Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: LTARstud on January 28, 2008, 02:06:45 PM
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I have a question about Co Altitude encounters.
I have been at 10k in a 190 on my way to a base traveling at full power 320 miles per hour and coming into contact with another 190 at Co Alt going the other way. I do not make any turns but stay on a level route on autopiolt. This has happened more than once. He is off my left or right wing and makes a wide turn to come onto my six and catches up with my airplane. I do not understand how a plane going the other way and making a 90 degree turn does not bleed of airspeed. Not many airplanes can keep up with a 190 let alone catch them in this way. Any suggestions ?
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Different 190's?
A 190D9 will catch any of the other 190 models.
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Sorry I fly the 190-d9 to pork bases. I should of put that in my thread
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Sounds like no more than a well exectuted lead turn.
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Originally posted by LTARstud
I have a question about Co Altitude encounters.
I have been at 10k in a 190 on my way to a base traveling at full power 320 miles per hour
True or indicated airspeed? I ask that because a 109D can do over 400mph under WEP.
Also keep in mind that small altitude differences are somewhat hard to perceive in AH2. He may just have been 2k above you - but with careful energy management, lead turning and WEP its more than sufficient to catch up. Especially if you got drop tanks or bombs aboard.
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Indicated speed, no bomb or drop tank and no wep. I have flow this airplane allot and it is not a good turner as it bleeds off airspeed. Maybe my perception of co alt. is wrong. But the other aircraft sure seem to be at the same altitude.
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Record it, to double check the alt diff...
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First of all, if he's going the other way, a 90 degree turn will not put him on your six. He'd have to turn 180 degrees.
You say you're not using WEP? Maybe (probably) he is. Also, maybe he just came out of a dive and has extra speed.
A wide, low-G turn won't bleed much speed, even in a 190, and he almost has to be making it a lead-turn.
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Hi LTARstud
Originally posted by LTARstud
I do not make any turns but stay on a level route on autopiolt. This has happened more than once. He is off my left or right wing and makes a wide turn to come onto my six and catches up with my airplane.
That's a good description of a Lead Turn and it sounds as though that's what happened.
A lead turn is the most efficient BFM maneuver. A lead turn is nothing more than an attempt to decrease your angle-off prior to passing your opponent's 3/9 line. It can be done in any plane (horizontal, vertical or combination of both). The classic lead turn is accomplished by the pilot off setting his flight path from that of his adversary. He then observes where his opponent is going and predicts where he will be at some point in the future. He then initiates a turn to arrive at a point in space with reduced aspect and angle-off. See the diagram below.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/LeadTurn.jpg)
I do not understand how a plane going the other way and making a 90 degree turn does not bleed of airspeed. Not many airplanes can keep up with a 190 let alone catch them in this way. Any suggestions ?
If he executed the lead turn correctly he may have come out of the turn on your six and at close range. He may have been going slower due to lost speed in the turn, but he would still have been able to remain within guns range long enough to make the kill.
Hope that helps
Badboy
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I actually caught a P38 while I was in a Zero doing this after extended away from me several times I managed to get the timing right to be able to lead turn into him to meet him at a point in turn to get a few bursts off before he got out of range. Just takes some planning and good timing. I am not even a very accomplished pilot and was even less of one then since this was several months ago.I just a couple of times to get it right since he would leave icon range before returning. I guess he was trying to sneak in on me.
Back to your story though, for an experienced sim pilot this would probably not be very difficult to judge the right distance and speed to be close in on your six for at least a few seconds and be able to squeeze off a few bursts.
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you also say that you left it on level autopilot.
He can dive towards you / go faster then pull up again to take a shot.
Some rational explanations but I guess if all else fails he must have been hacking!
:D
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We should also clarify that even if you have no drop tank now, but had one earlier in your flight, the rack slows you down by up to 5mph.
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two plane types, same load out, same alt.....both going 390 TAS, 20,000 alt at perfect merge....one continues on without manking any energy bleeding turn while the other does a 180 degree reversal and catches up and shoots down the other. Things that make you go WTF!
:D
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two plane types, same load out both going 390 TAS, 20,000 alt at perfect merge....one continues on without manking any energy bleeding turn while the other does a 180 degree hard breaking reversal and catches up and shoots down the other. Things that make you go WTF!
:D
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Originally posted by Yeager
two plane types, same load out both going 390 TAS, 20,000 alt at perfect merge....one continues on without manking any energy bleeding turn while the other does a 180 degree hard breaking reversal and catches up and shoots down the other. Things that make you go WTF!
:D
This is assuming that the turning plane waited until passing to start turn. What these other posters stated was that if you initiated your turn prior to passing each other then you could lead turn and meet them at a point in your turn. That is how I caught a P38 with a Zero.
respectfully submitted
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Thanks for all the input guys !! From my perspective in the game the other aircraft passes me then makes the turn to come on my six. Sometimes they are 1k or more out and are gaining. I have never been shot down by this manuver but I am aware that I need to be on my toes for it.
everyone I appreciate the help.
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Even executing a Lead turn does not mean that you can catch your opponent if both aircraft are of the same type and have the same loadout. To catch your opponent in a straight chase means that you overtook them with greater speed. What's really happened is that the Lead turn ends within firing distance, and that airspeed is still great enough to allow for a window of opportunity before the enemy's greater speed creates too large a distance of seperation.
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P.S. The antidote to lead turns is to turn into the bandit. A lot of the time you're below their nose when they're in the lead turn, and on occasion I've caught someone who initiated their lead turn too early for a perfect belly shot.
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Originally posted by LTARstud
I have a question about Co Altitude encounters.
Why is this in Aircraft and Vehicles and not help and advice for newbies?
:(
I say that because I have been shot down many times by the LTAR and as a bad sport need to take every opportunity to get back at them :D
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My guess would be that the con was at a higher alt originally and either had a dar "dot" or dove a bit before he reached icon range. The "hidden E" concept is pretty basic to most of the lone hunters in the dora/typhie/pony/109K. Basically the plan is go vertical but if you ignore them a lowG yoyo of the appropriate flavor will do the trick. I've caught a number of 190's/Tiffies in the A-20 this way as well...it's all about zoom vs sustained speed.
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Does disabling the auto combat trim play in to this equaation? I have squaddies that adjust trim manually. We up a mission in like planes & loadouts and the guys that adjust manual are always cutting throttle to let those of us who do not adjust manually catch up. I welcome any observations you gents may have.