Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TwinBoom on January 26, 2008, 10:20:32 AM
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Origins: The al Taqqadum air field west of Baghdad in Iraq, a sandy wasteland surrounded by high dunes off the main Baghdad-to-Jordan highway, was the focus of intense search-and-destroy activity after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003; its vast desert spaces were thought to be a likely location for missile launchers or aircraft from which chemical or biological strikes against U.S. troops might be launched.
What military search teams eventually found at al Taqqadum, in July 2003, were remnants of the Iraqi Air Force as pictured above: a reported 30 to 40 planes, including several MiG-25 and Su-25 ground attack jets, buried more than 10 feet beneath tons of soil and covered with camouflage netting. According to the Pentagon, at least one of the MiG-25s was found because searchers spotted its twin tail fins protruding from the sand. Some of the planes had been wrapped in plastic sheeting to protect their electronics and machinery from the sand (and some had had their wings removed), but others were interred with little or no protection from the sand or the elements. The recovery teams had to use large earth-moving equipment to uncover the aircraft.
The discovery at al Taqqadum was not announced to the public until a month later, in a press briefing delivered by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld:
WASHINGTON, Aug. 6, 2003 — American forces have found Russian fighter jets buried in the Iraqi desert, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in an Aug. 5 press briefing.
"We'd heard a great many things had been buried, but we had not known where they were, and we'd been operating in that immediate vicinity for weeks and weeks and weeks . . . 12, 13 weeks, and didn't know they were (there)," Rumsfeld said.
The secretary said he wasn't sure how many such aircraft had been found, but noted, "It wasn't one or two."
He said it's a "classic example" of the challenges the Iraqi Survey Group is facing in finding weapons of mass destruction in the country.
"Something as big as an airplane that's within . . . a stone's throw of where you're functioning, and you don't know it's there because you don't run around digging into everything on a discovery process," Rumsfeld explained. "So until you find somebody who tells you where to look, or until nature clears some sand away and exposes something over time, we're simply not going to know.
"But, as we all know," he added, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
A U.S. military search team examines a Cold War-era MiG-25R Foxbat B, the fastest combat aircraft today, that lay buried beneath the sands in Iraq. Several MiG-25s and Su-25 ground attack jets have been found buried at al-Taqqadum air field west of Baghdad
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_08_001.jpg)
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_09_001.jpg)
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_11_001.jpg)
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_13_001.jpg)
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Clean'em up, bring'em home, and put them on the airshow circuit here in the U.S.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Clean'em up, bring'em home, and put them on the airshow circuit here in the U.S.
You could buy functioning -25s for less than it would cost to rebuild one of those.
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No new news.
It's still the fault of the western fault that children of Iraq were starving, since nice uncle Saddam was busy shopping from the Russians....:mad:
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mental images of some skinny insurgent sitting behind the controls wondering why the hell he is being told to fly this rust bucket instead of something cool like strap bombs to himself.
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Thats a good one Batty.
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I wonder, - did those come with a receipt and a guarantee?
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Originally posted by kozhedub
You could buy functioning -25s for less than it would cost to rebuild one of those.
Those are fully functioning Mig-25s, they just have some sand on them. Some don't even have sand in them.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Those are fully functioning Mig-25s, they just have some sand on them. Some don't even have sand in them.
It missing the wings.
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Originally posted by Angus
No new news.
It's still the fault of the western fault that children of Iraq were starving, since nice uncle Saddam was busy shopping from the Russians....:mad:
About 151,000 Iraqis died from violence in the first three years after the United States invaded, concludes the best effort yet to count deaths — one that still may not settle the fierce debate over the war's true toll on civilians and others.
source http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22578010/ (http://)
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Yes a lot of Iraqis have died in Iraq since the US take over...
How many have been killed my Allied soliders though??
My question, why are there always protests about Iraqi deaths on the news but why are they hardly ever mentioned in the US for murders/rapes at home??
"Overall, the number of violent crimes, which also include aggravated assaults and robberies, fell by 1.2 percent last year. Property crimes _ burglaries, larceny/theft and car theft _ dropped 1.1 percent in 2004, compared to 2003.
There were 16,137 murders in the United States in 2004, the last full year for which statistics are available. That was about 350 fewer than in 2003, according to the FBI data. The decrease is the first since 1999, although smaller than what the FBI reported in June. Chicago was largely responsible for the drop, recording 150 fewer murders in 2004 than in 2003.
The number of rapes, however, has increased in three of the past four years, according to the FBI data. In all, rapes increased by .8 percent to 94,635 rapes, or about 750 more than in 2003."
source: Washington Post (http://www.zerr.org/family/index.php?topic=255.msg382;topicseen)
Just my 2 cents....
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Originally posted by PanosGR
About 151,000 Iraqis died from violence in the first three years after the United States invaded, concludes the best effort yet to count deaths — one that still may not settle the fierce debate over the war's true toll on civilians and others.
source http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22578010/ (http://)
IN....
I wondered how long it would take for somebody to hijack the thread.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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Hey i seen those jets at Taqqadum, and I would like to credit the fact that crimes have come down in Iraq to the fact that every household is authorized 1 AK-47 rifle to defend themselfs with.
Look at Astralia where they got rid of all personal owned firearms. Their crime rates are up dramatically and the politicians cant explain why since "there are no more guns there"
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Originally posted by doc1kelley
IN....
I wondered how long it would take for somebody to hijack the thread.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
What else would you expect from someone whose nationality is associated with fudge packing? :)
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Originally posted by colmbo
It missing the wings.
Did you even read the article? Some had the wings removed and then buried, others were fully preserved in plastic and then buried.
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Originally posted by colmbo
It missing the wings.
Yeah, so? My AH plane often is missing key parts like wings. :)
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Originally posted by PanosGR
About 151,000 Iraqis died from violence in the first three years after the United States invaded, concludes the best effort yet to count deaths — one that still may not settle the fierce debate over the war's true toll on civilians and others.
source http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22578010/ (http://)
And who killed them? And who were the victims?
Mostly Iraqis blowing up civilians in a suicide style, or thugs doing mass executions on captives.
As for the time these aircraft were purcahsed, Iraq was under a business pressure, with the sick dying and starving in quite impressive numbers.
Sort of gets forgotten that under Saddam it wasn't all nice and cute. Although I feel the situation to be bad, I think that the U.S. is sometimes being spanked very wrongly about the whole deal.
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Originally posted by PanosGR
About 151,000 Iraqis died from violence in the first three years after the United States invaded, concludes the best effort yet to count deaths — one that still may not settle the fierce debate over the war's true toll on civilians and others.
source http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22578010/ (http://)
Just curious, how many Iraqis died at the hands of Sadam's soldiers and secret police before the US invaded? How many Iraqis and Iranians died in the war Sadam started with Iran? How many Iraqis and Kuwaitis died in the first Gulf war? Possibly, MSNBC should broadcast those numbers. In the interest of journalism, of course.
And of course, we know that MSNBC allways thoroughly researches all "facts" before airing. Kinda like the exploding GMC gas tanks. I don't put much stock in MSNBC.
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Originally posted by TwinBoom
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_08_001.jpg)
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_09_001.jpg)
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_11_001.jpg)
(http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/iraf_mig-25rb_unearthing_13_001.jpg)
Hmmm just looks like a normal Dan/Corkyjr landing to me.
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Originally posted by colmbo
It missing the wings.
You know about "Paul Hind's Super Secret Commando Raid" to steal the wings? You'd better draw the shades and keep an eye out for Mr. Black and his Scorpion Posse.
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É Simply stated a news bulletin. I didn’t want to make any comment on that. But since you brought up I have to say something.
I did not say of course that for all those thousands of dead it is US Army’s fault. That would be absurd. Of course, Saddam killed more Iraqis during his presidency. But that’s no excuse for more killings. Saddam was a dictator. You see the problem has nothing always to do with the one who pulls the trigger, but quite often has to do with the one who “helps” to create the conditions, the surrounding conditions, that would allow him to pull the trigger. Operation Iraqi Freedom was supposed to provide democracy and prosperity for Iraq and not the “freedom” to kill and be killed by each other.
But everyone is free to drawn his own conclusions.
Srry about my bad English I’ll try to improve them
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"the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
*snickers*
What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
I didn't know modern principles of justice in accusing someone was to be done under the fashion of, "presumed guilty and treated that way until we find some evidence (...even if it means we have to beat the crap out of you to gain some)".
But then again, you guys have a supreme court justice who thinks it's ok to waterboard suspects... lovely shining example of democracy and national security there.
*applauds*
And who killed them? And who were the victims?
Mostly Iraqis blowing up civilians in a suicide style, or thugs doing mass executions on captives.
So if I rip open the lid off a can, and it starts to gush out, it's the can's fault that things are all messy and wet and not mine? How very convenient way of looking at things - that way, we can go destabilize everything that can be destabilized in the world.. without ever taking the blame.
As for the time these aircraft were purcahsed, Iraq was under a business pressure, with the sick dying and starving in quite impressive numbers.
Sort of gets forgotten that under Saddam it wasn't all nice and cute. Although I feel the situation to be bad, I think that the U.S. is sometimes being spanked very wrongly about the whole deal.
Right. Saddam was a tyrant, a dictator, and a murderer. He oppressed the shia sectors of his country, and plain massacred Kurds. Unfortunately, he was also the only center of power in that region which barely held a fragile crack together.
There was a reason why intervention was traditionally considered a very careful thing to ponder about, and why you can't go just toppling every dictator from his seat of power at whim.
In the end, the war's still not over, US soldiers are still dying, the government is asking for more war fundings and surge in troops, the violence has increased, the manner of violence has degenrated into a state of chaotic terror, the region's all but destabilized totally, the Kurds are still treated unfairly under Allied influence and the Turks want them wiped out, and now Congress wants to pull the troops out. Democratic principles are threatened under security laws, the public in paranoia, continued accusations of torture and illegal arrest haunts the justice system, and Guantanamo and Blackwater is now an ugly smear.
..
good show chaps, good show.
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Originally posted by PanosGR
snip
Of course, Saddam killed more Iraqis during his presidency. But that’s no excuse for more killings.
snip
But everyone is free to drawn his own conclusions.
I'm curious as to your conclusions. Here's a couple of questions:
Do you believe the Iraqi people would have been better off if the USA had not deposed the man who, as you point out here, was killing them in even greater numbers than they are killing themselves now?
Do you believe the Iraqi people now, after the USA's actions, possess less or more control of their own destiny?
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OK, Kweassa, you too :)
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Originally posted by PanosGR
É Simply stated a news bulletin. I didn’t want to make any comment on that. But since you brought up I have to say something.
I did not say of course that for all those thousands of dead it is US Army’s fault. That would be absurd. Of course, Saddam killed more Iraqis during his presidency. But that’s no excuse for more killings. Saddam was a dictator. You see the problem has nothing always to do with the one who pulls the trigger, but quite often has to do with the one who “helps” to create the conditions, the surrounding conditions, that would allow him to pull the trigger. Operation Iraqi Freedom was supposed to provide democracy and prosperity for Iraq and not the “freedom” to kill and be killed by each other.
But everyone is free to drawn his own conclusions.
Srry about my bad English I’ll try to improve them
Panos,
Remember that a huge proportion of those civilian deaths have occurred when Iraqis killed EACH OTHER over sectarian differences. Saddam was so effective in repressing those sectarian homicidal impulses that in effect he toook over the role of killing Iraqis so the sects didnt have to...
That brings up a difficult question: if repressive, torture ridden dictatorship keeps the peace and makes sure "the trains run on time" (which was said of Mussolini), does it justify continuing to support it? In the past, US governments have said it does, much to our shame. In this case Bush said it doesn't, despite the european community pretty much saying it was better to allow him to continue murdering. The moral situation is not nearly so clear cut as you imply.
Now, I can't help but wonder what role "finishing the job that Dad started" played in this whole thing, and I hope the Bush administration was honestly deceiving themselves and not manipulating the truth about what was known. But regardless of their motives, it seems to me that forcibly removing a man who ruthlessly used poison gas on his own people was a good thing. It would have been better done 10 years earlier by world consensus -- but that didnt happen.
And by the way -- Skuzzy, I'm really unclear why this thread wasn't moved to the O club long ago.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/dichotomy/skuzzysignal.gif)
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Did you even read the article? Some had the wings removed and then buried, others were fully preserved in plastic and then buried.
Those things are class A pieces of caca del toro. The only reason they are there is that they were garbage and not able to fly during GW 1.
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I think we all missed the true reason those were there, after intensive research I found out that ........those are actually Voss's super secret research models for his upcoming flight sim DUH! :aok
I miss Voss er Metatron... I mean Predy I mean......................:noid
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Originally posted by 10thmd
...Look at Astralia where they got rid of all personal owned firearms. Their crime rates are up dramatically and the politicians cant explain why since "there are no more guns there"
I'll assume you're referrring to "Australia", in which case nothing you have written is true.