Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on January 21, 2008, 08:17:37 AM
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Dontcha sometimes just want to reach out and strangle someone who desperately needs it?
Last week I get a call from a customer to do an estimate for some work.
He already has the paint. He just needs someone to do the work
So I give him the estimate which totaled out to $400.
He tells me he needs it done ASAP so he could get his furniture set up.
I tell him I couldn't promise. But I might be able to fit him in provided my currently scheduled costumer had no objections to having his start date bumped by a day. I'd find out and call him.
So the already scheduled customer has no problem with moving the start date and I call the guy and let him know we are set to go on Monday (today)
Friday he calls me again and tells me this story that his wife hadn't decided what color she wants and he isn't going to do it right now.
Ok I figure he's BSing. I figure either he didn't like the price and found someone cheaper or decided to try to do the work himself.
Fine. Such is life. watermelon happens.
Now I'll loose a days pay because of it but I have an estimate I can do on Monday and a bunch of paperwork I need to get done. so rather then make myself look like an idiot and reschedule the original customer back to Monday I'll do that instead.
Sunday (yesterday) comes around and the guy calls me back.
"Yanno what. We decided just to go ahead and get the work done. But I'd like you to come over today and also give me an estimate on other things we want done as well.."
Ok cool. Regardless of reason I'm back on for Monday.
So I go over and give him a separate estimate for the other work he wants done. That estimate came out to $600. With the understanding that he would have to wait a couple of weeks to get the additional work done
(BTW Sure enough. he had tried to do the work himself and (a) screwed it up. And (b) Threw his back out in the process)
Now the work description was written clearly on each. EXACTLY what work was being done and for how much.
He is agreeable to this and we're back on for today.
I figure JUSST in case. I'll hold off rescheduling the other estimate.
So Im getting stuff ready this morning to head over there early and I get a phone call.
Yup. Him again.
"That $600 estimate you gave me yesterday. Did that price include the original work I wanted you to do?"
Me- "No. That is in addition to the original work. If you look on the estimate it clearly lists what work is included for that price"
Him - "Oh. Well I cant do it now then. I was hoping the second estimate was an all inclusive price for both jobs."
Me- "Noo. We went over this yesterday. These are two separate jobs being done at two separate times. Thus you have two separate estimates."
Him "Oh well I cant do it then. I don't have the money"
Me- "then why did you bother calling to have work done if money was an issue? Exactly how much did you think you were going to get it done for?
You told me that last guy who did the entire house did it for $2,000
I told yesterday you if he did it for that much then YOU robbed him.
Lemme tell you something. If he did it for 2 grand then you found yourself a complete moron for a contractor and you should just get him to to do it. Oh that's right. he isnt in business anymore. Gee. I wonder why. That is IF you really had him to begin with.
You just cost me a days pay. I moved someone JUST so I could fit you in a hurry. And NOW just as Im getting ready to come over to your house your telling me you dont want the work done?
How would you like it if your boss called you tomorrow and said. "don't bother coming in today. I dont need you. Oh and by the way Your not getting paid for it either."
him- "Im sorry. I don't want to argue with you. I did at least call you to let you know"
Me -"NOW your calling me to tell me you cant afford it?? You should have thought about being able to afford it before you told me you wanted me to do it...TWICE.
The first time you lied to me
You knew how much the price was. and what the colors were You decided to try to do the work yourself and completely screwed it and yourself up in the process. Ok I'm cool with that. You thought it was alot and that you could do the work yourself.
This time there is no excuse. Everything was clearly written and explained to you. And NOW your letting me know?
Him -" I'm sorry. I don't want to argue with you"
Me- "We're not. Don't call me again. Just remember contractors talk to one another too. Good luck finding one that is going to be willing to do the work for you let alone at a price you want"
I get 2 or 3 of these every year
People complain about contractors.
Well this is a classic example of why some of us are as we are.
Some of the people arent any better.
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Note to all you innocent bystanders.
When you complain about contractors prices.
Several times per year I get people who rant.
"HOW DO YOU GUYS COME UP WITH THESE PRICES? I DONT MAKE THAT MUCH A DAY"
To put things into perspective consider this.
If you have a regular job. Barring the unforeseen you pretty much know where your going ot be working a month or 6 months from now.
Contractors particularly in the winter months often dont know not only where they are going to be working a month from now. Or even IF they are going to be working a month from now.
There are times whe I dont know if Im going to be working two weeks from now let alone a month.
Two winters ago I was out of work a total of 7 weeks over the course of the winter.
Now this isnt an unusual situation for alot of contractors. In the winter time it can be hit and miss, luck of the draw and all that.
Can you afford to not get paid for 7 weeks out of 16? Probably not.
So while in the winter months our prices are lower then in the summer when we are often REAL busy When we do work we still have to make sure we get paid enough to get us through the lean times.
Next point.
If you have a regualr job. odds are you get vacation time. Holiday time, and sick time.
We get none of that. Any day off is a day without pay.
And if its a day off thats going ot cost us money. such as going to the doctor or going on vacation. We loose twice.
We loose the days pay PLUS whatever it is we shell out..
Again. so when we do work we have to make sure we make enough to cover this.
Next point. Odds are you have some sort of health benifits in small or large part paid for by your employer. While you may pay for part of it. Your employer also pays for a large chunk of it.
Tell ya what. Price out how much it will cost you to provide your own health insurance and then compare it to how much is taken out of your paycheck.
you will see its quite a bit more to pay for it yourself.
Then there is workmans comp.
Those expences for us is ALL OURs
Next time you get a paycheck look not only how much you made in pay. But figure out how much your employer pays just to have you on the payroll
You might get or use a company car, van or truck.
Betcha you dont hav eto pay for the insurance on it .
And commercial insurance on a vehicle is anywhere from a third more to twice that as it is for your household car.
Then there is liability insurance, And licencing.
Something else you dont have to worry about.
Not to mention tools,pens,paper and other assorted supplies and equipment.
Also not to mention the state usually wants their cut in sales tax.
Next time you get a nosebleed and start screaming to yourself "How do they come up with these prices??"
Consider all these factors.
All you probably have to do is wake up. and go to work every day. All these other factors probably arent your problem. They are for your employer to worry about.
and all of that has to be taken care of before we can even think about other mundane things like paying the household bills like mortgage/rent. Gas & electric, Food,clothing
All those expences you dont have. Your employer and local contractors have.
Trust me. we WISH all the money we charged went all to us.
And trust me. Just because a business owner has his own business. Unless we have a multimillion dollar corporation It DOESNT mean we are rolling in dough.
Usually after all is said and done. We arent doing any beter then you are.
Hell alot of time we arent even doing as well as alot of you are.
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Heh, yeah people :)
I had a very similar incident once when I was doing the self-employed fix-other-people's-crap thing. Long story short, it went to absurd lengths and the result was that I repossessed a car from a local bank, and bent the bank VP who tried to screw me over his own barrel.
Another time a local used car dealer whose real business is dope smuggling tried to stiff me for what he owed on an engine repair I did on a Jaguar V12. My wife repossessed the car from his lot, and I had the pleasure of cussing the ******** out when he showed up with cash to pay. Then, six months later, his son's body was found shot dead and stuffed into the trunk of that same car (he apparently tried to stiff his suppliers, big mistake).
Point is, don't let it get to ya. Do what ya gotta do, do it right, the hell with what anybody thinks. Create good karma, you'll come out OK overall. The bad guys will get what they deserve. Sometimes you will have the pleasure of knowing, sometimes even helping dish it out to them ;)
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so you have to charge me more because you don't work all year? Who do you think you are, a school teacher? :lol
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Originally posted by john9001
so you have to charge me more because you don't work all year? Who do you think you are, a school teacher? :lol
No, the point is that you don't employ him, you have no clue what his expenses in doing your work are, so you don't get to pay him wages. He will give you an estimate up front, you accept or decline. Either way, you have no grounds to whine about it, so just STFU.
Did I get that about right, Dred? :D
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People, in general, are dumb.
Clearly you were raised, like most, to think most people are genuinely good and until proven otherwise, you give them the benefit of the doubt.
My contractor is a superbly talented guy who gets his fair share of "dreamers" who want quotes yearly, yet never do anything.
I have mine coming over next month to fix one of my bedroom ceilings. My girlfriend decided to move things around on the attic and felt walking on the unboarded insulation was a good idea. Now one room has a 1 foot by 2 foot hole in it. That's her priority with her tax refund
She tried to fault the design of the house, but the contractor gently assured her no one walks on exposed fiberglass insulation :) She wouldnt beleive me, but having someone put her in her place (without her knowing it) was pretty priceless to me.
Well, not really. $500 :)
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I hate contractors. In my experience, they're generally like a bunch of nine-year olds. You have to keep on 'em, check behind their work because they'll cut corners, they'll do sloppy work, or just leave stuff undone...
The guy that built my swimming pool was a piece of work. He estimated six weeks to do the job. We talked it over and agreed that he would start in January after the holidays. So... on the week of Thanksgiving, he calls me up and wanted to start right then. I said no way. Not going to put a big hole in the back yard over the holiday. That pissed him off, but he did start the pool in late January... and finished it in April... with me correcting his mistakes and oversights every step of the way.
A few years ago, we worked with a painting contractor for the exterior of the house. We got half a dozen estimates. Some really low, some really high. They guy we went with was somewhere near the mid to high range, but we went with him because his estimate was very detailed. It listed every task and the cost. The guy and his crew were great. They worked fast and they did a great job without me having to police them. Hell, they even came under the estimate.
I'm okay with paying more for a good contractor. The peace of mind is worth it.
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sandie... If you know so much about what is good or bad work and "cutting corners" then why don't you just do the job yourself?
lazs
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Back when I managed a contractor's front office we had a lot of conversations regarding high/low probability leads and how to best identify and handle them. In my own experience I have found there are a few "tells" customers present that can save a lot of time. I allowed my guys to use their discretion but after we started qualifying our prospects better there was a noticeable decrease in "useless leads" gripes. And eventually we noticed less "problem child" jobs.
Even the best radar can be tricked but these are the ones that I never pursue.
- Customer can't meet at the property, ever. I always try to walk a job with the customer. A motivated homeowner will always have time somewhere in the week to be available.
- The customer confirms the estimate is free within the first minute of the call and then keeps verifying, If I have to promise a fee estimate twice in one call, I'm suddenly too busy to take the work. It never fails that this job is going to a brother in law or whatever and you're there to keep him honest.
- A detailed itemization is required, including brand names. Again no work here, someone's trying to get you to do the takeoff so the B.i.L. doesn't have to think too hard.
- Similar to above, a "report" of some kind is requested stating condition or describing specific defects or other issues. Real customers want to know what's being done and how much. That's it.
- Customer talks about money before the job. Or wants to know if I will "beat his best estimate".
Probably wouldn't have screened the above mentioned homeowner but in his case I would have asked in detail about the status of the first bid before ever making a second appointment, then I would have told him I expected to get some work out of him or I' have to explain to my wife how I let a guy waste my time twice.
I know I'm a bit hard on prospects. Sales managers hated me. But the numbers speak for themselves. Unless you are in dire need of work, it's not wrong to set standards for who you work with. I found that I have a higher closing rate, on more profitable work, with much nicer clients when I'm a little demanding. And I'm hardly ever p.o.'d at myself for chasing a useless lead. Let the goofy contractors have the goofy clients they deserve each other.
Since I started doing my own thing a few years ago I have been burned exactly once. My mistake for taking sub work from an outfit that has a "best price" policy.
Of course if you're into a different thing the rules change but I work on residential repairs and rehabs, usually pretty custom stuff and the people that hire me fall into a fairly narrow definition. But it's never wrong to tell a customer no, or make them earn the privilege of your time.
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Geez laz, sniping so early in the morning?
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was a contractor for 15 years. Got a little tired of some of the guys who knew all about it but couldn't even drive a nail and didn't own a screwdriver.
lazs
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Ah, so couldnt stand a customer who was making sure he wasnt being gouged by someone. Gotcha! :p
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Originally posted by lazs2
sandie... If you know so much about what is good or bad work and "cutting corners" then why don't you just do the job yourself?
lazs
...because a professional can usually do the job faster than I can.
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and better. And legal and one that won't be a nightmare for the next guy who buys your home.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
and better. And legal and one that won't be a nightmare for the next guy who buys your home.
lazs
There, you've answered your own question. :aok
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I have done it before when a contractor.
I have asked the homeowner the same questions. You bid the work. You tell them what is involved. If they think you are cutting corners then they can pay extra to use whatever their vast experience tells them you need to use. or... they can do it themselves since they obviously know what is the right and wrong way to do the job.
lazs
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Being a DIY nut, if I can do the job myself, I will. But if I can't (or I screw it up) I will call in a pro without hesitation. When choosing a pro, I rely almost totally on
the opinions of my neighbors and co-workers. I absolutely will NOT patronize a business that has ill-treated someone I know and trust. In turn, I reccomend or not based on my experiences when I am asked.
Living in a smallish town (Cheyenne) has its perks. Businesses here don't survive long if they screw their customers.
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Back to Dred's rant/gripe --
Customers are a pain, but don't you have a written process to proceed with a job? IE customer has to sign a copy of the estimate that has the legal verbiage that cancellation with less than X days of notice is subject to cost of Y percentage of job? Typically if the agreement to do the job is in person, they expect a down payment also.
I'm leery of contractors who don't seem to follow good business practices regarding obtaining payment. If I get a quote that doesn't require payment until the end, I'm suspicious of the quality and timeliness of the work. I'd rather ensure that we have a binding agreement with the exchange of funds / paperwork so that if they agree in writing to X start date, it better by X start date and completion when they say there going to be done.
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For really involved projects, disclosure and stipulation is best put in writing but if somebody needs more than a handshake for $400.00 worth of work, they don't qualify.
Most of my stuff never winds up like it started, details change, scope of work evolves. Decisions are made in the field and executed immediately. I pale to consider what I'd have to charge if I documented half of the work I do. But like I said before, I work closely with customers usually in their homes. The people who I work with actually like not having to feel like they have to scrutinize and negotiate every detail. And they hate having to sign stuff. I keep the pressure low and so far it works 'bout all the time. The only times I have issues are when I break my own rules regarding the people I choose to work for.
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Got that Thruster, just my line of business entails billing rates around $150 to $300 per hour, so wasted hours, etc. really hurt both my business and the customers. We try to ensure accurate statements of work prior to committing to an engagement and do a tedious change request process to ensure both companies are satisfied with the product/result at the end of the day. Granted I'm not in the building trades, but in IT so a lot of what I wrote is carry over from having to deal day in and day out with people/companies in the IT field that like to whine and lowball/delay payment.
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Originally posted by culero
No, the point is that you don't employ him, you have no clue what his expenses in doing your work are, so you don't get to pay him wages. He will give you an estimate up front, you accept or decline. Either way, you have no grounds to whine about it, so just STFU.
Did I get that about right, Dred? :D
Thats about it yea.
I give a price for a job say for $400.
People only think. "wow" he's getting $400" as though I get to keep all That for myself. that its all profit.
What people dont see are all the expences involved and contingancies you have to plan for.
IF I was a schoolteacher I would know exactly how many days im getting paid for over the course of the year. I would know exactly how much I was going to make. and when I knew I woudlnt be working.
I could plan my finances accordingly.
Personally I have no sympathy for the wage complaints of teachers.
They for the most part make a damn good penny for the amount of days they have to work.
With me. I dont know from month to month or from year to year how much Im going to make until it happens.
And there are all sorts of things that can go wrong even in the busy months to effect that..
For example I could have a $10,000 exteriour planned for June. And I figure its going to take the entire month to do.
But if it rains every other day. Now that one month job just turned into a two month job. And if I havent had any interior work comming in. I sit those days..Without pay
Now instead of making 10 grand in one month. Im only making 5 grand that month. Or I could get delayed by a builder. Or any of a number of reasons.
Thats a hypothetical but I think you get the point that even if its busy and I have the work. That doesnt mean I can count on having X amount of dollars in X amount of time.
But during that time excluding material costs I still have the same expences reguardless of how much I bring in.
Business and Van and health insurance still has to be paid. Maintenance still has to be done. And then there is still the household related expences.
All which have to be paid no matter if I bring in $1K or $10K.
Now lets say I do get the job done in a month and I make the 10K.
Lets say. again hypothetically that my monthly expences are $5K
Ok now I have an extra 5 grand. Yippie
Toss that in the bank for hard times or unexpected repairs
You would be amazed how fast that 5 grand can evaporate. Even with a day or two off here or there. Or a vehicle breakdown It all adds up. before you realise it. Its gone.
Or you make 10 grand that month. but the next month is incredibly slow. Or a job falls though.
Now this instance was a pretty small job. only a few days work.
But I've also had it happen as a matter of fact in Jan of 07 where I was on the mans doorstep to start the job and he told me he changed his mind.
And this was something I figured was going to be 3 weeks worth of work. With nothing else scedualed or I coud start for 5 weeks.
Probably the closest I've ever come to having a nervous breakdown...or killing someone. LOL
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Originally posted by Sandman
I hate contractors. In my experience, they're generally like a bunch of nine-year olds. You have to keep on 'em, check behind their work because they'll cut corners, they'll do sloppy work, or just leave stuff undone...
The guy that built my swimming pool was a piece of work. He estimated six weeks to do the job. We talked it over and agreed that he would start in January after the holidays. So... on the week of Thanksgiving, he calls me up and wanted to start right then. I said no way. Not going to put a big hole in the back yard over the holiday. That pissed him off, but he did start the pool in late January... and finished it in April... with me correcting his mistakes and oversights every step of the way.
A few years ago, we worked with a painting contractor for the exterior of the house. We got half a dozen estimates. Some really low, some really high. They guy we went with was somewhere near the mid to high range, but we went with him because his estimate was very detailed. It listed every task and the cost. The guy and his crew were great. They worked fast and they did a great job without me having to police them. Hell, they even came under the estimate.
I'm okay with paying more for a good contractor. The peace of mind is worth it.
I never accept final payment untill the job is completed in full and the customer is completely satisfied . Within reason.
And I always tell my customers they are not only welcome but wanted to doublecheck my work. In fact I cont on it. Just in case. Because while I am very good. I am human and not perfect. the last perfect person died about 2,000 years ago.
So If I accidentally miss something and you see it. tell me about it so I can fix it.
And that includes after the job is completed and paid for.
The only thing is while I will try like hell. I cant always turn watermelon into gold. I can only work with whats there. If its not new construction. odds are it wont look like new construction without newly reconstructing it.
You can get contractors who will do either shoddy work,will cut corners or simply just dont care.
Others are great.
You either just have bad luck with contractors. Or are unrealistic in what you want and expect.
Based on your pool and paint scenareo. I'd say the former is the case.
On the other hand.
I've also seen people complain about contractors. then myself go and do work for them only to find out that the problem wasnt with the contractors work. But in the way the homeowner wanted the contractor to do the work.
Or understood within a day because the homeowner was such a nit picky PIA exactly why the homeowner cant get contractors to come back.
I have a regular customer who is like that. she currently has an electrician, a plumber, a carpenter and a tile man refusing to do work for her because she is such a PIA. Often wanting the unrealistic.
For some reason her and I get along. But I also know what to expect with her.
That doesnt mean we dont go round and round with what she wants vrs what she can actually have. Like I said. I cant turn watermelon into gold at any price. I can just disguise it real good so it doesnt look as much like watermelon LOL
Then you have others who no matter what you do just arent going to be happy.
then my favorites are the ones that because they watched a couple of episodes of "This Old House" Or atteded a Home Depot Seminar. they think they know what they are talking about.
got news for ya's. im not real impressed with most of the folks on This Old house. and if the people at home Depot were so good....
They woudlnt be working at Home Depot.
;)
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I'll bet that you're the of guy that takes pride in doing a good job.
Quite often I need ask just one question, "Would you leave it this way if it was your house?"
Far too often, the pool guy's answer was, "No."
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People think that the amount of bad contractors is only contained to the contractor profession.
A topic that OFTEN comes up in my studies is how Contractors are the least trusted profession. Second and third are Used Car Sales Men and Lawyers.
Even past that, we are having trouble attracting qualified applicants. While it is hard work, it makes for a decent career. But with the pressure from the parents to recommend that EVERYONE should go to college, it would be career suicide for a High School Counselor to say, "College might not be right for you. You can make a decent living being a [contractor, garbage man, State Department of Traffic]."
Because of this, the profession can only attract those who enjoy doing the work, regardless of pay, and those that are in it to screw other people, regardless of career.
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Originally posted by forHIM
Back to Dred's rant/gripe --
Customers are a pain, but don't you have a written process to proceed with a job? IE customer has to sign a copy of the estimate that has the legal verbiage that cancellation with less than X days of notice is subject to cost of Y percentage of job? Typically if the agreement to do the job is in person, they expect a down payment also.
I'm leery of contractors who don't seem to follow good business practices regarding obtaining payment. If I get a quote that doesn't require payment until the end, I'm suspicious of the quality and timeliness of the work. I'd rather ensure that we have a binding agreement with the exchange of funds / paperwork so that if they agree in writing to X start date, it better by X start date and completion when they say there going to be done.
In this situation it was very short notice.
I didnt initially take a deposit because I couldnt guarantee that I was going ot be able to do it that soon.
And when I knew I could it was a matter of a phone call.
Even if I accepted a deposit on Friday. I't wouldnt have cleared till Monday at the earliest.
Same problem with if I had accepted one yesterday (Sunday)
Plus. Todays work was a one day job. Taking all that into consideration. I didnt see the point in getting a deposit on this job.
Even then. because of the short time span. Even if he had gien me a deposit. he was within the legal timeframe to demand a refund of that deposit. So it really didnt matter.
Todays estimate was for another smallish job. 2,3 days tops And was accepted on the spot but not to be done for another two weeks. Given the time span in this case. I did take a 10% deposit. Now. With another 20% due on the start date.
Inasmuch as it is a smallish job. I wont accept another payment beyond that 30% until the job is complete.
On larger jobs. and/or if I get a feeling about someone I will demand a greater deposit up front. That amount varies depending on the feel I have for someone.
I'm usually pretty good at getting a feel for people. Every once in a a while Im wrong.
In this case all signs yesterday pointed to me doing the work.
More often then not. If someone has me do an esimate on one thing. Then calls back and asks for an estimate on other work as well.
I end up getting about 99% of those jobs.
In fact my last customer was one of those.
First gave an estimate on her bedroom. Then called me back to do an estimate on doing the doors throughout her house. Haanging and finishing one new door, and an assortment of other odds and ends.
And a one day job turned into a 7 day job.
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Originally posted by lazs2
sandie... If you know so much about what is good or bad work and "cutting corners" then why don't you just do the job yourself?
lazs
That`s what I do. Most anything I need done building, painting , roofing, etc. I do myself. That way I know it is done right. Been there done that........BUT....some can, some can`t.