Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Motherland on January 16, 2008, 06:29:21 PM
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This is in refrence to someone 'ditching' near a friendly field and the shooter-downer not getting any credit. Now, I know the automatic reaction will be "shoot till they go boom", but hear me out.
Ive had this happen, in memory, twice. The first time, I was in an Il-2. I was a pure fighter sortie, just having fun. I downed a Spitfire who was apparantly not paying any attention. The next target was a Pony. After engaging in a short fight, I got his engine and some control surfaces. He headed for the deck. I turned away (there wasnt any way I was getting him in an Il-2 anyway). 5 minutes later I realise I havent gotten my kill. I dive down to investegate. No pony. WTF? didnt realise what happened till much later.
Second time. I was in a furball-type situation. Im in a 109K4. Dive in on a 190A8. I fire. I see the 30mm hit sprite (which I keep a close eye out for, and I know what it looks like. I definately taterized him.) on the fuselage, so I break off. I climb, waiting for my kill message. Looking back down, I see me kill gliding toward the ground (I had only gotten the engine, it turns out). I loop around, and dive on the 190. I couldnt get a shot on him the first pass (he was to close to the ground) and by my second pass he had ditched. No kill.
My first thought, like many people who dont like a feature, was "get rid of it!"
But, I realized why the friendly territory thing was implemented. It makes sense that you can glide back home dead engine or for whatever reason and ditch without anyone getting kill credit, It probably happened more than once.
Then I thought, if you WERE over enemy territory, and you shot someone down, to the point where the airframe was useless (which it would be upon a belly land anyway), and you and your wingman saw the plane belly out, you would get kill credit, wouldnt you? Which, made me think. At first I thought this may be to complicated, but then I realised, it has already been implemented!
IF you ditch in friendly territory, and theres no enemies around, your fine. That would be a 'limp back home' type thing. BUT, if you belly out in friendly territory, AND there's enemies in the area, you ditch, but the person who shot you up gets the kill. We already have this in place for GV's. I think It would be a much better ditch parameter for aircraft also.
edited for spelling...
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yes you would if you rendered the plane un flyable aka you shot half his wing off turned him into a litlle piece of swiss cheese blew his tail off
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Originally posted by splitatom
yes you would if you rendered the plane un flyable aka you shot half his wing off turned him into a litlle piece of swiss cheese blew his tail off
"Can I get "when punctuation matters" for $400, Alex?"
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I absolutely agree that the way ditches works needs to be fixed. I've missed kills when the guy ditches on water. :p I've bailed out and ran across water, too. Anyway, the current system leads to unrealistic and unjust results.
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You all definitely have a point, but I think ditching is an essential part of the game (especially the realism part of it), which just needs to be reworked. If you were to take bailing out and/or ditching out of the game, suddenly it would become a whole lot less than what it is today.
This is just an idea (and one which I haven't thought about very much), but would it work if the system awards the kill based on what happens to the plane itself, rather than the pilot.
(BTW: I am usually far too lazy to bail out than walk back to a field, only to get a ditch. I sometimes bail out and end the sortie when I land in the parachute, but usually I just crash)
Yossarian
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IIRC if you bail the kill is awarded to whoever landed the most hits on you.
You can the tower out immediately once you open your 'chute.
If however you bail before any hits are landed on you I was under the impression a proxy kill was awarded to anyone close enough. If this is not the case then maybe it could be included.
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Originally posted by SD67
If however you bail before any hits are landed on you I was under the impression a proxy kill was awarded to anyone close enough. If this is not the case (...)
It is.
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so what's all the hoo-haa about?
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I look at it this way..... if the planes down, I won !!! After all its the fight that matters :aok
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Originally posted by SD67
so what's all the hoo-haa about?
If you belly land your plane and /.ef in friendly territory no one gets a kill. You only get a proxy (if target is in his territory) if the target crashes/dies on landing.
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If you damaged a plane and they ditch and you are within d2.5, you'll get the kill credit.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If you damaged a plane and they ditch and you are within d2.5, you'll get the kill credit.
...as long as the enemy con doesn't ditch in friendly territory ;)
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last night, got pinged in the fuel tanks causing a leak in my main tank. Reversed on the guy that did it and ended up chasing him as he *cough* extended trying to get to his friendly territory. I ended up running out of gas and was starting to set up to dead stick land near a friendly V base. As I rolled to a stop, saw the enemy come back to strafe me as I ditched, exiting out of my plane as he was d1.5 away and he got the kill credit. Yes, I was in my friendly territory.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
last night, got pinged in the fuel tanks causing a leak in my main tank. Reversed on the guy that did it and ended up chasing him as he *cough* extended trying to get to his friendly territory. I ended up running out of gas and was starting to set up to dead stick land near a friendly V base. As I rolled to a stop, saw the enemy come back to strafe me as I ditched, exiting out of my plane as he was d1.5 away and he got the kill credit. Yes, I was in my friendly territory.
ack-ack
I never have failed to ditch with enemies around when in friendly territory. I have never got any credit for a ditching enemy when inside hios friendly territory.
Some people do though confuse "inside own radar range" with being in "friendly territory". It's strictly based on distance to closest base/CV.
In your example it's probably a lag issue. You write that he continued to strafe you. So he did kill you on his FE while you jst seemd to make it on your's.
Happens to me a lot when towering out of Ostwinds when bombs are falling.
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I tell ya what gives me that warm an' fuzzy feelin. Its when I am ditching dead stich wheels on the grouond stopping and get strafed. MMmmm MMmmm Good there man. :furious
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And I'll be right there to give you some of the welcome home to mother earth lovin'... After one or two passes to let you get around to it of course ;)
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Originally posted by Lusche
I never have failed to ditch with enemies around when in friendly territory. I have never got any credit for a ditching enemy when inside hios friendly territory.
Some people do though confuse "inside own radar range" with being in "friendly territory". It's strictly based on distance to closest base/CV.
In your example it's probably a lag issue. You write that he continued to strafe you. So he did kill you on his FE while you jst seemd to make it on your's.
Happens to me a lot when towering out of Ostwinds when bombs are falling.
Never said he continued to strafe me since he wasn't in guns range yet when I exited, I said he was turning around to make a strafing pass as I was cruising to a stop dead stick after ditching.
No, I know the difference between in the radar coverage zone and friendly territory and it happened in friendly territory.
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Ack-Ack, what your'e giving is some rare counterexample that we don't know how to explain. That still doesn't invalidate the general rule that ditching in friendly territory = no kill.
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Since no one has, so far, backed up their experiences with film, or offered something from HTC, then declaring that one claim defines the parameters, while another is simply anecdotal and defies comprehension (merely because it conflicts with the first theory) isn't necessarily accurate.
No offense to anyone, and I'm not saying that this didn't happen, but the claims of "this happened to me, and this is how it works" are often repeated on these boards, and are often wrong. Film or something concrete would be much more useful in this instance.
Anywho, I would like to see all planes abandoned in the water scored as kills, and I would like to see one overall change in the damage model/kill scoring- a plane that is damaged to the point that it cannot be flown (entire wing, tail section taken off, all control surfaces removed, etc) scored as a kill. (This is an idea that's been discussed in the past, mostly with regards to kill stealing, but I digress)
This type of change could easily extend to the ditching parameters- a plane capable of getting its gear down and coming to a stop intact aside from some damage to the engine or fuel tanks is one thing, and seems a reasonable candidate for a ditch. A plane that is shot to pieces at low alt and survives the impact, or one that ditches in the trees, tearing off both wings and the tail section is quite another. If they score a kill for a proxy, or when a pilot bails, even from an intact aircraft, why not score one when the plane is shot apart and falls to the earth, as it was done in reality?
Imagine seeing this in an AAr
"24 Nov 1944. Fired upon a P38, observed hits across entire plane. Fire erupted from both engines, at which point I fired another short burst, removing both wings and the entire tail section from the craft. Both my wingman and I witnessed this plane plummeting into a stand of trees, tearing both engines and fuselage booms off in a horrific ball of fire and smoke, at which point the charred, perforated, and crumpled pilot compartment slid across a road, coming to rest against the front porch of a farmhouse outside Kaiserslautern, at which point there was a small explosion, and the remains of the plane disintegrated. I claim no kills."
That's perfectly normal in here, which doesn't seem very logical to me.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
If they score a kill for a proxy, or when a pilot bails, even from an intact aircraft, why not score one when the plane is shot apart and falls to the earth, as it was done in reality?
Originally posted by hitech
You can not award the kill at the time of damage. The outcome of the flight has still not been determined. The odds are he will crash and die,but that is not always the case.
But I have lost wings at times near ground and ended up with a ditch by luck.
Here is a perfect example of what HT is saying :) "The outcome of the flight (or fight in this case) has still not been determined." (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/lolkill_1331.ahf)
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If you ping a plane, and the pilot bails, it's a kill. If you shoot the wings off, and the pilot bails, it's a kill. If you shoot the wings off, and the thing crashlands, it's a kill when the pilot .efs in certain places. If you're just flying along, see another plane, and the pilot bails, it's a kill. In other places, the pilot can crash, leaving the plane completely destroyed except for the cockpit tub, and it's not a kill. If you shoot the plane down and the pilot dies in the crash, it's a kill. If you just happen to be nearby when someone crashes, it's also a kill, even though you had nothing to do with it.
So, in some instances, the criteria for scoring a kill is killing the pilot. In others, it's separating the pilot from the airplane, even though the pilot survives. In others, it's the pilot ending his sortie. In no circumstances is it dealing so much damage to the plane that it can no longer fly, which is sort of the point, isn't it?
You're saying the current setup is the most reasonable? I think not.
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So you have no comment on the specific issue I addressed in my posted? :)
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This is the Wishlist, and this is my wish. I'll watch your film in a moment if it's so important to you, although it does not render my opinion worthless, or incorrect.
FWIW, he didn't end up with a ditch by luck, he wrote the game that way. He ended up with a ditch because he coded the game to not give kills when the aircraft is shot down, or when the pilot exits the plane in certain places. It had little to do with luck.
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That's it? I see Goobman A) being stupid, and B) trying desparately to get that kill that the system would otherwise not give him, despite him having shot you down.
It's a matter of perspective. If there's a historical precedent, let's see it. If your only basis for arguing that the best system is the current system, is that you once got a kill after being shot down under the current system, you're wasting time trying to convince me.
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So you think Goobman should have been magically awarded a kill for taking the tail off an enemy plane seconds before dying? No opportunity to report a kill, no friendlies to confirm the alledged kill...That doesn't sound realistic either.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
If you ping a plane, and the pilot bails, it's a kill. If you shoot the wings off, and the pilot bails, it's a kill. If you shoot the wings off, and the thing crashlands, it's a kill when the pilot .efs in certain places. If you're just flying along, see another plane, and the pilot bails, it's a kill. In other places, the pilot can crash, leaving the plane completely destroyed except for the cockpit tub, and it's not a kill. If you shoot the plane down and the pilot dies in the crash, it's a kill. If you just happen to be nearby when someone crashes, it's also a kill, even though you had nothing to do with it.
So, in some instances, the criteria for scoring a kill is killing the pilot. In others, it's separating the pilot from the airplane, even though the pilot survives. In others, it's the pilot ending his sortie. In no circumstances is it dealing so much damage to the plane that it can no longer fly, which is sort of the point, isn't it?
You're saying the current setup is the most reasonable? I think not.
The problem with the current logic is that the code can only assign a "single" outcome and they are ... ditch ... capture ... kill.
I could be wrong, but a kill in WW II was recorded when a plane was taken out of the fight ... be it by killing the pilot ... damaging the plane to the point that it could fight anymore ... or blowing up the plane.
If HT could award both a ditch or capture to the pilot, depending upon the circumstances, that is sitting in the cockpit on the ground alive and a kill to the person that caused that condition, that would be the ideal solution to the problem.
Also, if he could set a parameter that above a certain altitude, if a plane suffers a complete loss of 1 or 2 wings or a complete loss of the tail, the kill is awarded immediately ... this would quell the "kill stealing" of the helplessly floating plane syndrome.
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To pretend that you earned a kill by being shot down in such a place as to have a convenient shot on a wreck, and to maintain that Goobman didn't, even though he'd already taken you down is patently absurd. Your "issue" is simply a farcical event that only happened because he wanted the kill he'd legitimately earned. Whether or not he would have lived to claim it isn't really a concern in this scenario. We know what happened.
If HT could award both a ditch or capture to the pilot, depending upon the circumstances, that is sitting in the cockpit on the ground alive and a kill to the person that caused that condition, that would be the ideal solution to the problem.
Also, if he could set a parameter that above a certain altitude, if a plane suffers a complete loss of 1 or 2 wings or a complete loss of the tail, the kill is awarded immediately ... this would quell the "kill stealing" of the helplessly floating plane syndrome.
Agree completely. I don't even know if the altitude parameter is required. I would think that when a plane is fired upon, and shot to pieces, then falls from the sky, that those in attendance would describe that plane as "shot down". HTC can and does track all of the shots fired, damage dealt, victories scored, etc. Why do they choose to ignore what would be legitimate kills in the real world, while awarding kills for things which wouldn't be? That's what I fail to understand.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Whether or not he would have lived to claim it isn't really a concern in this scenario.
Yes, it is. You argue that HiTech should change his kill award system to more closely match historical scenarios. If a plane was shot down, and there was no ability for the shooter to claim it, then it wouldn't be recorded. Realistically that sortie panned out as it should have. I lived, I had a friendly on hand to confirm the kill, and the opponent could not have claimed a kill.
You don't really want realism. You want some minscule percentages of kills that you feel would have been earned in real life to be awarded to you. What about the rest of the system? Are you willing to be awarded probables? You would be happy with damaging an enemy to the extent their time of powered controlled flight is limited, but being unable to collect a kill if their sortie finishes outside an arbitrary range of you? Because the system in place already heavily leans toward awarding kills.
It doesn't matter how long ago, or how far away you are from an enemy when their sortie ends. If you damaged them during your current sortie, did more damage than anyone else, and they bail, capture, disconnect, or crash, you get the kill. I don't see any realism complaints about that, and I believe that is far more common place than the 'ditch out' scenario. Realistically, you could not claim those kills. Are you willing to give those up for the ability to claim the oddball ditch out?
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Btw, here is that quote in it's entirity
Originally posted by hitech
You can not award the kill at the time of damage. The outcome of the flight has still not been determined. The odds are he will crash and die,but that is not always the case.
But I have lost wings at times near ground and ended up with a ditch by luck.
What would be possible is that no more lethality points are tracked once certian componets fail. The plane could still be shot and more damage done, but no kill award tracking would be done, you still must stay living until the hit plane exits flight.
Been thinking about implementing this for a while, it just hasn't moved to the top of the list yet.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Murdr
You want some minscule percentages of kills that you feel would have been earned in real life to be awarded to you.
Originally posted by Murdr
My thought is, if I can deny someone a kill by making it back to friendly territory I will.
Originally posted by Murdr
Where is the immersion or fun in attempting to rtb if anything short of stoping on the runway gives someone a kill...
So Murdr, I'm the one trying to weasel every last bit out of my stats, huh? :rolleyes:
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I'll stand by those two old quotes. The current system does add an incentive to try to screw the other guy out of a kill. I consider that fun. I consider it fun to be the other guy trying to prevent that too :)
I consider this fun (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/community/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile;id=4)
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Running off and landing intact except for some minor damage(engine out, fuel leak, winchester, etc), while denying a kill to someone, I'm absolutely in favor of. Having your plane blown to pieces and getting a ditch because the code looks at your speed when you break the ground plane, and your proximity to a field when your speed reaches 0, I'm against.
You are more concerned with not being killed, while I'm more concerned with killing. We're on different sides of the fence here, and I see why you're opposed to this. That's fine too, but quit trying to tell me I'm wrong.
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Where did I say you were wrong? And you're just plain full of **** with that line about killing vs not dying...you should know better.
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Just for the record, I was up in a Hurri1 in orange the other night and came across a low il2, since it was the only con about I thought "why not" and went for it.
We had a nice little fight and not once did any HOing occur, he ended up taking my engine out with a cannon shot, and I extended as far as I could on the glide and dropped gear hoping for the ditch. Next thing I see was a txt on 200 telling me: Hurri1 at 152 land.
to you sir!, you know who you are :)
So I land and even though we were in no mans' land between bases, he still got the kill. So as far as I'm concerned there is no problem at all with the current ditch set-up.
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Originally posted by SD67
So I land and even though we were in no mans' land between bases, he still got the kill. So as far as I'm concerned there is no problem at all with the current ditch set-up.
There is no no-mans land. It's only important which base is closest to you.
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Yeah I was not sure how close we were to whose base, but either way I ditched, he got the kill. Since he took out my engine, I've got no issue with that.