Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dadano on January 15, 2008, 12:52:46 PM
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I'm interested in procuring a PPL. I'm thinking of going through these guys (http://www.ataofpugetsound.com/page/page/4811695.htm).
What is the going rate for instruction hourly where you are at?
I'm assuming you have to rent the plane and buy the gas as well. What kind of number am I looking at for an hour of instructed flight time?
Thanks.
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I rent planes based on an hourly basis. All hourly costs include full fuel. Remember in most instances instruction is compounded on top of the hourly fee. I live in Omaha, NE and fly out of Council Bluffs, IA.
Here are the hourly rates from Advanced Air Council Bluffs:
Cessna 150: $67/hour
Cessna 172: ranges from $73 to $106/hour (rates include the age of the aircraft, as well as the equipment in the aircraft i.e. gps, autopilot, etc.)
I do not have the information for the rates for private pilot instruction. However, the rates for instrument instruction is $33/hour. An educated guess would put private pilot instruction at around $25/hour. So for an hour of instruction with airplane would cost around $110-$140...depending on the aircraft. In order for you to get your license, Part 61, you will probably log anywhere from 40-70 hours.
Also, you may want to look into whether Part 61 or Part 141 training is suited for you. Part 61 and 141 all lead to a private pilot license, they just take a little different path to get to the same result. In short, Part 61 requires more flight time, but involves a lot less paperwork. Part 141 requires less flight time, but is a lot more strict about logging ground instruction and documenting other aspects. Part 141 involves a series of stage checks. It is somewhat complicated and confusing, so I'll stop there. Wherever you train be sure to inquire about part 61 and 141 training.
Good luck, keep us updated on your progress.
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In Santa Monica (roughly equivalent to Boeing field) I paid $50 an hour for a CFI. In Creswell (roughly equivalent to Harvey) I paid $30 an hour for a CFI. The numbers TwentyFo quoted are very very reasonable.
...and as such, you should expect higher pretty much anywhere else.
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Amazing how cheap fixed wing is. When I was doing my Helicopter PPL rates for H300 solo $300 and duel $360 (NZD) per hour. H500 was $650 (NZD) and I think the Jet Ranger was near $800 (NZD).
And that was back in the mid 90's hate to think what the rates are now. Anyway the price you pay to for the hotness. :D
...-Gixer
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Hotness??? With a big fan over your head?? :p
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It really all depends on where you go, who you use and what you are flying.
In my opinion, you don't need to go fancy, nor do I think you should for your PPL. People will try and sell you on a Garmin 430+ or dare I say a full G1000 set up, but its just not necessary IMO. You will be paying out of your arse for it. K.I.S.S. An Acronym you will learn to love in aviation. Keep It Simple Stupid.
With the cost of fuel prices right now, I would look for a place renting block hours at a wet rate. It will be the most cost effective.
In regards to instructor rates, it's really hard to answer. You could have a 15+ year master CFI charging $60/hour, or a wet ticket cfi charging $25/hour. The best thing you can do is INTERVIEW both of them, and see who better suits YOU. A big reason people end up paying a lot more money than they expected during flight training is because they pick a CFI that they aren't compatible with.
goodluck, and theres a good amount of pilots on this board to give you information.
PM me if you need any books. I was planning on putting all of mine on EBAY, but if you may need some, I will give you first dibs.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Amazing how cheap fixed wing is. When I was doing my Helicopter PPL rates for H300 solo $300 and duel $360 (NZD) per hour. H500 was $650 (NZD) and I think the Jet Ranger was near $800 (NZD).
And that was back in the mid 90's hate to think what the rates are now. Anyway the price you pay to for the hotness. :D
...-Gixer
Were all the helicopters you trained on turbine?
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Huey rates in AZ....
http://www.universalheli.com/Training.asp#Commercial
Fixed Wing rates in AZ....
http://www.westwindaviation.com/Professional%20Pricing.htm
-or-
Just make your own
(http://biglizards.net/Graphics/ForegroundPix/BatWingsForSpecialForces.jpg)
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Originally posted by TwentyFo
Were all the helicopters you trained on turbine?
I wish! Though there were a couple rich sorts that did all their training in a H500 and then on to BK117's :cry
I did all my PPL hours in H300, I had to pay for 5 hours Duel in the H500 to get my type rating, think in total including turbine theory,hours and check flight H500 cost me about 5k. After that I just scabed free hours where ever and how ever I could for either ratings, which meant travelling around the country a bit.
This was all paid for by living with folks,running around on a 400cc motorbike and working 3 jobs for almost 2 years. My dates use to be cheap in those days. :lol
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Hotness??? With a big fan over your head?? :p
And nearly 500hp behind your back :D
Other then bikes most fun I've ever had.
...-Gixer
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Thanks for the input guys. That local outfit does give a 10% discount for blocked hours, so that's looking good. Cav, as soon as I know what texts I need I'll get at you via PM. Will keep you gents posted. Thanks again.
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Dadano,
All the best, only bit advice I'd have is that if your looking at going commerical try and train with an outfit that also does commercial charter work etc. And has a strong reputation for putting students through to C-CAT,ATPL and eventually commerical work.
Good Luck!
...-Gixe
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Dadano, suggestion: Put 5 or so hours under your belt with this outfit first to make sure you like how they do stuff. If you buy a 10 hour block and THEN find out that they're crap on ice, then you either lose a thousand bucks or have to suffer through 10 crappy hours with an organization you don't like. The extra few bucks an hour in the beginning might be a good investment, I've heard of folks being burned by blocks because they charged in.
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Originally posted by Dadano
Thanks for the input guys. That local outfit does give a 10% discount for blocked hours, so that's looking good. Cav, as soon as I know what texts I need I'll get at you via PM. Will keep you gents posted. Thanks again.
Dano, good luck with this project of yours. Don't give up and don't run out of money!
I did and never got back into it. I've not had the financial support for this luxery ever since. I stopped after barely reaching 10 hours flying. Took a few ground school courses for a few weeks. Ah now I remember, life got too busy as well and taking a long break really was my first downfall.
I flew twice a week. Once on Sundays and once on Wednesdays. I could only afford to do it twice a week. Only 3 or 4 days between flights was working for me. My instructor wasn't the right person for me, as I felt very uncomfortable with him. I also think he wasn't very good at "teach", but he did seem to know his stuff. That company also fired a few individuals for reports of missing money. They always smilied and joked whenever I'd play them...:noid
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Dano,
Most important thing - DON'T run out of money or think you can do it on the cheap. With todays prices, budget $10,000 for getting through the checkride. Plan on 60-70 hours in the plane at around $160 per hour including the instructor.
I disagree with others regarding finding WET rates - at $5 per gallon, there is no reason to be motoring along at full blast. If you find a dry rate, you pay for what you use and you gas up where it is less expensive.
For the Bay Area, we look at around $60-70 per hour for the instructor, $90 for the aircraft + buying gas wherever you can that is cheap. Then again, this isn't the cheapest area of the country, but then neither is Seattle.
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Originally posted by TwentyFo
Cessna 150: $67/hour
Cessna 172: ranges from $73 to $106/hour (rates include the age of the aircraft, as well as the equipment in the aircraft i.e. gps, autopilot, etc.)
... So for an hour of instruction with airplane would cost around $110-$140...
It's the same around here.
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+1 on finding a good dry rental rate. When I instructed in multiengine airplanes I had the option to do the block hours wet (fuel included) or dry. Myself and only one other instructor were on the insurance for the airplane, which left us taking turns for a week or 2 at a time giving instruction.
I worked out a dry rental rate with the airplanes owner, paid for the fuel myself on my own credit card and billed the student a flat rate ($175/hr) which included my time and fuel. My rate, which to the end user was "wet" was almost $50/hr cheaper than anyone else within 100miles. I was able to save the money by setting up accounts at several airports and FBOs. When we went on cross country trips for timebuilding or stopped for lunch/fuel during a day of lessons I would use those airports as fuel stops. When I averaged out my first 250 hours of using that method I pocketed something along the lines of $48.50/hr+/- for flight time. That's with me charging $50/hr less than any of the other flight schools...I had a good business going. I was charging $30/hr for ground instruction using very lax timekeeping methods (which benefitted the student)
With fuel prices being what they are today (Fuel back then could still be had for around $2/gallon) finding a good deal on fuel and having a fair dry rate on an airplane sounds like the way to go.
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Very entrepenurial Golfer. You guys may think flying there is expensive but it's nothing compared to here. There is a lof of tax on fuel not to mention other expenses. A 172 is the equivalent of $291 an hour dual. The Instructor gets about $44 an hour of that to stop him or her starving. Even a 150 is $260 an hour. To be fair that is the rate at one of the bigger schools. You can fly cheaper in a club.
You're lucky it's still relatively inexpensive there compared to the rest of the world.
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But having met Golfer who would get into a plane with him !!!
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Certainly nobody that knows me, xbrit! If I get the students early enough they just think that my way is the way things are supposed to be done :lol
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Originally posted by Gixer
Amazing how cheap fixed wing is. When I was doing my Helicopter PPL rates for H300 solo $300 and duel $360 (NZD) per hour. H500 was $650 (NZD) and I think the Jet Ranger was near $800 (NZD).
And that was back in the mid 90's hate to think what the rates are now. Anyway the price you pay to for the hotness. :D
...-Gixer
In Indianapolis, IN it's $300/hour for dual - including fuel - for a Robinson R-22.
Glove
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I'm going through Pro Aircraft here at Hicks Field (T67) in Fort Worth. They let their 152s go for about $100 an hour and their 172s go for about $130. Fully insured and fuel included. Tack on an additional $50 or so for duel instruction.
Most of the rates I've seen posted are reasonable.
Thankfully I'm past the need for duel instruction. That extra cash comes in handy sometimes. ;)
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Originally posted by Gloves
In Indianapolis, IN it's $300/hour for dual - including fuel - for a Robinson R-22.
Glove
Does that include landing fees? Out of interest, I'll have to check out the local dual rate in Sydney see how it compares. US has always had the best helo rates though.
Never liked the R22, but the R44 was nice to fly.
...-Gixer
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Yep Heli is expensive. In the mid 90's I was paying $300 / hr. Commercial licence cost me about $35K,.
Kid's nowadays are spending anywhere between $40-$50K and that first flying job is increasingly harder to find. It's a lottery ticket.
cheers,
RTR
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The US doesn't have the same landing fee system many places the rest of the world uses (Australia, New Zealand, Great Britan, etc.) so most mom and pop places don't charge an initial landing fee at small airports.
Using an FBO (Fixed Base Operator, gas station, airplane parking Lot and service provider all in one) at busier airports (and even some small ones) you will be charged a Handling or Ramp fee based usually on your airplanes weight. This can be waived with a certain amount of fuel purchased or other factors.
Many small FBOs have self serve fuel, which is billed at a lower rate than having a line service worker fuel your airplane for you. If an FBO does not have a ramp fee it's good practice to purchase "courtesy fuel" to help them stay in business. Fuel is often the best source of revenue for these small businesses which are disappearing at a rather alarming rate. This is usually what's practical. For a small airplane (Cessna 172) you might purchase 10-20 gallons. I did and try to. Only one time in a piston airplane [Mooney] was I ever limited by weight (we were returning to home with one more pax than we started with) to not buy any fuel from an FBO that did the following free of charge:
-Hangared the airplane for the approaching thunderstorm and accompanying hail.
-Provided a car to take to lunch free of charge.
-Restocked my fancy cooler for the passengers with extra sodas and waters. I had the beer covered ;)
I asked them to bill me a hangar fee for the trip since I used their services and they refused. This was Indy Executive (KTYQ) at Montgomery Aviation and I'd never had a bad experience there. This was a regular stop for us and I showed up the next time with plenty of room in the tanks for gas :aok
I'm shutting up now...
Be sure to tip your line guys :D
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Originally posted by RTR
Yep Heli is expensive. In the mid 90's I was paying $300 / hr. Commercial licence cost me about $35K,.
Kid's nowadays are spending anywhere between $40-$50K and that first flying job is increasingly harder to find. It's a lottery ticket.
cheers,
RTR
Actually I think it's easier now then the 90's for that first heli job. Of course after the normal CFI route. But pilot demand is picking up both fixed and rotary. There are more heli jobs advertised downunder at the moment then when I can remember. Of course all require the usual high amount of PnC turbine time.
But there are plenty of CFI job vacancies you just have to be willing to travel, which is always been the major requirement of commercial heli work.
Local good paying jobs are few and far between.
...-Gixer