Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: toonces3 on January 15, 2008, 02:47:01 PM
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Hi all.
I've been experimenting with this with moderate success. Actually not much success.
For the most part, I don't HO. It really depends on the situation. For example, in almost any 1v1 engagement I won't HO. In a total furball situation, I might HO, or might not, depending on what I'm flying, what the other guy is flying, how badly I'm outnumbered, etc.
I'm really interesting in the 1v1 or very, very loose furball where you have a clear merge with your opponent.
When I'm merging against an enemy plane 1v1 that I don't intend to HO, I set up like this: We'll approach generally nose to nose. About 1.5-1.0k out I'll roll my wings briefly and go off nose, in a left turning plane I'll bump out right. I intentionally roll wings and bump my nose off of the guy, sometimes I'll add a little nose low or high, so that the enemy con can clearly see that I've moved so that my nose isn't pointing at him.
I've seen other planes do something similar, or at least I've been able to tell that they're not pointing EXACTLY at me.
When I see this in another plane, I will definately hold off on the shot because I know the guy has maneuvered to avoid a HO and a collision.
The best example I can think of was a fight I had with TIME2DIE a few nights ago. I was in an A-20 at about 7k. He was approaching nose on in a Spit 16. We were clearly nose to nose and I had him sitting in my gunsight. I was deep in his territory over his base, so I was sort of waiting to see if he would open up or not because I knew I could take a hit, while his spit would die to my 50's. About 600-800 out, maybe 1.0k out, I saw him roll wings and go nose to the side, so I knew he wasn't going to shoot. Even though I could've bumped left and opened up, I didn't shoot and instead let the merge happen. Of course a few seconds later I lost the fight and got shot down, but the point was to have the fight, not just hose him and hope for the kill.
By watching his plane, I knew he intentionally maneuvered to avoid a HO, and so I obliged by not HO'ing.
Last night I had the exact opposite experience in the AvA, where I got HO'd by every last plane that passed me, even when I clearly maneuvered to not HO (in a 110 no less). The best was against 1BDSPADE. On our merge I went a bit nose low and to the right. 1.0k out I started seeing tracers all over so at 400 out I bumped the nose up and plastered him. I didn't want to, I wanted to fight, but he just couldn't help himself, or couldn't tell I wasn't going to HO him.
So, the question is, if are you good enough to tell when someone is maneuvering in a manner to merge but NOT HO? Am I wasting my time with this avoidance maneuver?
I think I can tell when someone is doing it to me, but maybe not. Maybe some folks just see it as an opportunity for a free HO.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Hi all.
So, the question is, if are you good enough to tell when someone is maneuvering in a manner to merge but NOT HO? Am I wasting my time with this avoidance maneuver?
If your bogey is still pointed at your nose at d1500, chances are he's lining up a head on.
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I use the following equation to tell if an enemy plane won't HO...
Flying against rooks:
If the tail of the airplane is closer to me then the nose...not gonna HO
If the nose of the airplane is closer to me then the tail...100% HO
Flying against Knights:
If the tail of the airplane is closer to me then the nose...not gonna HO
If the nose of the airplane is closer to me then the tail...100% HO
There are exceptions...for example a c-47...then i use the same equation but substitute ramming for HO.
What really is annoying are the GV HO'ers...i can't remember once when they were cool enough to turnfight for a legitimate six shot...even when i obviously turned my nose away on merge. Tigers are the worst and shold be banned forever
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Originally posted by toonces3
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Last night I had the exact opposite experience in the AvA, where I got HO'd by every last plane that passed me, even when I clearly maneuvered to not HO (in a 110 no less). The best was against 1BDSPADE. On our merge I went a bit nose low and to the right. 1.0k out I started seeing tracers all over so at 400 out I bumped the nose up and plastered him. I didn't want to, I wanted to fight, but he just couldn't help himself, or couldn't tell I wasn't going to HO him.
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:rofl The AvA. What did you expect? :rofl
The only way to make sure you avoid it is to set up a merge that is no where near HO. I can show you if you want and have the time. Otherwise, I do what you did but sometimes it is misleading because what you may be seeing is either a noob adjusting for the shot or a pro HOer making sure that he can kick rudder at the last second and safely shoot you.
Let me know. Its a good move to have anyway.
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Falconwing's equation seems about right. I've run across enough the last month that I'll return the favor now. :)
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I can tell...
When I can't see the nose of the enemy plane in my gunsight, he's not gunna HO.
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If they are not getting seperation for the merge expect the HO/deflection. If they are expect the fight.
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I usually fly offset a few degrees on the merge. For instance, I will turn slightly to the bandit's right. If he corrects and gets his nose on me, at about 1k I will roll to my right, and start a diving turn to the bandit's left.
I know I didn't describe this very good, but it makes it hard for the bandit to get a good shot on me. He has to pull negative G's and turn.
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I take into consideration that they will be HOing 98% of the time (regardless of chess piece affiliation), so I don't try to guess ... I just concentrate on my opening move, which hopefully sets me up for a lead turn at the merge, and at the same time, doesn't give them an opening for the HO. So, if they do come for the HO or don't ... makes no difference to me.
This technique works well for me ... I rarely get taken out by a HO ... they might get a couple of pings on the tail, but rarely enough to put an end to what will happen next.
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I have found when I make very clear moves to avoid the HO the con will go for the hi deflection which in my opinion is every bit a HO and 99.9% of the time it is a VET pilot!! I think when you advertise that you have NO JOY for HO the vets take it as a safe invite to do just that!! Just my $.02:rofl Remember if you get HOd and the dweeble says it was hi deflection, just remind him he is HOTARDLAMEASSPUTTZ, cause you offered clean merge!! Also remember only the vets have consistant skill to pull off that shot, So they be lame lololol.:cool:
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Originally posted by SpikesX
I can tell...
When I can't see the nose of the enemy plane in my gunsight, he's not gunna HO.
pretty good analogy, I guess......
but you got to ask yourself? Just because the opponent looks like he is fixing to Shoot Me in a HO or faceshot situation, do I have to drop to his level and do the same in return? or should I use his faceshot attempt against him to gain angles 1st !
everyone will HO at one time or another.......even the ones who say they never do.......
I like to take a HO shot at the ones who continously HO , extend & reverse, HO, extend & reverse, HO, I give about 3 chances then I pull to them and Blast em....then might suggest they learn better tactics.....not all time, only when I am feeling kind of moody.....
but there are many sub-levels of skill to the different type players of this game....where 80+ % of them will HO most times...the top 20% will only HO when odds are against them being outnumbered, or just to get a rise out of someone :D
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Originally posted by toonces3
Are you good enough to tell when a player won't HO?
Always fly with assumption the other guy is going to HO, no matter what their "skill" level is. This way when you merge, you do so with seperation between you two and no HO shot.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by shreck
I have found when I make very clear moves to avoid the HO the con will go for the hi deflection which in my opinion is every bit a HO and 99.9% of the time it is a VET pilot!! I think when you advertise that you have NO JOY for HO the vets take it as a safe invite to do just that!! Just my $.02:rofl Remember if you get HOd and the dweeble says it was hi deflection, just remind him he is HOTARDLAMEASSPUTTZ, cause you offered clean merge!! Also remember only the vets have consistant skill to pull off that shot, So they be lame lololol.:cool:
Shush, you HO dweeb.
:p
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Originally posted by shreck
I have found when I make very clear moves to avoid the HO the con will go for the hi deflection which in my opinion is every bit a HO and 99.9% of the time it is a VET pilot!! I think when you advertise that you have NO JOY for HO the vets take it as a safe invite to do just that!! Just my $.02:rofl Remember if you get HOd and the dweeble says it was hi deflection, just remind him he is HOTARDLAMEASSPUTTZ, cause you offered clean merge!! Also remember only the vets have consistant skill to pull off that shot, So they be lame lololol.:cool:
Now don't take this the wrong way, but ...
It may be a "clean merge", but not what I would consider a "smart merge", more like a "sloppy merge".
If you want to give me a window for a deflection shot at the merge, then I will take that shot every time ... all day long.
There are exceptions to this ... if I know that Eagler is in the area in a 109F, or cobia38/snaphook is around with in their A-20s, or AKAK is around in his P-38 ... etc, but if I don't know this ahead of time, I will take that high-deflection shot.
The "merge" I try to achieve does not present a guns solution for my enemy and at the same time, sets me up for opening angles that will hopefully put me in the "advantage" position.
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What you've described - keep him in the 10 to 11 o'c - is how I set up nearly every fight given the opportunity, whether the guy "appears to intend" to HO or not.
I actually prefer it when they try to HO me. I When they do so, they give me 30-45' of angle nearly every time, and sometimes more - and unless he's pretty good, I'm around on him for at least one shot before it devolves into a turn fight. It's when the guy I'm fighting sets up for a lead turn in a better turning aircraft that I know I'm likely to be in doodoo.
_____________________________ _________________
Now, having said that, when I'm being pressed, or when I lack the time to choose the positioning I'd prefer, I'm going to take what shot opportunity I have.
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yes
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Originally posted by shreck
I have found when I make very clear moves to avoid the HO the con will go for the hi deflection which in my opinion is every bit a HO and 99.9% of the time it is a VET pilot!!
If you merge with me and did so that allowed me to pull a lead turn on the merge for a front quarter angle shot, I am going to take it and no, it's not a head on shot.
I think when you advertise that you have NO JOY for HO the vets take it as a safe invite to do just that!! [/b]
No, they just see someone that doesn't know how to properly merge and gives them a sweet front quarter shot.
Just my $.02:rofl Remember if you get HOd and the dweeble says it was hi deflection, just remind him he is HOTARDLAMEASSPUTTZ, cause you offered clean merge!! Also remember only the vets have consistant skill to pull off that shot, So they be lame lololol.:cool: [/B]
Just remember that you only have yourself to blame if someone gets an angle on the merge from a lead turn. They wouldn't have if you had properly merged or at least knew how to merge. We just remind these types of players that they are "little whiners" that die because they really don't have any clue, which is evident in your post.
Maybe the reason why "vets" have the consistant ability to pull off these shots is that they recognize their opponent is of lesser ability and these shots are easy since the opponent openly gives these shots by their lack of merge tactics.
ack-ack
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i never HO unles provoked!!! u come at me with a HO and miss i will do my best to kill ya but not with a HO unless we get into loops and that's the way it ends up. Those that do HO must not have any skill as a pilot in AH for my opinion. I just dont see the point in it.
Let me edit that last paragraph.....if i am in a 4+ vs me fight there is a chance i will HO but it would only be as i am manv and not a str8 HO shot. In those situations if a crate winds up in the gunsight i pull the trigger to eliminate the chance of me dieing just that much.
Just a few barks from The Dog
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
I use the following equation to tell if an enemy plane won't HO...
Flying against rooks:
If the tail of the airplane is closer to me then the nose...not gonna HO
If the nose of the airplane is closer to me then the tail...100% HO
Flying against Knights:
If the tail of the airplane is closer to me then the nose...not gonna HO
If the nose of the airplane is closer to me then the tail...100% HO
There are exceptions...for example a c-47...then i use the same equation but substitute ramming for HO.
What really is annoying are the GV HO'ers...i can't remember once when they were cool enough to turnfight for a legitimate six shot...even when i obviously turned my nose away on merge. Tigers are the worst and shold be banned forever
LOL Falc, Come on man, in your BOP Horde when do you ever get to fight an enemy con? Besides, since when did buildings ever shoot back....LOL :D
Still love ya tho man....LOL
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i consider everyone that goes head on with me is going to ho me so i shoot
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AcesHigh is a aerial gunnery simulation. If you let your plane intersect with someone elses ballistics equation then you are going to have a short sortie.
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Originally posted by SFCHONDO
LOL Falc, Come on man, in your BOP Horde when do you ever get to fight an enemy con? Besides, since when did buildings ever shoot back....LOL :D
Still love ya tho man....LOL
thats just mean! :D
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Originally posted by Max
If your bogey is still pointed at your nose at d1500, chances are he's lining up a head on.
Good advice, yet....
In the last year, I assume EVERY SINGLE CON coming at me will attempt the HO.
And 95% of the time, I am right!
Today's latest "3K advantage LA7 HO Dweeb" victim: AKSleepy
I'm considering a "Aces High Hall of Shame" website with names and films...
You'd be SHOCKED who the "Get In an Uber-Ride & HO Everything In Sight" crowd includes.
68ROX
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Originally posted by splitatom
i consider everyone that goes head on with me is going to ho me so i shoot
I assume the ho unless i know who I'm fighting. When trying to get separation on the merge i watch the red-guy, if he goes out of his way to force a shot then i assume that since he's willing to give up good position for a low percentage shot he's likely to HO too and i give no mercy.
If I'm heavily outnumbered I'll HO like a sonostudmuffinun. Or, if I've had a bad night (dealing with hordes, squeakers et.c.) I'll ho.
It's sad to say, but as much as i hate people who HO as a rule, i find myself doing it because my expectations are THAT low in the MA.
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I always merge as if they will ho me.
Heck, I almost count on it.
When they do, and 95%+ of the time they do, I have used the fact they are doing such a terrible move to put them out of position and am already 1/2 way around to their six before they have let off the trigger.
At this point they have two choices.
Die or run.
Run is fine, as I will give them their "space" and let them try again. Usualy after 2-3 failed ho attempts one of two things happen.
1) I have built up enough E that when they run this time I can light 'em up or 2) they don't run and try an ACM move and die.
Either way they die.
I love ho'rs.
They dumb.
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In the AvA right now allies have been HOing due some what to the perception that thier .303 are usless against cannons. The addition of the 6-.50cal F4F has made it easier to counter the axis 20mm in snap shots and 6shots. When we only had .30 cals aside from the P40's 2-50 on the hood, axis planes seemd to abosorb .30's like Paris Hilton wanting attention. If you didnt take a HO when it was available to damage the axis engines, good chance your allied beebee gunned burlap crate was about to die.
Seems the british discoverd this problem during the BoB with their .303's. I guess it's a case of technology dictating survival tactics.
But again none of you will state out right that you want everyone in all arenas at all times who merges with you to play by strict DA rules so all kills are from some angle off the opponents 6. Why don't you just say that rather than these long tirades about other players lack of skill and honor compaired to your own.............?
How often did our DA style rules and duels happen in WW2?<------ I would honestly like to know.
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Originally posted by bustr
In the AvA right now allies have been HOing due some what to the perception that thier .303 are usless against cannons.
:huh
The last thing that I would try when flying .303 armed planes vs cannon rides is a HO...
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I did not mention anything about perceptions of sanity from the allied side. Just causality which was working well enough to start this thread.
But I did notice getting a few .303 into a passing A6m cowling from the front and the same with the 109E produced smoke or fire. I noticed others discoverd this phenominon on the allied side about the same time I did. Seems a pinch of .303 in the cheek was working better at times than 1000 .303 in the hiney................unless all of the allies are supposed to merge, salute on the way by and begin structured dueling.......:r
I may be imagining it but it soes seem that is the gist of this threads original assertion..................:noid
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Originally posted by bustr
How often did our DA style rules and duels happen in WW2?<------ I would honestly like to know.
People don't die in this game.
donkey
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No, I'm good enough to decide whether or not I want to avoid or pull the trigger though.
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Originally posted by 68ROX
Good advice, yet....
In the last year, I assume EVERY SINGLE CON coming at me will attempt the HO.
And 95% of the time, I am right!
Today's latest "3K advantage LA7 HO Dweeb" victim: AKSleepy
I'm considering a "Aces High Hall of Shame" website with names and films...
You'd be SHOCKED who the "Get In an Uber-Ride & HO Everything In Sight" crowd includes.
68ROX
Put me down..I don't feel unmanly if the guy is pointed at me when I fire.
If that makes you think less of me, i think I'll still be able to sleep at night.
:D
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Interesting discussion.
I have taken the opinion that any con coming at me is gonna shoot in the MA. I agree that 95% of the time it happens. I don't really blame folks. After all, the name of the game is to shoot down the bad guy, and if you're in his gunsight why not shoot?
But, there's a segment, at least it sure sounds like there's a segment on the boards here, that want to fight more than rack up kills. What I'm trying to do is advertise to that guy that, 'Hey, I'm not gonna HO you, look, I'm giving a few degrees offset so you can see I'm not gonna do it.' If you've seen someone nose on, and then maneuver intentionally to avoid a collision/HO, then you know the move I'm talking about.
What I can't decide is:
a. The opponent recognizes what I'm doing- our planes are pretty small 1.0k out.
b. The opponent cares what I'm doing- by maneuvering off-nose, I've given what could be stretched to a 'front-quarter shot'. I put this in quotes because this is a very, very front quarter shot. By definition, though, if I take my nose off of you we are not head on. The difference is truly trivial though because the opponent should understand that I'm not going HO intentionally, right?
I don't HO for the most part for two reasons- because most of the time I enjoy dogfighting and I really, really suck at HO shots. I lose them all the time.
Some players I really like told me straight up they'll shoot anyone in their gunsight HO or not. So, I'm not going to try to judge the ethics of the shot.
WRT the AvA last night, I got HO'd by a sampler platter of everything, including F4F's and SBDs, in fact, on one flight I merged with an F4f who HO'd me, I kept going straight and an SBD HO'd me before I'd even turned. I understand what you mean about the .303's though. That would make sense because it really was excessive last night IMO.
This whole offset on the merge move is risky. I had a Hurri 2c take my wing off at 400 yards in mid-war the other night. We had both offset and then it seemed like he kicked the rudder just as we passed and hit my wing. I never had a chance. It does give the opponent an advantage.
I don't really understand how someone HO'ing you necessarily puts them in a bad position. I can't picture a scenario where, if his nose is on you but yours isn't on him, you can have angles on him. I'm not the best dogfighter here, but it seems like anything other than a whisker's width merge gives angles to someone.
I'll take you up on the offer Dedalos, maybe you can explain it to me.
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If people are vulching a base and i can get up, ill HO every single one of the vulch-tards without fail in a hurri 2c or tiffie or 190A8. If i go down, thats ok, my trip back up again is much shorter than theirs. So i HO until i can no longer get up or they are all gone. Gotta fight fire with fire.
In a non vulch/base-defense situation, if i can see my opponent cant or will not take a front-quarter shot, then i almost certainly will. If i can tell there's no risk to me, ill take the front-quarter snapshot everytime. MA fights aren't fair. Never have been, never will be. Fairness is for the DA. If they look like they are going to take a shot, i will normally use that to try lead-turn em and avoid the shot at the same time.
Lets be clear on what a HO is too while we're here. Its where both aircraft are flying straight at each other firing. Anything other than that is not a HO. There are front-quarter snapshots, and then there are true HOs. Very different in my book. Most people think there's no difference - there is.
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Originally posted by toonces3
I don't really understand how someone HO'ing you necessarily puts them in a bad position. I can't picture a scenario where, if his nose is on you but yours isn't on him, you can have angles on him. I'm not the best dogfighter here, but it seems like anything other than a whisker's width merge gives angles to someone.
When i'm confronted with a head on merge I'm usually going to try and get beneath the NME plane at the merge. Most players in the MA will do what ever it takes to put their guns on you, and in his situation it includes pushing nose down hard, to try and get a low percentage snap shot, or try rolling over on you. Either way i am in control, i have forced the enemy to respond to me. Murdr and Schatzi(?) did a video that demonstrates this quite well.
By pushing negative G's or rolling under they are sacrificing position at the merge or precious time. In either case they have given up those things to me and if I'm on my game i can use them to my advantage. It's all about who controls the fight and these players that will do anything to HO, either because they have no grasp of ACM or are incapable of getting on your 6, are easy targets. I'll even go as far as to give them a front profile shot, usually slightly off my 12 o' clock. From their POV it will be an easy HO, in my mind I'm in a shallow dive that will put me below them. By the time i get close enough for them to realize this, they have to jink or push over to get the pipper on me. By then it's too late, they have fallen for the trap and by the time they acquire me in their view i am already pulling up over them, claiming the high ground and the advantage.
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Interesting clerick.
I suppose I'm wasting my time. The folks that are gonna HO are gonna do it regardless of what I do.
The best move is to probably just do a smart merge, whether that calls for a HO or front front front quarter shot or whatever and just fight the fight.
It's stupid to expect folks in the MA to not take a shot if I give it to them. However, I have had some beautiful fights when folks DON'T take the shot, but well, I guess that's it really.
Bustr, we had a fun fight tonight, until I spun myself into the ground. Wasn't it more fun fighting post merge than either of us HO'ing each other right off the bat? That's what I'm getting at, not some ethical discussion of what we should or shouldn't do.
I really try to avoid HO'ing someone if I know they're not going to HO me, but that's just the way I play the game. I don't expect anyone else to do that and I'm not above taking a head on shot if I feel the situation warrants, or if I'm just in a bad mood.
Thanks for the inputs.
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Sometimes I go on the motto of "take any shot you get, there may not be another chance".
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Originally posted by bustr
In the AvA right now allies have been HOing due some what to the perception that thier .303 are usless against cannons. The addition of the 6-.50cal F4F has made it easier to counter the axis 20mm in snap shots and 6shots. When we only had .30 cals aside from the P40's 2-50 on the hood, axis planes seemd to abosorb .30's like Paris Hilton wanting attention. If you didnt take a HO when it was available to damage the axis engines, good chance your allied beebee gunned burlap crate was about to die.
Seems the british discoverd this problem during the BoB with their .303's. I guess it's a case of technology dictating survival tactics.
But again none of you will state out right that you want everyone in all arenas at all times who merges with you to play by strict DA rules so all kills are from some angle off the opponents 6. Why don't you just say that rather than these long tirades about other players lack of skill and honor compaired to your own.............?
How often did our DA style rules and duels happen in WW2?<------ I would honestly like to know.
The better question would be how often did pilots deliberately go into any engagement with a HO shot.
Most kills were by guys the dead plane never saw.
I understand that cannon birds in particular in AH are going to HO on every pass. I expect it.
Because there is no risk, since no one dies, it doesn't take any particular skill or 'courage' to do so in the game cause the worst that can happen is you lose your cartoon plane and get another. Because of that, comparing a WW2 pilot's actions to here doesn't work. They risked the HO and if they blew it they died for real.
As long as it works, the HO shots are going to continue to be taken by just about everyone because it's quicker, takes less effort and will get you your 'attaboys' faster.
Fought a guy tonite in my 38G. He was in a Yak 9T. We headed towards each other co-alt and he started firing 1.5K out. I slid off to the left, went vertical and he lost sight of me apparently as I killed him from a dead six shot before he'd completed half a turn. This happened again with the same guy. When the HO missed, it was like he had no clue what to do.
I tried to talk to him on private and see if he'd talk about what happened, but got no response. I assume he was new.
At the same time another guy is spouting on 200 that he'd been HO'd by a P51B and he was going to HO everyone from now on.
I thought P51B? 4 50s and you are mad at him for losing a wing going nose to nose with a B pony?
Final fight of the night was with a D9. He too did the 1.5K out and firing bit. I ducked him twice while he ran to the next sector before revving. I was almost out of fuel and not going to get back to base. On the third run in I kept the nose on and when he started firing, I fired back. Killed him but ran into his wreckage :)
Personally I'm still lousy at getting out of the way in the big old 38. But I worry more about the guys that don't HO then I do about the one's who do.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
At the same time another guy is spouting on 200 that he'd been HO'd by a P51B and he was going to HO everyone from now on.
That's just someone looking for an excuse to HO...
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That was me and he pulled tons of negative g's, redded out, and gave me over 45 degrees of advantage had he not gotten lucky. I DID NOT HO, I was merging and he decided to go for broke and HO, this was after he ran when I climbed co alt. Like I said on 200, if people are gonna do that and get me 90% of the time, I'm just gonna HO back.
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Here is a scenario of the worst kind for arguments sake to the AH elevated skill and minders of combat etiquet group.
What will all of the top uber play by the DA AvA rules kill anyone anwhere anytime sticks do if the following Idieot Savant 9-14 year old joins our game?
1. He is a natural at knowing the moves and sweet spot in any first shooter or person vs person style combat game 5 minutes after he first enters the game.
2. He enters the MA and owns anything moving but decides the HO is what floats his ego. Plus he ch200 to everyone he HO and kills 100% of the time that he owned them. Worse then SkyRock does X-1000.
3. He wont go DA with any of you, just hangs out in the MA and kills all of you and everyone else as he chooses.
4. Once all of you think you have figured out how to slip his first HO, he can out fly GOD just so he can set you up to be HO'd because it's his prefered form of kill.
5. Again he ch200 to you all that he owns you and the cartoon EGO's you ride on.
After all the HO is the only percentage shot that a non-entity skilless wonder might use to kill each of you with some predictable success. What would each of you do when this kid finally finds Aces High? I'm throwing this out there because so much effort has been expended on this BB over the years to talk nobodies out of using the HO against you.
Common play along with this what if. What would you do in the face of 1 in a 100million player like this?
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Originally posted by Chubbie
That was me and he pulled tons of negative g's, redded out, and gave me over 45 degrees of advantage had he not gotten lucky. I DID NOT HO, I was merging and he decided to go for broke and HO, this was after he ran when I climbed co alt. Like I said on 200, if people are gonna do that and get me 90% of the time, I'm just gonna HO back.
No offense, but it doesn't sound like a HO, but rather a high front quarter shot as you tried to lead turn him where he got lucky and connected.
Is that correct or am I just dumb??:aok
donkey
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That's a HO, had I decided to HO also I'm 100% positive he would've done a more traditional HO. Front quarter shot in the first merge = HO in my book. If it isn't then I'm just gonna become a "front quarter shot" tard with the la7. I'll take the shot and if I miss I'll just keep going, turn around, and repeat. If that's not a HO then I dunno what it is.
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Odds of winning a HO are 50/50, so I try to avoid them. But sometimes it's a do or die only option, or a reflex/snapshot kinda thing. A cold gun HO pass surprises me.:)
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I don't Ho unless the other guy tried it first or heavily outnumbered (most times not even then). The fun of a long drawn out fight no matter the outcome is what does it for me. When the HO is involved and someone goes down from it, it robs you of the opportunity to learn your own strengths and weaknesses and develop them accordingly. However as others have said, no matter how much we complain about it we will never stop others from doing as they please in this regard. My only suggestion for a remedy would be to HTC, why not make HO shots (some arc of degree to be argued at another time) less likely to hit or cause damage. I believe AirWarrior did something like this, and threw out 50% of landed HO shots???
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The fun of a long drawn out fight no matter the outcome is what does it for me.
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Couple of thoughts:
1)In my experience in AcesHigh Long drawn out fights are usually the result on both players being incapable of getting a kill. I can count on one hand the number of engaged close in nerve racking flip flopping tossing turning fights Ive had that lasted more than just a few minutes. Usually my target selected engagements are over in 5-10 seconds........
2) The lethality of the guns in AcesHigh, coupled with the high percentage of heavily armed cannon birds, is so high that usually all you need to do is land a short burst on a target and its down.
3) mid 90s Warbirds seemed alot, ALOT better about generating far more intense and legnthy fights as the planes seemed to take more damage during the fight and the bullets didnt explode planes nearly as often as they do in AcesHigh, just my recollection....its been along while since I flew Warbirds, like 1999.
4) I love this game and HTC, but if HTC ever...and I mean EVER, added a protection bubble around the front of rides or added some other punitive measure to unrealistically negate any aspect of the ballistics impact, then I will sorrowfully conclude my 10+ years with Dale/Doug and crew. Airwarrior is long gone and dead, we dont need to resurrect those things here now.
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You guys are ignoring the question.
I stopped trying HO's dead on long ago because I lost 99% of them.
But, so much effort is made by some of the player base to PR everyone out of engaging in the activity short of HiTech Creations telling players HTC considers it a BIG NO NO and can be grounds for expulsion; I'm curious why the group effort against other paying customers?
Why all of the PR campain to make people beleive HOing is as bad as sex between two men or hacking the game code? Why the witch hunt to stigmatise any player that engages in it? One might ask why are you taking part in openly descriminating against other players freedom of play based on an activity HTC created as an intergal part of the environment?
All of you do realise you are taking it upon yourselves outside of HTC rules of play to personally descriminate against other players based on one game activity: Head On Shooting?
Many of you get steamed up in the O club if your personal rights get stepped on. But it is OK for you to step on others in this game based on your personal bias towards how the game HAS TO BE PLAYED by a group peer effort to stigmatise them from thier same personal rights while playing in Aces High.
So lets have a vote guys. Do you beleive your rights to how the game should be played superceed everyone elses into the future?
Better yet can we get a GOD ruleing from HiTech on the HO. I have problems with peer group preassure to stigmatise paying customers.
1.) Is it an acceptable part of game play and a combat technique like any other?
2.) Is it the sign of an uncouth lowlife and anyone engageing in it is fair game to be stigmatised and made to feel thier $14.95 is less than the peer group identifing them?
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Bustr, I don't believe anyone is telling them they can't HO.
I do believe a lot of folks believe it's not real impressive to have that as your only move.
Folks are certainly entitled to talk about it. Clearly HTC hasn't done anything about it.
The community of players are never going to agree on everything. But then again we're not in charge beyond what becomes the norm based on the group as a whole.
I can only speak to my time in flight sims, going back to AW in 96. There are clearly guys who go back a lot further.
The message from my 'elders' in AW was that HO shots were frowned upon. That was drilled into us by the community at that point. Personally I haven't lost that feeling about those kinds of shots.
I can't dictate you don't take it, but I'm not going to encourage it.
Does it mean I'm right? Who knows. I tried to listen to what the vets passed on to me and as a 'vet' now I try and pass that on to newer folks then me.
Whether they listen is up to them.
I'd like to believe that the vets in the game set the tone and as they move on, the new guys become the vets and pass it on again.
I can only speak for myself, but the one thing I do take somewhat seriously in AH is how I play the game and how I come across to folks in the game. I think folks know I'm not going to shoot em in the face as my preference is to try and use my feeble ACM skills to get behind them for a shot. I'd like to think they know I'm going to be having fun either way.
I do believe how we represent ourselves and play the game has a big impact on the game overall. The player base does create expectations and does have that responsibilty to for lack of a better word, police itself.
The game evolves from that. Someone's effort to talk about HO shots as a negative thing is no different then your effort to get folks to forget about it.
As for being identified as a particular type of player based on how you play the game. We all have that done to us in one way or another.
Think about it. Just off the top of my head.
AKAK- High alt 38 driver. ( I know that one isn't true but it came from somewhere)
999000 (Fortress of doom no matter where he is.)
Slapshot or Laz-FM2s in the furball
Karaya Ki61 furballer
Betty-Tiffie driver
Herb-C2 of some kind, coming down from on high.
Vanscrew-squad hopper
Skyrock-Owns everyone
Hub-B25 pilot
Oldemon-low alt 51 furballer
it goes on and on.
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Yeager on the flip side concerning the damage model.
Obviously that applies to the people who can actually shoot. The guys you find yourself fighting for a longer time will most likely be a better shot than your average guy. Hence them making a shot count when they do get solution.
Every day I see friendlies chase 1 enemy porker around the base for a good few minutes and still not down him. I've played games where the damage model is far worse than AH even a good shot with 50 cal would take pages of hits to get a kill.
Here I can do very well in a pony B with only 4 50 cals.
Oh and if you don't get hit you should be fine
;)
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The way I see it toonces is.
If the guy is blatantly going to HO avoid him, kill him
If he is shaping up for a head on merge but starts his avoidance to early and gives me an opportunity to kill him easily before I have to do any hard work I'll take that shot. 1. because i'm lazy 2. if i'm outnumbered I want to move onto the next guy ASAP. 3. Hopefully he will learn from his mistake and work on his avoidance technique and become a better player from me killing him.
If he is on the ball we fight.
Using zoom also helps to see what the enemy is doing, you should be able to make your decision before he gets anywhere near gun range.
I will add that in a multi-con engagement people will be swapping targets all the time. If your turn fighting one plane and another one happens to pop up right infront of you 90% of guys will just spray the f*** out of you. Pulling out of the way when your low and slow sometimes just isn't do-able especially if the fight isn't going your way and you have 2,3 or more guys all fixated on yourself.
If they cry on 200 (if you have it tuned) that you hoed them call them a gangtard. If they PM you, politely point out your view of the fight if they are still griefing tell them to where to go and squelch!
Bruv
~S~
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They can always HO with me if I point my gun sight at them. If I dont point it at them, they cannot HO with me.
So, I can always tell if there is a chance for HO occuring :p
That's all there is to it.
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I look at HO's this way rooks were trying to take A60 or something so all the bish were in La's and spit16's and everyone HOed. Which is fine by me cuz i came over in a 190-a8. I thought it was hilarious a spit 16 hoing a 190-a8 so i opened up on him and low and behold he missed i took both his wings. I try to fight with out HOing but i get frustrated sometimes and just ho not my main attack in any which way. But im also taking the time to learn not so uber planes so ACM is life or tower in some.
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You use the fact that they are going to ho against them.
You KNOW what they are going to do.
You GIVE them what they think is a shot.
You don't give them a shot, or at the least you give them a shot they are gonna miss 99% of the time.
While they are "pushing" or "forcing" that HO shot you are placing their plane out of "position" for the ensuing fight.
You then begin the fight holding a huge advantage on them. Your plane is already 1/2 way around to their 6 for an ezy kill and they are still trying to figure out where you are.
It's easy actually.
Like I said before, they have two choices. They can keep flying and run, or try to fight and die. You REALLY gota screw up bad to loose that fight. You START the fight almost on their 6. You hold all the advantages.
I LOVE HO'rs.
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In the HO merge situation if I see the guy who try to dive slightly and force me to HO with my plane nose down, I instantly know it gonna be a tough fight. If he goes for a HO normally he is an easy target.
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Originally posted by WMLute
I always merge as if they will ho me.
Heck, I almost count on it.
When they do, and 95%+ of the time they do, I have used the fact they are doing such a terrible move to put them out of position and am already 1/2 way around to their six before they have let off the trigger.
At this point they have two choices.
Die or run.
Run is fine, as I will give them their "space" and let them try again. Usualy after 2-3 failed ho attempts one of two things happen.
1) I have built up enough E that when they run this time I can light 'em up or 2) they don't run and try an ACM move and die.
Either way they die.
I love ho'rs.
They dumb.
All 100% true.
One of my favorite moves is to let them "think" they will get the HO shot, and jink at the last second, flip over and take their wing off.
Often, I will see tracers over my 6, as I roll over on them. Not long after that the stick stirring begins :)
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Originally posted by Chubbie
That's a HO, had I decided to HO also I'm 100% positive he would've done a more traditional HO. Front quarter shot in the first merge = HO in my book. If it isn't then I'm just gonna become a "front quarter shot" tard with the la7. I'll take the shot and if I miss I'll just keep going, turn around, and repeat. If that's not a HO then I dunno what it is.
A front quarter shot is just that ... a front quarter shot.
If your opponent gets this type of shot during a fight ... it's called a snapshot.
If your opponent gets this type of shot at a merge ... it's called a snapshot on a crappy merge.
In both cases ... it's not an HO.
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I expect a HO attempt on every merge. Nine times out of ten I'm not disappointed. I clearly signal my intent to not HO by diving under them.
Nine times out of ten my opponent will still try to get that front quarter shot.
And nine times out of ten they will die.
Every time I've tried to HO someone I've died in the attempt, so I gave up on that tactic. Though I will occasionally, while in a furball, or out of frustration, attempt the HO.
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Originally posted by bustr
How often did our DA style rules and duels happen in WW2?<------ I would honestly like to know.
To tell you the truth, I don't know. i do know me however. If I was in a set up like the the current AvA and I was in a Spit, Hurri, or P40B Vs a 110, I would do everything in my power to go back home. So, the last thing I would do is line up my plane with that 110 on purpose. Bullets in the face kind of hurt :lol Now, if the opportunity came up in the middle of a fight then sure, anything to get me home alive. But lining up my head with his guns? I don't think so, lol.
We are not complaining about HOs in general. We are saying that that is all some people will try. That is stupid in game and in real life. Really, when I see Spit1s firing HO at a 110 from 1.5K out there is no argument about it. It is just stupid :rofl
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don't HO, and i don't take front quarter snapshots on the first merge, whats the point if i'm not going to get a good fight? all of the best fights I have ever had don't end with those type of shots and there obviously is a reason why :D
i've seen this never ending argument enough times to know that all this talk is hot air and doesn't matter, but i have my principles to finding and having a good fight and i'll stick to them and salute pilots that make for a good fight. if it takes 5 baddies ganging and hoing me to kill me and i get a salute from one, don't expect one back, expect a comment on your dweebiness on 200 and perhaps an invitation to the DA (which the gang tard will never take while trying to sound superior but this is for another thread i guess).
it never fails to amaze me how many people in this game just play for a quick lucky kill with a lack of ACMs; do they not realize how much more there is to this game?
p.s. i also think people who can see me or anyone else attempting to avoid a HO and just continue to go for the high deflection front quarter snapshot on the first merge are just as dweeby as anyone else going for a HO
[/rant]
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Originally posted by SlapShot
A front quarter shot is just that ... a front quarter shot.
If your opponent gets this type of shot during a fight ... it's called a snapshot.
If your opponent gets this type of shot at a merge ... it's called a snapshot on a crappy merge.
In both cases ... it's not an HO.
If your fronting each other on the first merge and one starts blazing, they are a HO'er! :aok
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Yup only positive way to tell is when your being hit. I've turned off so many times and had them duck to hit my plane or ram... that I am hesitant to move, thereby finding myself having to answer in kind.... and I never win. lol
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What it really comes down to is that the HO is the move that SCREAMS: I have no ACM, no talent, no skills, nothing besides one move...the HO.
Players who are proud of their ACM skills and have worked hard on their tactics will ALWAYS look at the HO-advocate as a one-trick-pony.
Even Manfred von Richthofen used the HO tactic in WWI until he was shot in the head and nearly died. He never used the HO again.
Pilots in WWII used the HO as a last resort, especially since the enemy had 20mm's and they were only packing 50 cals & 303's.
For the nutjobs above who preach that you can ALWAYS avoid the HO..well, ya can't. In some cases you can (I have plenty of films to prove it)....and in some cases you can't (I have plenty of films to prove it). This game is just like real life driving where you only have a split second to see/evaluate/react.
There have been many threads and many posts on the subject, but the HO is the only move that AH'ers love to hate. It's GAMBLING at it's finest, and the odds are not in your favor. You are GAMBLING that YOUR cyber-weapon will cause more damage than THEIR cyber-weapon in the timeframe before someone dies. There is no skill or tactics to it, it's just a fight between kids.
In game, it's VERY easy to assume that (especially in a 1v1) your are going to be HO'ed EVERY TIME. There are just too many kids with no ACM and the HO is all they know. I stated my percentage at 95%, and others have quoted a number close.
If someone is damned and determined to HO you, they will.
What makes the victim angry about it is the cheap, no skills way they did it.
68ROX
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I thought the question was "can you tell when a player won't HO", not "Is the HO the right thing to do" or "what's the definition of a HO".
Since we're now beyond the initial question, for me, there's times that setting up a HO makes perfect sense. There's times it doesn't. There's times accepting a HO makes sense. There's times it doesn't. Expect it and perfect it (including avoidance manouvers) but don't rely on it.
The only time I'm frustrated by a HOer is when it's me against many and one of the many feel they need to HO (happened last night in a me on 6-8 or so near a Rook base. Also happened one night in a me on 3 where one of the guys tried HOing me 3 times!). HO's are sometimes unavoidble when manouvering in those types of situations. If you see me whine on 200 about a HO, this is usually why. If you already have a numerical advantage, don't HO. You probably don't need to.
BTW, head to head merge high angle front deflection is still a HO in my book.
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The line of questioning that no one really wants to directly answer that I have attempted to engage you all in resulted from the following.
My wife has been an HR Manager for a number of companies. She is some what informed about day to day in the life of Aces High the soap opra because of my particapation. She reads these threads once in awhile to attempt to understand and support my interest in the game. She read this one in particular yesterday.
Last night she asked me a hypothetical question about the game from the stand point of HR having to feild a customer complaint. Since I respect her observations and insights it made me think about the HO not as a player in the game. She knows this is a private company and the game is association at will for both parties.
Is it acceptable for a peer group of players to force thier view of game play on other players, attendant with derogitory personal language descriptors over a tactic which obviously the host company included in the game and deems an equal non-stigamatised part of the game experience?
If this is true, it could be mistaken that descrimination is condoned by one group of players against those they deem less than themselves for using that tactic. In essence some players $14.95 fee is worth more than other players $14.95 fee by virtue of a special group of players who refuse 98.2% of the time to use that tactic.
Kinda like christians saying all gays are sinful then identifying and forceing anyone gay to act in line with the dictates of christians even though being gay is not against the law in that christian country.
Then she observed that the HO seems like a tactic that might equalise the differences in skill levels for newer players to higly accomplished players. She surmised from years of reading these threads that it must be hard to have developed lots of skill and be taken out by someone with a sucker punch.
But she was mostly concerned with the perception of descrimination and cohercion by a peer group to control how other players enjoy their $14.95.
Had to admit it to her I never considered it up to this point. I to am guilty of decrying the HO at times. Yep it sucks to get sucker punched.....
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I can generally tell if a guy is going to HO. First thing is, Is this guy for certain going to die. If he is surrounded by a ton of countrymen I expect an HO. Why not I would. 2nd on the merge is he weaving, lowering his nose or raising his nose or working his rudders. And I guess the third would be is his plane damaged.
Yep, I think those 3 items will tell the story.
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good point bustr.
Bottom line game definition is: Head On is two players coming at each other nose to nose. if this is a true statement then Head Ons are purely avoidable.
To criticize people who have attacked you Head On is self incriminating.
There is no point to the Head On debate, it is just people complaining who have lost the fight.
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Lute....very well said..I really enjoy breaking early to Kill the Jousters...
But..I often get many kills when I play like Im the Jouster and I see them try to get "evasive" I think its my SNap shot skills and the plane i ride...Typhoon O DOOM..those 20s only need to tickle you to break you in half..
I often give the folks an impression im going to Joust...I i see them go for "evasive roll" I shoot them..I think I get the kill 70% of the time....If I see them try for a Joust..depending where im at an dE state..I will Joust..Its hard to beat the 4-20mils...I always try a short burst then roll Like Cheech and Chong...
I would think the FWs must be the best at this since their roll rates are insane..
Salute to the Honorable Time Tested JOUST!!! an to all the whines you get.,...whaaaa
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Originally posted by Yeager
To criticize people who have attacked you Head On is self incriminating.
If I'm coming around a break turn with 3 cons on my a@@ and get HO'd by the fourth that's hardly self-incriminating.
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Originally posted by bustr
Last night she asked me a hypothetical question about the game from the stand point of HR having to feild a customer complaint. Since I respect her observations and insights it made me think about the HO not as a player in the game. She knows this is a private company and the game is association at will for both parties.
Is it acceptable for a peer group of players to force thier view of game play on other players, attendant with derogitory personal language descriptors over a tactic which obviously the host company included in the game and deems an equal non-stigamatised part of the game experience?
No one is forcing anyone to do anything, Bustr. The anti-HO crowd is making fun of the pro-HO crowd. The members of the pro-HO crowd are free to smile back, yell back, change their ways or continue on their current paths. Your wife would recognize this as the gaming equivalent of a "hostile work environment," but, so far as I know, there is no prohibition against a work environment being hostile based on HO discrimination (as opposed to, say, sex or age or race).
Same thing with vulchers and gangers. We can make fun of them and call them names, but we have no power whatever to force them to stop vulching or ganging.
- oldman
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oldman is a HO'r.....
:p
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
BTW, head to head merge high angle front deflection is still a HO in my book.
Well, in my book in a 1 v 1 engagement, it's a crappy merge, and if I die to a deflection shot on a merge, I only get pissed at myself for making such a crappy merge.
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Oldman,
I'm aware of your position.
I personaly have been so immersed in the game that I was unprepaired for her observation as a human resources professional. I met her at one of the corporations we worked at because I was the head of e-mail and had to help her during a complaint of bias and verbal cohersion by a manger towards subordinates. The managers e-mails ultimatly tipped the investigation in the subordinates favor. Chances are that past incident biased me and her observations triggered a line of reasoning.
I never looked at AH before as a place that possibly had a veild culture of peer preassure to influence other players not to use a tactic they dissaprove of. Grousing on a BBS usualy is grousing on a BBS. I just figured what she observed might be what some parents might be thinking. After all they are paying customers.
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If I'm coming around a break turn with 3 cons on my a@@ and get HO'd by the fourth that's hardly self-incriminating.
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To me this isnt even a merge. Thats just a bad situation to let yourself get into. Again, the fourth con is practically obligated to shoot you down. If he doesn't, one of the other three surely will.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
... if I die to a deflection shot on a merge, I only get pissed at myself for making such a crappy merge.
I agree that if I die to a deflection on the merge I get pissed at myself for allowing it.
On the other hand, if I set up for a HO and the guy beg's off at the last moment and I kill him on the deflection, I still know it was a HO. I intended to HO the whole time and carried it through and won, even though my opponent tried to avoid it. I don't try to justify it as a deflection shot to save my honor... it's still a HO.
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Bustr,
I'm not sure what your question has to do with the topic at hand.
My question stems from a not-infrequent occurance.
One night I'm in Mid. I'm flying off the CV with Mole and some other guy, 3 of us against 3 or 4 guys about 20 miles away at their field. Not trying to capture, just dogfighting.
I log on and Mole says, "I've got some good fights going on with Oldman over here."
So I up a Seafire, head on over and get into a great fight with Oldman22. He goes down, comes back up, we are getting ready to merge. We're nose to nose, but just so he knows I'm not going to shoot I do my little wing wiggle nose bump out thing. We merge go into our fight and I get shot down. We . Nice fight.
Now, I have 2 kids and alot of work to do, so I only have an hour to play. This is all the AH I'm gonna get today. I up a F4U-1, a plane I'm not too good in. Heading to the field, taking a few minutes to grab alt. I see 2 Hurri 2c's coming in. I go into the merge with Hurri #1. I do my wing wiggle nose bump thing so he knows I'm not going to HO him. His nose is a bit off the side too. Should be a clean merge. Then 400 yards out, "Stickpig" kicks his rudder into me and opens up with his cannons and takes off my wing. I go down.
For 30 minutes I've been having good fights, now I just wasted 10-15 minutes of my hour of game time flying into a freaking HO. Not fun.
I up again. Same scenario. I'm hoping this time it's Oldman22 and not Stickpig. I open up a bit, nose comes right to me and opens up and before I even have a chance to evade I am right to the tower by NC33.
Now my game time is up, with the last 30 minutes taken up with two quick HO deaths.
For me, I would have like to see how I could handle that Corsair against a Hurri for a few minutes. For them, I was a quick kill and a few perks.
I don't have all day and night to play this game. This was a total waste of my time.
My question to YOU was whether, by performing an early avoidance maneuver to get my nose close, but not on you, could you tell that I was setting up NOT to HO you, because I don't want you to HO me because you think I'm gonna HO YOU. That's it.
Somehow, I think in that situation Stickpig and NC33 were gonna HO me with their woobiecanes no matter what I did. Maybe not. Maybe they thought I was gonna HO them. Did my maneuver make a difference? That's MY question to YOU.
Whether you should or shouldn't HO, or whether the community has any input, I've read that discussion enough times. I really don't care what the answer is.
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Honor? Are you serious?
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I agree that if I die to a deflection on the merge I get pissed at myself for allowing it.
On the other hand, if I set up for a HO and the guy beg's off at the last moment and I kill him on the deflection, I still know it was a HO. I intended to HO the whole time and carried it through and won, even though my opponent tried to avoid it. I don't try to justify it as a deflection shot to save my honor... it's still a HO.
OK .. I see where you are coming from.
I never setup for the HO (except when I am about to get vulched) ... I ALWAYS try to setup my merge for a lean turn with the hopes of gaining angles in my favor.
Now, if my lead turn is pulling into you, and you are trying to counter my lead turn and present me with a snapshot ... I will rake you from prop to tail without blinking an eye.
I primarily fly .50 cal planes, and these types of deflection/snapshots usually don't result in an instant kill, but rather they remove vital parts, or oil damage, or kill you engine. If any of these cases is true, then I really have the upper hand for the remainder of the fight.
Here is some scenarios and how I approach them if I am tooling around in my F6F.
If I am alone and encounter any lone Spit/Zeke/Hurri, I am looking to hurt you before the merge if the situation presents itself ... not via a HO ... I avoid using HO at all costs ... but if during the merge, they present a snapshot, I am taking it in hopes of hobbling him at the start and we will see what happens from there.
If I am alone and encounter any plane that is comparable to my HellCat, I will not look for the merge snapshot ... I am hoping that after the merge the fight is on and it's a good one ... win or lose.
If I am alone and encounter any multiples or I encounter just one, with another or more within icon range ... I will try to knock you out of the sky as fast as possible ... without the HO at the start. If things progress to a point where I am low and slow and struggling ... all bets are off and I will take any any all shots available ... HO, snapshot, etc.
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Originally posted by Yeager
If I'm coming around a break turn with 3 cons on my a@@ and get HO'd by the fourth that's hardly self-incriminating.
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To me this isnt even a merge. Thats just a bad situation to let yourself get into. Again, the fourth con is practically obligated to shoot you down. If he doesn't, one of the other three surely will.
Not always, even if they do, a couple will be in the tower when its all done. Actually, the 4th guy is taking a good situation for his team mates and makes it bad. They could very easily kill shoot them selfs if they fire at the wrong time or they could get picked off by someone diving in. The 4th guy should stay above them and watch their back. That would actually be team play.
Then again, if any of that happened, you guys will tell them that it was bad SA on their end :rofl
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In case no one had figured it out, war is hell and theres no second places. Ho'ing although un-ethical is a way to A) kill the other guy B) get points. many frown apon it, but ask yourself this question, if it was real life would you shoot or hope your opponent had standards and ethics. my theory is there is no honor among thieves and i wouldn't take that chance. ill take the shot, if he's dead and I'm not, so much the better. I'll still sleep good and night and be able to face the guy in the mirror in the morning. if i die, then it doesn't matter anyway. its a game boys, treat it as such. if you're getting ho'ed and getting frustrated, move to a different airbase. no one says you have to keep getting ho'ed or vulched. sorry just my 2 cents.
jaeger1
jg54
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Originally posted by captain1ma
In case no one had figured it out, war is hell and theres no second places. Ho'ing although un-ethical is a way to A) kill the other guy B) get points. many frown apon it, but ask yourself this question, if it was real life would you shoot or hope your opponent had standards and ethics. my theory is there is no honor among thieves and i wouldn't take that chance. ill take the shot, if he's dead and I'm not, so much the better. I'll still sleep good and night and be able to face the guy in the mirror in the morning. if i die, then it doesn't matter anyway. its a game boys, treat it as such. if you're getting ho'ed and getting frustrated, move to a different airbase. no one says you have to keep getting ho'ed or vulched. sorry just my 2 cents.
jaeger1
jg54
Thats the point, it does not matter because there is no penalty for it. In real life, and I don;t care what the TV or you guys say, I would sure as hell won't be putting myself in a situation looking strait into 6 or 8 guns. Not by design anyway.
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Toonces, I'd be happy to take up a Corsair against you in a Hurri and let you see how I would have merged to avoid the obvious HO - and as Lute alludes to, 7 out of 10 times, kill him before he can get around on me.
Or better yet, go see a trainer and have someone who's a really good show you how (I'm just "better than average").
You need never (or at least, 99%+ of the time won't) die to the HO when 1 v 1 unless you screw up (to the point where you knew it before it happened), and will get to where the moment you see one you being attempted you can pretty much dismiss the player as likely little more than another scalp on your belt.
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Originally posted by toonces3
Bustr,
I'm not sure what your question has to do with the topic at hand.
My question stems from a not-infrequent occurance.
One night I'm in Mid. I'm flying off the CV with Mole and some other guy, 3 of us against 3 or 4 guys about 20 miles away at their field. Not trying to capture, just dogfighting.
I log on and Mole says, "I've got some good fights going on with Oldman over here."
So I up a Seafire, head on over and get into a great fight with Oldman22. He goes down, comes back up, we are getting ready to merge. We're nose to nose, but just so he knows I'm not going to shoot I do my little wing wiggle nose bump out thing. We merge go into our fight and I get shot down. We . Nice fight.
Now, I have 2 kids and alot of work to do, so I only have an hour to play. This is all the AH I'm gonna get today. I up a F4U-1, a plane I'm not too good in. Heading to the field, taking a few minutes to grab alt. I see 2 Hurri 2c's coming in. I go into the merge with Hurri #1. I do my wing wiggle nose bump thing so he knows I'm not going to HO him. His nose is a bit off the side too. Should be a clean merge. Then 400 yards out, "Stickpig" kicks his rudder into me and opens up with his cannons and takes off my wing. I go down.
For 30 minutes I've been having good fights, now I just wasted 10-15 minutes of my hour of game time flying into a freaking HO. Not fun.
I up again. Same scenario. I'm hoping this time it's Oldman22 and not Stickpig. I open up a bit, nose comes right to me and opens up and before I even have a chance to evade I am right to the tower by NC33.
Now my game time is up, with the last 30 minutes taken up with two quick HO deaths.
For me, I would have like to see how I could handle that Corsair against a Hurri for a few minutes. For them, I was a quick kill and a few perks.
I don't have all day and night to play this game. This was a total waste of my time.
My question to YOU was whether, by performing an early avoidance maneuver to get my nose close, but not on you, could you tell that I was setting up NOT to HO you, because I don't want you to HO me because you think I'm gonna HO YOU. That's it.
Somehow, I think in that situation Stickpig and NC33 were gonna HO me with their woobiecanes no matter what I did. Maybe not. Maybe they thought I was gonna HO them. Did my maneuver make a difference? That's MY question to YOU.
Whether you should or shouldn't HO, or whether the community has any input, I've read that discussion enough times. I really don't care what the answer is.
This sounds like you wish HOing could be asked to leave the room in deference to your personal needs.
My wife's observation was rooted in years of putting up with my rants about HOing and her reading these threads to keep from shooting me in my sleep. Her concern with her HR perspective observation is how easy it is for groups of people who have a similare dislike of something to allow thier own rationlisations to justify influencing others without accepting noncompliance. It's a very slippery slope and human beings are imperfict. Thats why games have a master set of rules or a GOD person to help us be our better selves during game play.
For awhile she thought HOing was against the rules of this game and thought that was the source of my personal rants in the house. Becuase she didn't want me to have a seasure, she started reading threads on the AH BBS. She aquainted herself with the game well enough over the years to know HOing is not against the games rules of play. So last night I guess she got fed up and asked an obvious question that an outside observer might ask. After all we are very tranparent in our diaologs and personal efectations where this game is concerned.
She just wondered how parents who pay for thier children to play would react if they began actualy reading the BBS threads as much as she did and as outside observers draw some of the same conclusions.
It's human nature for humans to try and influence thier environment to reflect thier own desires regardless of others. Rules or laws are the response to this tendancy. I agree getting sucker punched aint fun......
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Can I tell if someone is going to light up on my front end on a nose to nose merge.? NO. Noone knows what is going on in someone else's head. So I assume at all times that the enemy's guns will light up inside that 1k radius at any given moment, and plan accordingly. I could give a care if you are ranked #1 or # 5000, all of us do it at one time or another depending on the circumstances.
PS-It is bad form Toonces to be naming names in your original post.
Oink
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Bustr,
Just like in real life, there are laws and rules you have to follow, and then there are things you don't do because they are stupid or you make fun of because they are stupid.
For example, there is no law about eating with your feet sitting on the carpet and then buying a new carpet every day. However, it is stupid and you either don;t do it or someone is making fun of you for that.
There is no law (that I know of, lol) forbidding you from mowing your lawn dressed as a bride. But your neighbor will make fun of you.
You see? choosing to HO all the time falls in that category. It is that simple. No law against it, but you may hear a few things about it.
As far as your wife goes, I think you said you met her at work? Most companies have a rule against that so you better check! You might have broken some HR rules there :lol (I guess I have to say that that was meant as a joke, lol)
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Toonces ...
I read your post, but don't want to quote the whole thing.
I have fought both of those guys many times in my F6F (very similar to your F4U) and I have never died to their guns via a HO.
First ... when approaching a Hurri IIC ... EXPECT them to go for the HO right from the start ... if you present the opportunity.
Now ... DO NOT .. I repeat DO NOT merge with them like you would merge in a DA fight.
When attacking a Hurri IIC, I want to be fast, and I want to come at him at an angle, with some distance, to prevent what you fell prey to. My attack angle will create some sort of counter-move and the chess match continues from there.
By coming in fast on a Hurri IIC, in a HellCat, I can immediately take the "high" road and hopefully control the fight from there and work him until I get the correct angle for a nice guns solution.
Let me ask you this ... are you trying to merge as one would merge in the DA ? ... wing to wing ... cockpit to cockpit ... close-in merge ? If so, STOP doing that.
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dedalos,
None taken....:)
My addiction has taken some toll on the wife. She has been very understanding to the point of replacing my beer during combat so I have a freash one waiting. That and her efforts to understand this addiction is enough for me to pass on her observation to the community. thank god I met her however it happened.......:aok
We are really too close to the show to have an objective and frank say in this. Her observation might have helped some of our readers to peak for just a second longer at their own motivations for saying HOing is evil and poor play to others. After all I don't think I'm the only player who has flown 2 sectors looking for a fight just to get sucker punched back to the tower. Now am I?
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bustr,
Bud, I can't explain this anymore clearly. My intent was to start a discussion regarding making a maneuver in such a way that someone who is merging with me, and is on the fence about whether or not I'm going to HO them, will realize by my maneuver that I'm not going to do so. It is my hope that this person, seeing this, will choose not to HO in return so that we can merge and then fight.
Some folks will HO anyway. For them, what I do makes no difference.
Some folks won't HO unless they think they will be HO'd themselves. Will my move make a difference?
I'm not advocating one style of play over the other. That has been beat to death. I don't care how you play the game- I do wonder if how I play has any influence on how you play.
I would prefer not to get HO'd when I'm not going to HO myself, but that's just me. I don't get on 200 and whine about it too often though because HO's happen.
Wastin2,
It's only bad form if they did something wrong. Did they do something wrong? Did I say they did something wrong? All they did is waste 30 minutes of my playing time. They got their kills; I logged off feeling like I shoulda played another game or read a book or something instead.
Again, thanks for the inputs. I think the best move is to get with Ded or Ghastly or a trainer and learn HO avoidance maneuvers and just get on with my game. Clearly merging in a manner that isn't avoiding the HO altogether isn't the way to go. My question has been pretty much answered.
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hehehe Hubs....
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Slapshot,
Yes, I'm merging like in a DA scenario. I suppose I've been lulled into a false sense of security because I've had a lot of good flights in Mid War where HO's just didn't happen. Alot like the AvA used to be.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Honor? Are you serious?
Huh? Who? Me?
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Originally posted by toonces3
Slapshot,
Yes, I'm merging like in a DA scenario. I suppose I've been lulled into a false sense of security because I've had a lot of good flights in Mid War where HO's just didn't happen. Alot like the AvA used to be.
Whoa ... let's not lay this on an "arena".
The type of MA arena has nothing to do with it.
There is a "DA merge" and then there is an "MA merge".
Any fight, outside of a fight in the DA arena, should not be approached with the same mindset as when in the DA ... if you do that, you are setting yourself up for an HO or snapshot merge and that is a problem on your end.
I have had countless good fights in the MW, and I have had many try to start and end the fight with an HO in the EW/MW/LW ... the HO artist will survive in and inhabit all MA arenas ... make no mistake about it.
In any arena that I fly ... if the opponent is NOT coming for an HO and is trying as hard as hell as I am to setup a lead turn ... then I know that I better strap in, cause the fur is gonna fly.
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I vote HiTech add one more arena.
HO's Disabled LWchartruse Arena.
1. Air to Air collisions - ON.
2. Head on shooting kills - OFF
3. 1 vs 1 engagements only - ON
4. Max Alt Ceiling - 7K
5. General VOX channel 666 comm across all country - ON
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Ho'ing although un-ethical
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Head On shots are as ethical as any other shots in this game. Dont be fooled by any concerted loser whiner. You have guns, roks, and bombs, use them best you can. Avoid others guns, roks, and bombs, again, as best you can. Kill or be killed, and dont whine about it.
Whiners are truly the bane of this game.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Ho'ing although un-ethical
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Head On shots are as ethical as any other shots in this game. Dont be fooled by any concerted loser whiner. You have guns, roks, and bombs, use them best you can. Avoid others guns, roks, and bombs, again, as best you can. Kill or be killed, and dont whine about it.
Whiners are truly the bane of this game.
Yeager,
I just asked Marcey to bring you a beer. You sound like you need one........:D
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Originally posted by Yeager
Ho'ing although un-ethical
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Head On shots are as ethical as any other shots in this game. Dont be fooled by any concerted loser whiner.
True
You have guns, roks, and bombs, use them best you can.
True
Avoid others guns
So, don't go head on on purpose
Whiner
A person that does not agree with some one
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Originally posted by toonces3
Slapshot,
Yes, I'm merging like in a DA scenario. I suppose I've been lulled into a false sense of security because I've had a lot of good flights in Mid War where HO's just didn't happen. Alot like the AvA used to be.
Toonces, I offered to show you how to do it. Let me know
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Originally posted by toonces3
Now, I have 2 kids and alot of work to do, so I only have an hour to play. This is all the AH I'm gonna get today. I up a F4U-1, a plane I'm not too good in. Heading to the field, taking a few minutes to grab alt. I see 2 Hurri 2c's coming in. I go into the merge with Hurri #1. I do my wing wiggle nose bump thing so he knows I'm not going to HO him. His nose is a bit off the side too. Should be a clean merge. Then 400 yards out, "Stickpig" kicks his rudder into me and opens up with his cannons and takes off my wing. I go down.
For 30 minutes I've been having good fights, now I just wasted 10-15 minutes of my hour of game time flying into a freaking HO. Not fun.
I up again. Same scenario. I'm hoping this time it's Oldman22 and not Stickpig. I open up a bit, nose comes right to me and opens up and before I even have a chance to evade I am right to the tower by NC33.
Now my game time is up, with the last 30 minutes taken up with two quick HO deaths.
The point of the merge is not to show your opponent by wiggling your wings and doing "nose bump" thing that you're not going to HO. The merge isn't the time to tip your lance in salute, it's the time to set up your maneuvers so when you meet the other guy in the merge, you'll be in a position to gain an angle.
If you were HO'd, then you really only have yourself to blame. You gave the other guy a shot and he took it, end of story. Instead of crying about being HO'd, you should have learned from your multiple mistakes and start creating seperation between you and the other guy on the merge.
ack-ack
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So, don't go head on on purpose
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I would say that if you have a good head on shot and can maneover out of the way before the opponent can fire back on you, then take the shot. My typical head on shot starts at about 1100-1000 and lasts for about 0.5 seconds (me? six 50s, opponent is typically at 900-800 by then and bullets will impact generally at about 700-600 at typical rate of closure) just before I make a maneover off my line of advance. The depth of that maneover depends on the voracity of my opponents own manoevering. As a general rule I get hits with this technique about 25-35% of the time and less often than that I will get smoke out of the opponent and generally shake him up for a more interesting post merge combat. Caveat......if I am going against a 4-cannon armed bird I maneover well clear without attmepting the bullet toss. Of course there are variables that come into play and change things up a bit.
PS: I have had similar tactics used against me so I know the routine. Most of the time I can tell when a Head On shot is not advised and I pass around the opponent for a more indepth SA....about 80% of my merges are aft quarters.
A person that does not agree with some one
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There is a very clear difference between a whine and a disagreement. I believe that both you and I know that difference.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The point of the merge is not to show your opponent by wiggling your wings and doing "nose bump" thing that you're not going to HO. The merge isn't the time to tip your lance in salute, it's the time to set up your maneuvers so when you meet the other guy in the merge, you'll be in a position to gain an angle.
If you were HO'd, then you really only have yourself to blame. You gave the other guy a shot and he took it, end of story. Instead of crying about being HO'd, you should have learned from your multiple mistakes and start creating seperation between you and the other guy on the merge.
ack-ack
ack,
You fairly summed up what my maneuver amounts to. I actually agree with you for the most part.
My intent wasn't to whine, it was to get the inputs that I have received. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have asked the community.
I'm going to take up some of the folks that have offered their help on the HO-avoidance merge. I probably need that help.
Not a big deal here. I don't know why I (or anyone) can't post a question about HO's without it being perceived as a whine. Nowhere did I suggest that someone did anything wrong by HO'ing me. I did feel like I wasted my time when I spent 10 minutes climbing out only to get sent to the tower on a merge. Like you said, that was MY fault, not the other guy's. I agree with you.
I've learned alot, thanks for the posts.
And, one last thing, I should have said that I perceived that I was HO'd in those engagements I mentioned. It's entirely possible that from their perspective I was giving them a legitimate front quarter shot. I didn't see it that way, but that's not to say that it wasn't like that. It would be nice to get their input, but I doubt anyone remembers their engagements with me for the most part. I don't often shine in the MA.
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Hmmmm, I am beginning to think that Toonces don't like me :cry
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Why would you say that?
You were in and out of the AvA last night too quick for me to hit you up for some help.
I'll be looking for you tonight, although I'm not sure I'm really enjoying the AvA too much right now.
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When I first started this game, oh at least 6 months ago - I got caught by the HO nearly every time. Always my fault, but I didnt know any better. Now, when merging, I expect it every single time (I dont care if this right or wrong - just the way it is). I nose down to make it more difficult, then when they miss, I loop back over the top and kill em - Unless its the better players, in which case we go into a looping fight, and they kill me - eventually!.
I got into a 3v1 a while ago - got HO'd - called out the guy who did it as he is a way better pilot than me - and he'd been ho'd a truck load during the time he was on and apologised for hoiing me. Must admit, if I was getting ho'd constantly and despite efforts couldnt avoid them all, i would most certainly up a plane that had the required cannons, and return the favour - basically, we're all human, all ego driven and all like to win - thats what makes this game so much fun and makes us all act like dorks at some stage/time.
I prefer not to ho, but will if I'm outnumbered or fired on first - as always, depends on the circumstances/variables at the time.
If other people want to ho, help yourself - not my cup of tea, but you pays yer money, you takes yer chance!!
Wurzel
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Unless I'm flying at stall speeds I always avoid a ho and usually end up with an advantageous position.. As soon as someone comes to ho me I know it's gonna be an easy fight unless they run away...
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Head on, quarter, six, top or bottom... if it's in your sights and you don't shoot, you may have just passed up a chance for a kill, or worse yet, set yourself up to be killed. Don't worry about how your opponent got there, just shoot. If you HO someone, they were there in your sights, as you were in their's anyway. The players that get mad enough to complain are just mad because they envisioned a cold merge followed by a split-s coupled with a skid while dropping their flaps and gear to drop on your 6. You spoiled it by going for the HO shot and probably came out the victor (victors rarely complain). If anyone wishes to avoid a HO, they shouldn't have any problem doing so. If you are waiting until someone gets within 1K to see if they are going to HO, you waited too long.
Sound about right?
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Am I good enough to tell when he's gonna HO?.......................NO.
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I can't help but notice that the virtual pilots I admire and attempt to learn from and emulate all avoid the HO and just want to have a good dogfight.
most of the other opinions come from people who are not fun to fight, don't put up much of a fight, and don't seem to care that they aren't improving in the game.
I think I see a pattern.... :noid
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Originally posted by bongaroo
I can't help but notice that the virtual pilots I admire and attempt to learn from and emulate all avoid the HO and just want to have a good dogfight.
most of the other opinions come from people who are not fun to fight, don't put up much of a fight, and don't seem to care that they aren't improving in the game.
I think I see a pattern.... :noid
Bingo, now they will call you a whiner and tell you to go to the DA :lol
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Ever thought maybe those players you are trying to emulate make up only a small portion of your potential learning experience in AH? Are you whining? Not yet, but close. I see it as just expressing your focus and interest in AH. Best monogamous dogfights are found in the DA.
Oink
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Originally posted by bongaroo
I can't help but notice that the virtual pilots I admire and attempt to learn from and emulate all avoid the HO and just want to have a good dogfight.
most of the other opinions come from people who are not fun to fight, don't put up much of a fight, and don't seem to care that they aren't improving in the game.
I think I see a pattern.... :noid
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map. Fighters are just a tool for doing this. I don't believe you are whinning, I just feel you are mistaking the object of this game with that of an arcade game where virtual pilots compete for a higher score by superior skill. Here you must be fairly proficient in fighters, bombers & GVs to be good at the game. The object is to win the war, not spend 10 or 20 or even 30 minutes in a "good" fight... just kill the target and move-on.
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Originally posted by A8balls
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map.
Oh really? Is it?
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Not everyone plays the game for the same reasons, though - and some of us play the game for with different intent and towards different goals at different times.
I'll sign in some nights, and I'll find the "war" interesting, and will fly more towards that end - more attack missions, or bomber intercept, etc.
Other nights, I couldn't give 2 snots about the "war", and instead fly solely for killing other fighter pilots.
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Originally posted by A8balls
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map.
I don't think so. Read the "what were the old days like" thread. In the old days there was very little base taking, very little GVing, and very little bombing. It was ALL about the fight, all air to air combat, thats all that mattered, and life was good. :D
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Originally posted by A8balls
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map. Fighters are just a tool for doing this. I don't believe you are whinning, I just feel you are mistaking the object of this game with that of an arcade game where virtual pilots compete for a higher score by superior skill. Here you must be fairly proficient in fighters, bombers & GVs to be good at the game. The object is to win the war, not spend 10 or 20 or even 30 minutes in a "good" fight... just kill the target and move-on.
the "thrill" of hording and vulching a base is nothing compared to the rush of a good fight. but enough bickering about how i should be playing like you want to play and back to the topic.
HOing is just plain boring and a waste of both players time
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Originally posted by A8balls
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map. Fighters are just a tool for doing this. I don't believe you are whinning, I just feel you are mistaking the object of this game with that of an arcade game where virtual pilots compete for a higher score by superior skill. Here you must be fairly proficient in fighters, bombers & GVs to be good at the game. The object is to win the war, not spend 10 or 20 or even 30 minutes in a "good" fight... just kill the target and move-on.
Your goal is to win the map. It is not the goal of the game. The goal of the game is to supply entertainment to a group of folks be that furballing, bombing, ship bombardment or whatever.
Reset means everyone has to leave the room and wait a few minutes to get back on...... nothing more... nothing less.
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Originally posted by A8balls
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map. Fighters are just a tool for doing this. I don't believe you are whinning, I just feel you are mistaking the object of this game with that of an arcade game where virtual pilots compete for a higher score by superior skill. Here you must be fairly proficient in fighters, bombers & GVs to be good at the game. The object is to win the war, not spend 10 or 20 or even 30 minutes in a "good" fight... just kill the target and move-on.
So you see the goal of the game is to hurry up and get back to the beginning as fast as possible?
He who controls the most pixels the fastests wins....er....wait a minute...
With that logic, it would make sense for no one to up on one side. If they all sit in th tower and don't worry about a good fight, they win too because they get to the do over as fast as you do!:aok
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Originally posted by waystin2
Best monogamous dogfights are found in the DA.
Not true but a very common misconception.
1. In the DA you find 1 pilot and ask him to fight under so and so terms
2. You usually know what type of plane you will be against
3. After 2 or 3 runs you you know how your opponent will fly and what you should do to counter
4. it is static
In an MA you never know what plane you will run into, who the pilot is and what is skill is, what his set of manuvers will be, not sure if he will HO, and when a second plane may help him engage or fly around but stay out.....a lot of unknowns that makes it exciting.
I very hardly ever go to the DA but usually could not care less about "reseting the map". If asked to help take a base I will. I may even try to sneak one just for the excitement of sneaking it. Some people just want a good fight with unknown variables. win or loose.
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Originally posted by WWM
Not true but a very common misconception.
1. In the DA you find 1 pilot and ask him to fight under so and so terms
2. You usually know what type of plane you will be against
3. After 2 or 3 runs you you know how your opponent will fly and what you should do to counter
4. it is static
In an MA you never know what plane you will run into, who the pilot is and what is skill is, what his set of manuvers will be, not sure if he will HO, and when a second plane may help him engage or fly around but stay out.....a lot of unknowns that makes it exciting.
I very hardly ever go to the DA but usually could not care less about "reseting the map". If asked to help take a base I will. I may even try to sneak one just for the excitement of sneaking it. Some people just want a good fight with unknown variables. win or loose.
:aok
Not to mention that insisting on taking a 50-50 shot does nothing about winning the war. It only gets you to the tower 50% of the time
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Originally posted by dedalos
:aok
Not to mention that insisting on taking a 50-50 shot does nothing about winning the war. It only gets you to the tower 50% of the time
Unpossible.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Unpossible.
I still like Hub better :furious
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hU|3 is so 1337
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Cobia posted this in the "Film and Screenshots" Forum.
It's short, but a great display of what some of us have been talking about.
Cobia is lower in a A-20.
An La-5 dives down for the merge.
Cobia sets up for a lead turn and at the same time positioning to avoid an HO attempt.
La-5 does a "lazy" merge (or crappy merge).
Cobia gets off a front-quarter deflection shot ... BOOM.
A thing of beauty.
Originally posted by cobia38
just testing the photobucket link
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c150/cobia38/?action=view¤t=a20-vs-la5.flv
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Hmm! I believe the only reason folks get mad at being HOd, is when the text buffer displays so&so shot you down <-- and this person is a vet cartoon pilot, it sends you over the top! As I've said before being HOd really isn't the issue. Vet cartoon pilots don't usually get successfully HOd by NOOBS. All NOOBS HO ! even the vet cartoon pilots HOd when in there NOOBERY stage, but the vet HOage is intense and very previlent, and many times explained away as front quarter :rofl So I guess when a plane shows front quarter even slightly, quick rudder kick and BANG is OK ? well probably only if you not the reciever;) Winning fixes many things and feelings! The vet cartoon pilot who takes this snap shot when its obvious < " and it always is " that the other is showing NO JOY is the same one that will be whinin about being HOd by the same shot next time it happens to them:rofl It is all very funny and hypocritical! <--- AND THIS IS WHY FOLKS GET MAD ABOUT BEING HOED!!
NOOBS HO, VETS CAN AVOID IT AND ALWAYS SHOULD !
OK Im ready let me have it you vet cartoon pilots
:noid
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Originally posted by A8balls
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map. Fighters are just a tool for doing this. I don't believe you are whinning, I just feel you are mistaking the object of this game with that of an arcade game where virtual pilots compete for a higher score by superior skill. Here you must be fairly proficient in fighters, bombers & GVs to be good at the game. The object is to win the war, not spend 10 or 20 or even 30 minutes in a "good" fight... just kill the target and move-on.
Please show anything from HiTech that states that "taking bases, winning the war and resetting the map" is the goal of the game? I'll make it easy on you because you won't find anything from HiTech stating those are the goals of the game.
However, you will find posts from HiTech that state the goal of the game is to simulate air combat using planes from World War II. The other features such as attacking bases and base captures were put in place to help facilitate air combat by creating fights in which we can fly our planes to and duke it out.
Your goal in this game maybe to win the war and reset the map but it's not a goal shared by me or HiTech.
ack-ack
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i always expect my opponent to ho me.
and its easy to avoid because you goto figure if they ho u they are a skilless noob and whats the chance of them hitting a deflection shot.
5 seconds later im on there 6, 10 secs there dead.
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Originally posted by A8balls
The goal of the game is to win by taking bases and resetting the map. Fighters are just a tool for doing this. I don't believe you are whinning, I just feel you are mistaking the object of this game with that of an arcade game where virtual pilots compete for a higher score by superior skill. Here you must be fairly proficient in fighters, bombers & GVs to be good at the game. The object is to win the war, not spend 10 or 20 or even 30 minutes in a "good" fight... just kill the target and move-on.
Wow.
You could not be further from the truth.
The "goal" of AcesHigh is Aerial Combat.
This has been stated by HiTech in the past.
Winning the war, base captures, bombers, GV's, etc. are merely sideshows to aerial combat.
The "Winning the War is the point of AcesHigh" imho is 1/2 the problem we have in the arenas.
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If your bogey is still pointed at your nose at d1500, chances are he's lining up a head on.
**** There is one rule in combat.
Rule #1, Kill the enemy first.
HOing is part of combat. I'm not a good stick, so I don't intend to let somebody on my six if I can help it. Considering opposing sides approach each other from head on about 80% of the time, HOing is pretty normal.
It's also normal in real combat. If you've seen Dogfights on History Channel, they've showcased head on passes several times.
my 2 cents.
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Originally posted by fjaloma
If your bogey is still pointed at your nose at d1500, chances are he's lining up a head on.
**** There is one rule in combat.
Rule #1, Kill the enemy first.
HOing is part of combat. I'm not a good stick, so I don't intend to let somebody on my six if I can help it. Considering opposing sides approach each other from head on about 80% of the time, HOing is pretty normal.
It's also normal in real combat. If you've seen Dogfights on History Channel, they've showcased head on passes several times.
my 2 cents.
Geeesh ... another poisoned by the History Channel.
Yes the have showed and discussed head on passes, but don't think for 1 second that head on passes were the "norm".
If you watched closely and paid attention, head passes were performed in unusual circumstances and also with particular guns.
The episode on the P-40 showed that quite a few of those guys used the "head on" shot ... and they slightly touched upon why.
The reason that they felt somewhat safe was due to the poor ballistics of the Japanese guns and the long distance shooting of the .50 cals.
They could fire off a burst of .50 cals, head on, long before the Japanese guns could hit them. Don't think for 1 second that those guns were firing "head on" at 100 yards out as an everyday event ... because they weren't.
Don't think for 1 second that real WW II pilots, flying real WW II planes, against real WW II bullets, would fly around taking HO passes with the frequency that our HO artist do in Aces High ... unless the conditions were favorable or the conditions were desperate.
Justifying the frequency of the HO artist and their HO passes in Aces High because real WW II pilots did it is ridiculous to say the least.
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So, since you guys know about valid tactics in real life, how many HOs do you walk away undamaged, on average? 1,2,3,,,,,10? Would you take that chance in real life? Nop, you'd just point nose down and head home. Every one is a hero when there is no penalty for stupidity.:rofl
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theres nothing wrong with HOing. the real pilots in WWII HOed
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Originally posted by Pannono
theres nothing wrong with HOing. the real pilots in WWII HOed
too funnay ... :rofl
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Originally posted by toonces3
ack,
You fairly summed up what my maneuver amounts to. I actually agree with you for the most part.
My intent wasn't to whine, it was to get the inputs that I have received. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have asked the community.
I'm going to take up some of the folks that have offered their help on the HO-avoidance merge. I probably need that help.
Not a big deal here. I don't know why I (or anyone) can't post a question about HO's without it being perceived as a whine. Nowhere did I suggest that someone did anything wrong by HO'ing me. I did feel like I wasted my time when I spent 10 minutes climbing out only to get sent to the tower on a merge. Like you said, that was MY fault, not the other guy's. I agree with you.
I've learned alot, thanks for the posts.
And, one last thing, I should have said that I perceived that I was HO'd in those engagements I mentioned. It's entirely possible that from their perspective I was giving them a legitimate front quarter shot. I didn't see it that way, but that's not to say that it wasn't like that. It would be nice to get their input, but I doubt anyone remembers their engagements with me for the most part. I don't often shine in the MA.
I doubt seriously that I HO'ed....I'm usally the one giving the benift of the HO doubt and wind up paying for it.
Think maybe a bad merge gave me a good deflection shot?
Had someone once call me on an HO as I ripped his tail off LOL
Kinda hard to HO when I'm on your 6
Wish you had the film
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I used to try avoiding the HO shots but got tired of getting shot while atempting to avoid them so now I just HO and usually win....
My latest HO kills were in my Uber leet Spit MK1, I turned tward a Typh and you could almost hear him giggling at just the thought of my lil spit 1 HOing him... I bet the giggling was replaced with a line of cussing as I filled his pilot full of 303's and BOOM go's the Typh. I'm sorry but I had to laugh about that one though my fellow Bish seemed to think I was crazy..
Right after killing the Typh an LA7 came at me and what do you think the first move was? Why the HO of course, I acccepted the challenge to joust. I got some nice pings on him but saw no visible dammage. We twisted and turned for a few rounds untill he managed to get far enough out that he could come in for another HO attempt. He did manage to hit me enough to bring my uber ride down but I got the kill befor I hit the ground... :rofl
You can even find me HOing LA7's in my D3A of doom with limited success but I am willing to wager i hold the record for most consecutive HO passes survived by a D3A VS LA7 and that was 4 or 5, then the P51 came in from my high 6 as I was setting up for the next onel. :D
See Ho's can be fun and quite entertaining if you fly the right plane....
:aok
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I cant answer this question. First I have to run into someone who doesnt HO.
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If you don't turn and fly straight at your opponent then you won,t get HO'd. If your opponent dosn't turn and fly straight at you, then you won't get HO'd. Seems simple enough to me, it take two to tango. The topic of "they HO'd in WWII, I saw it on the History Channel", is not quite true. Did they HO in WWII, yes, was it an encouraged form of fighting, no. The HO was an act of desperation, done by a pilot who figuered he was already dead and was trying a last ditch effort to save his buddies. I have talked to WWII pilots in the past, and they wanted to stay away from the enemy guns, flying directly into a gun sight was considered suicide. In reality, a HO was real death, here it is going into the tower and trying again. There is no REALITY in this game, just a simulation of what a WWII pilot MIGHT have been like, if these were real bullets, people wouldn't HO, but there not, so people HO. It is part of the GAME, get used to it. Just my 2cents.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
However, you will find posts from HiTech that state the goal of the game is to simulate air combat using planes from World War II. The other features such as attacking bases and base captures were put in place to help facilitate air combat by creating fights in which we can fly our planes to and duke it out.
Your goal in this game maybe to win the war and reset the map but it's not a goal shared by me or HiTech.
ack-ack
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Well I don't HO .... but if we are fighting and you pull off because you fear a HO may happen... I won't let up.
Only time I get stuck in a HO is outnumbered and strung out. Otherwise .. I never let it happen.
Someone attempting to HO me gives me a huge advantage over them. This means they aren't even trying to get on my 6.
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From 'Yakovlev Aces of World War 2'-
"...Unexpectedly, the surface of my fuselage cracked. "now, Ivan", I thought to myself, "you've had it". Exceeeding maximum G-load, I banked tightly to the left. My eyes grew dark. I released the stick to avoid spinning. I saw two Fw 190's following me into the vertical. I moved into position for a head-on attack so they couldn't get on my tail. I opened fire and, like balls, the enemy fighters broke from me to both sides. Making a reversal and then going into a steep dive, I headed for home, and safety."
Apparently ho'ing was a tactic, but it was to get the enemy to break (surely they wouldnt be stupid enough to risk their life in a HO) and then escape to safety- not shoot the enemy down.
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The move I find that helps is when he's about 1.5k out I point my nose down to go into an Immelmann, if the other player is good he usually wont go in for the ho.
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Face shot is a valid tactic in the arenas because life is cheap in the arenas.
This is a game not RL. It has taken me a long time to come to terms with getting shot in the kisser, but it also liberated me to take the same shot when I feel confident in not getting return fire. Picture a 5-10 degree off center shot. I reserve the right to HO, even if I usually don't take it.
The trick to a straight full on merge shot is to get a plane with 50 cals or Hizookas and open up at 1500 with a quick burst then lead turn, albeit with no separation.
All's fair in Love and War and especially in this game. Otherwise we wouldn't get interupted in a 1 vs1, gangraped by a gaggle of La7s, cherry-picked, vulched, camped, dragged and bagged, rammed, etc...
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There has been a bunch of info on "avoiding the HO", and not "accepting a HO". Some of you may be a bit confused on what this means. To me it doesn't mean that as you fly strait toward the enemy you wiggle your plane with rudder, or do a tight barrel roll to spoil their shot. While those things work if you happen to get into that position, its NOT the position you WANT to be in.
No, to me if your thinking like that, your already in trouble. The picture below is of a HO. At 3k, both planes turn in and point their noses at each other. Best hope here is a cold merge (no guns) but most likely, both planes are firring from 1k out till they pass each other or one blows up. In this case you have "accepted" the HO, and have every intention of going for a HO.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/accept.jpg)
In the picture below, you are in the blue plane and have decided to "avoid" the HO. This is what the "Pros" are talking about when they say they are going for position and love when people try to HO them. Even if the enemy plane tries to track you the best he can hope for is an off angle shot, and they have given up a lot of position by going for the HO. You are now ahead of them in maneuvers, and have them in front of your 3-9 line.
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii253/maddogjoe_photos/avoid.jpg)
Avoid the HO, go for position, you have better odds at coming out ahead !