Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Imoutfishing on January 10, 2008, 01:27:21 AM
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As a whole the FSO event remain's the pride of the AH events.
With the change's in squad size & and fellow FSO participant's I am finding it harder and harder to find a good fight on a Friday night. The set up's seem to be there but the fight isn't.
There seem's to be more & more "rules" and less planning in each event.
The FSO was based on a common concept that few seem to follow anymore. The rules seem to dis-favor larger squads in the manor of plane selection's now and play favor to the less established & undermaned groups of flyer's. Try not to forget what got us to this point please.
If this is the direction we are going I will break up our squad and form several small squads so we can get a nice ride from time to time.
Then there is the fact that you can be bounced from FSO's for not showing up in numbers... I can combat that to :)
Sled seem's sharp but he is simply trying to wrangle cat's at this point.
FSO's are in far & pail to what we used to have. It's on the verge of a joke:)
Another issue is the massive holes in the AH plane set. It would help out big time if we would get the HE111 & the Betty for the CM's to work with. Why is it so hard to give us a plane from time to time?
MGD
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IMHO I find the FSO's to still be alot of fun. It's a rare occasion in an FSO were me and my squad have trouble finding a fight, and I think that they are gonna be even more fun now that the CM's are trying to include GV's into the event, it's gonna add a whole new aspect to the FSO.
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lol GVs will be fodder only, almost all AH players are tooooo good at bombing! If vehicle icons are removed, this may change a little, though only a little.;) also altering graphics and shooting thru hills and trees etc. will allow those folks to start gaming the game in FSO---> NO THANKS <
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The FSOs are consistently pushing the 300 limit. That's a good sign that things are heading in the right direction as a whole. Each event has it's good and bad, you should remember this from being a former FSO guy.
Why is it so hard to give us a plane from time to time?
Who are you asking? You know where the wishlist is, you also know we can't fix that :) Ask where it can do some good.
As far as Sled wrangling cat's, I'm not sure I understand that point. Sled is the lead for the FSO team, are you saying his CMs are unmanageable or are you generally insulting the players overall? Both of which are clearly out of line and incorrect in your assumptions.
The players do quite well as a group, the CMs do quite well in their effort.
Or did I misunderstand the cat wrangling analogy?
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You say "seems there's a lot more rules and a lot less planning" -- and I take issues with that statement.
I've done some wargaming at the upper levels before. I've helped design and plan rulesets. If you DON'T have rules, the spirit of the event is broken. Big time. I think the FSO has been around so long that enough people "think outside the box" to the point we need new rules.
Good for them, thinking creatively, from a problem-solving aspect. However, bad for the overall event, bad for getting folks to fight others.
Think of it this way: The rules actually HELP you find the fight. The other rules curtail lame and distasteful actions that one side might do to the other. And finally, the rules help score who wins a setup.
No, there aren't "too many rules" -- but rather there are too many folks that have tried to bend the rules to the point the rules had to be refined, reworded, or reworked. It means we're dealing with smart folks, if this happens, but it also means they have to use their smarts inside a set of limitations for the best results for everyone.
If you have issues with how a CO plans, take it up with them. It changes every week, and you cannot blame one FSO's lack of planning on the next FSO's CO.
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I don't fly much FSO's or actually haven't flown many. However, that last FSO was great! I was in spit something or another. Not the best plane but it took care of a Ki84, Nik, and 3 Ki67s.
We have tiny squad this time. Can we have 262s?
What were you in last frame Imoutfishin?
One frame our squad received ju87s. We laughed it off and told our CO, We who are about to die Salute you. You know that was still fun. I had the most incredible crash in that game. Bounced of the enemy runway struck a building and slid into a barn and never died. Should have filmed it.
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Take an issue with anything I might say that's why we have a forum after all.
The FSO in a shadow of what it once was.
Yes the numbers seem great but the feel or the general take on the experiance has been greatly deminished as a whole. The so called "noob's" seem to fill the bill as far as the numbers go but this does not correct the overall field of play during an FSO.
Give me a guy that flew two years ago that claims FSO's are the same as they once were... I just might take his word but that will not happen. The game has changed during this time.
There are a ton of you guy's out there who flew two years ago but you better have CiC'ed a frame before you pony up:) So please don't post unless you have as it just would not matter over all.
Again take it at face value please. It's a personal evaluation and for the few that can compaire the FSO of the past & now are qualified to judge.
MGD
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Squads should be guaranteed to get their first plane choice in at least 1 of the frames.
Scenarios MUST be balanced. 3-5 fight areas that are sufficiently spread out to avoid the 'Rolling Horde' CIC tactic. Spreading out the fight areas also avoids the 'find closest base and vulch ' behavior. I would even suggest requiring the CIC's to assign the same number of pilots to each fight to avoid large number imbalances. To die by Horde is no fun. FSO should be about execution, not which CIC can play the numbers game better. If it is a offensive/defensive scenario (8th AF) I suggest 60/40 split.
2 lives for all Bombers and Attack planes. If you are assigned a bomb to carry, you get another plane. FSO sacrifices half of its player base so the other half can think they are heros. We ask a lot of a player to participate in FSO, let's not reward them by kicking them out after getting shot down early. Give the 'target' planes reason to show up.
Ask for CIC volunteers before assigning.
Move the time forward an hour to 10pm EST. I'm old and can't stay up past midnight anymore. Seriously, Making FSO primetime for all US timezones will help its popularity. (no complaints from Guam!)
I think these ideas will erase many grumbles. The fact that many established FSO squads are belly aching or just going away says its time to focus on what makes FSO a success.
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Let's see here if I understand, you cannot say anything unless you cic'd an fso. Doesn't that eliminate about 90% of the participants! Plus a new rule is trying to be introduced. I saw this one coming. It's an attempt to take away the voice of many. You ever think that those 90% are much like your customers? Without them there is no FSO period.
Frankly, if you want a cic forum then perhaps you should ask for one or create one in some other venue. As this one is full open for discussion. Beware of that tactic, you will kill what so many have worked hard to build and promote. How? By building mistrust and having people second guess what's going on.
Im sure there are avenues for discussion on what has changed. I like what virage has to say. He's chosen the path of problem solving.
In my humble opinion the FSOs seem to be going gang busters. Man there was a lot of action in the last FSO I was in. It seemed good for everyone I was near.
At first I thought this thread was lame. Now I don't think so at all. I believe that this discussion really needed to take place in the open.
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It's hard for CiC's to give everyone their plane choice but it should be discussed between the Squad CO's and the CiC of the frame.
I CiC'd a frame & the week leading up to the Friday I noticed ALOT of poor communication among the squads that I was assigning rides to. I think I only heard from & had help from 3 CO's.
The only problem that I see w/ the past FSO's [& I have discussed this on the FSO forum already] was... Communication.
I was not in FSO two years ago but I see your point MGD & I will take your word for it. I think some squads (mine included) should be evaluated before attending FSO. My squad has teamed up w/ other FSO squads due to the CiC orders & the 50% of them have been AWESOM while the others need to either Show up, Follow the orders, or Communicate.
I believe discussing this is a healthy thing to do & I really think we can get better as a whole.
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Same with the frame I CIC'd. I think I was able to give the preference to about 90% of requests.
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The CiC issue is a big one. With three CiC's for every FSO there is a great loss of tactical responsibility. We seem to have adopted the "leave the next guy" the problems way of thinking.
If thats the way we are going that's cool we can play it frame to frame but that delete's the basis the FSO was based on.
As and end result the the FSO has been cheapened by that much more.
We need an upgrade in game play to match the current player base. & yes I can explain :)
MGD
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Originally posted by Imoutfishing
Take an issue with anything I might say that's why we have a forum after all.
The FSO in a shadow of what it once was.
Yes the numbers seem great but the feel or the general take on the experiance has been greatly deminished as a whole. The so called "noob's" seem to fill the bill as far as the numbers go but this does not correct the overall field of play during an FSO.
Give me a guy that flew two years ago that claims FSO's are the same as they once were... I just might take his word but that will not happen. The game has changed during this time.
There are a ton of you guy's out there who flew two years ago but you better have CiC'ed a frame before you pony up:) So please don't post unless you have as it just would not matter over all.
Again take it at face value please. It's a personal evaluation and for the few that can compaire the FSO of the past & now are qualified to judge.
MGD
I flew FSO when I was in the AK's (a few yrs ago) and I fly them when I can now. I've been here since Beta...FSO is just fine. Now from what I can see your just spewing some venom for some reason...is it maybe that your one of the guys who liked to "Game the game"? I'm not trying to be confrontational but the only rule changes I have ssen are designed to reign in CiC's who got too "cute" and violated the intent of the design.
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Originally posted by Virage
Squads should be guaranteed to get their first plane choice in at least 1 of the frames.
Scenarios MUST be balanced. 3-5 fight areas that are sufficiently spread out to avoid the 'Rolling Horde' CIC tactic. Spreading out the fight areas also avoids the 'find closest base and vulch ' behavior. I would even suggest requiring the CIC's to assign the same number of pilots to each fight to avoid large number imbalances. To die by Horde is no fun. FSO should be about execution, not which CIC can play the numbers game better. If it is a offensive/defensive scenario (8th AF) I suggest 60/40 split.
2 lives for all Bombers and Attack planes. If you are assigned a bomb to carry, you get another plane. FSO sacrifices half of its player base so the other half can think they are heros. We ask a lot of a player to participate in FSO, let's not reward them by kicking them out after getting shot down early. Give the 'target' planes reason to show up.
Ask for CIC volunteers before assigning.
Move the time forward an hour to 10pm EST. I'm old and can't stay up past midnight anymore. Seriously, Making FSO primetime for all US timezones will help its popularity. (no complaints from Guam!)
I think these ideas will erase many grumbles. The fact that many established FSO squads are belly aching or just going away says its time to focus on what makes FSO a success.
My 1st frame "back" we had B5N's and our escort got overwelmed. The opposing strike force pickled its ords and bounced us in their TBM's. We still got thru and sunk the cruiser and a good part of the escort (no CV in task group). Had a blast, was in a burning B5N with about zero chance of living long enough for a proper drop so had to "lob bomb" and caught just enugh of the cruiser to sink her (had been hit multiple times already). Ask the guys from VT-8 about plane choice and second lives. The "target planes" have just as much reason to show up as anyone else. In fact the target planes normally decide the outcome and the battle is between both sides "hero's" and the ability of the target to get the mail home.
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Yeah, I'm getting old too. move that up a notch to around 10pm.
Thanks for bringing that up Virage.
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Originally posted by humble
I flew FSO when I was in the AK's (a few yrs ago) and I fly them when I can now. I've been here since Beta...FSO is just fine. Now from what I can see your just spewing some venom for some reason...is it maybe that your one of the guys who liked to "Game the game"? I'm not trying to be confrontational but the only rule changes I have seen are designed to reign in CiC's who got too "cute" and violated the intent of the design.
Humble..... sry, just using your post to to help in framing my comment, not using it for a rebuttal item ;)
I don't know about that.......... it can be interpreted in many different ways on the current rules or previous ones before that, depending on how you veiw them and from what angle of perspective.
From a planning standpoint, a few of them complicate things, on the other hand it may make some factors easier for those that more simply in the strategic lines of thought. I have posted some concerns in the past on a few items, but will leave that thought train out of my post for this reply.
Either way, I remember that most "bending" came in the mistyping/miscommunication or omiting items in the inital setup and/or orders, I could be wrong. Every FSO I have flown in (about 90% I'd say) can be bent/twisted in one way or the other. In the past it was mainly banked for the side CIC's and mission planners stay within the spirit of the game. But as with all aspects of AH, time changes. It is extremely hard to keep the so called "MA mentality" out of all aspects of AH. As all have noticed the continual threads in the general forum about this subject, game play has changed throughout all areas of Aces High and so has the play mentality.
Whether some for good and/or some for bad, it has changed. I'm not saying in has went downhill, but I can at least conceed that from MGD's standpoint of a period of time absence that he would see a more drastic change. Taking a moment and looking from outside the box, I will say that he makes a few good points. As severe as he has seemed to state, I don't think so, but things have changed some.
It would be like seeing someone you don't see every day after 2 years..... you would notice a more drastic change than someone that was there every day. Good or bad?, maybe neither...... everyone makes there own call on that.
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06-28-2001
This is when TOD, now FSO, was designed. On this particular date, the subject of a CO serving one week was solidified for the reasons of time. It was too much work for a single CO to run a solid 3 weeks of orders. It was well discussed, and a very significant part of the original design.
The CiC issue is a big one. With three CiC's for every FSO there is a great loss of tactical responsibility. We seem to have adopted the "leave the next guy" the problems way of thinking.
If thats the way we are going that's cool we can play it frame to frame but that delete's the basis the FSO was based on.
As and end result the the FSO has been cheapened by that much more.
Based on the Facts of what I wrote, I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion? We seem to have adopted what? If that's the way we are going? That's the way it's been from the onset. How can it be cheapened that much more by doing it the way it's always been done, for the past 6 1/2 years?
You really need to check your facts before you try and create an issue that doesn't exist.
The only reason I opted to chime in here publicly is that some people might take you seriously, and you are making some awful mistakes here MGD. Of all people, being a former CM and having access to all the history of the event, I am stunned beyond belief at some of the wholly incorrect assessments you are presenting.
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Kaz...
I dont disagree that everything changes or that FSO is static, however from my view the change has been fairly minimal. Now that might come from the fact that both the AK's and USMC/71 are well organized and normally have consistant turn out...so that might insulate me from changes more obvious to others. To me its always been the reality that sometimes your the Bat but others your stuck being the ball. Over time it all seems to even out and on those occasions you draw the short straw and slog thru the satisfaction is the greatest...
BTW hope all is well with everyone over in the land of pink fairy dust (WoW):)
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Originally posted by humble
My 1st frame "back" we had B5N's and our escort got overwelmed. The opposing strike force pickled its ords and bounced us in their TBM's. We still got thru and sunk the cruiser and a good part of the escort (no CV in task group). Had a blast, was in a burning B5N with about zero chance of living long enough for a proper drop so had to "lob bomb" and caught just enugh of the cruiser to sink her (had been hit multiple times already). Ask the guys from VT-8 about plane choice and second lives. The "target planes" have just as much reason to show up as anyone else. In fact the target planes normally decide the outcome and the battle is between both sides "hero's" and the ability of the target to get the mail home.
That one brings back memories Snaphook. I will remember that FSO for a long time. Great job on that CV. To get the job done even when everything falls apart is part of what makes FSO so fun. You never know what to expect.
I think the rules are carefully cosicered to make sure they don't have a straight jacket effect, yet preserve the freedom and enjoyment that people have come to expect from FSO. I can easily suggest that without the addition of any new rules the FSO experience would be dramatically different than we have nostalgically remembered it, and far different than what it currently is considering how much the game environment and community has changed overall.
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Was certainly an "interesting" welcome back...
I also think it pointed out some of the issues the CM's deal with. Going from memory (and not intending to reopen any "issues") the opposing GIC (guy in charge) for that particular tasked order decided to pickle his ords and attack the B5N's even though he had both a fighter escort with him and there was another group tasked to protect the enemy "fleet". So he effected his sides mission goals, the flight tasked with defending that mission and his own sides defensive CAP. I think since he was mixed in with us the enemy CAP split between us and shiftys group (our escort). So while it hurt us loss wise it created a situation where the 880 guys had 3 enemy flights of fighters tied up in the confusion with not one really tasked on us since 1/2 of us were burning anyway. His reasoningwas he had been "discovered" and it was useless to slog on to target??
I was tweaked at the time since I didnt think the penalties were in place. IRL the loss of the task group would have been a serious blow, combined with the missed chance to strike a counterblow it should have created a "win" for us right there on that aspect of the score. The points for the loss of most of our planes and shiftys offeset our score on the TG and since they suffered few losses they actually "won" our little fracus even though they totally aborted there mission.
The ability you and sled had to manage the mission, make good choices among universally bad options at least let us complete the mission and let a few of us live to tell the tail. My biggest issue is that good leadership like that isnt always rewarded. I think that ideally you'd have a "Score modifier" of some type that acts as an equalizer. The more success the mission has the less damage score the unit suffers for losses. At the same time a failed attack inflated the opposing damage score. After all "acceptable losses" are often viewed in relation to tangible gains. So in that scenario our success should have negated much of thier score and their failure to press any attack should have magnified our score for the losses they did suffer...
This is the type of "problem" thats led to the various changes (from my understanding). Its simply guys with a MA attitude in FSO (and in that sense I agree with MGD)...but dont blame the rules for that blame the squad CO's that allow it...
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See Rule #5
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Daddog, show the man.
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The below quote is from a thread I started in the private CM BB on 6/23/01 that was the rough draft of FSO. The quote below is from fd ski who was very involved in the design of FSO and in that thread he wrote…
I'm fine with all of them except number 3.
CO'ing an event, even with missions and such, is an extreemly tasking execise and leads people to burn out quickly. it turns into 3 weeks of writing e-mails and pouring over the plans and targets.
From my S3 exeperiance, i would stronly recommend doing "one per week" CO as it will lead to much more fun for COs without killing their free time for more then a week.
Other then that, it looks good.
The following CM’s participated in this particular thread.
daddog
ghosth
banana
fd ski
Rojo
Rocket
In this lengthy thread above (of which I have only posted a small part) fd ski and I were going back and forth about my FSO design. One of the points I conceded to his experience in S3’s was about the same CiC’s running three frames in a row. It is something I wanted, but fd ski did not agree with. We (the CM’s) decided on having a different CiC for each frame due to fd skis experience in that matter. It was a good decision 6 ½ years ago and still is.
Now to quote you MGD.
The CiC issue is a big one. With three CiC's for every FSO there is a great loss of tactical responsibility. We seem to have adopted the "leave the next guy" the problems way of thinking.
If thats the way we are going that's cool we can play it frame to frame but that delete's the basis the FSO was based on.
As and end result the the FSO has been cheapened by that much more.
As everyone can see above your conceptions and or statements of what FSO is based on are completely false. From the beginning we adopted to have a different CiC every frame.
Your perception that we have adopted “leave it to the next guy” is also false. CM’s do not adopt attitudes that players or C.O.’s have. On the whole C.O.’s have been very responsible over the years and that has been a large part of the FSO success.
MGD you also said. Give me a guy that flew two years ago that claims FSO's are the same as they once were... I just might take his word but that will not happen. The game has changed during this time.
There are a ton of you guy's out there who flew two years ago but you better have CiC'ed a frame before you pony up :) So please don't post unless you have as it just would not matter over all.
Not that you will take me at my word, but it would be silly to say that FSO has not changed. As a matter of fact it has changed an for the better IMHO. I think I can safely say that I have had my fingers on the pulse of this event more than any other.
I might add that anyone who has flown in FSO is welcome to post their thoughts or respond to anyone who does. You don’t have to be a CiC to have valid opinions. FSO is better than it was years ago. Sure we make mistakes, have poor designs, but if I have anything to do with it, it will continue to grow and change for the better.
Lastly you said MGD Again take it at face value please. It's a personal evaluation and for the few that can compaire the FSO of the past & now are qualified to judge.
I will consider myself one of the few since you have of yourself, though I am not sure why since you had nothing to do with its design. Your welcome to your personal evaluations, but your twisting of facts and out right false statements are not welcome. Feel free to break out your crayola and draw some angry faces, but I will be here to correct your work so the community is not deceived.
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Originally posted by humble
Was certainly an "interesting" welcome back...
I also think it pointed out some of the issues the CM's deal with. Going from memory (and not intending to reopen any "issues") the opposing GIC (guy in charge) for that particular tasked order decided to pickle his ords and attack the B5N's even though he had both a fighter escort with him and there was another group tasked to protect the enemy "fleet".
Snaphook, you don't want to open up any old wounds do ya.;)
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I think Daddog pretty much closed this one out, in a good way.