Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: uberslet on January 28, 2008, 09:08:51 PM
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i was reading a book and i noticed it odd how there wer many different roles of the 262 (bomber/fighter jet) and in AH we only have the fighter. who agrees that they should add a bomb or two to the thing?
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Very few 262's got into operation as fighters and even fewer (very, very few) were used as bombers.
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well, i think a 100-300 perk fighter that goes like 600 mph is enough, we dont need a fighter bomber like that
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234 fills the role very well I think.
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You'd have to have severe mental problems to see the 262 and think "Let's have it carry bombs." I'm not even going to say the name or else it will sound like an ad hominem.:noid
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KG54 used them as Jabo's. They had racks' to carry 2-500kg. bombs.
You could give the 262 in the game that option, but who would use it (I'm sure the ord's would hurt your top speed some, probably enough to allow you to get caught...)
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Uncle Adi himself had an obsession with turning the thing into a bomber. I guess he never looked out the window as the Brit and Yank heavies were turning Germany into an ashtray. Good thing for us too. Had Germany steered the 262 project correctly it could have given us a big problem.
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I thought the bomber versions were only on A2's.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
KG54 used them as Jabo's. They had racks' to carry 2-500kg. bombs.
You could give the 262 in the game that option, but who would use it (I'm sure the ord's would hurt your top speed some, probably enough to allow you to get caught...)
i agree wit hthe top speed, cuz wouldnt that create more surface area and drag?
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Originally posted by SpikesX
I thought the bomber versions were only on A2's.
The A2 was the bomber variant, yes.
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The GA version of the 262 was a DOG by all accounts, and the OKWs (Hitler's) instance that the 262 become a blitz bomber set the program back at least 1 year. It was long enough for the 8th airforce to establish air superiority over occupied Europe! If the 262 had been produced as a pure fighter, according to the original time table, the Huge formations of allied bombers would have been decimated, as any AH buff driver will testify to. 4 or 5 262s will wreak havok on a 4 to 5 box bomber group at altitude, esorted or not!
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Originally posted by MajIssue
The GA version of the 262 was a DOG by all accounts, and the OKWs (Hitler's) instance that the 262 become a blitz bomber set the program back at least 1 year.
Where did you get that from? Another one of those WW2 myths. Mtt was already working on racks that could hold bombs or fuel tanks.
One had a better chance surviving in a bomb loaded 262 than in a bomb loaded 190 or 109.
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Originally posted by MajIssue
If the 262 had been produced as a pure fighter, according to the original time table,
...not much would have changed, as the main problem of 262 production & deployment were the engines.
There is a lot of fantasizing going on about whole Geschwaders of 262 tearing apart American bomber units in early 44. But fact is, the engines were simply not ready for mass production. (Besides from a number of other problems a nation faces when trying to press a revolutionary new weapon system into service in times of major crisis)
After the war German industry/military or the public in general went the easy way and blamed Hitler for all & everything that "went wrong"
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Originally posted by Lusche
...not much would have changed, as the main problem of 262 production & deployment were the engines.
There is a lot of fantasizing going on about whole Geschwaders of 262 tearing apart American bomber units in early 44. But fact is, the engines were simply not ready for mass production. (Besides from a number of other problems a nation faces when trying to press a revolutionary new weapon system into service in times of major crisis)
After the war German industry/military or the public in general went the easy way and blamed Hitler for all & everything that "went wrong"
It's true that there were reliability issues based on the life of fan blades made from 1940's alloys in both BMW and Junkers turbine engines. (NOW THE BUT MONKEY)... But the de-centralization of production, coupled with the innovations in production methods and materials mitigated many (not all) of the effects of the allied efforts to disrupt jet engine production. It is well documented that Hitler personally intervened with the objective of making the 262 a "fast" bomber to support the ground componant of the Whermact (Heer). Speer wrote about this internal conflict in his autobiography "Inside the Third Reich". It is entirely possible that without the disastrous (from the Nazi perspective) one year delay in producing the best air superiority fighter of the war, (we're now playing "what if") the introduction of the 262 into the squadron service at the outset of the American/British stratigic bombing offensive could have turned the tide in the air war over Europe... [Then again if cows had wings we'd all need large metal umbrellas! ] While it's true that it would have been difficult to produce tens of thousands of jet powered aircraft, producing enough to cripple the allied bomber offensive was within the production capacity of the Reich and it's occupied "allies", if that goal were dictated from the top levels of the Nazi regime (which it wasn't). That is a HUGE "what if", as Germany was engaged in a battle to the death with the Soviets, and by early 1943, the tide had turned in the East.
Well tought out point Lusche!
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I have forgotten the name of the bridge, but a major battle took place between U.S. and German forces to capture a bridge over the Rhine. The Germans tried desperately to destroy it, even sending in 262s to bomb it. I believe one ground attack 262 was brought down by U.S. AA fire.
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Ludendorff railway bridge at Remagen.
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Its impossible to guess what impact a streamlined 262 production would have had on the war. My best guess is it wouldnt have changed anything, other then prolonging the inevitable. Without question it would have had some impact on the air war.
When the Allies landed in Normandy, and held on, the fate of Germany was sealed. With or without numbers of ME-262s. Dont forget 262 production had another weak link in the chain. That of fuel. Fuel to make them, fuel to fly them.
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Germany was short of diesel fuel?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Germany was short of diesel fuel?
Actually yes. Germany was short off all types of fuel, though you have a valid point: Me 262 fuel was still easier/cheaper to produce than the fuel for prop fighters. (On the other hand, a 262 consumed an awful lot of it...)
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April 22 1945
Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria:
B-4 = 350,000 liters
C-3 = 284,000 liters
J-2 = 1,897,000 liters
That is enough J-2 to fill 903 Me262s.
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interresting quote :
Faced with overwhelming Allied strength and extreme logistical problems, particularly fuel shortages, Me-262 operations during those months were intermittent. An elite unit, "JV-44", was formed up under Adolf Galland, and racked up a number of kills before hostilities ended. Many of these kills were achieved with the new "R4M" 55 millimeter (2.2 inch) folding fin rockets. An Me-262 could carry a total of 24 such weapons on wooden racks, one under each wing, and if fired into a bomber formation the rockets could have a devastating effect on anything they hit. Schwalbes configured to carry the R4M were given the designation "Me-262A-1b".
http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html (http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html)
When do we get those rockets ? :aok
(http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262_12.jpg)
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
April 22 1945
Luftwaffenkommando West reported the following fuel stocks on airfields in Bavaria:
B-4 = 350,000 liters
C-3 = 284,000 liters
J-2 = 1,897,000 liters
That is enough J-2 to fill 903 Me262s.
That's because of herding of reserves, and doesn't reflect the actual fuel situation which is characterized by demand, supply and reserves.
(Also while 900 Me 262 sounds pretty much, consider that fuel is not only required for combat sorties but also for training/instruction, redeployment, test flights).
While high grade aviation fuel production suffered most, the whole fuel production was basically smashed to pieces during 1944.
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(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/german-fuel-production-1.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/Germanfuel-2.jpg)
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And your point is?
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Good posts...
There is no doubt that Germay's fate was sealed, and nothing could have prevented "The Fatherlands" eventual defeat, the Question is at what point was defeat inevitable?
To paraphrase from Kennerly's "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", The greater combanation of economic power will (and has) always defeat(ed) the lesser.
Based on that premise, Germany might have been able to defeat the Soviet Union, and/or Great Britian. When Hitler declared war on the US (to honor the terms of thr tripartie pact) after Pearl Harbor, The fate of Germany was cast in stone. With the Combined resourses available from all of occupied Europe, Germany's production of armaments (and availability of Troops as well) was dwarfed by the US/UK/USSRs capability.
The ME-262 was the most advanced aircraft of the war indisputably, but would not have effected the final outcome. The Red Army would have still been raising the Soviet flag over the Reichstag in May 1945. There was no way the Whermact could have stopped the Red Army after the German 5th Army was encircled and destroyed at Stalingrad.
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Originally posted by MajIssue
Good posts...
There is no doubt that Germay's fate was sealed, and nothing could have prevented "The Fatherlands" eventual defeat, the Question is at what point was defeat inevitable?
According to Hart, it was Dunkirk. The inability to finish off the Brit expeditionary forces sealed their fate.
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Originally posted by MajIssue
Good posts...
There is no doubt that Germay's fate was sealed, and nothing could have prevented "The Fatherlands" eventual defeat, the Question is at what point was defeat inevitable?
When Hitler & the NSDAP took power.
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To have ground superiority, you need air superiority. The Me-262 would have been helpful in that aspect. All it would need to have done is inflict 10% losses on each bomber raid. Something that was accomplished in 1943 by the Luftwaffe. The 8th airforce was not only going through bombers at an incredible rate, but also aircrews.
The Germans had some amazing weapons, but just not nearly enough of them. The Panther tank, the Me262, and Stg44, and the Ar-234 are among the top of the list.
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Originally posted by Lusche
When Hitler & the NSDAP took power.
When Hitler invaded Russia. Up to then, everything else was "working".
Originally posted by indy007
According to Hart, it was Dunkirk. The inability to finish off the Brit expeditionary forces sealed their fate.
maybe... they should have been able to crush the beaches and cut off the retreating forces in a pocket... but they never... problem is, the brits had nothing left by then to come back with... as it was all left in europe.
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Originally posted by Overlag
When Hitler invaded Russia. Up to then, everything else was "working".
But such a thing was inevitable.
A irratinale ideology, based on hatred and perceived national/racial superiority, a ruthless megalomaniac at the top leading a largely obident nation with inferiority complex and a high regard of it's own military traditions.
Was only a matter of time 'till things went out of control.
But that's another discussion not belonging to "Aircraft and Vehicles" I guess ;)
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Its impossible to guess what impact a streamlined 262 production would have had on the war. My best guess is it wouldnt have changed anything, other then prolonging the inevitable. Without question it would have had some impact on the air war.
When the Allies landed in Normandy, and held on, the fate of Germany was sealed. With or without numbers of ME-262s. Dont forget 262 production had another weak link in the chain. That of fuel. Fuel to make them, fuel to fly them.
The 262 could well have been flying in significant numbers late in 43 had Uncle Adolf not decided to persue the bombing version. Had that been possible, it is well possible that the 262 could have had a significant impact against the softening up of defenses during the six months leading up to the invasion. If the allies did not have total air superiority, then reserves could have been moved in the daylight and not been decimated.
All in all, I like to thank Uncle Adolph for all his wonderful decisions. He and the idiot Goring ensured that Germany lost the war.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
The 262 could well have been flying in significant numbers late in 43 had Uncle Adolf not decided to persue the bombing version.
This is not true. There were simply no engines available, and Hitler hadn't any part in this. Only in mid 44 German industry was starting to build engines that did barely work the required number of hours.
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...back to the original point, without debating all of WW2...
I would say "yes" to a Me262 with a bomb load in AH. The players have to spend a lot of perks on them, if they want to do a bomb run, let them. The Me262 does not have a bomb site, and it doesnt carry a huge load (compared to a formation of AH buffs), its hard to hit with a glide bomb at high speeds. The Me262 did see service in that role, albeit limited. I dont think you would see that many players rolling it with bombs, most cant afford it.
The Arado 234 is still the "cheaper" jet bomber, and would still be used in the same #s, as the perks spent are "bomber perks".
In the update, I would have the Fighter-Bomber version as 225 perks, with the fighter version at 200, to represent the fact it was a rarer type.
In any event you would not see a lot of them in the MA.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
The 262 could well have been flying in significant numbers late in 43 had Uncle Adolf not decided to persue the bombing version. Had that been possible, it is well possible that the 262 could have had a significant impact against the softening up of defenses during the six months leading up to the invasion. If the allies did not have total air superiority, then reserves could have been moved in the daylight and not been decimated.
All in all, I like to thank Uncle Adolph for all his wonderful decisions. He and the idiot Goring ensured that Germany lost the war.
More blame can be put on Willy than Hitler as Willy had Protokoll Nr. 15 overruled by Hitler. Protokoll Nr. 15 was to have had 100 Me262s produced by year end 1943.
If produced, these a/c would have been a disaster as the bugs were still being worked out of the V a/c.
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Ive avoided reigniting this thread along historical lines because I dont want to veer it away from "aircraft and vehicles" which is the forum rooms purpose. But its a good example of why we need a "WW-ll History" room in this forum. Many, if not most, have an interest in the history behind the game as well as the game itself. I think a WW-ll history room would be a great addition.
And yes, Ive asked for it in the wishlist room.
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Originally posted by Lusche
This is not true. There were simply no engines available, and Hitler hadn't any part in this. Only in mid 44 German industry was starting to build engines that did barely work the required number of hours.
It is stated that they could well have had approximately 100+ but there were possible issues regarding some quirks.