Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: oboe on January 17, 2008, 10:53:01 AM
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Winston Churchill once said, "There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result".
I think he is right, but it also gets your blood pumpin' when the incoming fire is telling and you begin to lose pieces of your plane. When your opponent is not using tracers, you get no satisfaction from dodging rounds, because you can't see anything.
I don't think there is any option that gives vets a bigger advantage against newer players, and you'd think that's gotta hurt the game in the long run.
Finally, is AH's implementation realistic? Were non-tracer rounds entirely invisible? I think I've read air combat stories that include references to "glowing" cannon rounds, or something like that.
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And when this option is removed the threads labeled, "I wish we had 'No Tracers' option!" appear.
Gee, how can Hitech make people happy?
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No.
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Originally posted by oboe
Winston Churchill once said, "There is nothing more exhilarating than to be shot at without result".
I think he is right, but it also gets your blood pumpin' when the incoming fire is telling and you begin to lose pieces of your plane. When your opponent is not using tracers, you get no satisfaction from dodging rounds, because you can't see anything.
I don't think there is any option that gives vets a bigger advantage against newer players, and you'd think that's gotta hurt the game in the long run.
Finally, is AH's implementation realistic? Were non-tracer rounds entirely invisible? I think I've read air combat stories that include references to "glowing" cannon rounds, or something like that.
Translation: I got shot down by bullets I never saw. THAT"S NOT FAIR, BAN THE NO TRACER OPTION!
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Actually,
Vets have an advantage over newcomers because of advanced skill in the following:
* SA
* BCM
* ACM
* Gunnery
All which come from experience.
Secondly, it's not as easy as one may think to hit a target with tracers off.
So......
Unless the guy is really good or has HUGE taters, he might not make a kill shot in the first volley. If he connects, but doesn't kill on the first volley, the advantage of surprise is lost, and it makes it harder to hit a target with tracers off once the target starts squirming around.
Give it a try in offline mode and you may notice how it is not that easy even with the bandits flying in a predictable circling pattern.
I usually keep mine on because it helps to clear your wingie's six if a pursuer is on him.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Translation: I got shot down by bullets I never saw. THAT"S NOT FAIR, BAN THE NO TRACER OPTION!
LOL, I've been around long enough to handle getting shot down by no tracers without getting too upset about it, Clifra. No translation is necessary -- just got to thinking about it from a new player's POV.
VonMessa, I have started to give no tracers a try recently. A lot of the real good 38 drivers don't use them. You are right, it's more difficult, but I imagine I can improve quite a bit if I stick with it.
Good point about clearing the wingie's six.
Denholm, I am sure Hitech would go nuts if his goal was to try to make everybody happy. btw, I'm happy! :D It's not a whine thread. Just wondered what other people thought about the no tracers option.
Still curious if no tracers meant an absolutely undetectable stream of fire in real life, though...
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The point is: If he can hit you with his tracers OFF, he's just going to hit you with tracers ON. This is not a bug, or exploit, or cheat, or gaming the game. The top pilots historically DID typically fly without tracers loaded.
Practice gunnery then you can turn them off, too. OR turn them off now if you wish and practice that way. Sometimes tracers actually hurt your gunnery because you end up aiming with THEM, and not your gunsight.
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I have a old ww11 gun camera footage on cd were this one p47 has no tracer but you can see the hit sprites it is in colour. I guess you could use ammo with no tracer if they had it then we should have it now.
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Sax,
I don't mean at all to imply that I think no tracers is in anyway a bug, cheat, exploit, or gaming the game. It is just a user-configurable feature of the game, and yep, I am sure there were more than a hand full of top pilots who flew without tracers in their ammo load.
And yep, I am trying it out too.
Probably the 'WishList' was the wrong place to post these questions, as I meant it to be a pros/cons discussion of the feature and its affects on new players in the game. The '?' in my subject was intentional.
I wonder how much of a frustration it is for a new player to be shot down by invisible bullets and cannon rounds. Is AH missing giving him the visceral thrill of tracers slashing by his canopy as others quickly find their mark and pulverize his plane?
That lead me to wonder if AH's implementation of the no tracers option as an undetectable stream of fire for all calibers and round types, is accurate and true to life. I'm not sure about that one way or another.
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Originally posted by oboe
...Probably the 'WishList' was the wrong place to post these questions, as I meant it to be a pros/cons discussion of the feature and its affects on new players in the game. The '?' in my subject was intentional...
Agreed, anything posted here (with or without a question mark) is looked upon as a request.
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I like flying with no tracers. My accuracy has improved and people cant see me shooting them till it's to late. I thought it would be hardened with them off but it's great.
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I'm pretty sure that I'm fundamentally opposed to any unrealistic changes made solely to make it harder to shoot people down, in a game whose main objective is shooting people down.
Also, I would think that if bullets were easily visible flying through the atmosphere (I must admit, I have never seen one), that the tracer round would never have been devised.
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Originally posted by Denholm
And when this option is removed the threads labeled, "I wish we had 'No Tracers' option!" appear.
Gee, how can Hitech make people happy?
He can't because people want things. When they get something then they want more and are not satisfied until they get what they want, and since they always want they will never be satisifed fully.
;)
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Very True..... You dont know hat you have until it's gone Or something like that.
Originally posted by Latrobe
He can't because people want things. When they get something then they want more and are not satisfied until they get what they want, and since they always want they will never be satisifed fully.
;)
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The Real question is did WW2 pilots fly w/ no tracers?
....if they did what % of the time did this happen?
...based upon this you can make your own choice
One of my father friends was an Infantry man...they had intercepted a message that a SS unit was going to attack a certain area .....so they set up 3 machine guns in a flanking position .....Mr. Atkins said that all afternoon they sat around removing tracer rounds from their belts of ammo so the enemy could not see where they were firing from.....late that night the attack came....they fired and fired and fired....after a few minutes the MG barrell would start to glow red hott....as the barrells got hotter the barrell would start to bend up and the bullets would start to not fire straight ...he said he would then put on his gloves and change the barrell and they would continue firing ...this went on for the rest of the night .....by morning Mr. Atkins said that the German soilder's bodies were pilled up 4-5 feet high in some places ....that morning Mr. Atkins Lt. came up to him and said: "Wendell ..you still looking for a SS officers ring?" ...he said "yes sir" ....the Lt. walked over to a dead SS officer...pulled out a revolver and proceded to shoot the dead officers finger off ....the Lt. picked up the finger with the ring still on it..and said: ..."here ya go" ....Mr. Atkins told me that he wore that ring all the time....but lost it one day when he went swiming in the ocean .....Mr. Wendell Atkins has passed away...he was a great man...just wanted to share his story with you guys
Helm ...out
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I'm against this... But thats more because I can't aim with tracers on. I've always found tracers to crowd my gun-sight, making it impossible to concentrate on aiming at the plane itself.
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i think it should be removed on the field guns because that bull when you cant even see these aa guns fireing at you
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Originally posted by Helm
The Real question is did WW2 pilots fly w/ no tracers?
....if they did what % of the time did this happen?
...based upon this you can make your own choice
One of my father friends was an Infantry man...they had intercepted a message that a SS unit was going to attack a certain area .....so they set up 3 machine guns in a flanking position .....Mr. Atkins said that all afternoon they sat around removing tracer rounds from their belts of ammo so the enemy could not see where they were firing from.....late that night the attack came....they fired and fired and fired....after a few minutes the MG barrell would start to glow red hott....as the barrells got hotter the barrell would start to bend up and the bullets would start to not fire straight ...he said he would then put on his gloves and change the barrell and they would continue firing ...this went on for the rest of the night .....by morning Mr. Atkins said that the German soilder's bodies were pilled up 4-5 feet high in some places ....that morning Mr. Atkins Lt. came up to him and said: "Wendell ..you still looking for a SS officers ring?" ...he said "yes sir" ....the Lt. walked over to a dead SS officer...pulled out a revolver and proceded to shoot the dead officers finger off ....the Lt. picked up the finger with the ring still on it..and said: ..."here ya go" ....Mr. Atkins told me that he wore that ring all the time....but lost it one day when he went swiming in the ocean .....Mr. Wendell Atkins has passed away...he was a great man...just wanted to share his story with you guys
Helm ...out
in night figter they always had them removed but in normal day light yes normaly sometimes they wouldnt though
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Originally posted by oboe
Sax,
I don't mean at all to imply that I think no tracers is in anyway a bug, cheat, exploit, or gaming the game. It is just a user-configurable feature of the game, and yep, I am sure there were more than a hand full of top pilots who flew without tracers in their ammo load.
And yep, I am trying it out too.
Probably the 'WishList' was the wrong place to post these questions, as I meant it to be a pros/cons discussion of the feature and its affects on new players in the game. The '?' in my subject was intentional.
I wonder how much of a frustration it is for a new player to be shot down by invisible bullets and cannon rounds. Is AH missing giving him the visceral thrill of tracers slashing by his canopy as others quickly find their mark and pulverize his plane?
That lead me to wonder if AH's implementation of the no tracers option as an undetectable stream of fire for all calibers and round types, is accurate and true to life. I'm not sure about that one way or another.
I used to fly with tracers on, now that i have turned them off i have improved my fighting abilitys, yes it takes getting used to but its worth it in the end, and if the NEW pilot is yanking on his stick instead of checking his 6 then thats his own fault, yea it sucks but it was that way in WW2 :)
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I never fly with my tracers on.
Its more fun to sneak up on unwary pilots and blast them out of the sky without them seeing tracers zooming past him
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Originally posted by oboe
Finally, is AH's implementation realistic? Were non-tracer rounds entirely invisible?
Yes they were and still are. As many kills during WWII were from aircraft that were never seen by their victim, some of the more experienced pilots would remove tracers from their load-outs so if their first burst was a little off, the enemy wouldn't know they were being shot at.
Since most of the experienced pilots fired only at what we would consider close range (200-300 yds or less), having tracers was much less important to them as they really didn't need them.
I do think it gives you an advantage in the MA. That's why I fly with mine turned off. In the SEA during FSO, most of the time I turn them on, so I can clear my wingman's six by "scaring" the attacker off with a burst of tracer. I would like to keep the option, as I use it, and it has historical basis.
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< tried flying without tracers for 1 whole tour. Got to week two and switched back to tracers. I'm not sure why I like tracers on more, I just do.
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Its just personal preference. :aok
I keep tracers off. With tracers on I feel that the sight is so cluttered I can't see the target.:eek: However so miss tracers when I am trying to clear a buddie's six and miss the shot.
What I'd like to see is an option to have tracers on/off for each gun type. :p
Then in my P38 I could have no tracers for 50cals and tracers for 20mm. Wonder if IRL any aircraft were ever loaded up this way:confused:
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Originally posted by Meatwad
I never fly with my tracers on.
Its more fun to sneak up on unwary pilots and blast them out of the sky without them seeing tracers zooming past him
Same here.
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Realistic? Yes Remove ability to turn tracers off?-No
Oink
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I'll have to try this.
I don't fire until I am within hundred meters anyway though so not sure it would matter.
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Its a great option and I am pretty sure individual pilots had some say as to the load out of tracers into the ammo bins.
Leave this option as is, optional.
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I think lot of people definetly had strong opinions on good and bad so thought maybe I would add few more
Advantages:
Bad guy doesn't know how bad I miss
Disadvantage: I know i'm missing badly :lol
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The #1 advantage of having tracers turned off is that it teaches you to aim with the gun sight and not the tracers. After you learn how to properly aim with the gunsight, you can turn the tracers back on.
ack-ack
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i use them to scare people into moving like wild things
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I like them on when I fly a plane I am not familiar with. (although it FUBARS my frame rate)
I would like it to be an individual setting for each plane, because I often find myself on the runway and have to exit to change it .. if I remember.
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I always kept my tracers off, even after becoming a good shot, guess i was afraid of becoming worse at aiming.
Or was it because THEY LOOK SO ARCADISH?
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I agree with VonMessa 100%
Compared to the things the average new pilot to AH has to adjust to. No tracers takes moments. Its part of what I teach every new pilot when we are up in the Val. Forget about looking for my tracers, you won't see them. Concentrate instead on watching me. If you see I'm going to line up, kick rudder, change pitch to wiggle and spoil my shot.
Forget about trying to learn to shoot by watching your tracers. Get behind the enemy, put the cross hairs on him, and pull lead in the direction he's moving.
Continue to hold down the trigger and pull lead until you see hit flashes.
Tracers just obstruct the view, and distract the eye from what it should be doing. (I think the same about most gunsights)
Teach your eye and brain to calculate, to learn what the right lead is for a given situation. Don't aim at the whole plane, (like aiming at a flock of ducks) Aim at 1 point and HIT that point till it breaks.
The secret to quick kills in AH is to keep your fire concentrated in the same place. Not scatter it all over from left wing to right, or down the fuse from front to back. Put your fire in one place, and HOLD it there till something breaks or he goes boom.
As for realism, crew chiefs made up ammo for their pilots as part of the normal process. They had many more options as to how they wanted it setup than we do. We have a simple on or off. They could not put any tracers in till say the last 50 rounds. (warning, about out of ammo!)
They could chose 1 tracer round in 5, 10, 15 whatever it was they wanted.
They could have tracers on wing guns but not on nose guns.
I would like to see MORE tracer options in game, not less.
As to seeing bullets, a lot depends on how good the light is, what your position is, and how good your eyes are. I used to be able to see the bullets from my .22 rifle going down range, could tell if I hit my target or not.
Now that I'm 55 thats long since a thing of the past.
For 7.62 (.30 cal ) MG it would be very tough. The bullets are small, and VERY fast. 12mm (.50 cal) it gets a little easier, they are however still small and fast.
For 20mm and up it gets a lot easier. I think some cannon rounds actually had a burning fuse in them (self destruct in case it missed? Or timed fuze?) Which would be quite visible.
30mm mine shells are a LOT bigger, and moving a LOT slower, yes you'd probably see those on a good day (with good eyes)
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Since it was asked: bullets/canon rounds, unless they are a particularly slow round, are virtually invisible unless they are a tracer round. Even the slow rounds you will not normally see a "trail" for the round.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The #1 advantage of having tracers turned off is that it teaches you to aim with the gun sight and not the tracers. After you learn how to properly aim with the gunsight, you can turn the tracers back on.
ack-ack
Exactly! My tracers have been off for two years and are still off. Get my drift?! :rolleyes:
:aok
P.S. Good to see ya Clifra!
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NO. It was a real option in the war, and it should be an option here. Im with Ghost, we need MORE tracer options not less.
The issue of the visibility of a regular round is separate to removing the no tracer option. If there's evidence that our totally invisible no tracer options is quite realistic, then perhaps that needs looking at, but i doubt it is unrealistic at all.
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Originally posted by oboe
Finally, is AH's implementation realistic? Were non-tracer rounds entirely invisible? I think I've read air combat stories that include references to "glowing" cannon rounds, or something like that.
The bullets, I do believe, would "glow" for a split second out of the muzzle, well, rather the muzzle of the gun would "flash" for a split second per round but the bullet wouldn't have the heat to make it "glow" unless, perchance, it was an incidiary round which I'm not sure of...
I say keep the current setting. Shooting people with tracers is alot harder than you think, plus, it makes it hard to freak 'em out, which alot of their mistakes come from the "pressure" or the "pumpin blood" so without em, it just gives you the element of suprise. Your SA should solve that problem though :aok
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Anyone who needs to see tracers to know they're being fired on has already failed the most important part of air-combat to begin with. I don't have much sympathy for someone who lets me sneak 200yds off their 6 for a perfect saddle-shot. ESPECIALLY if I miss and they still don't flinch. ;)
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The best part of sneaking in on their 6 without tracers. That's watching them start to dance when they hear the pings.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Anyone who needs to see tracers to know they're being fired on has already failed the most important part of air-combat to begin with. I don't have much sympathy for someone who lets me sneak 200yds off their 6 for a perfect saddle-shot. ESPECIALLY if I miss and they still don't flinch. ;)
I remember a great fight I had with a Jug because I had skipped the low-six ambush shot. Instead, I pulled even with the guy and flew on his wing for a few seconds. When he finally saw me, you could almost sense the panic as he jerked the stick back and then rolled over and dove for the ground. I followed him down and we had a great fight down low for a few minutes.
I think I'm going to go back to tracers. It feels to me like something is missing from the game- its just not satisfying to pull the trigger and not see the tracers streaking out towards my target.
I'll make it a personal mission of mine to spread Churchill's exhilaration of being fired on without effect. :D
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And thats the wonderful thing about choice. You have the option to make it.
But to ask for choices to be taken away, well thats going backwards. Like going from freedom to a police state. To impose your will or idea's on others is NOT what AH is all about. To have the freedom to fly where and how you will. That is the dream.
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Some american pilots had the first 90%ish rounds loaded up without tracers and used the final 10% with tracers so they would know how much ammo they had left. But the germans caught on and they stopped doing that.
I myself never use tracers. I don't see how they help honestly. They clutter up the screen anyways :cool:
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Thing is when you put 600 some odd rounds down range, you would see smoke or something.
maby the problem is more so the fact the bullets are fully invisible, no trace whatsoever that your being fired on.
No bullet whizzing sounds, nothing.
Make the smoke trail only flow out to a short range "150-200", and make bullet whizz sounds so someone can hear 'if" the traces fly past the cockpit.
:aok
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Thing is when you put 600 some odd rounds down range, you would see smoke or something.
I've watched thousands of M2 .50 cal ball rounds go down range, and during the daytime, you cannot seem them. At night you cannot see them. You can easily see hits against metal, but no other indication of fire, other than the muzzle flash and report of firing. There is a small amount of smoke and gas that exit the barrel, but for a plane flying a couple hundred mph, all of that is quickly dissipated.
Furthermore, in a cockpit with a 2000 HP motor rumbling and vibrating away, especially at combat power settings, you're barely going to be able to hear the radio, much less the sound of near misses whizzing past your cockpit.
I'd love to have a "last 50 rpg tracer" option, but definitely want the ability to fly with the first 350 rpg being invisible.
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I have a simple solution to the young man's problem...
CHECK SIX!! :D
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After flying with it for a day or two now don't see much difference.
Suppose it would be different if I were using banks of .50s and blazing away at 500m+
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Originally posted by Stoney74
I've watched thousands of M2 .50 cal ball rounds go down range, and during the daytime, you cannot seem them. At night you cannot see them. You can easily see hits against metal, but no other indication of fire, other than the muzzle flash and report of firing. There is a small amount of smoke and gas that exit the barrel, but for a plane flying a couple hundred mph, all of that is quickly dissipated.
Furthermore, in a cockpit with a 2000 HP motor rumbling and vibrating away, especially at combat power settings, you're barely going to be able to hear the radio, much less the sound of near misses whizzing past your cockpit.
I'd love to have a "last 50 rpg tracer" option, but definitely want the ability to fly with the first 350 rpg being invisible.
Thanks for posting this Stoney; this was exactly the kind of first hand experience I was hoping to hear about. I am reassured that AH's tracerless option is correctly modelled after reading your account.
Wonder if the no tracers option would be make more sense to be offered in the hangar where you are selecting your loadout though, instead of under the flight preferences section.
Shuckins, I'm not sure what you are talking about; I think you must've misunderstood the post.
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Tracers as a hangar option, rather than interface, has been asked for repeatedly. I'd love to see it.
I do wonder how round visibility compares with the US .50cal API round, as opposed to the standard ball.
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"Sometimes you miss with the first bullets and the tracers give you away"
Colonel Francis Gabreski
Gabreski, having seen tracers on his last burst, indicating he was about to run out of ammo, didnt pursue.
Did pilots like the tracers or did some not use them?
Every third round was a tracer round and most pilots he new used them. However they were not used to aim. The tracer round always had less of an arc than the actual bullet. So if the pilot aimed using the tracers the bullets would all miss. A good pilot used the gun sight and always waited till they were at close range.
interview with Franz Stigler
wrngway
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Originally posted by Saxman
I do wonder how round visibility compares with the US .50cal API round, as opposed to the standard ball.
Well, I'm starting to go outside of my breadth of knowledge here, but from what I understand, the tracers loaded were standard .50 cal tracer, and the API was not a tracer round. Therefore, the API should "look" the same as a ball round. So, for example, a 5 and 1 load of API would still only have the tracer round as the visibile round.
I've never seen API fired on a M2; however, I have seen 20mm HEI fired from a Cobra, 20mm (F-16/18), 25mm (AV8), 30mm (A10) HE, and whatever the AC-130 40mm round is (some sort of anti-personnel round?), fired from fixed wing and you don't see them until impact.