. P47 series is sitting right up there with the heavy hitters like the A6M2/5 and Yaks.
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Originally posted by Lusche
(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8002/fighterfamilyusagepo1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Spitfires end up with having 18.5% of all Fighter kills & deaths.
Looks like my normal day in the MA :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by whiteman
Looks like my normal day in the MA :rolleyes:
If so, I don't undertand the :rolleyes
Less than one in five of all kills a Spit has a part in, and there is a wide range of other fighter scoring. Also not all Spits are the same, just like there are vast differences between individual 190 models.
I think my initial "plane usage" and especially "kills sorted by eny" show that there is a bigger diversity in rides than we sometimes tend to believe.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Yep, ENY 5 for the P47N makes more and more sense. P47 series is sitting right up there with the heavy hitters like the A6M2/5 and Yaks.
No the perked version is actually sitting right next to killers like the P51B and 190A5 ;) but otherwise, I generally tend to agree.
Of all the perks, that one makes the least amount of sense to me.
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Originally posted by Lusche
If so, I don't undertand the :rolleyes
Less than one in five of all kills a Spit has a part in, and there is a wide range of other fighter scoring. Also not all Spits are the same, just like there are vast differences between individual 190 models.
I think my initial "plane usage" and especially "kills sorted by eny" show that there is a bigger diversity in rides than we sometimes tend to believe.
I think I'm involved in that 1 in 5 70% of the time. :D Your other chart surprised me, this chart just take out the "Others" category and thats just about what I see personally, maybe bump up 51 sightings.
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Originally posted by Ghastly
No the perked version is actually sitting right next to killers like the P51B and 190A5 ;) but otherwise, I generally tend to agree.
Of all the perks, that one makes the least amount of sense to me.
I saw between P40-E and Seafire? (For the "N")
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Nice work,Lusche.
Thanks:aok
Regards,
Sun
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Very nice Lusche :aok
A few comments:
Those that think they see more of a specific plane than the chart indicates - it could be psychological, but also could be a time zone thing. Possibly the US plane usage increase during US prime time and the use of spit / hurrri / typh increase during UK prime time etc.
The grouped-by-types plot makes more sense. The usage of F4U is split between 5 variants, 4 of which are not that different from each other. Same is the case for the P47, P38 and spitfire. Yes, before people jump, I know they are not EXACTLY the same, but the choosing of a variant is more a matter of personal taste and not passion for one very specific variant. That is in contrast to F6F, N1K, La7 of which you have just one variant, or the P51 where one variant dominates completely.
I am interested to see how the Mosquito is doing since it was fixed. I think because its usage was near zero for most of the year, its averages are so low and are completely skewed.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Most claim the Spit14 wouldn't see too much use (as it doesn't fly like a spit) if unperked... I've heard one comment from somebody at HTC (long ago) state the Spit14 is perked because it's a monster, with some reference to its extreme rate of climb...
I've always been one of those who thought the Spit XIV should not be perked simply because, over 23K is where it's in it's element and that's not a likely fighting alt in the MA's.
This weekend, I took the XIV out for a couple of rides. Starting with a minimal alt advantage (~2K) I was able to run down both a 190D-9 and a P-51D in full stride on the deck using WEP. Once in my guns range neither stood a chance.
The XIV's a monster in more ways than one and I now believe the minimal perk is more than justified.
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Originally posted by Messiah
I wonder how many tons of virtual lead have been fired in Aces High's history...
WAY more since I started flying the D25 and having to re-arm 7 times for 2 kills and 1 assist.:lol :cry
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Originally posted by RedTop
WAY more since I started flying the D25 and having to re-arm 7 times for 2 kills and 1 assist.:lol :cry
:rofl :rofl
PS: Red you forgot a 1 before the 7.:aok
donkey
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WAY more since I started flying the D25 and having to re-arm 7 times for 2 kills and 1 assist.:lol :cry
dang, do you just hold the trigger from 1.5K out??? :D
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This thread is a tad old don't ya think?
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Yes, but usually people lament about seeing only Spit 16's. Which isn't true at all ;)
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5302/spitdiszn8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
oh man, a spitdweeb pie, great now were gona see more spit dweebs.
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Very, very good work Lusche aka Snailman. I keep a record of stats on our website just for my squad, similar stuff only with 3D pie charts.
Obviously, most of the usage we see are spits :D
Interesting to note that the p51D is more used than my dream machine, the ultra uber cheatfire mark XVI. Made me go :O
Now I can start calling p51D drivers pony noobs!
(muahahaha rubs hands and smiles with sweet thoughts of revenge)
:salute
P.S Adonai: Whose your favourite spit dweeb of all time??? :lol
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Outstanding ! :aok
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Nice work Snailman :salute
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I have made such a chart for fighters only:
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5001/fighternationswc9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5001/fighternationswc9.99cab35f84.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=529&i=fighternationswc9.jpg)
If one would include bombers too, the American share would certainly get substantially bigger, followed by the Soviet one (Il-2).
Brits would get alot too. So many people use the Lanc.. :noid
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:salute info is great
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I just think its great that you took the time to compile this for us,
plus its cool to see my hurri up there near the tops :D