Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: stifor187 on January 13, 2008, 04:32:27 PM
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First im a major noob so far and am only in my first week.Is flap use really important in a dog fight?
Mainly asking bout the 2 planes i fly most the spit16 and pony.
any advice welcome:aok
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yes.
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Spit 16... not really.
P51... vital.
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Flaps are very important when turn fighting. The Spit you really don't need them unless you are up against another spit. The pony in the other hand needs flaps for good turning. The Pony's flaps are outstanding because you can fly with 1 notch of flaps out up to 400mph.
#S#
Banshee7
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Once you've got the basics of flight down, I would strongly recommend flying a bird which relies on flaps more heavily... for example the F4U or p-38 but be prepared to die... A LOT.
**Edit** Perhaps relies heavily is the wrong phrase to use but you know what I mean.
I been playing this game over 18 months now (I think) and I still don't totally "get" flaps. It will take some time :)
Good Luck with it
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Equally important, though in some planes more than others, is throttle management and rudder usage. Don't forget about those.:aok
Perhaps try the F6F. Really taught me a lot about flaps, throttle, and rudder (not saying I'm an expert by any means though). That plane will surprise you.
donkey
EDIT: I started out with the pony when I first joined, and trust me, it's not the best suited plane for mixing it up. It's only real advantages are speed and views, but I think that really helped me a lot, and can help you to if you stick with it. You MUST use flaps, rudder, and throttle in the pony when in a 1v1 dogfight (if you're not just bnzing). If you can knife fight in a pony just about everything else will be a walk in the park. Makes the transition to other planes so much easier as they seem like their in a different class compared to the pony in close up dogfights, because for the most part, they are.
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The issue with rudder is that most of the plane set has poor rudder authority except at very low airspeeds. Using rudder can also work against you in the lufberry. There's some maneuvers (slips, skids, etc) that can be useful, but most aircraft you have to be fairly slow for it to really make an impact.
The F4Us is the most noteworthy exception to this rule, so effective rudder use is more important to the Hog than most other ships in the plane set.
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yeah taking off interduced me to my rudder very quick!just about got the basics of it now.
gonna have to set my flap keys and start working them next time up.
I have stalled a few times in high alt fights with things degradeing into a low speed turning fight.Its one of the reasons i like the pony it seems to almost automaticly pull it self out of a spin.
but looking back me falling like a rock is om own fault for loseing all my E in a turn fight without useing flaps.:aok
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You don't really want to turn fight at all in a P-51 unless your up against another P-51 or some manner of Fw190.
The world is a 3D place; keep maneuvering by using all dimensions. Where the P-51 shines is its E retention in zooms and turning won't make any use of it.
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I have had a blast a few times trying to learn to turn fight in a pony. I know it is difficult, and that I am at a disadvantage, but I found that I could do some pretty cool things by using throwing down the flaps a notch of five, and manipulating the throttle and rudder in addition to more conventional turns.
I have died many times doing this, but I think it has made me a little better at fighting in situations outside the strength of the P-51.
I would strongly suggest learning to use the flaps and throttle to learn to turn anything better. Not only is this a 3d environment, but using speed - learning to keep it and to bleed it - gives you another weapon to survive and even turn a disadvantage into an advantage.
I am definitely new here, but it has been a blast learning by reading here and watching those in the MA - especially all of you rotten b@$t@rd$ who keep killing me!
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The most type's of planes you will need flaps for are the American planes. The P51 and the P47 can have one notch of flaps till 40mph. The other American planes such as the F4u's,F6F(Fm2/f4f),P38's their flaps deploy at a lower speed and for the most part allow the plane to turn better.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
You don't really want to turn fight at all in a P-51 unless your up against another P-51 or some manner of Fw190.
:huh
Pony is a great turnfighter!
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*double
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Originally posted by SkyRock
:huh
Pony is a great turnfighter!
YOU SIR are correct!:aok
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I fly a 38 and I flap like crazy.... boy are my arms tired.
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You almost never need flaps in a Spit. Maybe 1-2% of engagements.
I agree with the recommendation to try the F6F if you want to learn flap usage. It's a good plane without them and exceptional with them. Take off without ord and 50-75% fuel depending on how far you're going. Flaps engage one notch every 25 mph starting at 250 mph.
The Ki-84 is also a good, flap-dependent bird to learn with.
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Although I didn't end up winning this 1vs1. I actually got into great fight with KI-84; I scored some good hits but finally end up kissing trees. I didn't realized it at the time but I actually had flaps fully down. How I didn't stall completely is odd. I wouldn't suggest full flaps down though
I been playing for while and I'm still learning the pony
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
You almost never need flaps in a Spit. Maybe 1-2% of engagements.
I agree with the recommendation to try the F6F if you want to learn flap usage. It's a good plane without them and exceptional with them. Take off without ord and 50-75% fuel depending on how far you're going. Flaps engage one notch every 25 mph starting at 250 mph.
The Ki-84 is also a good, flap-dependent bird to learn with.
I agree with everything you said with the exception of the Spit.
I use to use my flaps a lot on the Spit (1 notch). The quicker I could get around on my target ... the quicker it died, and when flying a Spit V ... you want to kill quickly and move on to attack or evade the next attacker.
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yes flaps are important...just as much as the wing when in a fight
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Well the Spit only has 1 notch.
Skyrock,
And the P-51 is great at turning, yes at high sped. Arguably, nothing turns better above 300 mph. But where most turn fights occur, especially figths with participants who are still learning, the P-51's not going to do much at all in the turn fight.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
You almost never need flaps in a Spit.
Where do these fellas come up with this nonsense? Why give advice when you do not have a clue?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Where do these fellas come up with this nonsense? Why give advice when you do not have a clue?:rolleyes:
Bahahhahaha, you beat me to it. Spit with no flaps will get spanked by almost everything (given the pilot is not one of the experts above :lol )
Go to the TA and ask one of the trainers. At list they know what they are talking about and they can show you how to do it
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Skyrock,
And the P-51 is great at turning, yes at high sped. Arguably, nothing turns better above 300 mph. But where most turn fights occur, especially figths with participants who are still learning, the P-51's not going to do much at all in the turn fight.
Tell that to all the Niki's and LAs ive killed turn fighting my Pony
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Thank you for all the advice.:aok much better than i hoped for with such a noob question.
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We all had to start somewhere:)
#S#
Banshee7
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Originally posted by Banshee7
Tell that to all the Niki's and LAs ive killed turn fighting my Pony
If a N1K2 was out turned at medium to slow speeds by a P-51, then you ran into what was probably one of the crappiest players ever to take control of a N1K2 in game.
ack-ack
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I started in a Mustang then went to the Corsair then to the 38. All of them my RL favorite aircraft.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If a N1K2 was out turned at medium to slow speeds by a P-51, then you ran into what was probably one of the crappiest players ever to take control of a N1K2 in game.
ack-ack
It was tuk151 (same sortie i owned MaX's Typhoon:D )
#S#
Banshee7
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Originally posted by Shuffler
I started in a Mustang then went to the Corsair then to the 38. All of them my RL favorite aircraft.
Same here...those are my 3 main planes and my fav's.
#S#
Banshee7
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quote:
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
You almost never need flaps in a Spit.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Where do these fellas come up with this nonsense? Why give advice when you do not have a clue?:rolleyes:
FYI: From Soda's Aircraft Evaluations writeup on the Spit XVI
"Donft use flaps, they are really only for landing and the drag they produce is a real disadvantage. "
Personally, I use flaps as needed when I fly the Spit, but I rarely fly the Spit XVI
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Where do these fellas come up with this nonsense? Why give advice when you do not have a clue?:rolleyes:
I've been flying Spits for almost 11 years from AW to AHII. I almost never have to use flaps (1-2% of the time), even at flap speeds (~160 mph or lower). The drag ceated by the single stage flaps just isn't worth it most of the time.
I can out-turn most planes without them and for those I can't I can use the climbing ability, acceleration or another of the Spits qualities to beat them.
Throttle management is much more useful in a Spit than flaps IMO.
There are rare occasions where you need them but if you know how to push deep into the stall horn in a Spit it's not very often.
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if its got flaps use em. being a noob you will learn when and when not to use them. its one of those things that cant be taught or told how. Learn by doing.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Skyrock,
And the P-51 is great at turning, yes at high sped. Arguably, nothing turns better above 300 mph.
The hog out turns it at 300mph+, no arguments about it!
Originally posted by SgtPappy
the P-51's not going to do much at all in the turn fight.
Wrong!:aok
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I've been flying Spits for almost 11 years from AW to AHII. I almost never have to use flaps (1-2% of the time), even at flap speeds (~160 mph or lower).
Throttle management is much more useful in a Spit than flaps IMO.
These are two comments that let me know you don't know beans about how to fly one in a fight.....that is unless you're BnZing in it! LMAO!:rofl
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Originally posted by Urthona
quote:
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
You almost never need flaps in a Spit.
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FYI: From Soda's Aircraft Evaluations writeup on the Spit XVI
"Donft use flaps, they are really only for landing and the drag they produce is a real disadvantage. "
Soda would get spanked to high heaven and back by any one of my spit flying friends! His advice should be taken with a grain of salt on this issue. The 16 should be fought with it's advantages, one of the greatest advantage it has is that last second burst of vertical from the "one notch" flaps and wep!
If you want to own in spits, it's wep and flaps all the way!:aok
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I've been flying Spits for almost 11 years from AW to AHII. I almost never have to use flaps (1-2% of the time), even at flap speeds (~160 mph or lower). The drag ceated by the single stage flaps just isn't worth it most of the time.
I can out-turn most planes without them and for those I can't I can use the climbing ability, acceleration or another of the Spits qualities to beat them.
Throttle management is much more useful in a Spit than flaps IMO.
There are rare occasions where you need them but if you know how to push deep into the stall horn in a Spit it's not very often.
Well ... don't get me wrong here, but the night that you, in a Spit V, and me in a F6F ... if you had used flaps ... the outcome might have been different.
I still would recommend using flaps in any Spit, under the right circumstances, against particular airplanes.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Well ... don't get me wrong here, but the night that you, in a Spit V, and me in a F6F ... if you had used flaps... the outcome might have been different.
That night I was still out-turning you. In fact, you extended out of guns range twice to re-set the fight and the Spit V just couldn't stay with you when you did.
Maybe I might have gotten inside you sooner but I would have been in worse shape trying to stay with your extension, which I can only assume would have been sooner.
The reason I lost is because I augered in a deep stall near the end.
That was a fun fight but I doubt the outcome would have been significantly different had I used my flaps.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
If you want to own in spits, it's wep and flaps all the way!:aok
I totally agree.
When flying the spit16 I always use the flaps, especially when the enemy is close and I cannot out run them or outclimb them in a straight line. The manuever I use flaps with the most is a steep spiral climb...works quite well. Usually the enemy is around 200 behind me, but the angle and steepness of the turn prevents a shot. Adding flaps while performing this enhances the results. Once separation occurs I flip over and dive on the enemy. .:aok
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I still would recommend using flaps in any Spit, under the right circumstances, against particular airplanes.
The other night another player and I were dueling in Spitfire Mk IXs and got into a rolling scissor on the deck. The other guy was trying in vain to get me to over shoot on the scissors but couldn't do it. I just kept tucked nicely on his 6 position until I deemed the lesson over and finally put a burst on his tail. He asked me how I kept from overshooting and I told him that when I would roll over the top during the rolling scissors, I would deploy the flaps and then raise them on the downside of the roll. By doing this, I was able to stay on the 6 position and not over shoot.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The other night another player and I were dueling in Spitfire Mk IXs and got into a rolling scissor on the deck. The other guy was trying in vain to get me to over shoot on the scissors but couldn't do it. I just kept tucked nicely on his 6 position until I deemed the lesson over and finally put a burst on his tail. He asked me how I kept from overshooting and I told him that when I would roll over the top during the rolling scissors, I would deploy the flaps and then raise them on the downside of the roll. By doing this, I was able to stay on the 6 position and not over shoot.
ack-ack
Would you do that in a 38 given the same situation?
donkey
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Yes.
ack-ack
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Thank you.
donkey
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Where do these fellas come up with this nonsense? Why give advice when you do not have a clue?:rolleyes:
these are the same fellas that have no clue whats going on in a fight...theyre the ones that hit trees ram and ho their way out
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what are flaps?
(from 190 pilot)
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Originally posted by BiPoLaR
these are the same fellas that have no clue whats going on in a fight...theyre the ones that hit trees ram and ho their way out
OK. That's laughable.
I didn't say don't ever use flaps but really, why use them unless you need them? If you can stay inside someone without using flaps why dump them and give up more E?
BTW, was it ack-ack following the scissors? You could have done the same thing by just throttling back slightly or by increasing the arc of your roll.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
BTW, was it ack-ack following the scissors? You could have done the same thing by just throttling back slightly or by increasing the arc of your roll.
I could have done it that way but it would have resulted in the fight lasting longer than it would have which then increases the chances of my losing. Had I done what you suggested, it would have resulted in a "neutral state" (i.e. we would have been canopy to canopy in our rolls, neither one of us gaining the advantage or disadvantage) and mostly likely one of us would have wobbled in due to our low (near stall) speed.
If we were fighting and in the same situation and you tried what you described in a rolling scissors and I used my flaps like I described, you would have lost as well.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by dedalos
Bahahhahaha, you beat me to it. Spit with no flaps will get spanked by almost everything (given the pilot is not one of the experts above :lol )
Go to the TA and ask one of the trainers. At list they know what they are talking about and they can show you how to do it
Interesting in that it's full flaps or no flaps in a Spit. Historically I don't recall ever seeing a Spit pilot for real ever talk about using flaps in combat.
But they sure do get used in our cartoon Spits :)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I could have done it that way but it would have resulted in the fight lasting longer than it would have which then increases the chances of my losing. Had I done what you suggested, it would have resulted in a "neutral state" (i.e. we would have been canopy to canopy in our rolls, neither one of us gaining the advantage or disadvantage) and mostly likely one of us would have wobbled in due to our low (near stall) speed.
If we were fighting and in the same situation and you tried what you described in a rolling scissors and I used my flaps like I described, you would have lost as well.
ack-ack
OK. I see. I always envision a rolling scissor happening at somewhat higher speeds, not when you're already wobbling near stall.
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Flaps are extremely important in all planes...especially in a spit...
They are of utmost importance in e-fighting...roping...and scissoring as well as winging over on someone...
They also are a great help in taking off when you dont have enough runway to build up the right speed/weight ratio (i.e. carrier takeoffs with ordinance)
The spit is actually a great plane to learn proper flap use because there is only one notch..if you are truly new then there isnt a much better plane to learn in then a spitV...unfortunately its slow as can be so look for furball sitautions