Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Toad on January 21, 2008, 09:07:48 PM
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My old, old 'puter finally choked on it's mobo. The Dr. says its bits are too old to bother with replacing the mobo. I guess an AMD T-bird and a GeForce 5900 are no longer the cutting edge of gaming computers.
So I checked out Anandtech's suggested budget gamer. I don't need the monitor as the 21" NEC will do for a while longer and I'll get a 2ms LCD flatscreen when it croaks. I also have a legal XP Home, so I don't need the OS. I can have Mwave put this together (with a E4600) and tested for ~$825 shipped to my door.
Processor Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 (2.2GHz 65W Allendale 2MB L2) -
Motherboard Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3L Intel P35 ATX
Memory Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2-800 PC2-6400
Video Card PNY GeForce 8800GT 512MB PCI-e 2.0 HDCP
Hard Drive Samsung SpinPoint T Series HD321KJ
320GB 16MB 7200RPM SATA 3.0GB/s
Optical Drive Samsung 20X DVDRW/DL SH-S202G -
Case APEX TU150 Black Steel ATX with 400W
Any obvious bad choices? Suggestions for low cost effective upgrades? Better dealers than Mwave?
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Nothing "bad" at all....except thew PS is bare minimum.
It's a P35 MB which is what you want IMO. The new ATI VC's are supposed to be very good for roughly $200 or so...I'd at least look at one to compare...
With no OS that seems a bit steep but I dont know the build market...
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Double-check prices on newegg.com, since that should let you see where you might be able to make a jump in performance for not much $$$. For example...
I'd go for a slightly faster cpu. I'd try to get either the 4600 (200 more mhz for $20, not bad) or make the jump to the ones with 4mb of cache instead of the 2mb in the 4500 and 4600. But that's just me.
I had good luck with g-skill memory. Sometimes it's a bit cheaper than crucial. Look into a 4 gb kit too (2x2gb). Yea windows won't use all of it now (you'll probably get 3gb usable), but you keep your computers around so long that the NEXT operating system just might be able to use all 4 gig. And memory is cheap right now. No matter how much you get, try to get memory speeds that match the cpu bus speed.
I'd get the 500 gig version of that same samsung drive because the price/gig bottoms out at the 500 gig size. I have 6 of these (4 in a RAID NAS box, 1 in my main rig, and 1 in an external USB chassis) and they all run fast, cool, and quiet. You should pay about $115ish for the 500GB version.
For a power supply, I have had very good luck with seasonic. Every review I've read, even the ones that stress the power supplies up to 100% of rated power in a hot environment, have good results for seasonic PSUs. They cost a bit more but they're also very quiet.
The 8800GT is a good video card. You'll be able to run a pretty high FSAA setting in AH with that sucker ;) You will want a decent power supply plugged into it though.
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Isn't 400W the absolute minimum PS for a 8800GT? Says it draws 26A from 12V.
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Toad if you're going to upgrade don't upgrade to a 2 year old processor!
Even though you can overclock that 4500 like I did in my kids box, ever since I installed the cpu I've itched to upgrade it. If you see all that trouble to set up a new computer with 8800GT nonetheless(!) get a proper cpu. E6850 or Q6600 suggested.
Seriously, E4500 is not worth it. It's already generations old. Wrong place to save in that system.
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Don't know about the motherboard. It's probably okay. That PS has got to be rated much higher. Probably around 600w and up. I have to agree with MrRipley on the processor, although I think intel is the right way to go from what others say.
One tid bit more of info. I don't know about the Nivida 8800gt. I hear they are very good. I use the ati 3870 and it is sweet!
Are we nit-picky or what. However, if you wan the best game play I like all the suggestions I have read so far.
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Newegg's "Choice Awards" for CPU's goes to the Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0 Ghz LGA 775. Cost = $280
I'm about to build a new box using that CPU as it got high mark reviews. Think about dropping back to a GeForce 8600GT 512MB and putting the extra $ into a CPU that will keep you on the high end of the curve for a couple of years.
You might want to consider a better PS. I'm using a Silencer 610W ($120) with a Antec 900 ATX mid tower ($120)
All prices are Newegg.
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Btw... if anyone wants to offer comments/suggestions on the configuration I'm looking at, jump in.
Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 3.0 ghz 775
Abit IP35 Pro LGA Intel P35 ATX
Silencer 610w PS
Antec 900 ATX mid tower
EVGA GeForce 8600GT 512 MB 128 bit GDDR3 PCIx16
Crucial Ballistix 2 X 1GB 240 oin DDR2 SDRAM
Seagate Barracuda NS 320GB 7200
Lite-On 20X DVD+R DVD 12X DVD-RAM
SB Audigy SE 7.1 PCI
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Originally posted by Max
Newegg's "Choice Awards" for CPU's goes to the Intel Core 2 Duo E6850 Conroe 3.0 Ghz LGA 775. Cost = $280
I'm about to build a new box using that CPU as it got high mark reviews. Think about dropping back to a GeForce 8600GT 512MB and putting the extra $ into a CPU that will keep you on the high end of the curve for a couple of years.
I HIGHLY recommend not getting a video card lower than an 8800 series if you want to go Nvidia.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Toad if you're going to upgrade don't upgrade to a 2 year old processor!
I agree, that cpu doesn't offer much more performance than the E2180 which is cheaper. I also recommend the Q6600. The quad core won't help you much right now, but in time it will make a big difference. Quad core is the best cpu to use in a system you intend to keep for an extended time period.
Dual core's will be cheaper and faster right now, but once software is written for that quad core....you'll rock.
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Originally posted by Fulmar
I HIGHLY recommend not getting a video card lower than an 8800 series if you want to go Nvidia.
Reasons please? Any Radeon cards I should consider in the $150 or less price range? GF8800GT's are almost 2x the cost. Just curious.
Thanks
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Originally posted by Max
Reasons please? Any Radeon cards I should consider in the $150 or less price range? GF8800GT's are almost 2x the cost. Just curious.
Thanks
I just bought a Radeon 3850 with 512mb of ram, I love it. It runs everything I've thrown at it, including Crysis, at max settings.
You can pickup a Radeon 3850 with 256mb of ram for around 150ish.
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Do not get the 8600gt. I think Skuzzy posted not to get the 8600gt somewhere (forgive me If Im wrong here Skuzzy) One of my Squaddies bought one and had to return it. I bought one and am currently not using it. I think it was AGP though. Look at the ATI 3850 or3870. I have the 3870 and it is sweet. It's around 250 bucks maybe cheaper now.
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Nvidia 8800GT 512mb is the best bang for buck at the moment. The new 8800GTS 512mb is also awesome for $300.
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OK, looking through the suggestions, I did a quick trip through the Mwave parts bin and come up with this:
ABIT IP35 PRO intel p35 chipset ATX form factor
CORE 2 QUAD Q6600 2.4G (1066Mhz)
CRUCIAL 2GB KIT BL2KIT12864AA1065
XFX Geforce 8800 gt 512mb 625MHz DDR3 pcie 2.0
COOLER MASTER rc-690-kka1-gp cosmos 690 (black) mid tower rohs cetified w/550w sli certified power supply
WD 500gb WD5000AAKS SATA2 16mb 7200rpm
SAMSUNG SH-S202G/BEBN black 20x DVD burner w/software
~ $1150 shipped to my door; call it $300 more.
We bumped the price 40%. Did the performance jump 40%? Will I really notice a difference if I only use this thing for AH, Turbotax, E-mail and surfing the BBS?
I can spend it if there really is an amazing gain. But as has been pointed out, I'm not an "early adopter". I generally milk these machines until they croak simply because I don't really do that much that requires a lot of horsepower. In fact, AH is the most demanding thing I ask my puter to do.
Realistically, will I notice that much difference in playing AH over the next 3 years or so with the much more expensive machine when compared to the older tech cheaper one?
Thanks for the replies, btw; I enjoyed reading the input.
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Originally posted by Toad
We bumped the price 40%. Did the performance jump 40%? Will I really notice a difference if I only use this thing for AH, Turbotax, E-mail and surfing the BBS?
No. My wife asked me the same question :D
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If really the only "intensive" thing you plan to do is run AHII, then you can save big bucks on the video card.
I just bought a 7900GS for just over $100, and on my E6300 (1.86 GHz core-duo) processor I get:
1280X1024 Resolution @ 75 Hz
1024 Textures (Hi-Res pack installed)
Sliders all at MAX
W/ V-sync on (75 FPS max)
I average 75FPS 90% of the time.
Close to the ground I dip down to 68-70FPS (60-65 if Ground mode)
And in heavy furballing I MIGHT occasionally see 55 FPS.
If I don't have the FPS enabled at the top, I wouldn't even notice, as movement is so fluent, it's nearly impossible to notice.
Now you'll have a faster processor, so with the same video card you'll see even better numbers.
Yes an 8800GTS will probably give you a solid 75FPS, but is it worth the extra couple hundred dollars? AHII is not even close to the most graphics intensive game out there...
The thing about the 7XXX series of Nvidia cards it they are not Direct X 10 compatible.. but then again neither is Windows XP, nor Aces High.
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MB is great value...
ATI 3850 is more VC then you'll need...
See republics thread on CPU here, all you need is "entry level" so 1st choice was fine...
I'd keep the bigger PS and HD however...
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Originally posted by Max
Reasons please? Any Radeon cards I should consider in the $150 or less price range? GF8800GT's are almost 2x the cost. Just curious.
Thanks
The 8600s just aren't very fast that's all. If you try to run almost any new games with an 8600, chances are you'll be disappointed. AH will run fantastic on an 8600 but everything else is going to be run with "sliders at min", or the game equivalent of turning off most of the eye candy.
From the reviews I've been reading, the 8800GT is the lowest I'd ever consider for my own computer. My LCD is native 1280x1024, and the 8600 pretty much can't run any of the newer games at that resolution with the eye candy, FSAA, or ansio filtering turned on. I also would not ever consider SLI as a possible way to make up for anything slower.
That's why I've stuck with my 6800GT for so long... I don't currently play games very much and nothing but a fairly expensive 8800GT is even worth buying. So I'll keep my 6800GT which runs AH just fine, and when it's time to upgrade I'll buy a card that will run at my LCD's native resolution and still have some horsepower left over to turn on the eye candy or at least some FSAA.
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Toad,
If I was personally building a system that I'd be keeping for a while and not want to be tempted to throw a couple hundred bucks at every year or so, then the parts you quoted are VERY similar to what I'd get for myself.
The only thing I think you'll be tempted to upgrade in the next couple of years with that second parts list would be the memory, because someday windows will allow you to use more than 2 or 3 gigs and you'll find yourself swapping to disk when you boot up windows 2010.
But everything else looks almost exactly what I'd recommend for a system that won't need to be messed with for a while.
Yes the quad core cpus are a bit overkill *today*, but everyone seemed to bag on dual core cpus until they got one for themselves, and then they were immediate converts and swore they'd never buy a single core cpu again. Because even though few games actually use more than one cpu core, the whole system is more responsive with more than one core. At some point, we'll see that more than 2 cpus will show an improvement in system responsiveness.
The kicker for me with a system TODAY, is that a quad core cpu really isn't all THAT much more than a dual core cpu. Intel is being aggresive on pricing and isn't making the same mistake AMD made when they initially priced their dual core cpus at nearly 4 times the cost of a same-clockspeed single core cpu.
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Toad that is pretty much the system I could buy myself. With a good setup like that you can avoid upgrading for years and continue to have a good gaming experience.
If you go cheap now, you'll upgrade and next year you'll start to suffer from bad performance and will want to upgrade again.
The 8800GT is a no brainer - so is the faster CPU. Take them and you'll thank me for it later.
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I'm not sure I agree on the CPU at all...
Raw computing horsepower has outpaced the real demand for the average user by a wider margin. I do not disagree with the statements immediately above unless I put in the perspective of Toads comments here. In my mind the choice of MB is more important then the CPU. While the difference in price is fairly small so will the future "loss" incurred by upgrading later. Not only will quad prices fall but newer CPU's will emerge...in the current market I can see 1 and maybe 2 CPU upgrades on the same MB over the next 5 years...
As for VC I'd be curious on the comparisions of the 3850/70 vs the 8800GT's...
IMO the right MB & PS are the heart of the build, if they will support the "5 year plan" then all else fits into place.
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Humble, which MoBo are you supporting, the Abit or the Gigabyte? Or is it just the need for a P35 MoBo of some brand or other?
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Originally posted by humble
I'm not sure I agree on the CPU at all...
Raw computing horsepower has outpaced the real demand for the average user by a wider margin. I do not disagree with the statements immediately above unless I put in the perspective of Toads comments here. In my mind the choice of MB is more important then the CPU. While the difference in price is fairly small so will the future "loss" incurred by upgrading later. Not only will quad prices fall but newer CPU's will emerge...in the current market I can see 1 and maybe 2 CPU upgrades on the same MB over the next 5 years...
As for VC I'd be curious on the comparisions of the 3850/70 vs the 8800GT's...
IMO the right MB & PS are the heart of the build, if they will support the "5 year plan" then all else fits into place.
You're way off m8. The PSU and the MB are the smallest factor in the end performance. If the PSU offers enough power its enough - any bigger wont be faster. If the MB can host your CPU and have the features you wish - it's good enough and a different brand / model won't be more than 2% faster/slower. When you take into account that Intel offers no upgrade path socket wise there's no way you'll be able to upgrade that motherboard with a new CPU after 2-3 years anyway. So the only logical solution is to get a power performer now that will last as long as possible.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You're way off m8. The PSU and the MB are the smallest factor in the end performance. If the PSU offers enough power its enough - any bigger wont be faster. If the MB can host your CPU and have the features you wish - it's good enough and a different brand / model won't be more than 2% faster/slower. When you take into account that Intel offers no upgrade path socket wise there's no way you'll be able to upgrade that motherboard with a new CPU after 2-3 years anyway. So the only logical solution is to get a power performer now that will last as long as possible.
Actually I'm 100% right....
A power supply that doesnt have the correct distribution wont support future upgrades. The right one will be good beyond this one build..
Regardless of the "Future" everything currently available or near release is socket 775. He'll have plenty of time to pick up a quad CPU if/when he wants.
As I stated I dont disagree with the statements, except in the context of Toads questions/remarks. He wont go "wrong" either way. He certainly can do everything he wants to with the lesser CPU right now (based on his comments). If/when he wants to upgrade he can pick up a better CPU...probably for less total (for both) then the quad costs now. That doesnt make getting a quad cpu now the wrong move either. I built out a 6600 on a P5K-e MB when the P-35CS was just coming out. Basically exactly what your recommending now except the quads are the new best thing. It's good for years still but I'll grab a quad when they go "closeout" in another year or so...
Toad can get 85%+ of the performance of a 6600 and still grab a quad later. It's not a right or wrong choice if he has a clear understanding of his needs and the tradeoffs. His question was if he will see a big difference in performance with the 1st build vs the 2nd and my answer is still no..
However he should get a top notch PS not a 400W job. He needs to get some flavor of P-35 MB and should get a 3850/70 or 8800GT or drop back to a "budget" VC...the 8600 is a waste...
In the current world the CPU isnt the bottleneck in a dual core system for normal use. Currently PS is the biggest hurdle for most upgrades, very few systems even 2 yrs old have enough 12V rails and/or amps per rail. VC's are the 2nd "Bottleneck". AH however doesnt need alot and gains little from a "killer" VC so a 2nd generation card is fine. If I take V-snyc of my 7900GT runs AH at over 200 fps most of the time.
If I was doing a current build I'd put in a quad as well, but thats not answering Toads question in the context he put it. He will see a minimal difference (~10-15%){and probably much less} between the quad and "entry" cpu in the tasks he outlined and his FR in AH probably will be Vsync capped either way (assuming same VC in either system).
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If you haven't ordered yet, the latest Intel Penryn based chips are now available.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037)
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Originally posted by humble
However he should get a top notch PS not a 400W job. He needs to get some flavor of P-35 MB and should get a 3850/70 or 8800GT or drop back to a "budget" VC...the 8600 is a waste...
In the current world the CPU isnt the bottleneck in a dual core system for normal use. Currently PS is the biggest hurdle for most upgrades, very few systems even 2 yrs old have enough 12V rails and/or amps per rail. VC's are the 2nd "Bottleneck". AH however doesnt need alot and gains little from a "killer" VC so a 2nd generation card is fine. If I take V-snyc of my 7900GT runs AH at over 200 fps most of the time.
If I was doing a current build I'd put in a quad as well, but thats not answering Toads question in the context he put it. He will see a minimal difference (~10-15%){and probably much less} between the quad and "entry" cpu in the tasks he outlined and his FR in AH probably will be Vsync capped either way (assuming same VC in either system).
I beg to differ, sir, as future builds will be on 45nm or lower scaling, meaning that 400+W power supplies are a passing thing in history. The future yields will provide faster speeds with way lower power demands. Besides the PSU is a low expense and easy to replace part in the system, it's really not a critical part. I've never used anything but PSU's that came with the case when I've built systems (including quad-core) and they have run rock solid. There's no need to go above 400W in PSU unless you a) run a crappy ATI card such as 2900HD (guilty as charged) or b) run sli which makes you a sucker by definition anyway.
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1st, as stated above the 45nm chips are already here and they are socket 775. So the P-35 boards are already compatable with the upcoming set of chips. Further the driving force for PS's is the demand on the 12V rails. I've posted numerous times that you can run most systems on roughly 265W...but the distribution has to be right. Most 400W power supplies simply do not have enough amps on the 12v rails and not enough rails for a top end system. Overall demand for amps for VC's is going up not down. The 8800 ultra requires 34@ on the 12v rail. The 8800GTX requires 28@'s.
The single biggest mistake you see in a 1st time build is buying a case/PS combo that either wont run your 1st build right or doesnt support your future upgrade. A good PS is often as much as the MB or CPU. As for your thoughts on the future I think your misquided again. The 45nm technology will allow more pop with less heat...while you'll see a decrease in power demand at 1st what you'll quickly see is more capability for the same power demand.
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So if I were to buy a 45nm Wolfdale E8400 ($205) at Mwave... what kind of ram does that need? Seems like DDR3? And for cod's sake how does one make sense of the alphabet soup descriptions of ram choices?
For example there's a $4 difference between these two:
CRUCIAL ballistix tracer BL2KIT12864AL1065
CRUCIAL ballistix BL2KIT12864AA1065
It looks like the bundle ram options are all DDR2 on that.
And for that matter, the alphabet soup differences between MoBo's of the same basic alpha numerology?
Like the ASUS P5K-E intel p35 chipset vs the ASUS P5K-V intel p35 chipset or the ASUS P5K-C intel p35 chipset?
Are the differences so subtle that I can just pick one?
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Originally posted by Toad
So if I were to buy a 45nm Wolfdale E8400 ($205) at Mwave... what kind of ram does that need? Seems like DDR3? And for cod's sake how does one make sense of the alphabet soup descriptions of ram choices?
For example there's a $4 difference between these two:
CRUCIAL ballistix tracer BL2KIT12864AL1065
CRUCIAL ballistix BL2KIT12864AA1065
It looks like the bundle ram options are all DDR2 on that.
And for that matter, the alphabet soup differences between MoBo's of the same basic alpha numerology?
Like the ASUS P5K-E intel p35 chipset vs the ASUS P5K-V intel p35 chipset or the ASUS P5K-C intel p35 chipset?
Are the differences so subtle that I can just pick one?
For which type of RAM to use DDR2 or DDR3, you can use either. You'll want to obtain a 1:1 ratio of FSB to RAM Speed for optnium performance. If your ram clocks faster than your FSB, you see very minute gains in performance, if at all.
To figure out what speed ram you need for 1:1 ratio is done by:
The C2D have a quad pumped FSB. So an E8400 has a 1333mhz FSB. Take 1333mhz divided by 4 =~ 333mhz.
So you'll need at least DDR2 667mhz (333mhz x 2 - for DDR2) or DDR3 1066mhz (~350mhz x 3 - for DDR3)
DDR3 is really expensive and not really worth it at this time since DDR2 is so cheap. Most DDR2 is the 800mhz variety (which won't be any better than DDR2 667mhz). 667mhz and 800mhz DDR2 run about the same price, sometimes 800 is cheaper. Buying faster ram allows for overclocking (but thats a whole different thread.
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As for that Crucial part #. Who knows what the difference is. For the Asus motherboard. They're probably (didn't look it up, but I've known Asus products for years) the same motherboard (chipset and main features), but one model may have different accessories like a wireless card or something else additional.
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Whats really important is the northbridge chipset. All P-35 boards are going to be similiar in performance. As fulmar said its more bells and wistles then anything else. Personally if you can get the abit board you listed its a great deal IMO.
You can use any memory the MB supports, the CPU is not geared to either DDR2 or DDR3. The E8400 is a great deal IMO for a cutting edge chip. Your not going to go wrong building out a box centered on it in anyway. Given the reality of the lowend chip the differential is well worth it. Again, in the context of your original posts your not going to really gain a thing based on your current usage...but the system will be significantly more powerful and need no upgrade for a good 3 yrs+ or longer while its possible that even the new AH release (if, when, if ever) will bog down an entry level dual core (I doubt it).
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Originally posted by humble
Nothing "bad" at all....except thew PS is bare minimum.
It's a P35 MB which is what you want IMO. The new ATI VC's are supposed to be very good for roughly $200 or so...I'd at least look at one to compare...
With no OS that seems a bit steep but I dont know the build market...
Ya what he said! Don't scrimp on the PS. Power much more critical with these new fangled computers.
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OK, I think I'm going to do this deal with Mwave. I'll let them assemble and test because it's worth $80 to me to have no DOA/compatibility issues.
ASSEMBLY & testing - add to cart
assemble your selected configuration
load necessary software/drivers
test & check compatibility
no refunds on assembly/testing
please allow 5-7 working days for assembly
$79.99 $79.99
SKU:ASSEMTEST
INTEL Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0 GHZ EM64T 1333MHZ RETAIL BOXED BUNDLE W/
ABIT IP35 PRO
STANDARD MEMORY OPTIONS
CRUCIAL 2GB KIT BL2KIT12864AA804
TESTING OPTIONS
$451.50 $451.50
SKU:MB-BA24501 -BA23927 - -BA23794 -
MWAVE 6k11bboh58 (black) micro ATX mini tower w/585w power supply 2x5.25" 2x3.5" 2x3.5"(hidden) w/ front i/o connectors
EXTRA 80mm FAN(BLACK)
$46.95 $46.95
SKU:BA24486 -BA01080
XFX geforce 8800 gt 256mb 600mhz pci express dual DVI/tv-out (retail) ($10 Mail-In Manufacturer Rebate Available from 01/01/08 till 01/31/08)
$213.63 $213.63
SKU:4494726
WD 500gb WD5000AAKS SATA2 16mb 7200rpm (bare drive)
EXTERNAL ENCLOSURE OPTIONS
DATA CABLE OPTIONS
$99.99 $99.99
SKU:AA66870 - -
SAMSUNG sh-s203b/bebn black 20x double layer DVD+/-rw SATA drive w/software (bare drive)
ADD-ON MEDIA OPTIONS (NO STOCK - ESTIMATE ARRIVAL ON 1/25/2007).
$29.99 $29.99
SKU:AA71760 -
Sub Total $922.05 + $26 shipping, at my door for $948.56
Thanks for all the help so far.
Please give this one last look and critique and see if I missed anything.
As I said before, I have a legal Home XP to load up when it gets here so I don't need to line Bill's pockets one more time.
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That buildout looks pretty good. A couple "last" comments...
Consider keyboard and mouse changes if you're not happy with what you have. For that matter, make sure your new mobo has the right connectors for your kb/mouse. My favorite keyboard has a ps2 connector, and some mobos don't have those anymore.
Consider a dual monitor setup. I go nuts now at work when I have to use a single monitor system. Dual monitors is really nice. The secondary monitor doesn't even have to be very good... You can get 4:3 aspect ratio 19" LCDs for under $150 if you shop around. Yea the cheapo ones sometimes suck but how good does your secondary monitor really have to be if you have a high quality primary one?
Case... Make sure micro-ATX is "big enough". You might see cooling issues with micro ATX cases that can only be solved by putting in loud 80mm case fans. 120mm fans are a heck of a lot quieter so a good case will often have room for one 120mm fan in the front and 1 120mm fan in the back.
Power supply... You're paying under $50 for both a case and power supply, and that PSU will be feeding about $900 worth of other hardware... Are you sure you want to do that?
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but if you have any system instability and that power supply is not a brand name known for realy good power supplies, then you may end up dropping another $130 on a high quality PSU down the road. Do NOT get a power supply branded by a company that makes something else that is good, unless you read a really competent review of that specific power supply and buy the exact same one. Also, cheap PSUs often fail in spectacular fashion, taking out everything from the wall socket to the keyboard and monitor. A good power supply will go "pop" and shut itself off before ruining anything else.
Examples - I once bought a thermaltake silent purepower. Thermaltake is a known name brand, so why not? Well, it was a piece of crap. Total waste of money, and my system was unstable and I never could figure it out, until I swapped it out for a seasonic. Since the swapout a year ago, my system has had maybe 2 unexplained crashes.
Antec... Known for cases, but some of their OEM PSUs and PSUs that ship pre-installed in their cases are total crap. Some Antec PSUs are good though, so you just need to buy the right one. CoolerMaster power supplies... Well, they got well known making heatsinks and other items, but they don't make their own PSUs. They just buy someone else's PSU and slap their label on it. Again, YMMV but you need to be really careful buying from companies that do not actually manufacture their own PSUs or have exclusive manufacturing done for them. Seasonic is one of only a few that I trust, both from personal experience and from reading review after review praising them. I don't remember reading a single seasonic PSU review that said they sucked. I don't think I can say that about any other brand PSU. I even read about some top-end Antec PSUs that sucked. Not seasonic.
Again, YMMV so if you have system instability down the road, consider spending the money for a PSU from a company with a near-flawless reputation for building PSUs, not some other product. Antec does cases, coolermaster does heatsinks, thermaltake does heatsinks, thermalright does heatsinks... If you want a case, get an Antec or Lian-Li. If you want a heatsink, get a thermalright. If you want a PSU, buy from a real PSU manufacturer.
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Keep in mind that many of these PSU stories are myths and exaggerations. If your PSU fits the required specs you'd be foolish to pay extra for 200-300W that you don't need. These oversized PSU's are aimed towards enthusiasts who run SLI, tri-SLI or even quad-SLI systems with high-end graphics that take more power than the rest of the computer alone. Overclockers require high amps and PSU stability as they alter the voltages and push the hardware way beyond the specs. I don't think hardcore overclocking or SLI is what you're thinking here.
Actually one thing that you should try to look for in the PSU is quietness. Many of the more powerful PSU's are equipped with a high power fan that creates 80% of the noise the computer makes.
I don't know about the rest of you but I usually leave the old computer to some other familymember or sell it once it's time to upgrade. So it's really not worth the while to pay a double price for a PSU just to 'leave room' for future upgrades that may never come or will quite possibly run at lower power than the hardware used now. Each new generation that came out lately (CPU/GPU) had die shrinks and consequently lower power consumption. Future builds from Intel will ditch socket 775 so your upgrade stops there anyway.
The final thing is that the PSU will not affect your computer speed in any way, if it runs in general of course. Your computer will not be one bit faster with a 1.5 kilowatt PSU, just more expensive.
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You've been "Supersized." :D $25-$50 more for this and that and this, but none of it adds anything to the experience or purpose you said you had in all this. AH will tax your machine the most; everything else would probably run fine on the computer you had before the one you're replacing now. Here's an example of "Supersizing": How much disk space are you using now? I'll throw out a wild guess that after all the years you've had your current computer, you have less than 30 GB of stuff on your hard disk. Do you really think that you will use 500GB of hard disk space?
Don't let these guys convince you that you'll see any noticeable difference in Aces High performance from one dual core Intel to another. Even a two-year old technology Conroe 6420 will never break a sweat running Aces High. You can run your other stuff on a Pentium II 66 Mhz like you had 15 years ago.
Power supplies can be a weak link. Not just total power, but quality of that power and reliability. A few $ more for a good brand is not a bad idea.
Mico ATX? I'd say get a standard ATX case, unless you live in a closet and use a TV tray as your desk because you don't have space for a desk. What if you want to change something later? You're an old fart who likely needs glasses just to see inside the case anyway, and your fingers don't need to be smashed and squished inside a tiny case.
You can't go wrong with a good ATX form case and an Asus motherboard. You can't get much more reliable or easier than an Asus P5B. You could put it all together standing on your head.
Uh... sound card? You going to move over your existing card, right? You don't want to use on-board sound chip because that negates all the benefits of the new processor(s).
Anyway, you can max all sliders, run hi resolution textures, see all skins and have a great AH experience with almost any dual core Intel system. Setting up things right is probably more important than the hardware... Do you have a good router? If so, make sure you use the built-in firewall and shut down Windows firewall.
Only use IE to do your Microsoft updates and access it directly via start>All programs>Windows update. Download and use Firefox for your Internet browsing. If you are a masochist and insist on using IE, do not download the latest version. Immediately disable DirectX and active scripting except for microsoft domains.
Download and install Mozilla Thunderbird for email. Do not open or use Outlook or Outlook Express.
Do not use ActiveX (Internet Explorer) or open any email attachments and you won't need any anti-virus software. Do not install or buy any anti-virus software. It's a racket.
For Aces High, download FSAutostart (google it). You can list all running programs and services with it and follow the recommendations of what you can stop then restart for each by mousing over each item. After setting the action, set Aces High as the application to launch. You can launch FSAutostart from a desktop shortcut. It will stop the programs and services you selected and launch Aces High. It will restart everything after you quit Aces High.
Good luck and see you on the other side when you get it up and running.
P.S. Save your current settings folder from Aces High somewhere (USB Memory goober?) and paste it back again so you won't have to reset all your views and stick settings.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Do you really think that you will use 500GB of hard disk space?
HD space is cheap and it runs out surprisingly quick. I have 1Tb and 30% free right now.
Don't let these guys convince you that you'll see any noticeable difference in Aces High performance from one dual core Intel to another. Even a two-year old technology Conroe 6420 will never break a sweat running Aces High. You can run your other stuff on a Pentium II 66 Mhz like you had 15 years ago.
Not with AH but if he wants to play other games it's a major factor. In order to make the most out of the 8800GT a 4500 isn't going to cut the mustard. It's old. Period.
Power supplies can be a weak link. Not just total power, but quality of that power and reliability. A few $ more for a good brand is not a bad idea.
A silent quality PSU is ok, oversizing is a waste of money as it doesn't effect the speed.
Mico ATX? I'd say get a standard ATX case
My thoughts exactly unless he has wife ack.
Do not use ActiveX (Internet Explorer) or open any email attachments and you won't need any anti-virus software. Do not install or buy any anti-virus software. It's a racket.
Famous last words. You need to be super careful and NEVER open anything from the internet to survive without AV. I left my Vista box without AV and never opened anything from unsafe sources. My son, daughter or wife did. End of story. If you choose not to install AV you absolutely need to scan your box regularly with some external tools. Otherwise you'll continue internet banking happily with 10 keyloggers churning in the background and never even know it. Or get a letter from FBI that your broadband IP was used in Denial of Service attacks.
Most importantly, get Windows XP for your OS.
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Rolex, you are correct and I know that.
That's why I titled that one post "Mission Creep".
But upon reflection, it does seem there are large leaps in tech available for small change.
The first system trial ballon I floated, the E4500, priced out about $825, a bit more maybe because I think I didn't actually have shipping in there.. maybe $850 then.
This last trial balloon, with the E8400 would be $950, about $100 more.
That's a lot of HP for a hundred bucks; it may well be worth it in terms of longevity considering how long I keep a machine limping along.
Also, the E6420 is actually more than the E8400 on Mwave; $211 vs $209. The E4500 is $122.
HD? I had a 160GB on my dead puter and I had about 35GB free. I hold a lot of pictures on the HD, mostly of dogs, pheasants and the great outdoors. I need to burn them off the HD though, because when the HD croaks.. it's a PITA. :) I probably could go with a smaller HD and save $50 or so if I got down in the 160 range again. I might do that since the new one would have a DVD burner.
I did have doubts about the Micro ATX case. I could actually use my old ATX case if I decide to do a home build; it still works. :) I could just slip in a good PSU; it already has 3 80mm fans. I just spec'd a case because I will probably let Mwave build/test for the aforementioned DOA reasons. I would like a silent PSU for sure.
ASUS is a good MoBo, although my one DOA was actually an ASUS. I've used ABIT and Gigabyte and been least impressed with the Gigabytes. Two died eventually to capacitor leaks but they did last me years in their defense.
I need an education on the on-board sound thing. I've always used a card, the last one a Turtle Beach (which has not been as compatible as I would like). But guys like Rude are telling me that there is no longer a need for a card, that the OB sound is fine. What's the real deal here? I can get an Audigy if necessary.
As for wife ack, we're married 34 years next month. Ack is rare, light, inaccurate and ineffective. :)
As for saving settings and such, the dead puter (the Gigabyte leaker) also had some bad sectors on the HD. I think I'll transfer the remaining good data to an external HD, transfer again to the new puter when built then wipe the external and use it for a backup in the future.
So, waddayathink of the plans now?
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It's not a question of "oversize" but "rightsize". I agree completely that computing power has outstripped normal use in everything but games. Your totally wrong on disk space however. More and more things eat up space so most people have roughly 45-60G of "Stuff". If we look to the reality of downloadable content and the continueing emergence of video/photo use then a larger HD(s) makes sense.
Looking at the mwave site I'm concerned at the skimpy documentation on the case/PS in question. Might be absolutely great....then again...
Looking at the cheapest thermaltake its $30 after rebate...
THERMALTAKE wingrs 100 VG1000BNS
I'd recommend this PS out of your options...
PS (http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewproduct.asp?PID=PW500-OCZ&updepts=PS-600WP&DNAME=Power+Supply+%2D+500W+%2D+695W+)
It'll run what your building just fine and give you some margin without being overkill. Note that even on a good 600W PS your only getting 18@ per 12V rail.
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Onboard sound is more and more efficient, but is a bit of a drain. On the box your building it wont matter with your usage. I'd go with the onboard and add a SC if you have issues...
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Humble,
There's two PSU's on that page? Which one, the higher or lower priced one?
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I think either would be fine. My only question on the cheaper one is can you draw more amps on a 12V rail. Where most PS's "cheat" you is that they list a total power thats "theoretically" available but when you add it up the "485W" PS only puts out a total of 430W. This one will give you a true 600Ws and it puts the power where you need it. Ideally I'd like to see a 22@ 12V rail. The specs dont really tell you if you can draw more then 18@ (you should be able to) on a rail....just that all 4 rails will draw 18@'s at the same time (very important that any box with multiple 12V rails has this). My PS will give me 26@ on the primary but just 16@ on the 2nd rail.
The 2nd one is an "SLI" PS...its probably worth the few bucks but they're basically the same thing...i'm gonna go to the site and see what the man has available for specsheet on the 2nd...either woud be good.
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The 2nd gives you 72 amps across the 12V rail which is the same as the 1st. The only question is will the 1st give you the full 72@'s across all 4 rails.
If you read the various reviews on the OCZ (http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/power_management/ocz_600w_stealthxstream_power_supply) site it seems the cheaper one is basically the same...but it doesnt quarantee the SLI aspect so its possible that sightly different components are used.
After reading the reviews I'd stick with the cheaper one. Both have 3 yr unconditional "hotswap" gaurantee's. Unless your gonna run in SLI where you might need the full 36@'s per VC I doubt theres any difference at all.
These guys are making some of the best "budget" PS's in the world right now. Very good PS at an excellent price point. Yes you can get a PS for less and it might be very good...but 70%+ of the time when you lose a MB, VC or other component the real problem was the PS itself. If you look at the rockbottom price for a PS as $25 vs $75 for a good one in a $1000 build. For 5% premium your getting a PS that will safeguard everything else you bought.
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Your build looks solid Toad, I think you'll be much happier with the E8400. My machine has 4GB of memory (only 3.25GB seen because of Windows 32bit) and I need that for Supreme Commander and video editing...but for AH 2GB is way more than enough.
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Toad if you're going to not to install AV at all, do yourself a favor and at least scan it periodically. I usually keep my AV off when gaming but then scan the computer thoroughly a few times a year. The first time in 5 years I found a virus (happened just last week) was with the oh-so-secure Vista with no AV.
Well I did have UAC disabled but still.. :rolleyes:
Not having found a virus for 5 years made me think also I'm impervious to their attacks but I was soon proved wrong.
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AVG is one of the best AV programs and its free for home use. I'd highly recommend it along with nanoscan (panda) as an active online scan. Run AVG once a day and nanoscan once a week to be sure.
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With regards to Power Supplies what are you calling rails? The main lines that come from the ps and then are distributed by the different connectors on that line?
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The total wattage on a PS is going to be broken down into various voltages. The 12V capability has become more and more important as video cards demand more power. Top end cards require more power then they can draw from the PCI-e or AGP slot. So a seperate dedicated power supply is needed. This issue is often combounded since the total watts are distributed across multiple voltages and "rails" (you can think of it as a cable but its not always). If you multiply Vx@ you get the max draw in watts. So a 12V rail at 18@'s will draw 216W of power at full load. If a power supply cant meet the specific demand then the chance for a problem is greater. A PS with a significant portion of its total watts available or dedicated to the 12V is preferred. If we look at the OCZ supply above it has a potential total of 580W available to the 4 12V rails. Which gives you 48@'s+ useable. Realistically you might have a bit less based on what else you hang on the system. Where most people have a porblem is that most lesser PS's have to much power channeled to the 3.3 & 5V rails.
A typical 400W PS has 22-25@'s on the 3.3V rail and 30@'s+ on the 5V rail with roughly 18@'s on the 12V rail. So only 216W are even available to the 12V rail regardless of draw. Often on more powerful 2nd tier PS's the increase in watts is mostly in the 3/5V area with the 12V total amps staying at a max of 60-70% of total watts. A top end PS will have 95%+ of total watts "available" to the 12V rails. EVen btter is a uniot where 100% of the "available" @'s is dedicated...but this is where you get into a high end PS. For normal use a PS like the one I linked is more then you'll ever need. You simply need to know how to add up your system load.
What it prevents is a guy adding up and saying, great I only need 295W's of power and I have a 400W PS...but he has a 22@ draw on his 12V rail and a PS that will only feed him 216W's on the 12V rail.
You can run just about anything on a very good 430W PS...but there arent any for less then the 600W OCZ model above...
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Originally posted by republic
If you haven't ordered yet, the latest Intel Penryn based chips are now available.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037)
Why is that cheaper than the e6850? What am I missing? Does it not come with a fan?
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Originally posted by Getback
Why is that cheaper than the e6850? What am I missing? Does it not come with a fan?
This often happens when new chips come out. The E6850 should go down in price eventually. I remember when the E6420 came out, it had the larger cache than the E6400, but it cost less it to.
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Hi Toad,
I think you're going to be happy with the last option you posted. I understand the sentiment to just let them build it and test it, too.
I mentioned sound because Aces High is processor intensive. On-board sound uses your processor, so freeing up your processor as much as possible for the game is a good thing, just like using FSAutostart to stop services and running programs. I've found quite a few new folks eliminate some stutters they get with vox and in-game sound after moving to a sound card. You can always try the on-board chip and get that Audigy later if you notice any problem.
I've not had good luck with Turtle Beach cards, but some people must. Maybe they said the magic words or held their nose just right while installing it to make it compatible or even work at all with some motherboards.
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My TB santa cruz is doing good duty as a doorstop. Sadly for gaming purposes they are junk...
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Hmmmm........................ ............................
My TBSC sound card is working very well w/ games, including AHII.
Coupled w/ a set of Razer Barracuda headphones it simply rocks.
I got to ask this question:
Why only install 1 HDD?
One of the biggest reasons for stuttering in games is not the vid card or CPU, it's the OS trying to run your game AND handle page faults (moving data out of system mem to the HDD that's not being used to make available space for a program(s) request & vise-versa) at the same time. The seeker heads are constantly moving back & forth across your 1 HDD's sector tracks between your game & your page file. Windows WILL set up a page file even if you tell it not to or regardless of how much RAM you got. It's a holdover from the early days & MS intentionally leaves it in their OS-including Vista.
Install 2 SATA HDD's & load the OS & all programs, apps & games on 1 HDD then setup your pagefile in the outer tracks on the 2nd HDD (do this 1st) then use the rest of the 2nd HDD for storage. This is where the large capacity HDD's (500Gb & up) are best utilized. With this configuration (due to SATA headders being independent & SATA's huge bandwidth) the OS can now perform both duties at the same time. The size of the HDD's don't matter-it's the speed of the HDD's that matter (best done w/ 2 matched speed HDD's-like 2 7200rpm w/ 8 Mb cache HDD's).
My box is setup w/ 2 WD Raptors in this configuration & there is virtually no stuttering from vid card or CPU-only the occasional packet loss by a wayward router across connect hops causes some hesitation & OB LAN don't help it either as you have the same issues to contend with as OB sound vs PCI-sound card w/ OB DSP.
Sorry for posting this here but I hadda do it while I was thinking 'bout this.
http://www.techarp.com
Read the Virtual Memory Optimization Guide
At least look into it.
:)
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I've never run into stuttering problems with 1 HD systems if I had enough ram to use. Having said that I too have 3 hd's in my main gaming box and I use a separate HD for pagefile. But I haven't noticed any benefit from doing that, works just like with 1HD.
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I don't understand these comments regarding 1HDD vs multiple. After AH loads, ie while it is running, I never see the HD accessed even once. So neither the pagefile.sys nor AH is accessing the HD. How could having multiple HDs help me?
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OK, I'm going to order up that last build I spec'd out. I will get an ATX case with the OCZ psu. The nice folks at Mwave will build/test it with XP Home and wipe the supersecret BillGatesEyesOnly licensing code before ship. Supposedly, all I have to do is enter my own supersecret BillGatesEyesOnly licensing code when it gets here, load AH again and I'm off to the furballs.
Now, will the OB sound be ok without sucking down the new super-duper CPU or should I plunk in a sound card?
If I do use a card, which one? Remember, these old ears of mine have been subjected to a lot of rifle, pistol and shotgun shooting over the last 40 odd years and a boat load of large, unmuffled piston engines and jet engines howling at them as well. I don't need the newest/bestest card; I need one that works and won't cause compatibility issues or stutters.
So, while I'm not deaf I am probably a bit less discriminating when it comes to good sound. I have a 4 speakers + woofer Cambridge Soundworks speaker set up left from the old computer and I plan on using those. Sounded OK with the Turtle Beach card........
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Toad, words of wisdom from Lord Skuzzy:
By the way Max, there is a reason why you want to go with XP Professional. MS is being forced to support it through 2014. All other versions of XP will only besupported through 2009.
Current cost at NewEgg is $139
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Max, current cost of the XP Home sitting here on the desk from my last OS upgrade is $0.
:)
They may not support Home past 2009, but I bet it will still run AH better than Vista for a lot longer than that!
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For some reason I thought you were buying XP Home - doht
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ATX case is good idea, otherwise you'd need a micro-ATX motherboard. ;) Yuck.
Since your sound card works now, why not throw it into the bottom PSI slot when it arrives? Find the CD with the drivers.
You have a floppy or CD somewhere that came with your monitor. If it's a floppy, you need to copy it somewhere on the internet or onto something you can use since you don't have a floppy disk listed on this new machine. Track that down and use it to add a monitor "driver." It's not really a driver, but an .inf file that will display all the available resolutions and refresh rates so you aren't stuck with the limited MS defaults.
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Yeah, I thought about tossing the Turtle Beach Santa Cruz in, but I think it's had a bit of a stutter in AH all along. I think I'll try the OB sound, then the TB and if I'm not happy THEN a Soundblaster of some sort.
The NEC driver isn't hard to find. It's a Multisync E1100+.
I'm looking forward to this. I haven't been able to run AH at it's best resolution with the hi res art for a long, LONG time. :)
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Get some creative soundcard for gaming. Not for sound quality but for the directsound and hardware acceleration qualities.
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Originally posted by Fulmar
This often happens when new chips come out. The E6850 should go down in price eventually. I remember when the E6420 came out, it had the larger cache than the E6400, but it cost less it to.
Ah, Thanks Fulmar, been putting my list together for my next build. Going to go with the e8400 chip.
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So... Did it work?
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I hate to admit this but even before I posted about building the new one I was working 6 days a week and about 60 hrs. It got worse since; I have been working building an Irish pub downtown and for the last 6 weeks it's been 7 days/70 hours.
I haven't had time to order the bits.
Thankfully, I'm down to punchlist items now; I actually had an 8 hour day last week and I had the last weekend off.
As soon as my gyros level out and I figure out where I am, I am going to get this thing ordered.
i'd guess the last plan is still a good one; maybe the prices have even dropped a bit!
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Plenty of deals out there. Tiger direct; Intel 2.4 quad/XFX MB $349. I like the Antec 900 case. Lots of cooling/200mm, 3-120mm fans.($119) was on sale couple of weeks ago for $89. Got 4gb Ram at Newegg for $119.
I tried a turtle beach few years ago, pre AGP even. Was a nice sound card but not compatible with all games.