Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 1Boner on January 29, 2008, 12:40:00 PM
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Just curious what the dominant planes are in the EW and MW arena?
Are they just the perked planes, or are there unperked birds that you feel should be perked and aren't.
I just figure there must be planes that you see alot of because of there speed, firepower, etc.
Thanks,
Boner
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EW? Hurricane IIC.
Any plane with such a dominance in LW would have been perked long ago. In EW, it hasn't even ENY 5.
Edit:
Tour 95, EW arena:
All kills by planes: 4161. Hurri IIC had 1401 of them (34%!). K/D 1.97!
Yet the horde can still fly it because of ENY 10.
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I have not encountered a dominat airplane in the MW. shuff in the P38 is one I try to avoid and slapshot in F6F. Those guys will shoot me down if I give them half a chance.
One thing that has dominated my experience in the MW as of late has been Guido77 who consistently warps so bad its seven shades past pathetic. There are a few other guys that warp very predictably but none as bad as guido77.
edit: Hurrc2 dont bother me in MW, those guys are usualy of intermediate skill and can be avoided pretty easily.
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If you see a IIC a HO is in your future. :aok
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I still think the handling of the Hurricane and Bf110 are overmodeled in AH. I don't have proof, but my gut feeling is that if the handling in AH is accurate then the Bf109 and Spitfire would have been reduced to secondline status as development focused on the Huricanes and Bf110s.
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Argh...I thought this was a thread about the Giant squid that used to be in the very center of the Pizza map in AHI :lol
To tell you the truth, Karnak, the thing is, People want to play the HurriIIC's game as it is in AH- Furballs' at less than 10k.
In real life, alot of Spit, 109, FW, P-51,47,38 fights' were higher-15, 20k. In the ETO, especially later in the war, they were centered around Buff formations' that flew as high as 30k. Take the AH HurriIIc up to 20k, and dogfight a Spit IX or an Me-109. The fight changes dramatically.
For that matter, if you want a giggle, challenge someone in the LW who usually flies nothing but LA-7's to a duel at one of the High-alt fields (15k). Take the fight up high, and watch what happens to the LA-7.
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The 110, is a dump-truck, as far as handling. Over-modeled, I think not. As for the Hurricane, It was prized for its stability as a gun platform. The thing is on rails until you get to within a razors breadth of a stall. Over-modeled, maybe, but not by much.
The reason you see the Hurricane, and 110's at the top of the EW and MW choice lists is simple, FIREPOWER. The thumb twitchers want to dispatch their foes quick, because they have little ACM skill. 95% of the time they couldn't last over 3 turns in an ACM engagement, so they HO for all their worth and hope their cannons will kill you before you kill them.
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Iron_Cross,
The Bf110 out rolls and out turns the Bf109. It out rolls and nearly out turns the Spitfire. It is about as fast as either.
The Hurricane should be more stable, but should it roll that much better than the Spit and 109? It has a 42ft wingspan to the Spit's 36ft and 109's 32ft. It has cloth ailerons just like the Spit I. Yet it suffers almost no roll penalty for speed.
As I said, I don't have proof, but these things just do not match the respective descriptions of WWII pilots who flew both the Spit and Hurri such a Stanford Tuck. The Spit, which was supposedly so responsive like wearing a fighter is a unresponsive brick in AH whereas the Hurri which usually is only praised for being a stable gun platform is an absolute delight to fly.
Something just seems off to me. But I have no proof.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Iron_Cross,
The Bf110 out rolls and out turns the Bf109. It out rolls and nearly out turns the Spitfire. It is about as fast as either.
Do you think about what your typing before you type it? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Motherland
Do you think about what your typing before you type it? :rolleyes:
Yes. Do you?
And I am not talking about a Bf110G-2 compared to a Bf109K-4 compared to a Spitfire Mk XVI compared to a Hurricane Mk IIC.
I am talking about the respective fighters before we get the German and British decision to focus development on the Bf109 and Spitfire respectively. I am talking about the Bf110C-4b compared to the Bf109E-4 compared to the Spitfire Mk Ia compared to the Hurricane Mk I. The Hurricane Mk IIC compared to the Spitfire Mk Vb is also in question.
Stanford Tuck commanded 257 Squadron in 1940/41, flying Hurricane Mk Is and then Mk IICs. When he was moved to command a three squadron wing in 1941 he was very happy to be back in Spitfires, specifically he was switching from Hurricane Mk IICs to Spitfire Mk Vbs, exactly the two we have in AH. In AH is the Spit Vb significantly better than the Hurri IIC? Is it better at all?
EDIT:
What do you think a Bf110 would perform like with the DB605 of the Bf109G-14 or K-4? How about a Hurricane powered by a Merlin 66, 266 or Griffon 65?
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Originally posted by Karnak
I am talking about the respective fighters before we get the German and British decision to focus development on the Bf109 and Spitfire respectively. I am talking about the Bf110C-4b compared to the Bf109E-4 compared to the Spitfire Mk Ia compared to the Hurricane Mk I. The Hurricane Mk IIC compared to the Spitfire Mk Vb is also in question.
When you word something like you did, you made it read like you were comparing the 110 to the 109 and the Spitfire. there was no clue at all in that sentence that vs. the Spit you were talking about the Hurricane.
The 110 does not outturn or outroll the 109E (though they are very close in roll rate). The Emil is faster up to about 17k and has a better climb rate.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Take the AH HurriIIc up to 20k, and dogfight a Spit IX or an Me-109. The fight changes dramatically.
For that matter, if you want a giggle, challenge someone in the LW who usually flies nothing but LA-7's to a duel at one of the High-alt fields (15k). Take the fight up high, and watch what happens to the LA-7.
The other day I was buff hunting and encountered a bish hurricane at 17k in the LWA. I turned a few circles around him with my 190D just to see what would happen. It got me laughing so hard I was almost blind sided by a 51D! :lol
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Motherland,
In ever BoB scenrio and setup we ever do in AH, the Bf110 and Hurricane demolish the Spitfire and Bf109's K/D ratios.
Originally posted by Jappa52
The other day I was buff hunting and encountered a bish hurricane at 17k in the LWA. I turned a few circles around him with my 190D just to see what would happen. It got me laughing so hard I was almost blind sided by a 51D! :lol
So? You are ignoring what I am talking about. It wouldn't go nearly so easy for you if you replaced the Hurri's Merlin XX with a Merlin 61 or 70, or with a Griffon 65.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Motherland,
In ever BoB scenrio and setup we ever do in AH, the Bf110 and Hurricane demolish the Spitfire and Bf109's K/D ratios.
That would be for another reason then for roll rate and turn then. The 110 cannot do either better than the 109E.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Motherland,
In ever BoB scenrio and setup we ever do in AH, the Bf110 and Hurricane demolish the Spitfire and Bf109's K/D ratios.
So? You are ignoring what I am talking about. It wouldn't go nearly so easy for you if you replaced the Hurri's Merlin XX with a Merlin 61 or 70, or with a Griffon 65.
:huh
...I thought the point of this was the aircraft as modeled in RL and in AH, not some fantasy paper-ship. He wasn't ignoring what you were talking about; He was giving an example of what I myself had pointed out earlier, e.g. That alt changes' things drastically. Did Stanford Tuck spend his whole RAF career in -5k furball's with Planes' of every nation in the conflict attacking him? I think not. I'm fairly sure that he lasted as long as he did by keeping his aircraft in it's performance envelope-which tended to be higher than what we fly in AH, I believe.
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Originally posted by Karnak
So? You are ignoring what I am talking about. It wouldn't go nearly so easy for you if you replaced the Hurri's Merlin XX with a Merlin 61 or 70, or with a Griffon 65.
Hey don’t get bent out of shape. I was responding to Frodes statement about flying a hurricane or LA7 at those altitudes. You really don’t see too many hurricanes at 17k anyway and I thought it was something to smile about.
Have a nice day : )
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
:huh
...I thought the point of this was the aircraft as modeled in RL and in AH, not some fantasy paper-ship. He wasn't ignoring what you were talking about; He was giving an example of what I myself had pointed out earlier, e.g. That alt changes' things drastically. Did Stanford Tuck spend his whole RAF career in -5k furball's with Planes' of every nation in the conflict attacking him? I think not. I'm fairly sure that he lasted as long as he did by keeping his aircraft in it's performance envelope-which tended to be higher than what we fly in AH, I believe.
Still ignoring what I am talking about.
Arguing with people who don't understand what makes a fighter perform the way it does is pointless.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Still ignoring what I am talking about.
Arguing with people who don't understand what makes a fighter perform the way it does is pointless.
I cant speak for British planes, as I dont fly them nor know anything about the real history of them. But I would like to know what specifically you are talking about.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I still think the handling of the Hurricane and Bf110 are overmodeled in AH. I don't have proof, but my gut feeling is that if the handling in AH is accurate then the Bf109 and Spitfire would have been reduced to secondline status as development focused on the Huricanes and Bf110s.
the hurricain was a truly awsome plane but it had a low speed and bad dive . It also was not so good in the thin air at alt. over say 20K . Low down it was fantastic. it was reduced to air to ground duties as it was a very stable gun platform compared to the spit. It's roll rate was good due to slightly larger ailerons on the wing.
wing load moved more to the inner struts not out on the tips like the spitfires. the wing airframe was also lighter made out of wood with fabric not metal skin like the spitfire.
I've read many accounts of hurricains out turnning and wining scissor fights with 109's as well as taking huge punnishment from enemy fighters. Even seen pics from my grandads squadron of a damaged hurri that came back with a 1 meter diamitor hole in the right wing. (the pilot said it still flew like a dream)
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Originally posted by Motherland
I cant speak for British planes, as I dont fly them nor know anything about the real history of them. But I would like to know what specifically you are talking about.
Up a 110-c and be amazed at what it can do. Best is to just see for yourself.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Up a 110-c and be amazed at what it can do. Best is to just see for yourself.
I've flown the 110C before. Its a large, slow, lumbering peice of junk with a poor armament for the LW arenas. The only spot where it shines there is in turn radius.
In EW, I have only one experience, in an FSO in which JG11 was assigned 110C's. We were destroyed.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Still ignoring what I am talking about.
Arguing with people who don't understand what makes a fighter perform the way it does is pointless.
I don't think you're realy trying to read and understand our posts, Karnak.
Furthermore, making the assumption that we do not know what makes' a fighter perform(and stating so bluntly) is taken as a flame-attempt.
I might add, you posted this:
In ever BoB scenrio and setup we ever do in AH, the Bf110 and Hurricane demolish the Spitfire and Bf109's K/D ratios.
Which you should know, does not indicate anything about how the roll or turn rate of any of the planes' you listed is modeled correctly or not.
You should know that there are too many variables(Pilot ability, numbers, tactics) that affect that particular number. K/D means' squat when discussing aircraft Flight model.
Furthermore, you started to discuss why the Hurri and 110 weren't slated for further developement, and the Spitfire and 109 were. Again, there are many factors' in that decision, other than A/C flight characteristics, that influence those choices(Engine availability, overall cost, tactical suitability, politics, etc.)
And as for the question as to whether or not the Hurri and 110 outturn the Spit and 109, at this point we should refer to some of WideWing's data, to validate that...rather than our 'seat of the pants' feeling, or fanboi perspectives'.
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here here
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I like flying the Hurri llc even more then I like flying the spit. Its just a nice handling aircraft and it can really spit out some hell.
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Here is what I am talking about. Compare the Huricane Mk I and Spitfire Mk I performancewise. Unlike later Spits and Hurris they have exactly the same engine.
The Spitfire Mk Vb and Hurricane Mk IIC have similar engines, so they are not a bad comparison.
The Bf109E-4 and Bf110C-4b have similar engines too.
That is why they are the ones I am talking about. A Huricane Mk anything at 17,000ft is going to be at a massive disadvantage against a P-51B or D or a Spitfire with a two stage supercharger such as a Mk VIII, IX, XIV or XVI because the Hurri only has a single stage engine, so pointing that out is irrelevant to my point.
My point is, that comparing the four aircraft in question when they were powered by identical or similar engines, as modeled in AH, the Spitfire and Bf109 do not come out matching the historical comments. And in fact the comments often seem completely backwards. Go fly a Hurricane Mk I and then a Spitfire Mk I, then try to sync your perceptions with the pilot comments about the Spitfire's responsiveness compared to the Hurricane's. They will seem to have gotten the names of the fighters reversed.
So, why would the Spitfire be delvoped with better engines than the Hurricane if the Hurricane was so superior to the Spitfire, only losing a bit of speed compared to the Spitfire? Why not put a Merlin 61 in a Hurricane? Why relegate it to ground attack?
Now, I am not suggesting AH model Hurricanes with engines they never had, I am expressing my skeptisim that either the Hurri was that responsive or that the Spit was that unresponsive.
Look at which fighter is the monster of EW? The Hurricane Mk IIC, which in reality was being channeled towards ground attack while the superior Spitfire Mk Vb was taking on the role of the RAF's premier fighter.
The Bf109E-v vs Bf110C-4b is a similar issue.
Furthermore, you started to discuss why the Hurri and 110 weren't slated for further developement, and the Spitfire and 109 were. Again, there are many factors' in that decision, other than A/C flight characteristics, that influence those choices(Engine availability, overall cost, tactical suitability, politics, etc.)
The Hurricane was cheaper than the Spitfire, used the same engine and was easier to build.
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the HOicaine2C is why I dont fly the EW......any. If I wanted to get HO'd by hurri's Id just stay in late war!
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Originally posted by Karnak
Motherland,
In ever BoB scenrio and setup we ever do in AH, the Bf110 and Hurricane demolish the Spitfire and Bf109's K/D ratios.
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Whilst I might agree with your general point re how an apparrantly out classed and almost redundant 110 in RL becomes a very proficient tool in AH...........
I am sure you know the Hurricane was on par with the Spit during BoB .... and indeed suffers in scenarios because we pit it against the quite fast Ju88 in its anti bomber role.
as for AH BoB scenarios the 110 does not perform quite as dominently as you suggest above. (Although it does perform better than its RL predesessor)
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I personally think the Hurricane I as modelled in the game is better than the Spit I we have in the game. The Spit I just handles sluggishly compared to the Hurricane I.
Regarding turn radius - the best turn radius of the Bf110C4 was slightly smaller than that of the 109E4 IIRC. I know I've seen charts that showed them as being nearly identical, with the 110 having a slight edge. I'm not sure if this was true only for the best possible turning circle, or if it was across the board.
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The Hurri got more kills for a number of reasons in reality. the 70/30 split in numbers, the tasks assigned being significant contributors. Also bombers in the BoB tended to fly at 180-200mph, not 280mph as in AH BoB settings.
As far as loss rates, I don't know if the Spit or Hurri had a higher loss rate.
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David Southwood gave a speech to the Flight Test Group of the Royal Aeronautical Society in 2004.
His comments:
"One of the most striking characteristics for a pilot who is familiar with modern fighters is the relatively poor roll performance...A 1 G 360 degree full stick roll in a clipped wing Spitfire IX at 250 KIAS and 5000ft takes 3 seconds. However, the same manoever in the Hurricane at 200 KIAS takes 6 seconds."
Wolfala and I did some testing in the TA using a Hurri I and Hurri IIC, using the exact same performance parameters and, after about 10 tests, showed an average of 4-4.5 seconds to perform a 360 degree roll in either of the two Hurricanes. We did not test the Spit 16 to see if matched the 3 second speed quoted by Southwood. I have no idea to the accuracy of Southwood's data other than to say that he states in the speech, they were his observations from his own personal test flights in those planes. It could be annecdotal, but if accurate, it certainly hints at a discrepancy.
Perhaps this could illuminate Karnak's argument, at least with respect to the comparison between the Spit and Hurricane in the game.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Argh...I thought this was a thread about the Giant squid that used to be in the very center of the Pizza map in AHI :lol
So did I.:lol
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Originally posted by Motherland
I've flown the 110C before. Its a large, slow, lumbering peice of junk with a poor armament for the LW arenas. The only spot where it shines there is in turn radius.
In EW, I have only one experience, in an FSO in which JG11 was assigned 110C's. We were destroyed.
oh lord. ok first, you're totally wrong.
second, you seem to have no idea what you're talking about...
we are talking about early war rides here, and battle of britain matchups. in real life the 110 was really just a target, and in some cases were actually given fighter escorts! the late war arena has absolutely nothing to do with this.
compared to our 109e and spit 1, the 110 is very fast, has an insane turn ability (it's a flipping UFO. in BoB scenarios, the 110 is the most feared plane by most allied pilots). and it's armament is very powerful too.
we are NOT talking about how it performs in the LWA. we are talking about how in real life it performed nothing like it does in AH, and how in early war matchups it's more than a match for the spits, and it outturns the 109e.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
David Southwood gave a speech to the Flight Test Group of the Royal Aeronautical Society in 2004.
His comments:
"One of the most striking characteristics for a pilot who is familiar with modern fighters is the relatively poor roll performance...A 1 G 360 degree full stick roll in a clipped wing Spitfire IX at 250 KIAS and 5000ft takes 3 seconds. However, the same manoever in the Hurricane at 200 KIAS takes 6 seconds."
Wolfala and I did some testing in the TA using a Hurri I and Hurri IIC, using the exact same performance parameters and, after about 10 tests, showed an average of 4-4.5 seconds to perform a 360 degree roll in either of the two Hurricanes. We did not test the Spit 16 to see if matched the 3 second speed quoted by Southwood. I have no idea to the accuracy of Southwood's data other than to say that he states in the speech, they were his observations from his own personal test flights in those planes. It could be annecdotal, but if accurate, it certainly hints at a discrepancy.
Perhaps this could illuminate Karnak's argument, at least with respect to the comparison between the Spit and Hurricane in the game.
That is very much what I am talking about. The Hurri is just too agile to match historical accounts. It isn't that it turns to tight, everything I have read said it turned tighter than the Bf109 or Spitfire. It is more that it seems to roll to fast, not be affected much by high speed and have too quick an instantaneous turn rate.
The Spitfire, praised over and over by pilots who flew both. as being so responsive, "you thought about it and it did it" is in AH a plodding draft horse that has to be muscled into cooperation compared to the agile, light Hurricane that got praise for being a stable gun platform and tough.
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seems to me your all still forgeting that these planes were not flown on the deck in real life like they are in ah (under 10000 feet).
now as for the original question
In mid war the fm-2 is probably more dominant than it should be but the spits do alot of work in there and get alot of kills along with the hurri,s!
P-38's in midwar are very good as well, not because it is good but the sticks that fly it there are very good, i used to love to fly the 38 but dont in mid very often, it seems to draw the attention of those who know how to use it best and i always end up with one of them on my six!
my favorite is the FM-2!
The best fighter in mid in my opinion is the F6F!
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Originally posted by WWhiskey
seems to me your all still forgeting that these planes were not flown on the deck in real life like they are in ah (under 10000 feet).
Yes they were and what does that have to do with anything?
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Argh...I thought this was a thread about the Giant squid that used to be in the very center of the Pizza map in AHI :lol
Yeah me too, well that and Rook women.:p Use to be a spaceship on one of the maps.
You know I tried to kill that squid several times but it's a lot like Cloverfield.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Yes they were and what does that have to do with anything?
I had edited my remarks and didnt say every thing i was going to say about it but i will try to explain
example: p-47-n fastest plane n the game at 30,000 feet, how often do you fly it there? not very! is it as good at 10,000 feet or below? NO! now i might be mistakin about that a little but it is a good example of what you think and what is reality! Question: are you flying the plane you think is the best in A.H.were it is the best in real life? probably not!
Some one who wasnt paying attention might go get killed in the jug now and blame me cause i said it was the fastest plane in the game or blame hightek because it wasnt as good in A.H. as i said i was supposed to be! pilot ability in this game is were the answer lies! in here alot of the planes dont preform like we want them to but if you have read up on those planes you might find that the tactics in this game dont apply as in real life example:A-20 what a good fighter it is in this game, just go see cobia too find out how good it is, yet i dont think it is overmodeled just misunderstood!
then again these are just my opinions so go think what you want, i didnt mean to attack your obvioulsy superior abilty to figure this stuff out!:aok
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I like pizza.
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WWhiskey,
Yes, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my arguements.
The thing that most determines relative performance at altitude is the engine, and the Spitfire Mk I and Hurricane Mk I have exactly the same engine.
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Karnak, you seem to forget that performance at 5k, does not equal performance at 20k. Pilots impressions of performance are of fighting at 20k where the Hurricane and 110-C have seriously degraded performance. You are trying to match up pilots impressions of fighting and flying at 20k with your own impressions of fighting and flying at 5k. You are comparing apples to oranges my friend, and for that you don't get a cookie.
EDIT:
Engine is only part of the equation Karnak, there is also the wing and control surfaces to consider, weight is also part of it. Again with the apples and oranges. Man you are getting some serious fiber, you must be really regular.
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So, your arguement is that the Hurricane should outperform the Spitfire in all ways short of top speed at all altitudes because....?
You make no sense.
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Soooooo anyway
It would seem that the Hurri and the 110 are the super dooper uberest planes in the line-up in the EW and MW.
At least those seem to be the main objects of contention here.
Would those planes fall into the same category of disdain as the La7-Spixteen-Niki-P-51d and Typhoon, do in the LW arenas?
IE are they considered "dweeb" rides?
Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, as I NEVER fly in those arenas.
Not sure why.
But I intend on spending alot more time there soon to explore the other planes in the game without being dessimated by the other LW planes.
Thanks Guys,
Boner
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A guy up in a Hurri I is flying it for the challenge. A guy up in a Hurri IIc is flying it for the cannons.
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Originally posted by Motherland
I've flown the 110C before. Its a large, slow, lumbering peice of junk with a poor armament for the LW arenas. The only spot where it shines there is in turn radius.
In EW, I have only one experience, in an FSO in which JG11 was assigned 110C's. We were destroyed.
How is 2 20mm and 4 7.9mm poor in LW? Especially considering they're
centerline mounted?:rolleyes:
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I'm surprised the Mossie in mid war is not viewed as a beast. It holds its own in LW and any time I fly it in MW I only fear the Spit 9.
It's been a while since I flew in there though.