Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: d3wb33d0 on January 24, 2008, 06:56:07 PM
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when ever i get into dog fights i always get shot down, now this is no surprise, but i always shake like crazy when i get into tight turns, or start stalling, and if i continue in the turn, i spin out and get picked off, help?
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If you are shaking in tight turns ... then you are "stalling".
Bottom line is that you are pulling to hard and trying to turn to hard for what the plane can handle ... you are learning the dynamics of flight ... the hard way.
You didn't say what plane you are flying.
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Originally posted by d3wb33d0
when ever i get into dog fights i always get shot down, now this is no surprise, but i always shake like crazy when i get into tight turns, or start stalling, and if i continue in the turn, i spin out and get picked off, help?
you also pretty much don't want your speed to fall below 200. Your not flying jets here, it takes a few minutes to build up flying speed let alone fight speed. Spend an hour in the training area WITH a trainer. You'll be surprised at how uch they can teach you in that time.
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Originally posted by d3wb33d0
when ever i get into dog fights i always get shot down, now this is no surprise, but i always shake like crazy when i get into tight turns, or start stalling, and if i continue in the turn, i spin out and get picked off, help?
the "shaking in the tight turns is the warning of the oncomming stall........what's happening is that you're exceeding the critical angle of attack for that particular aircraft, causeing the air to seperate form the wing....the slower wing will stall first, and this is what causes your spin. you need to work the throttle and flaps, to help avoid, or at least delay the stall........
hope this helps a bit......btw......although i really suck, i do tend to ride the stall a LOT in furballs...........
sorry....i should've explained the angle of atack.......the wing is never perfectly level,,, i think that in level flight, your wing is at about 2 or 3 degrees to the oncomming wind. i think the "critical" angle of attack(that's where the air seprerates from the wing causing the stall)is in the ballpark of 17 degrees. so....you're roled over on your right wing, pulling in behind a bogie......he's slower than you, and is truning very tight....you pull harder to match his turn and pull some lead....but your plane starts shuddering.....that's because you're trying to lift(turn) the nose around into him too hard, making the wing's angle too high for the air to smoothly flow over and under it....and when this happens the wing cannot create lift.
i think i've explained it ok? and hope this helps ya a it.....do what fugative said...go to the training arena, and hook up with a trainer.......it'll do ya a world of good.
good luck!!!!:aok
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"If it ain't shakin' it ain't turnin'"
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
"If it ain't shakin' it ain't turnin'"
My regards,
Widewing
Learning to ride the shake is like learning to ride a bull. Do it right, and you will be rewarded, do it wrong, you will get pitched off...
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When the plane breaks into a studder don't you actually loose some of your turn radius? Even if your not in a complete falling to the ground stall?
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Originally posted by WWM
When the plane breaks into a studder don't you actually loose some of your turn radius? Even if your not in a complete falling to the ground stall?
only if you go too deeply into it, then yes...but i(at least in the zeke..still working in the spit n hurri, then on to harder planes) can ride the zeke in a "light" shudder, and at this point, i can outturn almost anything..even with my drop tank still hanging. problem is if i get anxious, and try to pull in harder for the shot....it will depart..that's when it snaps opposite the direction of flight.....and that's nasty....but fuuuuuuun.
:aok
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Originally posted by WWM
When the plane breaks into a studder don't you actually loose some of your turn radius? Even if your not in a complete falling to the ground stall?
If you fly it so deep into a buffet that the aircraft tries to snap inverted, you've gone too far. Flying too deep into the stall buffet invariably means you'll be dipping the inside wing. Correcting with top rudder or aileron (anything that reduces you angle of bank) will increase turn radius. Finding the absolute limit takes a lot of practice and proper technique. Many players aren't interested in expending the time and effort. They don't take the game seriously enough to bother. That's ok, whatever floats their boats...
Taking it to the ragged edge, and being able to fly it there for as long as you want, that's a skill 99.9% of the player base doesn't have. They may think they are at the plane's limit, but in reality, the limit they find is their limit. The aircraft's limit is often substantially higher than that of the pilot.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks. I always released pressure at the first sign of studder because I thought it was extending my turn radius.
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Originally posted by Widewing
If you fly it so deep into a buffet that the aircraft tries to snap inverted, you've gone too far. Flying too deep into the stall buffet invariably means you'll be dipping the inside wing. Correcting with top rudder or aileron (anything that reduces you angle of bank) will increase turn radius. Finding the absolute limit takes a lot of practice and proper technique. Many players aren't interested in expending the time and effort. They don't take the game seriously enough to bother. That's ok, whatever floats their boats...
Taking it to the ragged edge, and being able to fly it there for as long as you want, that's a skill 99.9% of the player base doesn't have. They may think they are at the plane's limit, but in reality, the limit they find is their limit. The aircraft's limit is often substantially higher than that of the pilot.
My regards,
Widewing
so do you mean to correct by ruddering the nose up or down?
if im in a left turn do i raise the nose with rudder or lower it?
if you correct with alerion you roll back to the right a few degrees, right?
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Originally posted by goober69
so do you mean to correct by ruddering the nose up or down?
if im in a left turn do i raise the nose with rudder or lower it?
if you correct with alerion you roll back to the right a few degrees, right?
actually, release just the slightest bit of presure on the stick........or if you're slow enough, get a notch of flaps out.........you need to decrease the AOA of the wing to the oncomming air
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Originally posted by goober69
so do you mean to correct by ruddering the nose up or down?
if im in a left turn do i raise the nose with rudder or lower it?
if you correct with alerion you roll back to the right a few degrees, right?
I think you mis-read that Goober- "top" rudder or aileron actually INCREASES your turn radius. This effectively makes you turn a larger circle...
The way I look at it, if I give top rudder in a turn I'm part-way to a slip, or in a partial slip. If I give more rudder it will turn into what I think of as a full slip. I generally slip in a fairly straight path. Not only is this hurting my turn radius, it's exposing the side of my plane to the slip-stream, creating lots of extra drag- at a time when I'm already at the edge of a stall.
So, slowing down and straightening out would seem to hurt my tight turn...
It's also the beginning of a recipe to snap into a spin.
That said- I do use top-side rudder occasionally to keep my inner wing from stalling/dropping, with good results. It does work for that as a temporary quick-fix. It keeps me from stalling, but hurts my overall turn radius. Slowing my turn to avoid the stall is an OK trade-off, but if this is where I am in a fight it's a hint I may need to re-think things...
MtnMan
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Originally posted by goober69
so do you mean to correct by ruddering the nose up or down?
if im in a left turn do i raise the nose with rudder or lower it?
if you correct with alerion you roll back to the right a few degrees, right?
Rudder does not really raise the nose. It induced a yawing roll. So, if you are in a left hand turn, cranking it in real tight and the inside wing stalls, the wing then drops. You can correct with a nudge of right rudder and/or apply some right aileron. You may also have to relax a bit of back pressure on the elevators too.
When you do any of the above, you roll out of the left-hand bank and increase the turn radius. Adding rudder adds drag. Adding drag moves the whole aircraft closer to a genuine stall.
Some guys use top rudder the whole time they are turning, trying to offset or prevent the inside wing from stalling. What this does is reduce bank angle and add drag. Thus, both turn rate and radius suffer.
The secret of getting the smallest turning circle out of a fighter is being able to sense or feel when you have flown as deep into a stall as possible, just short of stalling the inside wing. Then, have the skill to hold it there for as long as needed. A highly skilled pilot can milk the stall, letting air flow across the inside wing burble, but not quite stall. Then relax back pressure a hair, smooth out the airflow and repeat it over and over. If you can do that with precision, no one will ever out-turn you in the same aircraft. They may match you (unlikely), but not out-turn you.
To get to that level, you must be completely familiar with that aircraft. Jumping into a plane you have little practice in means that you will not immediately recognize the limits and you will find that you will be dipping wings and not getting the tightest turn radius. It may take a few circles to get zeroed in on the limits... You could be dead by then too.
All of the above apply mostly to flat turning contests on the deck, called a lufbery circle after a WWI fighter pilot who supposedly invented the tactic. Lufbery circles were often used by a squadron of fighters to deny the enemy the ability to get on one plane's tail. To do so means the next friendly fighter is on enemy's tail. It is usually a totally defensive maneuver. However, if the other guy bites and pulls into the circle, a pilot skilled at max rate, minimum radius turning will gain the advantage, either coming around for the eventual shot, or forcing the other guy to break out and try to reposition. If he waits too long to do the latter, he's likely to die.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Some guys use top rudder the whole time they are turning ...
WW ... what exactly is "top rudder" ? ... is there "bottom rudder" too ?
'splain Lucy.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
If you are shaking in tight turns ... then you are "stalling".
Bottom line is that you are pulling to hard and trying to turn to hard for what the plane can handle ... you are learning the dynamics of flight ... the hard way.
You didn't say what plane you are flying.
I learned the hard way.
It helps out in the long run.:D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
WW ... what exactly is "top rudder" ? ... is there "bottom rudder" too ?
'splain Lucy.
you're in a hard left turn.....top rudder is the side facing up..in this case, it'd be right rudder......and bottom would be left......in right turn, they'd be reversed
:aok
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Originally posted by SlapShot
If you are shaking in tight turns ... then you are "stalling".
Bottom line is that you are pulling to hard and trying to turn to hard for what the plane can handle ... you are learning the dynamics of flight ... the hard way.
You didn't say what plane you are flying.
when the plane's shuddering, it's not stalled....yet....that shuddering is the warning of the oncomeing stall..........
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Originally posted by SlapShot
WW ... what exactly is "top rudder" ? ... is there "bottom rudder" too ?
'splain Lucy.
As CAP1 stated, top rudder is rudder towards the outer, or "top" wing. IE: Right rudder in a left turn.
SAXMAN and I were working in the TA one evening some time ago, both flying F4U-1A fighters. I was able to fly much tighter circles. I asked how he was controlling his aircraft. It turned out he was using a lot of top rudder. After a simple change (stay off the rudder altogether), he tightened up his circle to very near mine. The entire exercise took less than 5 minutes.
As a general practice, if a pilot finds himself using top rudder in a sustained turn, he is limiting the plane's turning ability. If he has to use frequent top rudder to counter wing dip, he is flying too deep into the stall or not being smooth enough with control input. Sometimes, less is more. The only trick is finding balance.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
As CAP1 stated, top rudder is rudder towards the outer, or "top" wing. IE: Right rudder in a left turn.
SAXMAN and I were working in the TA one evening some time ago, both flying F4U-1A fighters. I was able to fly much tighter circles. I asked how he was controlling his aircraft. It turned out he was using a lot of top rudder. After a simple change (stay off the rudder altogether), he tightened up his circle to very near mine. The entire exercise took less than 5 minutes.
As a general practice, if a pilot finds himself using top rudder in a sustained turn, he is limiting the plane's turning ability. If he has to use frequent top rudder to counter wing dip, he is flying too deep into the stall or not being smooth enough with control input. Sometimes, less is more. The only trick is finding balance.
My regards,
Widewing
So is there any time where you would want to use rudder in a turn (excluding trying to roll)?
Thanks,
donkey
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Yes. A coordinated turn is the most efficient turn you can do. By coordinated, I mean that your fuselage is properly aligned with the turn...i.e., no sideslip. There are several chapters than can be written about adverse yaw, proverse roll, torque and p-factor but what you need to know is that the airplane will turn a differently to the left than to the right.
When you start a turn use some complimentary rudder to yaw the plane in the direction of the desired turn. Dihedral effect (the tendancy of an airplane to roll due to yaw) will increase your roll rate into the start of the turn and enable much faster rolls.
Once you're in a turn look at the ball (or yaw needle) on your instrument panel. That will tell you if your airplane has any sideslip as the ball will tend to fall toward the low side. Use a bit of rudder to the same side as the ball (think of it as "step on the ball") so the ball stays between the two lines. That is a coordinated turn. Also, this varies with speed. A sustained turn at high speed generally requires no rudder, it's when you get slow that torque/p-factor begin to overcome the airplanes natural stability and you need the rudder to correct.
Now, here's where it gets more complicated. With a few exceptions single engine prop airplanes will require you to maintain some left rudder in a left turn but, due to the engine rotation, require no rudder in a right turn. (The exceptions are airplanes like the Typhoon with props that rotate opposite of most fighters in which case you'll need rudder in a right turn and maybe none to the left). Twins with counter-rotating props should need no rudder in a sustained turn.
You should test both left and right turns out for yourself by doing level turns in your favorite rides while looking at the ball or yaw needle.
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Donkey, let's make sure we delineate normal flight from combat where a pilot cannot afford to keep his head in the cockpit.
In a combat situation, where you will be rapidly working stick and rudder, you will not be watching the ball. Practiced pilots will work controls to produce the best result, without actively thinking about it. It's now second nature and done very much by feel and perception.
In keeping with Mace's comments, coordinating controls is something every pilot should practice until it does become second nature. Why? Because, in a combat situation, the pilot who coordinates his controls well will retain more E and be less prone to sudden and unexpected departure from controlled flight.
If you watch a film of a pilot who always seems to have more E than his opponent, pay attention to the turn and bank indicator. You will see that even when working the controls rapidly, the inputs are coordinated and smooth.
When you see a film where a pilot is jerking his aircraft around violently, you will also see a lack of coordination and a subsequent loss of energy and more difficulty with departure from controlled flight. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
My regards,
Widewing
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wow i learn so much just reading this forum u guys are the best ess ess :D
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Originally posted by Widewing
As CAP1 stated, top rudder is rudder towards the outer, or "top" wing. IE: Right rudder in a left turn.
SAXMAN and I were working in the TA one evening some time ago, both flying F4U-1A fighters. I was able to fly much tighter circles. I asked how he was controlling his aircraft. It turned out he was using a lot of top rudder. After a simple change (stay off the rudder altogether), he tightened up his circle to very near mine. The entire exercise took less than 5 minutes.
As a general practice, if a pilot finds himself using top rudder in a sustained turn, he is limiting the plane's turning ability. If he has to use frequent top rudder to counter wing dip, he is flying too deep into the stall or not being smooth enough with control input. Sometimes, less is more. The only trick is finding balance.
My regards,
Widewing
Thanks bud !!!
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Thanks guys this thread has been very informative. I read through all this info yesterday but didnt get to try any of it out til this morning. I have been dying pretty quickly in 1 on 1 fights but was able to make a good showing in my F4U1A against a Yak and at times another F4U this morning.
I probably would have been able to do a better job if I had been able to use flaps but I was fighting while I was feeding the baby his morning bottle. I lasted approx ten min and they never were able to get a gun solution on me. I eventually got way to low and slow causing me to spin out and crash. It was alot more fun to last awhile than to just get killed right away.
Anyway thanks for taking the time to post the info here, it really is a big help for us rookies.
VipPer65
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Originally posted by CAP1
the "shaking in the tight turns is the warning of the oncomming stall........what's happening is that you're exceeding the critical angle of attack for that particular aircraft, causeing the air to seperate form the wing....the slower wing will stall first, and this is what causes your spin. you need to work the throttle and flaps, to help avoid, or at least delay the stall........
hope this helps a bit......btw......although i really suck, i do tend to ride the stall a LOT in furballs...........
sorry....i should've explained the angle of atack.......the wing is never perfectly level,,, i think that in level flight, your wing is at about 2 or 3 degrees to the oncomming wind. i think the "critical" angle of attack(that's where the air seprerates from the wing causing the stall)is in the ballpark of 17 degrees. so....you're roled over on your right wing, pulling in behind a bogie......he's slower than you, and is truning very tight....you pull harder to match his turn and pull some lead....but your plane starts shuddering.....that's because you're trying to lift(turn) the nose around into him too hard, making the wing's angle too high for the air to smoothly flow over and under it....and when this happens the wing cannot create lift.
i think i've explained it ok? and hope this helps ya a it.....do what fugative said...go to the training arena, and hook up with a trainer.......it'll do ya a world of good.
good luck!!!!:aok
Cap, you have a pretty good understanding of how angle of attack works. However, the zero lift angle of attack and the critical angle of attack will vary per airfoil. The zero lift angle of attack depends a lot on the camber of the wing. Camber is how curved the wing looks from a side cross section. Most airfoils will be cambered so the back points slightly down. If you look at the spoiler on a race car it is a wing. Instead of generating lift it generates down force. This is because the camber of the spoiler is opposite of airfoils on aircraft. When you deploy your flaps you are essentially changing the camber of your wing thus your zero lift angle of attack changes.
Separation is also going to be effected by the Reynolds number associated with the given airfoil. However, unless you want to read a book, I'll spare the details on that.
Furthermore, separation can happen at any speed. It will occur at transonic speeds (speeds ranging from Mach 0.7 to Mach 1). At this point air is no longer consider to be incompressible. As many of you know, the air passing over the wing is moving faster than the air under the wing. A sonic shock will form on the top of the wings before the air craft reaches supersonic speeds. This shock will general large amounts of wave drag and cause separation towards the back of the airfoil. This is why you lose control of your aircraft at very high speeds. A shock forms and your control surfaces at the back of the wing no longer have air to push on because of the shock. Changing the design of the wings will change how and when this shock forms. Sweeping the wings back will cause it to generate less wave drag. Using a super critical airfoil design will move the shock further back on the wing letting you maintain control at higher speeds. The P-51 Mustang is an example of one of the first aircraft to use super critical airfoils.
Sorry if you did not all want that much detail but I love details and I suspect a few of you do too.
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Originally posted by Jerlle
Cap, you have a pretty good understanding of how angle of attack works. However, the zero lift angle of attack and the critical angle of attack will vary per airfoil. The zero lift angle of attack depends a lot on the camber of the wing. Camber is how curved the wing looks from a side cross section. Most airfoils will be cambered so the back points slightly down. If you look at the spoiler on a race car it is a wing. Instead of generating lift it generates down force. This is because the camber of the spoiler is opposite of airfoils on aircraft. When you deploy your flaps you are essentially changing the camber of your wing thus your zero lift angle of attack changes.
Jerrle, i do understand that the airfoil design will change/affect the cruitical AOA....i only chose the numbers i did as they're for a cesssna 172......and i was using them as an example, although i may not have made that clear in my post(i sometimes don't get everything outta my head when i'm tryin to explain something) those differences are ultra clear in the arenas, where a P38 trying to turn inside a Zeke at low speed will never make it :-)
Separation is also going to be effected by the Reynolds number associated with the given airfoil. However, unless you want to read a book, I'll spare the details on that.
Furthermore, separation can happen at any speed.
[i also may not have made this clear either......but i thought i did........if we maintained high speed and simply "yanked" the stick into our gut......well.....the airplane will pretty much stop flying..and probably not in a very "user friendly" fashion..this i believe is termed a "departure stall"
It will occur at transonic speeds (speeds ranging from Mach 0.7 to Mach 1). At this point air is no longer consider to be incompressible. As many of you know, the air passing over the wing is moving faster than the air under the wing. A sonic shock will form on the top of the wings before the air craft reaches supersonic speeds. This shock will general large amounts of wave drag and cause separation towards the back of the airfoil. This is why you lose control of your aircraft at very high speeds. A shock forms and your control surfaces at the back of the wing no longer have air to push on because of the shock. Changing the design of the wings will change how and when this shock forms. Sweeping the wings back will cause it to generate less wave drag. Using a super critical airfoil design will move the shock further back on the wing letting you maintain control at higher speeds. The P-51 Mustang is an example of one of the first aircraft to use super critical airfoils.
Sorry if you did not all want that much detail but I love details and I suspect a few of you do too.
sorry for what dude? we ALL learn a lot this way!!!!
<>
john
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I'll just point out here, since no one else has yet, that the entire wing doesn't stall out at once. It usually stalls progressively from the wing-root out, so there is warning of a full stall.