Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: indy007 on January 21, 2008, 08:16:29 AM
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24 vs 10 for 3 hours isn't very fun. I'd speculate that it probably even causes more people on the small side to continue logging off.
It's one thing to play outnumbered by a few people, but it's another when one side can split into 2 groups, still outnumber your entire side on any front, and still have spares.
It turns it into the lame land-grab that is the main arenas.
Is this going to continue, or is some sort of solution being proposed? It needs an auto-balancing mechanism, badly.
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Hello Indy,
I do not think that the scenario and it's awards allow for this to happen. My squad came over under the impression that a side was to be chosen, and stuck with for the duration. Your concern is appreciated, but the request is without merit under the established circumstances. Bear in mind, it can't get more real than getting your butt kicked on occassion! A good desperate fight is good for the soul, not to mention your ACM, SA & tactics. I was worried about this too at first, but as time goes by I have found that it swings back and forth in numbers which more than equalizes out in terms of land-grabbing.
Oink
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Then what makes this different than any other arena other than a rolling plane-set? Digital "atta-boys"? That's a joke.
Game balance is not 2 sides taking turns wailing on a pinata. That's simply bad design and lack of forethought. I know this is what's going on, because I always switch to the lowest numbered side. I can even show you extensive videos of how the rolling plane-set converted pilots from guys more than happy to work reversals into a bunch of hardcore cherry-pickers (curse you F4F/190s!)
They'd be better off closing the arena, setting a specific time for it to be open (matched to participants squadnights), and running it with as even numbers as possible. Then maybe the paper medals would actually have some sort of meaning, because right now they're about as valuable as a lwa top 20 spot.
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Sunday's numbers did get out of hand, no doubt, but to offset that is the Spit9 and the P38. Even numbers would likely drive the Axis out of the arena with those in there, and yes, the Allied won those planes fair and square.
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Originally posted by indy007
They'd be better off closing the arena, setting a specific time for it to be open [/B]
Now this actually seems like a good idea Indy.:aok
Oink
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I haven't logged into this "war" yet without one side having twice as many than the other.
I logged in allied initially. A few "WTGs!" later from players capping bases against the one Axis player who was apparently AFK made me go back to the Main arenas.
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I remember Churchill calling Hitler and saying "We're going to bomb Berlin tonight and we have 25 bombers. How many fighters you sending up?"
Yeah right!
There were many times when the Brits were way out numbered in the south of England. It's called WAR!
Get over it and play!!
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LMAO the first night in the WAR when axis have the numbers and people start whining. We've been out numbered two to one most of the time so heres a suggestion.........deal with it.
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hrdhrd, it's not a war, it's a game with cartoon airplanes, handing out cartoon "medals". Last I checked, Hitler wasn't an AH2 subscriber. Seeing as its a game, a game should be balanced and fun for everybody, not just for the people whacking the pinata of the day.
Larry, arguement doesn't work on me. I fly both sides. Specifically, I fly on the outnumbered side. That, in & of itself, isn't bad. It's more fun for me... right until the numbers are so lopsided there's no point even upping.
God forbid people give up their pathetic toolshedding and actually work to accomplish something.
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Originally posted by indy007
God forbid people give up their pathetic toolshedding and actually work to accomplish something.
Like winning the war?
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Our squad has flown both sides regularly to try and even the balance. In fact last night we spent half our time on Axis, and the second half on Allied. I've seen JG-54 guys attempting the same thing. Sometimes it's just out of whack. It seems to even out after a while though.
It's not like people aren't trying. Sometimes like anything else you have to be patient. There's no hidden agenda to keep the sides unbalanced.
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Originally posted by indy007
It turns it into the lame land-grab that is the main arenas.
I don't agree that there is anything wrong with the setup. It is relatively new. It will take some time for players to get used to different style of play. I suggest that we monitor the players more closely.
My only bad experience so far, was with a slightly abusive player whom will remain nameless. After the same player vulched me several times with far superior numbers (vulch was almost entirely him -- first occured while sitting on re-arm pad --nothing said ) and only after the 3rd or 4th vulch did I voice my opinion on channel 200. I quote, "...... there is no need to vulch in this arena unless you are trying to capture a field." The abuse began and I was consistently called names, and this went on for more than 10 minutes.
I also, pointed to the fact that we we seriously outnumbered. One or more of their better sticks did switch sides in an attempt to even it out.
Finally, and unfortunately I lost my temper and called him an idiot and there should be an IQ test for AH2 subscribers and reminded him there were no perk points awarded in this arena (so, I am not blameless for dirtying the channel 200 airwaves).
On that night, I logged off only because I take less abuse than that in the MA and have a better chance of actually dogfighting or strafing a ground vehicle target.
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I want both sides to read this.
KUDOS to JG54 for using the FW190A5 to it's strenght and flying historicly correct for an exccellent object lesson on why allies have to fly smart, not furball and loosy goosy and individual squad objectives. I noticed the axis paid the allies the courtecy of not SkyRocking the salt in the wound on ch200 during the object lesson.
This must have been how the british spitV pilots felt encountering the FW for the first time. Wasen't that the reason for introducing the spitIX? We aliies got our heads rightfully handed to us, and we didnt adapt. The first night, everywhere and any alt I went to I was swarmed by hit and running FW in groups.
No allie got the point. Now with high performance planes and heavier armement we can't win the war of TWO SIDES by flying like the MA. TrueKill beat us to the punch on that reality with historicaly accurate tactics for his plane set.
Allies have some hard choices now. The 190 can range at SPEED with impunity at alts 15k to the deck. Allies have yet to mount a major bomber push to A7 above 15k where the spit and 38's performance gets more equitable to the 190's. TruKills swarms have been taking bases from us at will while a hand full of axis pilots keep our allied egos engaged in the north with a meaningless furball.
While we furball and get insulted by a handfull of JG54 over ch200, TrueKill will mount a massive high alt Ju88 strike to his objective while diverting our energies with the channel furballs and jabbo stikes to our southern airfeilds. We allies don't even mount large scale 15k fighters sweeps behind A1 and A3. We just furball and grouse about being jumped by high alt FW running luftweenies. To take A7 we will have to get C47 with troops into TrueKills backfeild while protecting our own backfeild from him getting troops there.
Who is setting who up not to fly historicly?
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Originally posted by Chilli
I don't agree that there is anything wrong with the setup. It is relatively new.
An excellent observation. Let's all work on this. We'd like to do a bit better than the MAs, and it seems to me that there's every reason to believe we can. I see the commanders and players on both sides consulting with one another; I see Bustr's insightful comment (above); I even see some role-playing here (which I guarantee you won't get in an MA environment).
Having said that, Indy has a very good point. The best way to win the war is not to drive the opponents out of the arena in disgust.
- oldman
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In deference to Oldman's wisdom (wish he sold it in a bottle).
Last night I got blue text moderated. I attempeted to get players from the other side to stop changing a squad mates ID spelling to that of a human orifice while my squad mate was verbaly sparing with them on ch200. I reminded the person using the vulgar spelling like this would be moderated in the MA.
The AvA moderator was right it blue text telling me to drop it. The moderator eventualy had to ask the verbal combatants, my squad mates included if they needed moderating and squelching. After the moderator called it a night, well.....
I have spoken with my parties involved. My real concern is to the potential Im seeing in this setup for something that can grow and forge many newbies and average players into excellent combat pilots by virtue of the historicaly realistic no holds barred combat like what happened over europe until 1944. The verbal is a bit over the top due to the intensity.
We need to tone it down abit to keep this setup viable.
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Gents !
My squad is havin' a good time in this event !
Yes there is room for improvement and that was expected !
Some nights we get our butts kicked and some nights, its our turn !
Give it a chance !
My only suggestion, get the score board and ranks out of there !
Players say things and do things that makes some part of this game NOT SO MUCH FUN !
Why players get upset/frustrated ? INDIVIDUAL SCORES & RANKS !
Without these, we would play to get the mission accomplished succesfully !
Field is captured and move on to the next !
Time will fix many things. Maybe not all but few of them !
Salute
Phil / OPP7755
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Having said that, Indy has a very good point. The best way to win the war is not to drive the opponents out of the arena in disgust.
- oldman
TY. Arenas were actually as good as its gonna get last night. Close numbers while I was on, and some pretty nasty fights. People tried to HO me less than people tried to actually engage me, and I landed some kills for both chess pieces, which is always a bonus.
I disagree that's there's anything particularly "new" about this arena though. Players get to pick some choices in the next phase of the plane set... okay, yeah... and? Short flight maps and rolling plane-sets have been done before. The tactics are the same as MA, flatten base, cap it, roll troops. The fighters have mostly been in the game since the dawn of time, so it's not like a new era of ACM is upon us. Same players, same planes, same game engine, same tactics. The only thing new is the little carrot of getting go pick ur plane for grabbing specific bases, instead of a random grab-everything attitude.
This is all fine. It works, and it works pretty good. Right until the numbers are 25 - 10. At that point, it's exactly like every other arena, with all of the associated problems. It's one thing to make the game a little different, but it's another entirely to actually make the game better.
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I think it's great and a breath of fresh air. I'm enjoying the setup, and the challenge of taking spicific objectives.
While you say it's not any different from any other arena, well I don't think it ever will be. There's planes, bases, and that just ain't gonna change in an air combat game.
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There is something I see in the new AvA that I've not seen in a very long time. Entire squads upping together to carry out a mission. It's an amazing and beautiful thing to see an echelon of 190's performing a fighter sweep or a balanced base capture sortie with ju88's, c47's, 110s, and 190s all operating in unison.
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Originally posted by republic
There is something I see in the new AvA that I've not seen in a very long time. Entire squads upping together to carry out a mission. It's an amazing and beautiful thing to see an echelon of 190's performing a fighter sweep or a balanced base capture sortie with ju88's, c47's, 110s, and 190s all operating in unison.
:noid
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Originally posted by republic
There is something I see in the new AvA that I've not seen in a very long time. Entire squads upping together to carry out a mission. It's an amazing and beautiful thing to see an echelon of 190's performing a fighter sweep or a balanced base capture sortie with ju88's, c47's, 110s, and 190s all operating in unison.
On both sides of the war republic! I PM'd several CO's from what I would consider outstanding squads(both Axis & Allied based) inviting them to participate in the AVA. Do you know that without exception I was told thank you, but no thank you. They let me know that they did not care for the horrible attitudes and super egos that historically pervaded the AVA. I did have one notable squad that took the invitation and seems to have taken up residence in the arena. Cool! Regardless of the current set of complaints, I will continue to talk up the AVA trying to build up numbers on both sides.
Oink
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Originally posted by waystin2
They let me know that they did not care for the horrible attitudes and super egos that historically pervaded the AVA. I did have one notable squad that took the invitation and seems to have taken up residence in the arena.
Ahhh, so very true my friend. This is why I spent most of the 5 years I've been playing, in the MA. The attitudes are so match better and I have not seen one person that could spell the word 'ego'. The endless nights we had discussing the war achievements over a cup of tea by the camp fire, singing songs. I would spend a lot more time in the AvA if it became a lot more like the MA :rofl
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Originally posted by waystin2
They let me know that they did not care for the horrible attitudes and super egos that historically pervaded the AVA.
I've played in the AvA for the majority of the time I've been in AH, I've never really had a problem. I think a big reason people have avoided the AvA is that it's always been more challenging. Limited planesets mean that many times one side is at a disadvantage. There are fundamental difference between allied and axis designs, that too can also be a challenge.
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Originally posted by republic
I've played in the AvA for the majority of the time I've been in AH, I've never really had a problem. I think a big reason people have avoided the AvA is that it's always been more challenging. Limited planesets mean that many times one side is at a disadvantage. There are fundamental difference between allied and axis designs, that too can also be a challenge.
I am not going to respond to Mr. D, just not getting what he is saying there.:noid
Anyway, to some extent replubic, I am sure that you are correct. This does not negate the fact that perceptions about the AVA must change in order for it to be viable. I sincerely hope that you are of the same mind about this. Again, as I have said my intention is to see the AVA grow into something a bit more than what is now. Which by the way, is pretty good time for all.
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Originally posted by waystin2
This does not negate the fact that perceptions about the AVA must change in order for it to be viable.
:aok And they have come a long way from the 2 or 3 participants and empty arena. I give the credit AvA staff and their willingness to listen and come up with good designs and setups. Also, to all of those that are getting the word out and fly with civility in the arena.
An obvious attempt has been made in distancing AvA from MA by removing perk points.:aok
I was just informed that medals are awarded to registered participants. :D Way cool and maybe a sneak peek at part of Combat Tour's proposed award system.
Discussion: Would be nice if rank were tied to completed mission objectives (the way perks are awarded in MA when war is won), instead of damage and kills. For instance, a registered member could be assigned specific bases. When that objective is captured a "war has been won" type message appears and rank increases (lowers). My feeling is this would give countrymen more incentive to work together on both sides.
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Just my 2 cents: i enjoy the AVA Immensely. i fly with a bunch of fun loving guys who really get into flying and play and not taking things too too seriously. yes the feeling get a little hightened at times but its always just a game. now that being said, i find that when im on the side of less players in the MA, i dont always hear people screaming that the sides are unbalanced. Why should the AVA be any different. In the REAL war did they count the people and say oh you americans, you have to defect because the sides are unbalanced??? i think not. I find unbalanced a challenge and I think that many a night I've come in on an unbalanced situation and thats whats made it fun. all i can say is thank god for that little reset button. its always going to be a bit unbalanced to one side or the other. either deal with it or go count sheep. Just keep them out of the cockpit, they make a mess. My thanks to the hitech crew that makes this game great.
Gary Davis
AKA Jaeger1
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1) This isn't REAL WAR. It never has been, nor will it ever be. It's not even a reasonable simulation of real war. If it was, you'd be waking up at 4am with 10000 other friends to climb into your bombers and a single sortie would take up most of the day. If you got shot down, you wouldn't be clicking up your next cartoon airplane 10 seconds later.
2) I also enjoy a challenge. However, 20 vs 8 is not a challenge, it's a bunch of people wailing on a pinata and grabbing digital territory as fast as they can go. For every guy on the large side that wants to fight, you've got 3 more that are circling a de-acked, completely flattened base from 1000ft waiting on more troops to be brought in.
People keep saying "oh it's the new ava it's so much better!", but that's a lie. Right now it's batting 50%. Half the time I log on, its nice & balanced, and a great arena. The other half of the time, it's a lopsided land-grab that's no different from the MAs. I didn't drag all of my gear back out of the closet and set everything back up for a game that's only good 50% of the time.
Instead of simpling flipping a switch and fixing the problem, the admins have decided to "treat us like adults", by issuing vague threats of bans for an offense that hasn't even been, nor truly can be, clearly defined, and let the problems continue to roll on and wreck what's an otherwise very workable idea.
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Originally posted by indy007
...Instead of simpling flipping a switch and fixing the problem, the admins have decided to...
Please, what switch is that? We might be able to use it in the SEA were we have the same problem sometimes.
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Originally posted by indy007
Instead of simpling flipping a switch and fixing the problem, the admins have decided to "treat us like adults", by issuing vague threats of bans for an offense that hasn't even been, nor truly can be, clearly defined, and let the problems continue to roll on and wreck what's an otherwise very workable idea.
How were you threatened with a ban?:huh
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Clarify that a bit, I've never been personally threatened, but here it is from Fork in another thread discussing side balancing.
There is little we can do with milk runners other than announce that people /squadrons run the risk of being banned and then excluded from awards. (fixing symptoms - not the problem)
We're all adults, and we'll treat you as such - but that also means giving you lots of flexability and rope - sometimes so much rope people will hang themselves with it. That's the risk they run in milk running bases. Get caught - get punted from the awards and recognition.
The real solution is to find out who plays and when, then schedule players to be there which will safeguard against milk-running. We COULD turn on side balancing, but I'm not sure thats the way to go either (treating a symptom).
Besides, Italy is a big map. If people choose to capture bases in a milk run, congrats on childish gameplay. Get caught milk-running, face the consequences.
So basically, yeah, flip that side balancing switch already and do everbody a favor. :) Though I still think simply upping troop requirements or disabling jeeps/c47s when there's a bigger than 25% imbalance is the best solution.
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Instead of simpling flipping a switch and fixing the problem, the admins have decided to "treat us like adults", by issuing vague threats of bans for an offense that hasn't even been, nor truly can be, clearly defined, and let the problems continue to roll on and wreck what's an otherwise very workable idea.
Most of us have been admins of this arena for years and we've seen it all - this is nothing new to us unfortunately.
The original thread was about side balancing - getting back on topic - for SIDE BALANCING to work, we would need to look at the ENY rates and then set them up for the aircraft we add so that if it's turned on, then the new aircraft added would not be available if the arena #'s were unbalanced. It was developed where you have exact aircraft on either side - which we don't have here. We have different aircraft for opposite sides.
We would have to figure out how SB works, what is the ENY trigger rate, figure out for each round what that rate would be, then change it weekly as new aircraft are added. It's a lot of work for not much benefit. If the ADMINS could set the ENY rate, then yeah, no brainer - we would do it every time we add aircraft. But it requires a call to skuzzy, and then have him modify the table (which is a LOT OF WORK). It also requires an arena reboot which means that captures and strategic targets are reset.
So, until the ENY rate can be set by the admins WITHOUT an arena reset, SB will not be enabled at this time. Perhaps for next time, we can look at it when we have more time to work out the ENY rates.