Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Chubbie on January 16, 2008, 12:47:14 AM
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It seems to me that if someone wants to go for a HO shot they will always get a decent one, it may be a low % and I might just be unlucky. I've been filming my fights and I'm about to just turn into a HOtard because 90% of the time I get killed by people who HO me when I'm going for the merge. In the films they are pulling off stupid shots while pulling very high g's. If they miss they lose because they're giving me more than 45 degree advantages, I've tried spacing it horizontally, vertically, I've tried to make it so they have to red out to hit me (they do, and they still hit me). My luck must be terrible or I need to just HO people. Yes I know how to merge, yes I know how you're supposed to avoid a HO, but it seems to me that avoiding it totally is impossible.
Heck when I went out to HO there wasn't a single person that could merge at me without giving me a shot.
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How much spacing do you get? It's quite easy for me to avoid a HO, not to mention when I set them up for a lead turn, so I guess you just havn't got your spacing/timing right?
Just throwing ideas out there, but maybe try lots of spacing, and working your way in by decreasing the amount of spacing each time until you find what works.
But really, if you know they're intent on HO'ing, set them up for a lead turn, and (this takes time to fine tune) judge right before they are going to fire, and add some vertical movement, and then barrel roll or whatever you want turning into them and try to gain the position behind their 3/9. One you get it down it's very easy to avoid a HO, or their shot when you set them up for a lead turn.
Good luck, don't get frustrated.
donkey
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Originally posted by Chubbie
It seems to me that if someone wants to go for a HO shot they will always get a decent one, it may be a low % and I might just be unlucky. I've been filming my fights and I'm about to just turn into a HOtard because 90% of the time I get killed by people who HO me when I'm going for the merge. In the films they are pulling off stupid shots while pulling very high g's. If they miss they lose because they're giving me more than 45 degree advantages, I've tried spacing it horizontally, vertically, I've tried to make it so they have to red out to hit me (they do, and they still hit me). My luck must be terrible or I need to just HO people. Yes I know how to merge, yes I know how you're supposed to avoid a HO, but it seems to me that avoiding it totally is impossible.
Heck when I went out to HO there wasn't a single person that could merge at me without giving me a shot.
it's karma dude!!! that's what ya get for chasin a guy(runstang) and vulching his perfectly good landing in his undamaged shiny purty airplane:D
<>
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You need to work on your timing a bit chubie.
HO'rs land bullets on me maybe a handfull of times (almost never any serious damage from it) out of the countless HO's I get per tour.
It's timing and practice. The key is to time your "move" to when they have a shot. If you do it right, they are shooting at thin air and you are 1/2 way around to their 6 before they let off the trigger and reaquire ya'.
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Post a film or two of yours here. Maybe what you think is a good merge really isn't. It will also show your timing, and people can let you know if they think your too late or not.
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lol a lot of my merges i go for ho position until hes about 800 out i fire 1/4 sec burst and turn really quickly into my first move. usualy he flys into my bullets misses me or i have position.
edit:
i fly the nik a lot and people just asume im gonna ho them anyway so why make them wrong lol
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Originally posted by goober69
lol a lot of my merges i go for ho position until hes about 800 out i fire 1/4 sec burst and turn really quickly into my first move. usualy he flys into my bullets misses me or i have position.
edit:
i fly the nik a lot and people just asume im gonna ho them anyway so why make them wrong lol
this attitude is what makes this game so boring and one dimensional sometimes.
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Check out toonces3's thread, "Are you good enough to tell when a player won't HO?" in the General Discussion board. There is some useful info on this topic.
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Originally posted by goober69
lol a lot of my merges i go for ho position until hes about 800 out i fire 1/4 sec burst and turn really quickly into my first move. usualy he flys into my bullets misses me or i have position.
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i fly the nik a lot and people just asume im gonna ho them anyway so why make them wrong lol
This is what is killing the "game" First your attitude "everyone thinks going to HO anyway, so I do", is a poor excuse. You should WANT to do better, not be just another "dweeb" (and yes that is what the term comes from, people doing lame things).
Your score shows your attitude and lack of skill. Less than 1/2 a kill per sortie, and all but 2 in cannon rides. This game isn't about brute strength...he with the biggest guns wins the most..... no its much more about skill and learning to use your plane.
If your waiting till 800 to turn out from the HO, why bother? your already in it ! I turn out around 2k and go for separation. Of course the enemy plane will turn toward me going for as much of a HO as they can get. At 1500 out I start my move, which ever move looks like it will put me in a good position due to his angle off and speed.
Hook up with a trainer for a few lessons. Spend a couple hours training, then a couple hours practicing what they tell you, and you'll easily double if not triple your kill per sortie the very next time your up. You'll be amased at how easier it is to kill when you set them up for a shot!
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Originally posted by goober69
lol a lot of my merges i go for ho position until hes about 800 out i fire 1/4 sec burst and turn really quickly into my first move. usualy he flys into my bullets misses me or i have position.
edit:
i fly the nik a lot and people just asume im gonna ho them anyway so why make them wrong lol
Everything in this post is just another shining example of the puss boil that sits on the face of Aces High.
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I spend much of my time in an A-20 and I rarely if ever get HO'd...
As suggested I'd post a film or two...
Here are my thoughts...
HO avoidance starts at about 4.0 out as part of a fundementally correct merge. Ideally both horizontal and vertical seperation are desired. This might mean flying at a 45 degree angle to the con or more. Your approach to the con should have gentle but measurable "arc" which would require the bogie to alter heading to maintain a true "HO".
I would guess that you have either an intial approach that is "straight at" the con or parellel offset and then "pull" thru the guys flight path setting up a FQ shot for him...(just a guess)...
You need to seperate the HO from the true FQ shot. Most folks are like noober...goober. They think they're cute but all they do is hasten there own death. fly right at me in an A-20 till 800 and unless your in numbs class (not that he ever does that) in a nikki your dead and dont know it yet.
A good opponent will set up a hook with a FQ option. I'd say your getting hit more from guys who are flying a good merge and your pulling early into a shot window. The guy flying "right at you" is harmless 90%+ of the time. Its the guy who looks for seperation and then is flying a "banana" style approach to you that says "valdez" is coming your way. If you dont react that gentle curve is giving 20 degree's or more...add a bit of rudder and throttle and your looking at a 45 degree FQ shot and a solid rear hemisphere lag pursuit if it misses.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Everything in this post is just another shining example of the puss boil that sits on the face of Aces High.
dang dude i was just kidding lmao
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add one of these ;)
or one of these :aok
or maybe even one of these :rolleyes:
to help us see your trying to be sarcastic, otherwise it just looked like bad advice given in the training section, which easily gets people riled up.
K?
:aok
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Chubbie, it is all in separation, timing, and reading the merge angles. I can best explain it as a window you need to pass through at every merge in order to dodge or minimize the HO shot. The problem is that the window is not the same place in every merge. Unless your maneuver options are limited by speed, there is almost always a window somewhere though.
Couple thoughts...One is you can swing by and try to catch a trainer, and any of them could tell you what adjustments to your merge approach you need to make to minimize the HO. Another, is that when you do find an opponent who flies like they want to avoid the HO, make a note of how they position themselves, and how effective their positioning is...try to emulate what they do in your own merges.
By the way, the hook concept mentioned is probably the most common one used. The trick is that where you bend the hook is dependent on you spotting where your opponent can and can't get his guns at a given moment. Sounds to me like you have to concept of what to do, and just need to get the timing down.
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Well I have all of one days flying fighters under my belt, with about 6 or 7 sorties, "during which I actually survived long enough to zoom past others about 8 times head on". 7 of the 8 times I HO'd with someone they shot at me. I didn't do the same cause I thought it was proper etiquette not to do so. Eventually this inner-voice found me to up LA-7s, spray everyone that came past in my 12, and then zoom away like a dweeb.
So far Ive resisted cause I actually want to learn to fly something other then bombers. But I got news for you. This anti-HO thingy? It aint working.
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Originally posted by bongaroo
add one of these ;)
or one of these :aok
or maybe even one of these :rolleyes:
to help us see your trying to be sarcastic, otherwise it just looked like bad advice given in the training section, which easily gets people riled up.
K?
:aok
lol thats what the lol's were for oops
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Rich, keep at it m8. As I said in the "are you good enough to know when he's going to ho" thread, I used to get ho'd a lot (every single time..lol)
I now take it for granted that I'll get ho'd, and my basic merge (not every time tho as it makes you predictable) is to line myseslf up as *if* I'm going to ho back, until you get to 2k - 1.5k out (timing is everything as you dont want to let them know what you are up to), I then go into a dive (shallow, but enough to take my nose off of them and start a gentle turn (and I mean gentle), once they miss the shot (most of them do, unless its a vet and Im screwed then anyway...lol), its easy enough to loop over em, roll up and over or some over fancy dan move I have no idea how to explain. I still die a lot, am by no means a skillful pilot, but I get a fair share of kills now and then - and I dont get frustrated by people trying to ho me...
The above isnt the only way, but thats what I do.....ymmv.
Wurzel
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Rich, glad to hear you're finally taking up the challenge of flying something other than bombers. It will give you a whole new perspective on the game and the discussions on the BBs.
As to HO avoidance, if you dont intend to stick around and fight the guy, a simple nose down manouver or barrel role is often enough to throw off his shot. You fly through and, since he has to reverse 180, you're gone by the time he does.
If you plan on fighting think of it in these terms; If you both fly straight at each other (or close to it), you aren't setting up to aquire his six. You can't. At best, after the merge, if you both turn (immel, etc.), you're probably going to end up facing one another nose to nose again. And the cycle continues until someone breaks it (probably to their detriment), extends or wins a HO or high forward deflection shot.
So, to avoid this, you need to create seperation (vertical or horizontal) so that your already turning for his six as you merge. That might mean you have to turn out, briefly showing your belly but that's ok if the timing is right. Roll out, then back in, or dive and pull back up. Either way he'll have to turn into you and the fight begins. At least you're past the HO and now it's time to use your acm to gain angles. There is still the possibility of a high deflection forward shot on the merge but you'll just have to learn what that looks like, and the angles needed to avoid it (or take it).
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Ya thats actually the problem Im having. Its in using the views, and keeping my eyes on the enemy, and, setting up the fight in 3D space. Actually flying the fighters is easy, I at least learned that much from flying bombers and in that regard its a step I wont have to first take.
But Ive also been losing control to much because the various fighters, of course, have different handling characteristics. With bombers that much less a problem because you just aren't pulling the same maneuvers. Its all very different and like i said the biggest problem is keeping enemies in views and setting up the fight in 3D space. That and learning the strengths of different fighters.
I'll say this tho. Flying the P-38L is like driving a Cadillac. Until you force it into a spin that is. I can spend an hour in the TA just zooming thru the clouds in the 38, its just that lovely an aircraft to fly. Flying the LA7 is like flying a quick knife fighter. I really like the Hurricane and to a little lesser extent the spit.
I probably will never be a really, really good fighter stick. I will probably always like flying bombers more. But I do at least want to learn them and consider it a necessary step to learn the game. Its painful tho Ive been getting shot down almost every time.
And Ive also learned why the more established players spend a lot of time in the DA. There are a lot of cheap shots taken in the MA.
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Rich, I'm in the same boat, I'll never be a really really good fighter stick - but its fun trying to learn :D . I fly buffs once in a while, and find it interesting as hell, but boring at the same time (go figure). I dont enjoy it as much as a fighter, but each to their own. Keep on with the fighters - the only *tip* as such I have, is to pick just one, keep flying it until you know its characteristics - then fly it lots more (I like the Spit 5 personally - not fast enough to run away, but good enough turner to make it difficult for others).
I'd be happy to meet up with ya in the TA anytime - not that I can impart a lot of knowledge (I dont have any lol) - but it could give you some time to practise moving away, shooting etc. Will be away for 3 weeks or so, but if ya wanna go in the TA, lemme know mate.
Wurzel
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Rich, try flying off-line. Take off from one of the fields, then select an object on the field. Go through all types of manouvers keeping that field object in sight. Once you have that down pat go up to the drones. Pick one out and start manouvering all around it, coming from above, below, in front and behind, rolling around it, etc. while always keeping it in view.
The view system has to become second nature to you so you're not even thinking about it in combat.
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Rich,
Avoiding the HO is actually pretty easy. Anytime you see me up in the MA feel free to ride along for a hop or two. I'm kind of going back to the hog a bit more but still fly the A-20 alot. Trust me if you can avoid the HO in an A-20 you can avoid it in anything...
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Thanks for the advice and the offers fellas.
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congrats rich on getting in fighters small step in a big journey lol
ive gotten to where i rarely fly bombers if i do its so i can take a break for 30 min while my lancs get to alt lol jk
really i think ive done under ten bomber sorties this month i was doing more but general time constraints and such
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Everything in this post is just another shining example of the puss boil that sits on the face of Aces High.
1. Wow!
2. I'm new here so forgive me if I've taken some of your responses out of context, but .....
3. Wow!
Some of you guys seem overly harsh. It's a freekin game! And even if you all think you are the reincarnation of Pappy Boyington, don’t you think your opinion would come off a bit more respectable if it were couched less in childish anger and more in seasoned mentorship?
I’ve come here to learn, but I’m not sure I’d want to listen to people who react this way….ABOUT A GAME!
All of that being said....why all the emotion about HO's?
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Originally posted by Lance48
1. Wow!
2. I'm new here so forgive me if I've taken some of your responses out of context, but .....
3. Wow!
Some of you guys seem overly harsh. It's a freekin game! And even if you all think you are the reincarnation of Pappy Boyington, don’t you think your opinion would come off a bit more respectable if it were couched less in childish anger and more in seasoned mentorship?
I’ve come here to learn, but I’m not sure I’d want to listen to people who react this way….ABOUT A GAME!
All of that being said....why all the emotion about HO's?
I was only referring to that one individuals post ... not the whole thread.
The thread was started with the intention of "helping" him avoid HOs. The post that I came down on did nothing to address the question, but rather endorsed the using of an HO.
The HO is an overused attack within Aces High, which IMHO, is not necessarily ruining the game, but it sure doesn't add anything to it.
Why are the angst about HOs ?
You almost answered your own question ... it's a game.
With that in mind, then why constantly (as a good amount of pilots do) go for the HO ? ... it's practically a 50 / 50 chance of dieing everytime you do it.
Where is the fun in that ? ... for both you and your opponent.
This is a "game" all about Air-to-Air combat ... so why not try to excel at just that ? Running around HOing everybody and anybody in your gunsight is far from Air-to-Air combat.
If your gonna take a 50 / 50 shot and die with those odds ... then why the hell not take it to the next level and see if you can actually use the strengths of your aircraft and take advantage of the weaknesses of your opposing aircraft to see if you can actually "fight" in that plane.
I mean, if your gonna die, you might as well die trying your best ... and in the long run ... with a goal of actually trying to master Air-to-Air combat and not being afraid to die ... you will eventually excel.
People who constantly HO ... NEVER excel.
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Thank you
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what he said ^^^^ :)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Rich, glad to hear you're finally taking up the challenge of flying something other than bombers. It will give you a whole new perspective on the game and the discussions on the BBs.
As to HO avoidance, if you dont intend to stick around and fight the guy, a simple nose down manouver or barrel role is often enough to throw off his shot. You fly through and, since he has to reverse 180, you're gone by the time he does.
]
1)i generally WANT to fight..for which reason i try to avoid the HO.....and really, most don't need to HO me to win a fight(or they could really suck THAT bad?)
If you plan on fighting think of it in these terms; If you both fly straight at each other (or close to it), you aren't setting up to aquire his six. You can't. At best, after the merge, if you both turn (immel, etc.), you're probably going to end up facing one another nose to nose again. And the cycle continues until someone breaks it (probably to their detriment), extends or wins a HO or high forward deflection shot.
2)i find myself in this a lot.........and sometimes even when i don't fly straight at the guy/..i try an off angle immel, or i try to dive under, or under and off to his side, rolling bakc into him....but find he seems to be able to bring his nose round faster than me.....
So, to avoid this, you need to create seperation (vertical or horizontal) so that your already turning for his six as you merge. That might mean you have to turn out, briefly showing your belly but that's ok if the timing is right. Roll out, then back in, or dive and pull back up. Either way he'll have to turn into you and the fight begins. At least you're past the HO and now it's time to use your acm to gain angles. There is still the possibility of a high deflection forward shot on the merge but you'll just have to learn what that looks like, and the angles needed to avoid it (or take it).
3) now the problem i get here.....when i DO try to create seperation, it seems as if the bogie turns directly into me 99% of the time....and i STILL end up in the situation above...unles i run away(which i hate as i want the fight..win or lose, THAT'S the fun)
now slightly off topic......shuffler......sinc e i figure you're reading these....if i sounded like an assss last night, i apologize......the whole time i knew it must've ben someone good as we couldn't bait you into coming down and fighting no matter how we tried. i was just getting very frustrated, as i couldn't find any fights that didn't have the bogies at a min of 10k alt, or ganging....i still don't know how to fight a higher enemy, and don't think i'm far enough along to learn yet. i actually hate that map as it breeds last nights styp of situations......i climb to 10k, bogies at 14 or 15...next sortie i go to 15, bogies at 18 or 20k....i go to 20k, and they're STILL dots above me........sooooo....sorry dude<>
1ltcap
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Originally posted by humble
Rich,
Avoiding the HO is actually pretty easy. Anytime you see me up in the MA feel free to ride along for a hop or two. I'm kind of going back to the hog a bit more but still fly the A-20 alot. Trust me if you can avoid the HO in an A-20 you can avoid it in anything...
doesn't the A20 have something like 8 50's?? and people STILL try to HO ya???:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Lance48
1. Wow!
2. I'm new here so forgive me if I've taken some of your responses out of context, but .....
3. Wow!
Some of you guys seem overly harsh. It's a freekin game! And even if you all think you are the reincarnation of Pappy Boyington, don’t you think your opinion would come off a bit more respectable if it were couched less in childish anger and more in seasoned mentorship?
I’ve come here to learn, but I’m not sure I’d want to listen to people who react this way….ABOUT A GAME!
All of that being said....why all the emotion about HO's?
because they take almost 0 skill. imagine shooting a parked airplane with 6 50 cals? or 4 20MM hispanos. some of these guys are better than that.....and there's times when i don't get mad about being HO'd.......if it's a furball, and they're tryin to cap a base...and i up there and get vulched or HO'd...then so be it.........but the guys that HO in a 1-1..........sad.....just.....sad
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slapshot was right though i should have used some of these i was just kidding........:aok
:eek: :D
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Originally posted by goober69
slapshot was right though i should have used some of these i was just kidding........:aok
:eek: :D
Had your BBS ID matched your in-game ID, I would have recognized immediately who you were and I would have known that you were just kidding.
I have flown in situations with you enough to know that that is not how how you fly.
I wish people would use/create a BBS ids that match their in-game id.
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Originally posted by CAP1
If you plan on fighting think of it in these terms; If you both fly straight at each other (or close to it), you aren't setting up to aquire his six. You can't. At best, after the merge, if you both turn (immel, etc.), you're probably going to end up facing one another nose to nose again. And the cycle continues until someone breaks it (probably to their detriment), extends or wins a HO or high forward deflection shot.
2)i find myself in this a lot.........and sometimes even when i don't fly straight at the guy/..i try an off angle immel, or i try to dive under, or under and off to his side, rolling bakc into him....but find he seems to be able to bring his nose round faster than me.....
So, to avoid this, you need to create seperation (vertical or horizontal) so that your already turning for his six as you merge. That might mean you have to turn out, briefly showing your belly but that's ok if the timing is right. Roll out, then back in, or dive and pull back up. Either way he'll have to turn into you and the fight begins. At least you're past the HO and now it's time to use your acm to gain angles. There is still the possibility of a high deflection forward shot on the merge but you'll just have to learn what that looks like, and the angles needed to avoid it (or take it).
3) now the problem i get here.....when i DO try to create seperation, it seems as if the bogie turns directly into me 99% of the time....and i STILL end up in the situation above...unles i run away(which i hate as i want the fight..win or lose, THAT'S the fun)
Cap, the con is almost always going to try to keep his nose on you, or even lead a little, so I'm not surprised you're running into these situations. Timing is everything, from the time you turn out to the time you roll back in.
Picture this... cup both hands, then place the fingertips of each hand in the palms of the other. This is approximately the situation you are trying to create on the merge.
Now slide your fingertips to the ball of your hand. Notice that you are now locked in a nose to tail fight after just a short delay in your turn.
Now place your fingertips together. This is the nose to nose situation you get into when you turn in too soon.
I know this is pretty rudimentary but it illustrates the effects of timing on your initial moves.
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Today I started really thinking "separation". It was still ugly but I had a better day and started making some kills. The views are coming easier as well. Even had a few textbook dives to create separation, Immelmans, and ended up on the 6.
But the MA just isnt a good place to practice this stuff. I have found the 1 on 1 fights to be fewer, and more far between, then I thought they'd be.
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Your right lance
Just learn from the ones that are willing to teach like murdr
Leave the others alone they just want to get your "emontion up, intellect down".
My simple answer is: If you just kill on the merge, you don't get any other references. Most of the guys that cry HO don't even know what one is, and they are the ones that will turn thier tracers off and ho you.
Ho= both have target solutions.
Most of what gets cried about is not even close to a ho.
Keep it in context its the only way to sort through the trash talk...