Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Rich46yo on January 24, 2008, 01:46:31 PM
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OK your cruising along in your favorite ride, say about 8,000', and you see a P-47N, "even if you dont know its an N and for purposes of this discussion", coming your way HO with about 3,000' on you. Or, again for purposes of this discussion, is level with you.
What moves do you make and how do you fight it?
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Depends what you're flying in.
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If the N has a ton of smash (energy), there isn't much you can do other then move out of the way to spoil his shot. Odds are, unless you are in a 110 - you don't come out the other side of a HO.
As for fighting it, depending on your E-state, the most likely thing he is going to do is full WEP on the merge and then reclaim altitude and zoom up over top. This is bad for you in every single way, because his inertia is tremendous at this point - and he can easily make 8,000 turn into 17,000 without much of a fuss - hang on the prop - flip over and HO you in the vertical all the while you are trying to catch him going up.
Keep in mind - his power remains at 2800 Horse Power all the way up to 30,000 feet. Odds are - whatever plane you are in drops off in a fairly linear fashion so by climbing into him you are getting into the N's realm even more. The only way you are going to beat it is by getting him low and slow by bleeding his E down below 250 knots and 5K. At this point, most of his options are the nose over - WEP full blast on the deck away from you. Even if you are in a LA-7 or 109, you won't be able to accelerate to catch the N unless you decide to chase him to 10 miles - and even that is a stretch.
Bottom line, treat every P-47 as an N - because they are monsters.
Wolf
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I assume you're talking about a coalt jug who you suspect is going to try and HO you from 3k out.
Since most players use a Jug as nothing more than a bomb truck, I sugest that you make a 20-30 degree turn to the left or right and start a shallow-medium WEP climb. If he's heavy (and has any brains), he will not try to climb with you and force the HO. If he's light, he will try to correct and continue on his HO path. The N model is FAST at altitude (not so much @ 8k) but still climbs like a brick. Use you standard HO evasion and then take the fight into the vert. One thing though, make sure you start your HO technique a little earlier than normal. With over 3000 rounds of .50 cal on board he will start firing early and shoot for a long duration.
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Thanks for the input guys. It seems every time I take this thing out I love it even more. I actually got myself in trouble today, got myself to low and was running low on gas. Luckily I kept just enough energy that I was able to yo-yo a mustang and hang just a little bit longer. I saw him break right, so I yanked left, did a shallow dive, and made it back to base.
As long as you keep yourself fast this airplane really handles well. And at 15k or above it seems like your never going under 300 mph.
Ive been practicing B&Z'ing with it. Its just a great all around aircraft.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Thanks for the input guys. It seems every time I take this thing out I love it even more. I actually got myself in trouble today, got myself to low and was running low on gas. Luckily I kept just enough energy that I was able to yo-yo a mustang and hang just a little bit longer. I saw him break right, so I yanked left, did a shallow dive, and made it back to base.
As long as you keep yourself fast this airplane really handles well. And at 15k or above it seems like your never going under 300 mph.
Ive been practicing B&Z'ing with it. Its just a great all around aircraft.
WHAT!?! :O You were almost low on gas in a P47N!? Jesus, you've must have been flying for 5 hours :lol !
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Thanks for the input guys. It seems every time I take this thing out I love it even more. I actually got myself in trouble today, got myself to low and was running low on gas. Luckily I kept just enough energy that I was able to yo-yo a mustang and hang just a little bit longer. I saw him break right, so I yanked left, did a shallow dive, and made it back to base.
As long as you keep yourself fast this airplane really handles well. And at 15k or above it seems like your never going under 300 mph.
Ive been practicing B&Z'ing with it. Its just a great all around aircraft.
Thats a funny thing about this plane. If you know the power settings - you can go forever and not have to tanker around 600 gallons and run full blast all the time.
My normal profile is 50% internal and a centerline DT. WEP climb up to 10K, wep comes off for the cool down, and continue climbing to around 12 or 13K at 2400 RPM and max manifold pressure. When at cruise, propeller comes back to 2000 RPM and it still gives 350 mph and change in cruise - but at a hellova savings in fuel. Gives you more playtime by the time you get on station - and usually you strip the tank by the time you get to station anyway - and the engine would've had ample time to cool off for the 5-8 minutes you are transiting the area.
Now you've got plenty of fuel when on station, plenty of WEP available since the cool down period - and you can bring the prop up to 2700 when engaging everything. Frequently in this configuration, I run 50 minutes to 1 hour in a typical hop. For longer missions, I take DT's on the wings. If i'm paranoid about getting my main tank holed - i'll take 75% and a DT - burn the DT, and then the Main tank leaving the wing and aux as backups.
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When flying the P-47N, don't turn fight with a D3A1. I just shot francis down when he did that with my D3A.
:p
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I've gotten to the point that I carry 75% internal almost all of the time now in fighter mode. I leave the drop tank because I'd rather have the induced drag of the higher internal fuel than the parasitic drag of the drop tank. Either way you're carrying approximately the same amount of gas. I burn the wing tanks dry first, as it seems to roll better. I almost never carry the full ammo load. You get the N down below about 1/4 tank and half your ammo remaining, and it really begins to shine. Need to learn how to manage your fuel so you can maximize your on station time when you get to this state.
One thing to remember about any of the P-47's. If you have 7,000 AGL of altitude, 500 mph is only a dive away. Doesn't matter how slow you are at 7,000 feet, you can accelerate up to 500 mph in the dive. Below that you are still easily capable of 400 mph. The caveat to this is that, once you go to the deck, you're in a defensive posture until you can get clear to regain altitude. Treat that last 7,000 feet of altitude as your emergency reserve unless you have wingman backup.
I find the most important thing for me is to make sure I don't enter a fight flat-footed. By that I mean, I always ensure that my climb out will have me at my chosen altitude with enough cruise to get the ship up to speed. If you have 300-350 TAS on the plane when you get into the fight, you'll have a much easier time maintaining some energy on the plane. If you start the fight slow, you're going to be on the defensive for quite some time. Lots of times, when I'm close to the fight, I'll actually carry a faster climb speed in case I get jumped before I have enough sky below me. Ideally, you have speed and altitude in the P-47. If you don't have speed, have altitude, and if you don't have altitude, have speed. This can hold true for a large number of aircraft in the game, but for any of the P-47's it is critical. In a white-knuckler, you can't afford to make mistakes in this plane, because it doesn't have much capability to compensate for them. The Novermber will scoot, as long as you have WEP, even on the deck, so use it only when you have to.
Lastly, Wolfala is the supreme November Jug stick, so you may want to lend more credibility to his techniques than mine. He lands 12 kills at a pop whereas I manage a fraction of that.
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Final technique: gun settings.
Inside guns to 475. Outside guns to 425. NO TRACERS EVER.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1154751200_p47nvsfw190a8modcopy.jpg)
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Originally posted by MjTalon
WHAT!?! :O You were almost low on gas in a P47N!? Jesus, you've must have been flying for 5 hours :lol !
Only took 1/2 tank up. Flew CAP for a CV for awhiles, busted up some Lancs, burent a lot of cartoon gas. It happens!
And I must say I love having a built in safety valve in the Jug-N. That is dive and haul Butt if the odds go against you all of a sudden. Other things I love is the sound of the R-2800 when you go above 15,000'. It sounds like my High School 1966 Chevy Chevelle, with the 396 and big Holley 4 barrel, cruising along the high way at 80 mph. Thats great modeling.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
OK your cruising along in your favorite ride, say about 8,000', and you see a P-47N, "even if you dont know its an N and for purposes of this discussion", coming your way HO with about 3,000' on you. Or, again for purposes of this discussion, is level with you.
If it is a D11 I'd be much more worried. Chances are that if it is a D11 the guy piloting it knows what he is doing.
The only thing the N can do better than the D's (at areana altitudes) is run.
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N climbs, dives, and is faster than the D11 right?
Anyway, just keep them away from the roll & zoom business. Mostly it. And you can HO them if you have the Hizooka, hehehe.
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Originally posted by bozon
If it is a D11 I'd be much more worried. Chances are that if it is a D11 the guy piloting it knows what he is doing.
The only thing the N can do better than the D's (at areana altitudes) is run.
I'm wandering a bit off topic...
Funny story.. I recently flew a friendly duel with a multiple winner of the KOTH. He had a P-47D-11, I was flying a Boston III. That's right, a Boston. Guess which one of these two won? It wasn't the Jug. In the MA, where the Jug will usually have a ton of smack, it can hammer the Boston by staying fast. Get over-ambitious and try to maneuver with the Boston at speeds under 250 mph and it'll eat any P-47 alive.
The Boston's big weakness is getting it whoa'd down enough to overcome stiffness of control surfaces. Using trim helps a lot, but if you are too slow getting it slowed, you'll find yourself with the bad guy behind you. Lose and elevator or flap and you're in trouble. In that respect, the A-20 is better as it has metal control surfaces and they don't get stiff until you are well above 350 mph. But, the A-20 is much heavier and the Boston is more maneuverable at low speeds and climbs considerably better as well. Those miserable four .303s are not very effective, but I have scored one-burst kills against fighters. Rare, but possible if you can get the guns on the cockpit.
Then, there's the surprise factor of finding a medium bomber that turns and climbs like a fighter. Some guys are so shocked, they panic and make big mistakes..
I love the P-47s, but I recognize where they excel and where they don't.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Angus
N climbs, dives, and is faster than the D11 right?
Only on WEP.
Without it it climbs same or worse than the D11 (and our D11 is without a paddle blade prop) , is slower and turns much worse.
Compared with the D40, it climbs the same on WEP and worse without (by about 400 fpm).
Against popular belief, from what I've tested, it does not zoom better than the D40.
All this is with similar fuel load. Add to that that the N has reduced lethality due to the guns being even farther out than in the D's (because of the new wing tanks extending the wings I guess).
The things that the N does better are higher speed on WEP (not to underestimate the importance of this), somewhat improved roll rate (but that was never a problem in the Jugs) and holds its E better in high speed turns (both good and bad, depending).
It is a much misunderstood bird. If you want a high altitude air superiority plane - this is your choice. For furballing, the D's give more bang for the buck. For JABO, D40 will carry the same ordnance, climb faster and get there faster - The N has a greater chance of coming (running) out alive.
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Originally posted by bozon
Only on WEP.
Without it it climbs same or worse than the D11 (and our D11 is without a paddle blade prop) , is slower and turns much worse.
Compared with the D40, it climbs the same on WEP and worse without (by about 400 fpm).
Against popular belief, from what I've tested, it does not zoom better than the D40.
All this is with similar fuel load. Add to that that the N has reduced lethality due to the guns being even farther out than in the D's (because of the new wing tanks extending the wings I guess).
The things that the N does better are higher speed on WEP (not to underestimate the importance of this), somewhat improved roll rate (but that was never a problem in the Jugs) and holds its E better in high speed turns (both good and bad, depending).
It is a much misunderstood bird. If you want a high altitude air superiority plane - this is your choice. For furballing, the D's give more bang for the buck. For JABO, D40 will carry the same ordnance, climb faster and get there faster - The N has a greater chance of coming (running) out alive.
Nice read sir, but have you flown a D11 with 25-50-75% internal fuel with the 6 gun light option? You wouldn't think the turn rate that jug could do was possible.
D 11 is a monster when in the hands of a experienced stick, that goes for all of the other jugs as well. Do not under estimate a P47...ever.
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Originally posted by MjTalon
Nice read sir, but have you flown a D11 with 25-50-75% internal fuel with the 6 gun light option?
The 6 gun option with the heavy ammo load weighs more than the 8 gun option with the light ammo load. The only time its an advantage is when you take both the 6 guns and the light ammo. (Unless that's what you meant by "6 gun light").
Personally, I like the D11, but I never use 6 guns. Firepower in this game is more important than maneuverability, IMO...
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Originally posted by MjTalon
Nice read sir, but have you flown a D11 with 25-50-75% internal fuel with the 6 gun light option? You wouldn't think the turn rate that jug could do was possible.
D 11 is a monster when in the hands of a experienced stick, that goes for all of the other jugs as well. Do not under estimate a P47...ever.
Jugs have been my main ride in the past 5 years (mixed with a little F6F and mossies). I am far from being top dog, but I know my bird. As Stoney said, the weight gained from leaving 2 guns at home is marginal compared with the weight of ammo and much more important, of fuel. The extra 33% firepower will do much more for you than the tiny performance improvement. If you knife fight the jug and get a shot opportunity - you better make it count. A second one will be much harder to get, 6 or 8 guns will not change that.
I don't even bother with the low ammo load. Why leave bullets at home in order to loose weight when you can get the same effect by shooting them into the enemy? I make a point of being VERY trigger happy till I get the counters down to 1000 - then aim. Perhaps this is why I am constantly at 5% or lower shooting, but I don't care about the ranking. You want to save weight? learn to manage your fuel. This is MUCH more effective.
With all due respect to the Jugs, they are far from being any kind of monster in typical low alt MA. I love them, but they are decent at best for this job. What makes them seem so much better in the hands of a good stick is the total lack of respect people give them. If you expect to mindlessly pull on the stick in a spit and blast the P47 you are in for a surprise. If on the other hand both pilots know what they are doing and respect each other's ride, they jug is in for a tough fight.
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Originally posted by bozon
I don't even bother with the low ammo load...You want to save weight? learn to manage your fuel. This is MUCH more effective.
1200 rounds of .50 cal is equal to 300 lbs. which is equal to 50 gallons of fuel. Not to mention that (to me anyway) it feels much more nimble in the roll axis without the weight in the wings. I almost always run out of fuel before ammo, even with the light 8-gun package. So, I never have the need to carry all those rounds. This probably falls into the personal preference category, I suppose.
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50 gallons of fuel is about 5:45 minutes at full throttle (and almost half the fuel load of a 109...). It is quite a lot.
Still, I can fire it away in a few seconds, so it is almost like a drop tank - only for ammo.
As you said, personal preference.