Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: angelsandair on January 09, 2008, 02:02:25 PM
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anyone kno what that is, i saw it in a magazine, looked like a regular p-51 mustang, no cannons, nothing wierd, o and i think aces high should have the p-51a with the 4 20mm cannons also, but main topic is the p-6mustang, tell me a little about it, kind of interested
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Never heard of it, and google didn't even turn up a single hit. Methinks you're mistaken on the designation perhaps?
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The P-6 was the Curtiss Hawk.
Are you sure the magazine wasn't talking about the A-36A series?
The Mustang I was equipped with 4x 20mm cannons while the P-51A (Mustang II) was equipped with 4x .50 caliber machine guns.
The A-36A was a ground attack version based on the P-51A airframe and was distinguished from the P-51A by the dive brakes and from what details I could find about its armament, the A-36A carried 2 nose mounted .50 cals in addition to 4x wing mounted .50 cals.
ack-ack
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A-36 was also one of the Allison-engined Mustangs, so its nose looked much different.
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The A-36A Apache/Invader would be a nice addition to the game. Even though only ~300 were in service they actually claimed over 100 air kills in addition to their designated role as a ground attacker.
Plus, it would be fun to watch the P-51'ers try to fight with it over 10K... :D
But then again, the REAL Invader (A-26) is needed much more.
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Pilots still referred to the A-36 as a Mustang though.
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Yeah, the USAAF was the only ones who ever called it the Invader, it was the Mustang to the pilots and the press.
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Maybe he means the F-6. The F-5 was the P-38 photo-recon bird. There was a photo-recon P-51 (allison powered). It had a bulged glass bubble behind the folding canopy, with the radio gear, and housed a large camera in there. I believe they were armed.
Don't think it really has much use in AH. I'd rather see the A-36 or Allison P-51 (with or without 20mms, or maybe go the chog route and perk the 20mms, whatever).
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I think the F-6 was the photo-reco P-51, but aside from the camera it was identical to a P-51D. Same armament and everything.
Thats what Bill Shomo was flying when he got his "7 in one stroke" mission.
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Negative, more like a A or B, not a D. It had the birdcage and the razorback fuselage. The camera was in the razorback radio area (behind the canopy, in line with the pilot's head). I don't recall about the nose, but I'm 99% sure it was an Allison-powered plane (don't need high-alt for recon if you're very fast down low)
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Right as always Krusty.
(http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/F6.jpeg)
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Let me find you a photo of what I'm thinking of
(http://uscockpits.com/Early%20Fighters/F-6B%20Mustang.jpg)
(http://www.michael-reimer.com/CFS2/CFS2_Profiles/ETO_Allies_9_USAAF-Dateien/North%2520American%2520F-6B%2520MUSTANG_AXB_300x125.jpg)
(http://www.accurate-miniatures.com/images/f-6b.jpg)
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I think I know what you're talking about, there was a photo recon version of the '51B with the camera in the birdcage angled down and back. I have a diagram in one of my books. I can't recall its designation, but it was there.
I've never seen a photo-recon version of the A-36 (there weren't enough of them built), but its possible.
{edit} you added the pics while I was writing. I'd want more than a profile to verify an Allison-engined recon 'Stang. I'll keep looking.
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By John L. Frisbee, Contributing Editor
Instant Ace
After 16 months of shooting up ground targets, Bill Shomo finally got a crack at a whole squadron of enemy fighters.
There are pilots who fly fighters, and there are fighter pilots. Bill Shomo was a fighter pilot, and a frustrated one at that. For 16 months, the 82d Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron to which he was assigned had moved from strip to strip along the north coast of New Guinea and finally to Morotai, some 250 miles northwest of the big island. The squadron was equipped with obsolete P-39s and P-40s, too short-ranged to reach the air-to-air combat action where every true fighter pilot wants to be. The P-38 and P-47 jocks got the glory, while Shomo and his squadron mates supported General MacArthur's drive to the Philippines by photographing and shooting up ground targets--hazardous work, but not very satisfying for a fighter pilot.
As 1944 drew to a close, it looked as though the war would end before Shomo had a chance to test his skill in air-to-air combat. Then, in December, things began to pick up. The squadron learned that it was getting North American P-51Ds equipped for photo-recce work. Shomo had flown two local check-outs in the P-51 and one short mission to test its guns when, on Dec. 24, he was called to group headquarters on Leyte. There he was made commander of the squadron and ordered to move it to Mindoro, an island off the southwest coast of Luzon, to support MacArthur's landing about 75 miles north of Manila, which would take place on Jan. 9, 1945.
A fortnight after Shomo took command of the 82d, it was in place at Mindoro, and on Jan. 9 he led his first P-51 combat mission (which was also only his sixth flight in the Mustang). It was a low-level recce to find out what air strength the Japanese had in northern Luzon. As they approached the Japanese airfield at Tuguegarao, Shomo spotted the first aerial target he had seen while airborne in all his months of combat--a Val dive bomber, turning onto its final landing approach. One burst from his six .50-caliber guns brought it down at a spot Shomo can describe as precisely today as he could on that January day 39 years ago. And with good reason.
Two days later, on Jan. 11, Captain Shomo and his wingman, Lt. Paul Lipscomb, were heading north on the deck to photograph and strafe Japanese airfields at Tuguegarao, Aparri, and Laoag at the extreme north of Luzon. Over the exact spot where Shomo had picked up the Val, they caught a brief glimpse of enemy planes flying south above broken clouds at about 2,500 feet. How many enemy planes? What difference did it make? Shomo and Lipscomb pulled up through the clouds in an Immelmann and rolled out behind a Betty bomber that was being escorted by a squadron of fighters 11 Tonys and one Tojo.
On their first pass through the formation, Shomo and Lipscomb had the advantage of surprise. Shomo shot down four Tonys, then came up under the bomber, putting a burst into its belly. The flaming Betty headed for a crash landing with two Tonys still hanging to its right wing.
Shomo and Lipscomb pulled up in a tight vertical spiral to regain altitude while the Tojo latched onto Shomo's tail, firing until it stalled out and dove into the clouds. The Betty blew up as it bellied in, and the two escorting Tonys headed for the hills, staying on the deck. Shomo made a second diving pass, nailing each Tony with a short burst, for a total of seven victories. In less than six minutes, Bill Shomo had become an ace, the ultimate goal of every fighter pilot. Lipscomb got three-fifths of the way to that goal. The last three enemy fighters then disappeared into the clouds.
On April 1, 1945, William A. Shomo, by then a major, was awarded the Medal of Honor for leading an attack against heavy odds and destroying seven enemy aircraft. No other American pilot scored that many confirmed victories in a single mission.
In more than 200 combat missions, Shomo, now retired and living in Pittsburgh, saw only 14 enemy aircraft from his cockpit. He attacked and shot down eight of them. Shomo credits that remarkable record to closing within 40 yards of each target and not wasting ammunition on deflection shots. It may be credited equally well to the valor of a fighter pilot who didn't stop to count the odds.
Published March 1984. For presentation on this web site, some Valor articles have been amended for accuracy.
Copyright Air Force Association. All rights reserved.
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Hmm, heres an F-6A Photo-Recon Allison Engined Mustang. Apparently the letter designator on the F-6 matches up with its "parent" version of the P-51.
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/Mustang~I.jpg)
(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p51-15.jpg)
Shomo was in an F-6D when he made his kills- and it wasn't the "Flying Undertaker", that was the P-51D he was given after the mission for photo ops and propoganda.
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I like the looks of that Allison nose. Kind of a cross between a P-40B and a Spitfire! Looks sexy!
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http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_3.html
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_8.html
A total of 91 aircraft from the Block-10 production lot (71 P-51B-10-NAs and 20 P-51C-10-NTs) were fitted with two oblique K24 cameras, or a K17 and a K22, to become F-6C-NA or -NT photo aircraft. Most of these aircraft retained their guns. In each case the cameras were mounted immediately in front of the structural break ahead of the tailwheel, looking out the left side.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html
A total of 163 of these P-51Ks were completed as F-6K photo-reconnaissance aircraft. 126 Inglewood-built P-51Ds from blocks 20, 25, and 30 were converted after completion as F-6Ds. A few others were similarly converted near the end of the war. All of these photographic Mustangs carried two cameras in the rear fuselage, usually a K17 and a K22, one looking out almost horizontally off to the left and the other one down below looking out at at an oblique angle. Most F-6Ds and Ks carried a direction- finding receiver, serviced by a rotating loop antenna mounted just ahead of the dorsal fin. Most F-6Ds and Ks retained their armament.
The Baugher site is good source for American a/c info.
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Originally posted by angelsandair
anyone kno what that is, i saw it in a magazine, looked like a regular p-51 mustang, no cannons, nothing wierd, o and i think aces high should have the p-51a with the 4 20mm cannons also, but main topic is the p-6mustang, tell me a little about it, kind of interested
the A had 20mm's? i thought it had 4 50 cals........
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The P-51 (not P-51A, the one BEFORE the -A) had 200 made with 4x20mm cannons. These were planned to be sent to England, but the US took posession of them. They used them mostly for straffing, I think. They had the Allison with a low-alt power curve, so it's got less power and lower alts than the P-51B/D.
It's been requested a few times over the years, but chances of seeing it in-game are pretty slim. It saw minimal action, compared to the MG-armed Allison P-51As that followed.
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Some As were fitted with 4 Hispano 20mm cannons. Not many.
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/colourshot.jpg)
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Martin is very knowledgeable about Mustangs but I think he is mistaken about the ident of the Mustang in that photo.
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Originally posted by Krusty
It's been requested a few times over the years, but chances of seeing it in-game are pretty slim. It saw minimal action, compared to the MG-armed Allison P-51As that followed.
Mustang Is and IAs served with the RAF up until 1944.
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Another shot of the A with Hispanos.
(http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/media/P-51A$20Training.jpg)
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Not an -A. Just a P-51. No suffix.
The -A came after the cannon-armed version.
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F6s were the recce birds. F6A being allison engined, F6C and F6D or K based on th Merlin birds
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well guys, the p-6 i saw in a magazine was called the p-6, it had machine guns, looked like a p-51d, maybe it was used after the war?? it didnt look like it had anything fancy on it, o and the p51s with the 4 20mms look cool
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Originally posted by Krusty
The P-51 (not P-51A, the one BEFORE the -A) had 200 made with 4x20mm cannons. These were planned to be sent to England, but the US took posession of them. They used them mostly for straffing, I think. They had the Allison with a low-alt power curve, so it's got less power and lower alts than the P-51B/D.
Incorrect. 150 "NA-91s" (later changed to P-51) were sent to England as part of the Land-Lease program. These were outfitted with 4x 20mm cannons at the special request of the British. The British wanted the cannons because of the weak firepower of the rifle caliber .303 machine guns at the time on the Spitfire and Hurricanes.
The USAAF took 57 out of the 150 for it's own use. Out of those 57, 2 were used as testing platforms and the remaining 55 were equipped with recce cameras in the rear of the fuselage and redesignated F6-As.
It's been requested a few times over the years, but chances of seeing it in-game are pretty slim. It saw minimal action, compared to the MG-armed Allison P-51As that followed.
The MG armed Allisions were also produced in greater quantity. The Mustang I and Ia were used as tactical recce and ground attack aircraft over the English Channel but weren't considered to be effective fighters and were rarely used in that role.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Treize69
I think the F-6 was the photo-reco P-51, but aside from the camera it was identical to a P-51D. Same armament and everything.
Thats what Bill Shomo was flying when he got his "7 in one stroke" mission.
You are correct and incorrect sir... The F-6 was an unarmed pony used in the ETO for photo recon. There was tape over the unused gun ports in the wing leading edges. My guess is that they were a field mod of high time ponys.
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Originally posted by MajIssue
You are correct and incorrect sir... The F-6 was an unarmed pony used in the ETO for photo recon. There was tape over the unused gun ports in the wing leading edges. My guess is that they were a field mod of high time ponys.
F-6As retained their 4x .50 caliber machine guns after being converted from Mustang Ias.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by MajIssue
You are correct and incorrect sir... The F-6 was an unarmed pony used in the ETO for photo recon. There was tape over the unused gun ports in the wing leading edges. My guess is that they were a field mod of high time ponys.
F6s were factory produced and served in all theaters of the war and in Korea.
They retained their armament. There were F6 Aces. There is a restored F6D painted as Ace Clyde East's F6D "Lil Margaret". It's one of the finest Mustang restorations flying and has the cameras in place.
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sooooo i guess i read it wrong or its wrong, well i kind of thought it was a late ww2 to post ww2 fighter thnx guys
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Don't feel too bad. It might have been a mistake in the source you read.
Like the quote below that makes me want to remark, "What's David McCampbell's 9 victories, chopped liver??"
Originally posted by SlapShot
By John L. Frisbee, Contributing Editor
Instant Ace
No other American pilot scored that many confirmed victories in a single mission.
Published March 1984. For presentation on this web site, some Valor articles have been amended for accuracy. [Well, looks like you missed this one.]
Copyright Air Force Association. All rights reserved.
David McCambell (http://www.concentric.net/~Markorr/navyace.htm)
US Aircraft Designations (http://www.driko.org/des.html)
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woa man, that site is pretty cool, i added it in my favs thnx